I Think most True Christians really do not understand what happen In The Fall in Genesis. and as far as their conversation, goes, ADAM died.

[PloughBoy]

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

now it seems to me those that already are born again most likeley are already seeking the Kingdom so this must be for the dead !! for when I was dead this is what I did I seeked God with everything I had, and years later I finally got changed, then some more time I finally started producing fruit, then some more time I started more fellowship

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Seems Jesus cares a lot more about the lost then those that are already saved thank God for I was once lost.



there is more rejoicing over one sinner who is saved in heaven then those that are righteous

Luke 15:7
Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Now Dave you said:
"now it seems to me those that already are born again most likeley are already seeking the Kingdom so this must be for the dead !! for when I was dead this is what I did I seeked God with everything I had, and years later I finally got changed, then some more time I finally started producing fruit, then some more time I started more fellowship"

Dead people cannot read, am i right. New "born from above" Children are babies, they don't know any better they have to drink the milk of "The Word of God" and grow. They have to be instructed what the word of God is. They grow into Spiritual adolescence, then into Adulthood and then on into Maturity. and all alone this course, they make a lot of mistakes and received a lot of discipline and chastisement and Scorching! If a person does not go through this, the Bible say: they are not a "Child of God"!

God Disciplines His Children

4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” a
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

12Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13“Make level paths for your feet,” b so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

How many "whippings" have you received? _________. Well, you see, I am hard headed, I got a lot of them! I have lost count! and i do have the stripe marks to testify of this truth! "show me yours, and I will show you mines"

PS. I agree, through the years, what you read and what you heard, "the calling was going out to you, "for you are the elect of God" You have the ears to hear. It is like a crowded room and you heard a distance voice speaking to you and you started to follow that voice, and all the while you were coming slowly but surely, what we call an "Irresistible grace"! or [Irresistible call] the seed was planted in you before the foundation of the world.

 

[Brother Paul]

I(f total depravity equals absolute incapability then you are incorrect.

IF to “believe,” or “not believe,” is an act solely of divine sovereignty, and is beyond human cooperation or capability, THEN any divine command requiring “belief” would be wholly irrelevant, not to speak of involving the biblical record in theological absurdity.

The New Testament clearly teaches that belief is a sacredly imposed obligation to which man is required to exercise as a matter of his own volition.

At the commencement of his ministry, Jesus himself commanded, “repent, and believe the gospel” (Mk. 1:15). The Lord charged those of his audiences to “believe the works” that he was performing, that they might comprehend his relationship to the Father (Jn. 10:38; cf. 14:11). He admonished his auditors to “believe on the light,” i.e., the illuminating instruction that emanated from him, that they themselves might be enlightened (Jn. 12:36). And to the jailor in the city of Philippi, the inspired Paul commanded, “believe on the Lord Jesus” (Acts 16:31).

In each of the passages just cited, the Greek verb pisteuo (“believe”) is in the imperative mood — the mood of command. It thus is quite inaccurate to allege that “believing” is an act of which one is personally incapable. Clearly, belief is an action that has been commanded by God as a means leading to or being rewarded by one’s justification. The submission of a person to this sacred obligation takes nothing away from the sovereignty of God. In fact, use of the imperative mood necessitates the capability of the recipient to respond. Let no man say it was God who caused them to be tempted and to give in to it. It is OUR sin that separates us from Him (spiritual death)...we decide to disregard His word of warning from love and choose to determine good and evil for ourself as a god unto our self (Genesis 3:5)...we do that which is right in our own eyes.

 

[PloughBoy]

I(f total depravity equals absolute incapability then you are incorrect.

IF to “believe,” or “not believe,” is an act solely of divine sovereignty, and is beyond human cooperation or capability, THEN any divine command requiring “belief” would be wholly irrelevant, not to speak of involving the biblical record in theological absurdity.

The New Testament clearly teaches that belief is a sacredly imposed obligation to which man is required to exercise as a matter of his own volition.

