Anihilationism

[Butch5]

Really?

1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
1Cor 15:48; As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Cor 15:49; Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Cor 15:50; Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

John 3:6; "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

2Cor 5:1; For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Cor 5:2; For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
2Cor 5:3; inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2Cor 5:4; For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

Yeah, really. Please explain what it is you believe these passages are saying. Please show where Scripture teaches that man is anything other than a physical being.

 

[B-A-C]

Rom 8:6; For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Rom 8:7; because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Rom 8:8; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9; However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Gal 5:17; For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

1Pet 3:18; For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

2Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

 

[PloughBoy]

I didn't say Christian Dualism. I said Dualism. Dualism as it pertains to man is the idea that man is more than just a physical being, It's the idea that the "real man" is immaterial and able to live apart from the body, that the body is only a temporary dwelling. However, that's not what the Scriptures teach. They teach that man is from the dust of the ground with the breath of God giving him life. In this, man cannot live apart from the body. You're statement was that Lazarus was sleeping and that Jesus put him back into his body. That indicates that the "real man" wasn't the body. According to the Scriptures the "real man" is the body.

I'm intrigued as to how you use a historical hermeneutic and came to Reformed Theology. It seems to me the two would clash. I use a grammatical historical hermeneutic. The historical evidence doesn't support Calvinism.

I dis-agree. Jesus said He was asleep. not me. Absent from the Body, Present with the Lord. A new body we shall get. A glorified body. for only some of us has a Second Adam living in us. There is a lot of things going on, that the Natural man knows nothing about neither can they understand! For it is Hidden from them, And it cannot be understood by the Natural mind, no matter how many prayers they might pray, or how many time they may sing "Oh how I love Jesus" because He 1st love me" so our language is strange and "we are not the same creatures that came out of our Mother's womb! We are Different from the people of this world. We are not like them! We have been change and a waiting for Our New bodies"!
Do you understand that? We are ready to take this corruption body off! And put on the incorruptible Body! "In the Twinkling of an eye"
You will see!

you said:
I'm intrigued as to how you use a historical hermeneutic and came to Reformed Theology. It seems to me the two would clash. I use a grammatical historical hermeneutic. The historical evidence doesn't support Calvinism. {i did not say that, how i came to reformed theology in that fashion} I see you do not understand "Biblical terminology" which is universal.

OK, i am not trying to prove nothing to you! Because when that "Trumpet Sound" that Horn blow! You are not going to care what i am! a Calvinist, a Dualist, a Luther or Roman Catholic. You are going to be thinking about your own "Hiney" just like me! For that gate is narrow!
Now you keep on playing with words. You are going to be late! And that ship is not going to wait for you! That "Philosophical thought" going to make in late. Don't you know That Theology was the queen of all sciences and Philosophy was her hand maiden"! And it has not change! God rules Supreme! and has Revealed Himself to the "Common man" through Jesus Christ our Lord" and confounded "The wisdom of the wise"!~ That even a mere ploughboy can know more about GOD than the "POPE in Rome" or the Brain Surgeon with the Scalpel in his hand. Even the weakess of My brothers and sisters in Christ our LORD, for we are ONE!

 

[Butch5]

Rom 8:6; For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Rom 8:7; because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Rom 8:8; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9; However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Gal 5:17; For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

1Pet 3:18; For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

2Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

Which of these says that man is an immarterial being and can live apart from the body? It seems to me you're reading your theology into these passages. That's the whole point I've been making in this thread. It's the reason translators have translated aion as everlasting.

 

[PloughBoy]

Yeah, really. Please explain what it is you believe these passages are saying. Please show where Scripture teaches that man is anything other than a physical being.

Bill might thinK it is a escape clause, That's right Bill , ask questions! That is right, drill us hard. I don;t blame Bill! Supposed death is a Lake of Fire and Brimstone. Who in their right mind would take a chance. I know Bill in his life time has said "oops" too! I can see Bill up there now with us saying, at the ceremony table, talking ,,wow, I am so glad I talk to you all! That was a close call.

