Where do Christians go when they 'die'?

[Sue D.]

Near-death and actual dying are not the same thing.

 

[Struggling Christain]

Near-death and actual dying are not the same thing.

Well, medical technology has come a LONG way. Sometimes, people are clinically DEAD and then revived and, sometimes, tell some amazing stories. In fact, there are seemingly too many of those stories to count. What do you say to that?

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul -- John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believes on Him, will not perish but have everlasting / eternal life." As a person hears God Word - the Holy Spirit works through His Word -- they will realize their need For accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. That person either accepts or reject's the salvation that God makes available -- Then upon Accepting -- a person becomes a disciple of Jesus Christ. A by-product Of our salvation Is eternal life in heaven -- being in heaven -- more accurately -- the future home in the New Jerusalem is the absence of pain, suffering -- all of those positives. No more inner guilt -- sorrow.

And, yes, as a Jewish person -- He Did come for His people - the Jews and then salvation was extended to the rest of the world -- Gentiles. Salvation is provided for All - - not everyone will accept God's salvation.

I Was a pastor's wife for a few years, many years ago. Every pastor / pastor's wife - knows that some funerals are Not easy to reside over. And sometimes its due to the age, circumstances of their deaths. And sometimes it's because the person's life gave no indication Of their salvation. And because "by their fruits, we will know them." A person's life Will reflect the presence of the Holy Spirit residing within them.

There was a pastor and family who had just accepted a call to pastor a particular church. They were barely even unpacked when one of their congregation passed away. He said it was hard to do that funeral because he literally had no clue as to who the person was. He got to know him/ her through talking with the family members and getting the particular of the death. The aim should Always be to share plan of salvation -- when a person is dead and gone -- they are In eternity. It's for the Living that the funeral is given. Scripture is meant to Comfort Through God's plan for Our salvation.

No pastor should Ever 'lie' at a funeral service or before or after. The person who died did not live in a bubble. A funeral is to be remembering remembering their lives. -- in a positive way. And a pastor will always meet with the family before hand. Talk about the person who passed. It's part of the mourning process. They plan the service -- what songs to sing- what will be said - or Not said.

And, just to clarify -- we Can know that a person is a believer or not. And while alive in the here and now -- we Can know that we're a believer or not. There's no need to have to Doubt about it.

IF a non-believer was sitting at their computer reading 'this' , he/ she Could 'right now' talk to God about their need For His salvation accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Thank Him For their salvation and there would never be any need To question 'Am I really saved or not".

Dear Sue,

There are many scripture verses similar to John 3.16 who ever believes will be saved.

Call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved.

Believe on the Lord and you will be saved.

Although they may be right in themselves they can be misleading also.

You quote John 3.16, I would suggest for this verse and the other similar references mentioned above that the reader should read all of John 3:1-21

They are all void with out Jesus' teaching in John 3:3, 5 & 7. We must be born again, born from above.

You say above...

As a person hears God Word - the Holy Spirit works through His Word -- they will realize their need For accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

Only if their heart open to the Holy Spirit. Some people will never open their hearts to the Spirit of God, John 3:18-21 confirm this.

 

[Brother-Paul]

And, just to clarify -- we Can know that a person is a believer or not. And while alive in the here and now -- we Can know that we're a believer or not. There's no need to have to Doubt about it.

Not always Sue, I have to disagree with you here.

I feel you are viewing this inside the walls, eg If a person goes to a place of worship they all become to know each other, providing the congregation is not to large. As a result we can tell a tree by its fruits.

Now if a person does not go to a place of worship, how does a pastor know? He doesn't. He could ask family, many think they are saved, thinking doesn't get us to heaven, we must be born anew.

Then there is the person who is told about Jesus before their last breath, you can't tell their fruits in that space of time.

 

[B-A-C]

A saved souls spirit goes to be with the lord, we are not with the Lord in heaven, except in spirit.

Kind of like "now".

The saved souls are raised to judgement for what they have done for the Lord,

What part of the saved soul?

our body goes into the ground, returns to the dust of the earth.

Does our 'old' body get resurrected?

Paul does mention in one passage that our spirit can be absent from the body.

2Cor 5:6; Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
2Cor 5:7; for we walk by faith, not by sight—
2Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2Cor 5:9; Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

One the things that splits the church here is... is the spirit automatically separated from the body instantly at death?