At the commencement of his ministry, Jesus himself commanded, “repent, and believe the gospel” (Mk. 1:15). The Lord charged those of his audiences to “believe the works” that he was performing, that they might comprehend his relationship to the Father (Jn. 10:38; cf. 14:11). He admonished his auditors to “believe on the light,” i.e., the illuminating instruction that emanated from him, that they themselves might be enlightened (Jn. 12:36). And to the jailor in the city of Philippi, the inspired Paul commanded, “believe on the Lord Jesus” (Acts 16:31).

In each of the passages just cited, the Greek verb pisteuo (“believe”) is in the imperative mood — the mood of command. It thus is quite inaccurate to allege that “believing” is an act of which one is personally incapable. Clearly, belief is an action that has been commanded by God as a means leading to or being rewarded by one’s justification. The submission of a person to this sacred obligation takes nothing away from the sovereignty of God. In fact, use of the imperative mood necessitates the capability of the recipient to respond. Let no man say it was God who caused them to be tempted and to give in to it. It is OUR sin that separates us from Him (spiritual death)...we decide to disregard His word of warning from love and choose to determine good and evil for ourself as a god unto our self (Genesis 3:5)...we do that which is right in our own eyes.

Really i think I left room for discussion of what happen when man fell, 1st few post i posted, i think leading the way of example. that led outside of the normal theological thought patterns. but the simple things, that can be discuss, that even a child could understand and somewhat enjoy. Bees, trees, birds., the wind, storms, headaches, nose bleeds, inoculations, even the pain, that cause the tears that run down from our eyes! "Paradise Lost and move on to Paradise Gain" our view! And not John Milton's, "Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained" Published in 1667 poem.

Reason I really do not think a lot of our brothers and sisters, have really entered the spirit of the Garden of Eden. the trees, the flowers, our skin, our movement all change in the Fall of mankind. It effected everything that existed. the gentle breeze even change, the movement of the slay and flow of Eve's hair even change. Because in its perfect state where nothing was tainted, but perfect, and every strand of her hair, was in its proper place no matter which way she turn her head She was perfect, no need for a" Beauty Salon" for the world was Her Salon. Very curve was perfect, every toe nail was perfect,

These are things we know. We were perfect but after the fall, imperfect in every way. Now we are starting off with the truth!

Now we might think we look aright, But we have been deceive. If you only knew what you really look like, you might have a heart attack! On Satan side, we are deceived, on God side it is called mercy and grace! or Benevolence grace, that you don't see what you really look like!

We live in a dark world, that is a real statement. And Adam and Eve, did die the day they ate! Because God does not lie! And dead people cannot see!

Now True Christians, "born from Above" now you have eyes to see, but walking around here sleep, "sleep walkers"!

“Wake up, O sleeper,

rise up from the dead,

and Christ will shine on you.”

15Pay careful attention, then, to how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, 16redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to reckless indiscretion. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

 

[Brother Paul]

Interesting response. I do accept and believe Adam and Eve were perfect regarding how the Lord intended when He made them. However, having given them dominion over all on the earth and free volition (in His image), left the option (like with Arch Angels like Belial or a satan) to decide to do their own will. For them to truly love God and follow Him, the option of not doing that had to be present. god is not simply a grand puppet master pulling every string. Like the satan, in their pride (wanting to be like a god - Genesis 3:5), they decided to act against the loving warning of their Father (Genesis 2:17).

 

[Curtis]

I was wondering if a person is "spiritual dead" dead in their trespasses and sins. How can a dead person accept and reach out and take and read a "wedding invitation"? is not dead is dead? and who would send a dead person a wedding Invitation? surely God wouldn't.

Now think about that.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

God has shined his light into every human heart that is born on planet earth by his "grace" proving he exists!
No man has any excuse not to believe unless he loves darkness rather than light.

 

[PloughBoy]

The light of Christ has to shine upon man for them to see. remember God in the OT said He blinded men so they could not see. or believe. blindness is a work of GOD. Isaiah speaks of this:

(John 12).
39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.” i
41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

 

[Curtis]

The light of Christ has to shine upon man for them to see. remember God in the OT said He blinded men so they could not see. or believe. blindness is a work of GOD. Isaiah speaks of this:

(John 12).
39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.” i
41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

This is what happened when people heard the prophets of God in the old testament and resisted what they heard. It hardened their hearts and blinded their mind eventually, but that was not always the case from the start!