 

[Butch5]

I dis-agree. Jesus said He was asleep. not me. Absent from the Body, Present with the Lord. A new body we shall get. A glorified body. for only some of us has a Second Adam living in us. There is a lot of things going on, that the Natural man knows nothing about neither can they understand! For it is Hidden from them, And it cannot be understood by the Natural mind, no matter how many prayers they might pray, or how many time they may sing "Oh how I love Jesus" because He 1st love me" so our language is strange and "we are not the same creatures that came out of our Mother's womb! We are Different from the people of this world. We are not like them! We have been change and a waiting for Our New bodies"!
Do you understand that? We are ready to take this corruption body off! And put on the incorruptible Body! "In the Twinkling of an eye"
You will see!

you said:
I'm intrigued as to how you use a historical hermeneutic and came to Reformed Theology. It seems to me the two would clash. I use a grammatical historical hermeneutic. The historical evidence doesn't support Calvinism. {i did not say that, how i came to reformed theology in that fashion} I see you do not understand "Biblical terminology" which is universal.

OK, i am not trying to prove nothing to you! Because when that "Trumpet Sound" that Horn blow! You are not going to care what i am! a Calvinist, a Dualist, a Luther or Roman Catholic. You are going to be thinking about your own "Hiney" just like me! For that gate is narrow!
Now you keep on playing with words. You are going to be late! And that ship is not going to wait for you! That "Philosophical thought" going to make in late. Don't you know That Theology was the queen of all sciences and Philosophy was her hand maiden"! And it has not change! God rules Supreme! and has Revealed Himself to the "Common man" through Jesus Christ our Lord" and confounded "The wisdom of the wise"!~ That even a mere ploughboy can know more about GOD than the "POPE in Rome" or the Brain Surgeon with the Scalpel in his hand. Even the weakess of My brothers and sisters in Christ our LORD, for we are ONE!

You can disagree, that doesn't change anything. The absent from the body passage doesn't say what you think it says. Do you believe in Reincarnation? That's what you're espousing. Jesus didn't get a new body, He was raised in the body that was on the cross. It is said that believers likewise will be raised from the dead. Resurrection means the body is raised. A new body would be reincarnation, not resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

Moses recorded the creation of man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Here we have the creation of man. We have the body, spirit, and soul. We see that the body consists of the dust of the ground. That is the man. The passages reads, "God formed the man of the dust of the ground". That's what a man is. Then we see that God breathed the breath of life into man. This breath or spirit (same word) of life is something of God Himself. We see it's not man because it came out of God. When these two combined the man, body, became a living soul. So, when God breathed His breath or spirit into man there was a transformation that took place, the man became a living soul. So, right here in this passage we have all three mentioned, body, soul, and spirit. The only spirit we see in man is that of God, it's not man. The man is of the dust. We're told in Scripture that when a man dies the breath or spirit returns to God. Again, this is something of God, it's not man. When the breath or spirit leaves, the soul no longer exists as it's components have separated. Then the man, body, returns to the dust.

Is this just man's reasoning or is it Biblical? We can look and see what God has to say. He said to Adam,

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

You are dust. That's pretty simple. The word "you" denotes person. Adam was dust.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen. 6:3 KJV)

Here God states plainly that man is flesh. He didn't say man is a spirit and/or soul that lives in flesh. He said that man IS flesh. He's not a spirit.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Well I know one thing, There is nothing earthly about it or worldly, or a "finite mind" can perceive! On your best day! those words are "Anthropormorphic" words. Everybody's description cannot describe eternity! Like we know what we are talking about. if you haven't been there, in the unseen place! i am quite sure we would not know what to call it if we saw it! LOL! Now tell me this is not the truth. We don't know what eternity is, or what GOD even look like!

now if you know, tell us what eternity looks like and GOD the FATHER, what color is His Hair and does HE has teeth, and if He do, what does HE use them for?