Samuel asked Saul "why have you awoken me from my slumber". ( 1 Sam 28:15; )
Over two dozen times in the Bible it says the saints "sleep". (Does this mean just their body sleeps?)
There are two stories about someone named Lazarus, many theologians think these are two different people. To me it doesn't matter if they are they same person or not.
In the story of Lazarus and the rich man... Lazarus didn't go to heaven, he went to Abrahams Bosom.
We aren't told where Martha and Mary's brother Lazarus went when he died, but wherever it was... he came back after three days.
Even when Jesus "died", it doesn't say He ascended immediately but went to the lower parts of the Earth.
So... were Lazarus, the rich man, and Jesus's bodies all operating without a mind/soul in them?
In a passage I find humorous... Jesus says Lazarus is sleeping...

John 11:11; This He said, and after that He *said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."
John 11:12; The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."
John 11:13; Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
John 11:14; So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

There are several verses that say we rise "on the last day". We will hear the trumpet and rise, we will hear the voice of the Lord and rise.
What part of us hears these things and rises? Our soul/conscience/mind/ego/spirit or just our body?

1Cor 15:35; But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
1Cor 15:36; You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;

1Cor 15:40; There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
1Cor 15:41; There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I take this passage to mean our old 'fleshly/physical' bodies won't be resurrected. It will be something new, something different..
"changed" in the twinkling of an eye..

So it seems with Samuel, Lazarus, the Rich man, and Jesus... their "spirit/mind/soul" stayed with their bodies after death.
There are a few other examples of this as well.

The dead who came back to life in Matt 27:52; I do not doubt they were really dead. But I find it interesting none of them tells anyone what heaven is like.

 

[Dave M]

Near-death and actual dying are not the same thing.

actually most of them legally die but they come back, from my understanding

 

[B-A-C]

actually most of them legally die but they come back, from my understanding

The thing about "near death" or "going to heaven". I've read some these books and seen some of these movies.
No one gives the same description... I find that odd. No one views God the same way, some don't even claim to ever see God.. just angels or something else.

2Cor 12:4; was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Rev 10:4; When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them."

It seems there are certain things in heaven, that no one is allowed to tell everyone. Yet these people who say they went to heaven seemingly share everything they know about it.

I admit, I am skeptical.

 

[B-A-C]

As a person hears God Word - the Holy Spirit works through His Word -- they will realize their need For accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

Only if their heart open to the Holy Spirit. Some people will never open their hearts to the Spirit of God, John 3:18-21 confirm this.

Absolutely.
However there is a false teaching that goes along with hardcore Calvinism (TULIP). The "I" here stands for something called "Irresistible Grace"
It is a common and popular teaching, at least here in the US.. particularly in Baptist churches.

Irresistible grace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(I normally don't like wikipedia articles, but this one is pretty close to my understanding )

The "P" stands for predestination. But it's difficult to separate any 1 part of this from the other pieces. If you believe in one part of it, you just about have to believe in all of it.
For example they believe God picks who will be saved... (no real free will, at least in that perspective).. and when your time comes to be saved... You cannot "resist" the Holy Spirit (even thought the Bible clearly says otherwise).
You have to believe one part of this.. in order to believe another part of it.

1Thes 5:19; Do not quench the Spirit;
Acts 7:51; "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Brother-Paul said:
A saved souls spirit goes to be with the Lord, we are not with the Lord in heaven, except in spirit.

Kind of like "now".

On earth a saved person, consists of body and soul plus spirit.

In heaven until Christ's return I believe we will be spirit only


Brother-Paul said:
The saved souls are raised to judgement for what they have done for the Lord

Brother-Paul said:
our body goes into the ground, it returns to the dust of the earth when we die.

What part of the saved soul?

Does our 'old' body get resurrected?

This could be the soul, it could be the body, it could be body and soul.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (NKJV)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Only the spirit of the born again believer goes to heaven

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
This is as we know because some will be alive at Christ's return in Glory

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The spirit is alive with Christ in heaven, the body and soul are dead, sleeping awaiting the Lord's return.
But they will be awakened at Christ's return PTL - note they will be raised 'incorruptible' note again - we shall be changed.
It would appear we recieve our glorious bodies at this point, the point of Christ's return in Glory.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

Victory has taken place, Christ returns, the devil is defeated, in the twinkle of an eye at his return, we are raised, the dead in Christ first, we meet him in the air, we will meet him with incorruptible bodies, we will have already changed. That is truly amazing brother and if that is not all, death is swallowed up in that victory, all in the twinkle of an eye.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The living soul is the body from the dust of the earth, plus the breath of life, the breath of life added to become a living soul.