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Jesus taught vast crowds of people and they saw his miracles, but they resisted the Word of God which always leads to the hardening of the heart that blinds them from the truth!

 

[PloughBoy]

You said:
"Jesus taught vast crowds of people and they saw his miracles, but they resisted the Word of God which always leads to the hardening of the heart that blinds them from the truth!" That is not the summary of why their hearts where harden. Their hearts are Harden and that is why they "resisted His Words"! And the person who Have Harden their Hearts is God the Father! And No One Can Come to Christ or Believe His words unless;

(NAS 1977).
43Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44“No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

and I will try to persuade in this matter: How can a child believe, if that child has not been born yet? How can that child see or hear, if it has not come from the womb yet?

John 3:3-7
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God…

Matthew 11:25-27
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes…

Thank You father, You have hid these things from the wise and the prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.......

 

[Curtis]

You said:
"Jesus taught vast crowds of people and they saw his miracles, but they resisted the Word of God which always leads to the hardening of the heart that blinds them from the truth!" That is not the summary of why their hearts where harden. Their hearts are Harden and that is why they "resisted His Words"! And the person who Have Harden their Hearts is God the Father! And No One Can Come to Christ or Believe His words unless;

(NAS 1977).
43Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44“No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

and I will try to persuade in this matter: How can a child believe, if that child has not been born yet? How can that child see or hear, if it has not come from the womb yet?

John 3:3-7
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God…

Matthew 11:25-27
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes…

Thank You father, You have hid these things from the wise and the prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.......

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Is it God's will to "draw all men" to himself?

Why would anyone who is given the opportunity to be saved not accept it?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


Whose fault is it if a person is not saved? God or man, who rejects it?

1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Only people who reject the truth have their hearts hardened and their eyes blinded!

 

[PloughBoy]

This Biblical Story is about "GOD" and what HE is doing, It is not about us! we are nothing but a piece of "clay"! He molds us into what HE wants us to be! You are putting to much important on a creature that deserve nothing but to be cast into furnace. This world has become so wicked, than ever before, just like the bible said it would become, and even Christians are stumbling in The dark! Christians are becoming more "religious" and love the thoughts of religion ! And if "Theology Proper" would slap them in their face to wake them up! they would be "lost" even though, they have come home and safe.

You quote a lot of Scripture, but the "Institutionalize church" has fragmentized it, and place it on your table and told you to "slay and eat". And the modern day Dictionaries of this world has rewrote the script! But is it ironic, "The Reformers" wrote this day would surely come upon us, so also says the "Holy Scripture". Many cannot realize how far reaching is the biblical term "The Great Falling Away" has reached. Many Christians and leaders do not even know what the "Gospel of Jesus Christ" is any more, but have develop a "Gospel of Jesus Christ According To How They See It" They, is with a capital "T". And when you try to lead them to clear water, they will not drink, for they are use to the waters that has been trample under the feet of those who have lead them, astray and they have now, a acquired taste.

New American Standard 1977
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wantingto have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires;

King James 2000 Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears;



"PloughBoy" your words are to harsh we will not "tolerate" it! speak kinder words, softer words easier to endure. The kind we can enjoy, and appreciate Jesus and God, then people might want to serve Him. a kind of God we Can Love."

 

[Hekuran]

@PloughBoy are there any congregations meeting in the name of Jesus that aren't part of what you describe as the institutionalised church?

 

[Brother-Paul]

reading the word is great and a lot of people are full of book knowledge, but do they get wisdom from what they read ??? unless they are putting into action what they read they are with out wisdom.

So as it will be when Jesus separates the goat and the sheep, they all seemed to know Jesus and believed, yet the one difference was called out, the Goats did nothing, the sheep actually helped the needy they were servants,

Greetings Dave,

Nice to share again, I've mi@ed you.

Now two things I feel in my heart brother.

1 - 'called out' if you haven't please read 'What ie... the church from around post 60 onwards if I remember rightly.