Dear Brother,
It seems no one wants to play with you.
Best to leave well enough alone....for the time being
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[PloughBoy]

Moses recorded the creation of man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Here we have the creation of man. We have the body, spirit, and soul. We see that the body consists of the dust of the ground. That is the man. The passages reads, "God formed the man of the dust of the ground". That's what a man is. Then we see that God breathed the breath of life into man. This breath or spirit (same word) of life is something of God Himself. We see it's not man because it came out of God. When these two combined the man, body, became a living soul. So, when God breathed His breath or spirit into man there was a transformation that took place, the man became a living soul. So, right here in this passage we have all three mentioned, body, soul, and spirit. The only spirit we see in man is that of God, it's not man. The man is of the dust. We're told in Scripture that when a man dies the breath or spirit returns to God. Again, this is something of God, it's not man. When the breath or spirit leaves, the soul no longer exists as it's components have separated. Then the man, body, returns to the dust.

Is this just man's reasoning or is it Biblical? We can look and see what God has to say. He said to Adam,

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

You are dust. That's pretty simple. The word "you" denotes person. Adam was dust.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen. 6:3 KJV)

Here God states plainly that man is flesh. He didn't say man is a spirit and/or soul that lives in flesh. He said that man IS flesh. He's not a spirit.

you cannot understand what we understand for we have been "Born of the Spirt", "Born of GOD" you are flesh. we are "spirit' a new creation, you are earthly we are "Heavenly creatures" and trap in a earthly body. The earthly creature cannot understand the Heavenly creature. For it is impossible for you to do so.

 

[PloughBoy]

Dear Brother,
It seems no one wants to play with you.
Best to leave well enough alone....for the time being
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

got you

 

[Br. Bear]

@Butch5
Greetings,

Hi Br. Bear,

There is no consensus that I'm aware of that says the translation is wrong. It is Scripture and logic that show us that the translation is wrong. There are many passages that speak of aion as a finite period of time. If it is finite it logically can't be infinite. There are passages in which Jesus and the apostles speak of the end of the aion. Again, if it ends it can't be eternal. I believe a lot of the problem is that people use their theological beliefs to interpret Scripture. This includes theologians and church leaders. The protestants of today came out of the Roman Catholic Church. As we can see the RCC changed quite a bit of the teachings of the original faith. There is nothing in the Scriptures about praying to the saints. There is nothing about Purgatory. There is nothing about praying to Mary, and the list goes on. The Reformers got rid of these doctrines, however, they didn't get rid of everything, The point is that things have changed. This is because people interpret Scripture based on what they believe.

Before we had the New Testament or the Greek Old Testament, we had the Hebrew Scriptures. They were written to people with a Hebrew mindset and by people with a Hebrew mindset. In the Hebrew mind time and distance were related. As can be seen in the link I posted, the "olam" was what one could see. As one's view got more distant it also got less clear. One could only see what was to the horizon and not beyond. This also applied to time. One could see what was today and maybe tomorrow, but months or years were beyond one's sight. They were out of sight. That is the olam. When the Hebrew Scriptures were translated by Jewish Scholars into Greek, Greek didn't an olam. So, they had to come up with a way to convey that idea. They chose the word aion, an age. So when we see the word aion in the Greek Old Testament it is conveying this concept of the olam. It's not portraying a concept of eternity. When the New Testament came along the apostles were all Hebrews. They had a Hebrew mindset. They understood the Old Testament Scriptures from that mindset. So when they write the New Testament that is the mindset they are coming from. There are many passages in the New Testament that come from the Old. It seems many Christians separate the two, but there are not separate. One is a continuation of the other. So, logically we would expect the apostles to follow this same concept of the olam when using aion. If we compare the two testaments we can see that this is just what they've done.

Fast forward a few decades and now it's not primarily Jews who are being saved, but Gentiles. Greek Gentiles. These Greek Gentiles who are becoming Christians don't have a Hebrew mindset, they have a Greek one. So, naturally, they're going to understand the Scriptures with a Greek mindset and not a Hebrew one. The Greeks believe in an immortal soul, that the soul never died. This was the lens through which they filtered the Scriptures. We see Paul addressing this in his letters to the Corinthians. Some of them were denying the Resurrection. In the Greek mind the body was the prison of the soul and the goal was to escape it. They wouldn't have any interest in a Resurrection that would put their soul back into a body. This is why Paul said the Gospel is foolishness to the Greeks. So, it's with this Greek mindset that these Christians began to interpret the Scriptures. They were filtering the Scriptures through this belief system. In the Western world today we are primarily of a Greek mindset. Thus we still filter the Scriptures through this Greek way of thinking. It's only when we set this way of thinking aside and try to embrace the Hebrew mindset that we really begin to see what the Scriptures are saying. As long as we have this Greek mindset we will continue to have problems such as translations that say the priesthood of Aaron is everlasting when Paul states plainly that it was changed. As long as we have this Greek mindset we'll struggle with aion as everlasting when Jesus plainly said it ends.

In the end, the problem is that people translate the Scriptures based on what they already believe. All of these translators were Christians before they began to translate. Many, if not most, have attended seminary and have been "taught" what the Bible says. If they all go to seminary and are all taught the same things wouldn't we expect their commentaries and dictionaries to all say the same thing? It seems the only logical conclusion. That's why looking at 5 lexicons that all the same thing and then concluding that it must be so, doesn't help. Lexicon after lexicon says that aion means everlasting and yet Jesus said it ends. In the end I think Jesus had a much better understanding of the word aion than any lexicographer today.

thank you for your reply.
I am in the process of replying back to you but have been sidetracked with other matters.

It is a difficult topic for all to agree on. An important one, however.

can i leave with one thought... have you looked at the word(s) used for 'never' ? Can challenge some of what thus far is presented as final fact, either way.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

@complete

Greetings,

Hello there,

When I realised that the word Hell was a middle English word meaning to hide away, chosen by the translators to best translate Sheol, Hades, Tartaroo and Gehenna as the place of the dead, I searched the Scriptures for each of it's usages, within their contexts, with that meaning in mind. I also looking up the alternative translations of Sheol, Hades and Gehenna (Tartaroo having only one usage) and in doing so became thoroughly acquainted with the way the Holy Spirit used those words. This knowledge lifted me out of man's interpretation and put my feet solidly onto the firm ground of Scriptural usage. For which I praise God!

The same thing applies to the state of the dead, and the truth concerning the soul of man. I found that the soul is not immortal, and that it has no destination but the grave at the death of the body, that only the breath of life (or spirit) returns to God Who gave it. Without that breath of life man is no longer a living soul. There is no life apart from resurrection.

Only of the believing dead is it said that they 'sleep in Christ' for only they have the hope of resurrection life in Christ Jesus.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

It can be helpful to look at the etymology of words.
A couple of concerns, though, especially as i do enjoy etymology, myself.

One thing that i always have to remember, no matter how fascinating discoveries can be, and they so often are, is that the men who worked on translations were on a different level all together compared to myself. Yes, that does not negate the blessing of God towards me, ever, nor wipe me out totally of ever being able to see past error or 'bad translation' etc. But, i do try to keep in mind that while i see one thing that sticks out so boldly, like the example you gave, for instance, I am not yet so very well versed as to be able to hold every jot and tittle before my ever expanding information base, between my ears, [ if that is where it all resides? ]
Again, that does not negate the way of the Lord in revealing to me His Word as He gave it.
which brings me to a second thing...

being here for years i have seen so many members come and go who are adamant that they have it all and we need to listen to them, and even with threat that we will be judged if we don't. They are sold out on what they consider to be real revelation and go on with the morsel they have, to rewrite the Gospel and the Doctrine of God [if that is the correct term?] So me having a handle on something and being fully convinced that i got it directly from the Lord should always be handled gracefully and with great care.

which moves me on to another 'point'.....
all too often we can forget that we are one Body with One Head. We all need the same Head and we do need each other, and one part we do seem to forget is the need to be corrected as well as to correct, if and where needed because simply because we think we are on track in our grey matter with a direct hotline with the LORD, does not mean that we are. All too often we see folks depending on their self stimulation, or stimulation of their self and getting confused that it is the Holy Ghost doing all the thinking for them.
{ I write this to you with all fairness and do so in anticipation that you receive it well, as in no way finger pointing }

Now, another point, which sort of ties in with the previous one(s).

What we need to be careful of is that we are diligent enough for doing due diligence to all words we place in our 'theology' and the sentences we write about Scripture.
Searching out one word is good, but only to the limited extent of that word, by itself. If we go further and look at more words, we start to see an even more exciting picture [i do, anyway - and i think you might do also?]