2 - Now you know PB is a brother in Christ, so are you, so are all born again souls on here, we are all different though. I recently referred to brother Plough Boy, as John the Baptist, sometimes he comes over that way, I joked and asked if he eat locusts and wild honey, I think he said he liked battered locusts.The point I make is we are all different even though in God's image. I did wonder how people took John the Baptist, well we know because we have the account of what happened and how what he said was taken. Brood and viper talk.

I think brother PB may have to some, a marmite reaction, you like what he says or you don't, John the Baptist was like that, but he speaks a lot of 'Truth' Dave, we are also brothers and sisters in Christ.

Shalom my friend

 

[Brother-Paul]

"Can a Leopard change its spots"?

Nothing is impossible for God brother.

If the human leopard is born again the answer is yes. As unsaved souls many of us were like wild animals.

Some sheep were once goats, PTL for every soul that is saved in Jesus Name.

 

[PloughBoy]

You used the word "congregations" meaning more than one, because you did, put a "s" on the end of congregation
so you must be referring to "institutional congregations [churches] coming together. signifying plural.

What is the institutional church? | GotQuestions.org

What is the institutional church? Why do some people dislike and/or distrust the institutional church?

www.gotquestions.org

The Congregation that Jesus is building, which is still in construction is "singular" and the text of "Holy Scripture" shows possession and description of the features. And the "institutional church' by no accounts, is a copy, i would say.
And concerning coming together, we are together, I would say, as long as we are abiding in "The Vine". and of course there are all kinds of "congregations" all over this world meeting in the name of Jesus. That are not, a picture of the "Institutionalize church" For in "China, Japan, Africa, Iran, Syria, North Korea, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya, India, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam and a lot more are meeting in "secret , as those of The NT era "congregation" before The word "church" ever existed or even coined as a word.

 

[Hekuran]

What then do you mean by institutionalised church? Is it any congregation that has a structure of discipline and authority?

 

[PloughBoy]

Nothing is impossible for God brother.

If the human leopard is born again the answer is yes. As unsaved souls many of us were like wild animals.

Some sheep were once goats, PTL for every soul that is saved in Jesus Name.

you are right "a leopard can't , but God can" "can a Blackman turn himself White"? Now what did you say God could do?

 

[PloughBoy]

What then do you mean by institutionalised church? Is it any congregation that has a structure of discipline and authority?

There is a link attached to post 34

 

[PloughBoy]

hehehe! Brother -Paul, you do know how to play Chess? Your move don't worry, Hekuran is pondering his next move.

 

[Hekuran]

The information in the link describes institutionalised churches as public organisations which meet in a structured format in a building at set times.

The first congregations met in buildings - for example the fellowship in Colosse met at Nympha's home. they had set times to come together. Paul writes to the Corinthians about orderly collective worship.

How does having an established organisation fall short of the patterns set out in the New Testament?

 

[Trevor]

I also think some christians do not know how serious the fall was, and how evil it is. and if they cannot see how evil, the most evilest of all the crimes that ever existed. They will not take their own salvation and deliverance that serious. But by not doing so, their proclamation of "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" is proclaim in a Lukewarm manner with a lot of excuses in their defense. But if in their conversation of "the Salvation story" was more active in their daily conversation of the events to bring them into remembrance, i think it would have a better effect than the "superficial" act of every 1st Sunday or everyday of receiving "The Lord supper" for remembrance. Please note: I am not attacking the "LORD Supper"! But addressing our conversation concerning "The salvation Story", but we must truly understand what happen in "The Fall" in Genesis. Now what happen simple things, but great deteriorations.

your thoughts?

It is strange how different people perceive things in different ways. To see the fall without the influence of God, who is all seeing, all knowing and everywhere at the same time, is to miss the point. God created everything. The world , the garden, the trees in the garden, Adam and Eve and Satan (in the guise of the serpent), but before he created any of these things, he wrote my name in the book of life. So before he created the world and everything in it, he knew that my name had to be written in the book of life, and why. If he knew why, then he had to have known it was going to happen, in fact it must have been part of his plan. We live in Satan's world, we have been educated in Satan's world. We have been educated to see things from Satan's point of view. For instance we see death as bad, and yet scripture informs us " the day of our death is better than the day of our birth" When we come to the Lord our minds are renewed. Our eyes are being opened, I haven't written much but I pray it causes us to delve deeper.