Then we need to be able to actually hold it all together in a totally unbiased, un-indoctrinated view.
We can get a new 'revelation' about a word and carelessly (that is, without being careful to not be care-less) re-invent our own theology or doctrine based on our new discovery of a particular word meaning. Add to this our very chaotic english language which has, apart from being mongrel, evolved over time, and we, the present speakers, have notions about words and often both flitter them out and flitter past them, on receiving (reading or hearing). If we know Hebrew and Greek, that can either help or hinder. But knowing either language is again often biased and too often marginalized by cultural significance placed on it.
Men have been studying tirelessly only parts of either language and yet that does not have to equate to either getting it right of wrong.

When we add to all the possible learning, the Word given in its completeness, we then find a potentially more complex determination process in presenting a word in any given new language (new being anything after the earliest ones recorded) Sometimes we also have to use a sentence to 'explain' the words we present to cover everything else that is presented. That we do see in the parables Jesus used as well as the people He spoke to, the situation being spoken of etc, along with what the Lord God was telling them.
We have the advantage of having so much to be able to learn with. They had the advantage of being able to grasp the ideas because of the time they were living in and the everything they knew, even if they didn't realise that they knew it.

If you have followed all this thus far, you are doing very well! I tend to warble a lot once i get going.... but i am trying hard to explain a couple of things, which i may not need to directly to you.

One question did come to mind about what you wrote...
have you looked at the words, 'death' or 'die' with the same wanting to get it right as you did with eternal? Then there are words like soul and spirit.
A lot is found in the first bits of Genesis.

Thank you for reading.
Grace and Peace in Christ


Bless you ....><>

 

[Butch5]

@complete

Greetings,



It can be helpful to look at the etymology of words.
A couple of concerns, though, especially as i do enjoy etymology, myself.

One thing that i always have to remember, no matter how fascinating discoveries can be, and they so often are, is that the men who worked on translations were on a different level all together compared to myself. Yes, that does not negate the blessing of God towards me, ever, nor wipe me out totally of ever being able to see past error or 'bad translation' etc. But, i do try to keep in mind that while i see one thing that sticks out so boldly, like the example you gave, for instance, I am not yet so very well versed as to be able to hold every jot and tittle before my ever expanding information base, between my ears, [ if that is where it all resides? ]
Again, that does not negate the way of the Lord in revealing to me His Word as He gave it.
which brings me to a second thing...

being here for years i have seen so many members come and go who are adamant that they have it all and we need to listen to them, and even with threat that we will be judged if we don't. They are sold out on what they consider to be real revelation and go on with the morsel they have, to rewrite the Gospel and the Doctrine of God [if that is the correct term?] So me having a handle on something and being fully convinced that i got it directly from the Lord should always be handled gracefully and with great care.

which moves me on to another 'point'.....
all too often we can forget that we are one Body with One Head. We all need the same Head and we do need each other, and one part we do seem to forget is the need to be corrected as well as to correct, if and where needed because simply because we think we are on track in our grey matter with a direct hotline with the LORD, does not mean that we are. All too often we see folks depending on their self stimulation, or stimulation of their self and getting confused that it is the Holy Ghost doing all the thinking for them.
{ I write this to you with all fairness and do so in anticipation that you receive it well, as in no way finger pointing }

Now, another point, which sort of ties in with the previous one(s).

What we need to be careful of is that we are diligent enough for doing due diligence to all words we place in our 'theology' and the sentences we write about Scripture.
Searching out one word is good, but only to the limited extent of that word, by itself. If we go further and look at more words, we start to see an even more exciting picture [i do, anyway - and i think you might do also?]

Then we need to be able to actually hold it all together in a totally unbiased, un-indoctrinated view.
We can get a new 'revelation' about a word and carelessly (that is, without being careful to not be care-less) re-invent our own theology or doctrine based on our new discovery of a particular word meaning. Add to this our very chaotic english language which has, apart from being mongrel, evolved over time, and we, the present speakers, have notions about words and often both flitter them out and flitter past them, on receiving (reading or hearing). If we know Hebrew and Greek, that can either help or hinder. But knowing either language is again often biased and too often marginalized by cultural significance placed on it.
Men have been studying tirelessly only parts of either language and yet that does not have to equate to either getting it right of wrong.

When we add to all the possible learning, the Word given in its completeness, we then find a potentially more complex determination process in presenting a word in any given new language (new being anything after the earliest ones recorded) Sometimes we also have to use a sentence to 'explain' the words we present to cover everything else that is presented. That we do see in the parables Jesus used as well as the people He spoke to, the situation being spoken of etc, along with what the Lord God was telling them.
We have the advantage of having so much to be able to learn with. They had the advantage of being able to grasp the ideas because of the time they were living in and the everything they knew, even if they didn't realise that they knew it.

If you have followed all this thus far, you are doing very well! I tend to warble a lot once i get going.... but i am trying hard to explain a couple of things, which i may not need to directly to you.

One question did come to mind about what you wrote...
have you looked at the words, 'death' or 'die' with the same wanting to get it right as you did with eternal? Then there are words like soul and spirit.
A lot is found in the first bits of Genesis.

Thank you for reading.
Grace and Peace in Christ


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br Bear,

I realize this post isn't directed to me, however, I just wanted to mention that I have also looked at those words, soul, spirit, sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tophet, and death. I think if we sent aside our preconceived idea of what these words mean and get our definitions strictly from Scripture it becomes much more clear about what the Bible teaches on this subject.

 

[Butch5]

you cannot understand what we understand for we have been "Born of the Spirt", "Born of GOD" you are flesh. we are "spirit' a new creation, you are earthly we are "Heavenly creatures" and trap in a earthly body. The earthly creature cannot understand the Heavenly creature. For it is impossible for you to do so.

But you don't know me. You can't really make a statement like that. But, even if that was true, what you presented contradicts Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5
Greetings,



thank you for your reply.
I am in the process of replying back to you but have been sidetracked with other matters.

It is a difficult topic for all to agree on. An important one, however.

can i leave with one thought... have you looked at the word(s) used for 'never' ? Can challenge some of what thus far is presented as final fact, either way.


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br.Bear,

You're welcome!

I'd have to look and see what word(s) is/are used for never. I've not done an in depth study on that particular word.

 

[complete]

Go back to the Revelation 20 passage talking about Death and Hades -- those people were Also judged according to their works -- and then They were caste into the lake of fire and brimstone.

You're suggesting that the unbeliever is simply going to be teased about judgement and the second death. But that it won't Really happen? Then what about the rich man and Lazarus. He found himself in Hades and wanting to warn his brothers about their coming fate After they die. And Hades people Will be caste into the lake of fire and brimstone. That is going to be as eternal as the New Jerusalem.

Annihilationism: The belief that the second death means total destruction or annihilation.
Revelation 2:11; 20:6 & 14; 21:8

Hello again @Sue D.

With respect I made no such suggestion. That is your interpretation of my remarks. I responded to the subject of the thread by saying that I did not believe in eternal conscious punishment. The punishment following the judgement of the last day is destruction. That punishment is eternal, in that it has no hope of reprieve. The destruction is permanent.

'The Rich Man and Lazarus' of Luke 16:19-31, is given with one purpose, and that is to expose the hypocrisy of Pharisaic teaching and tradition. It is not an account of an actual event. If the Lord Jesus intended this hypothetical portrayal to be intended to be taken as teaching, then He could be accused of flying in the face of the testimony of Scripture in relation to the state of the dead. For the testimony of Scripture is that there is no consciousness in death. A dead body has no ability to see, hear or speak, and the spirit (or breath of life) of man goes back to God Who gave it at the death of the body. Man ceases to be a living soul at death, and only the power of the resurrection can quicken him to life again. Only in resurrection, when body and spirit combine to become a living soul once more, can man become a living soul. For the soul is not immortal, it can, and does, die.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

@complete

Greetings,



It can be helpful to look at the etymology of words.
A couple of concerns, though, especially as i do enjoy etymology, myself.

One thing that i always have to remember, no matter how fascinating discoveries can be, and they so often are, is that the men who worked on translations were on a different level all together compared to myself. Yes, that does not negate the blessing of God towards me, ever, nor wipe me out totally of ever being able to see past error or 'bad translation' etc. But, i do try to keep in mind that while i see one thing that sticks out so boldly, like the example you gave, for instance, I am not yet so very well versed as to be able to hold every jot and tittle before my ever expanding information base, between my ears, [ if that is where it all resides? ]
Again, that does not negate the way of the Lord in revealing to me His Word as He gave it.
which brings me to a second thing...

being here for years i have seen so many members come and go who are adamant that they have it all and we need to listen to them, and even with threat that we will be judged if we don't. They are sold out on what they consider to be real revelation and go on with the morsel they have, to rewrite the Gospel and the Doctrine of God [if that is the correct term?] So me having a handle on something and being fully convinced that i got it directly from the Lord should always be handled gracefully and with great care.

which moves me on to another 'point'.....
all too often we can forget that we are one Body with One Head. We all need the same Head and we do need each other, and one part we do seem to forget is the need to be corrected as well as to correct, if and where needed because simply because we think we are on track in our grey matter with a direct hotline with the LORD, does not mean that we are. All too often we see folks depending on their self stimulation, or stimulation of their self and getting confused that it is the Holy Ghost doing all the thinking for them.
{ I write this to you with all fairness and do so in anticipation that you receive it well, as in no way finger pointing }

Now, another point, which sort of ties in with the previous one(s).

What we need to be careful of is that we are diligent enough for doing due diligence to all words we place in our 'theology' and the sentences we write about Scripture.
Searching out one word is good, but only to the limited extent of that word, by itself. If we go further and look at more words, we start to see an even more exciting picture [i do, anyway - and i think you might do also?]

Then we need to be able to actually hold it all together in a totally unbiased, un-indoctrinated view.
We can get a new 'revelation' about a word and carelessly (that is, without being careful to not be care-less) re-invent our own theology or doctrine based on our new discovery of a particular word meaning. Add to this our very chaotic english language which has, apart from being mongrel, evolved over time, and we, the present speakers, have notions about words and often both flitter them out and flitter past them, on receiving (reading or hearing). If we know Hebrew and Greek, that can either help or hinder. But knowing either language is again often biased and too often marginalized by cultural significance placed on it.
Men have been studying tirelessly only parts of either language and yet that does not have to equate to either getting it right of wrong.

When we add to all the possible learning, the Word given in its completeness, we then find a potentially more complex determination process in presenting a word in any given new language (new being anything after the earliest ones recorded) Sometimes we also have to use a sentence to 'explain' the words we present to cover everything else that is presented. That we do see in the parables Jesus used as well as the people He spoke to, the situation being spoken of etc, along with what the Lord God was telling them.
We have the advantage of having so much to be able to learn with. They had the advantage of being able to grasp the ideas because of the time they were living in and the everything they knew, even if they didn't realise that they knew it.

If you have followed all this thus far, you are doing very well! I tend to warble a lot once i get going.... but i am trying hard to explain a couple of things, which i may not need to directly to you.

One question did come to mind about what you wrote...
have you looked at the words, 'death' or 'die' with the same wanting to get it right as you did with eternal? Then there are words like soul and spirit.
A lot is found in the first bits of Genesis.

Thank you for reading.
Grace and Peace in Christ


Bless you ....><>

Hello @Br. Bear,

I receive your words with the same spirit with which they were given, and thank you for taking the time to give this advice. I have actually done what you suggested, in relation to the words you mention, and am grateful for the written word of God, which has enabled me to know the love of God, expressed in the birth, life, death, resurrection and continual intercession of the Living Word of God my Saviour, Lord and Head.

May His Name be praised!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Dave M]

@Butch5

A little off topic,, but I am curios to believe Jesus is God in the flesh??


thanks

 

[B-A-C]

A little off topic,, but I am curios to believe Jesus is God in the flesh??

@Butch5 along the same lines, who/what do you think the Holy Spirit is?

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5

A little off topic,, but I am curios to believe Jesus is God in the flesh??


thanks

It is off topic. If you'd like to start a new thread I'd be happy to address it. I really would rather not derail this thread.