The saved person at Christ's return has to be, I think, the body from the dust of the earth, with the breath of God, raised up on the last day, raise incorruptible, putting on immorality and becoming Glorious bodies with Christ as we meet in the air.

Paul does mention in one passage that our spirit can be absent from the body.

2Cor 5:6; Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
2Cor 5:7; for we walk by faith, not by sight—
2Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2Cor 5:9; Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

But here Paul is talking about our walk on earth, our life on earth. A born again believer is made from dust, with the breath to become a living soul, and has the spirit of God in them. He is referring to our walk in faith whilst alive on earth.

Interesting thought... if man is made from the dust of the earth, as we know he is, and becomes a living soul when he receives the breath of life, when that breath is taken away he is no longer a living soul, he is a dead soul. So it must be, in these terms, that 'the dead soul' is raised on the last day, raised incorruptible.

One the things that splits the church here is... is the spirit automatically separated from the body instantly at death?

Samuel asked Saul "why have you awoken me from my slumber". ( 1 Sam 28:15; )
Over two dozen times in the Bible it says the saints "sleep". (Does this mean just their body sleeps?)
There are two stories about someone named Lazarus, many theologians think these are two different people. To me it doesn't matter if they are they same person or not.
In the story of Lazarus and the rich man... Lazarus didn't go to heaven, he went to Abrahams Bosom.
We aren't told where Martha and Mary's brother Lazarus went when he died, but wherever it was... he came back after three days.
Even when Jesus "died", it doesn't say He ascended immediately but went to the lower parts of the Earth.
So... were Lazarus, the rich man, and Jesus's bodies all operating without a mind/soul in them?
In a passage I find humorous... Jesus says Lazarus is sleeping...

John 11:11; This He said, and after that He *said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."
John 11:12; The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."
John 11:13; Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
John 11:14; So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

There are several verses that say we rise "on the last day". We will hear the trumpet and rise, we will hear the voice of the Lord and rise.
What part of us hears these things and rises? Our soul/conscience/mind/ego/spirit or just our body?

1Cor 15:35; But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
1Cor 15:36; You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;

1Cor 15:40; There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
1Cor 15:41; There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I take this passage to mean our old 'fleshly/physical' bodies won't be resurrected. It will be something new, something different..
"changed" in the twinkling of an eye..

So it seems with Samuel, Lazarus, the Rich man, and Jesus... their "spirit/mind/soul" stayed with their bodies after death.
There are a few other examples of this as well.

The dead who came back to life in Matt 27:52; I do not doubt they were really dead. But I find it interesting none of them tells anyone what heaven is like.

But would you not think that God gives us the Spirit, God takes it back, God gives us the Spirit of the Risen Lord, to do what we are commissioned to do, go and make disciples... When we die that part is complete for us, our Spirit goes to be with the Lord in heaven and waits until Christ is commanded by the Father to return.

Then the spirit, that is with Christ, joins with our raised incorruptible bodies/souls and become Glorious bodies. They are made new as they are risen, refined in the fire, our sins were forgiven before we died. The corruptible though sinless, is raise incorruptible, made new, made Glorious. In life we practice righteous, in Christ we are made righteous.

Bless you.

 

[B-A-C]

There are many scripture verses similar to John 3.16 who ever believes will be saved.

Call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved.

Believe on the Lord and you will be saved.

Although they may be right in themselves they can be misleading also.

You quote John 3.16, I would suggest for this verse and the other similar references mentioned above that the reader should read all of John 3:1-21

They are all void with out Jesus' teaching in John 3:3, 5 & 7. We must be born again, born from above.

We are drifting a little here. This isn't directly related to the after-life... or is it?

But you bring up the most important point in Christianity to me... where do we draw the line?

Entire theologies are built in one single verse. Their interpretation of that verse may disagree with a dozen other verses... but hey, lets go with the "one verse" here.
Now some may move a little past this... now we believe another verse or two.

Instead of just believing in Jesus.... there is another verse that says I have to be "born again". Ok, we're making progress... is that the end of the story?

No, there are other verses that say I have to practice righteousness, and practice the 10 commandments, and not practice unrighteousness.
If we progress past this a little further.. there are verses that say.. in fact if we don't keep the commandments, and we say we know Jesus... we are liars.

So where do we draw the line? At one verse, a handful of verses? Or do we believe the "full gospel".. The WHOLE Bible.

Entire cults and denominations are built on half truths, half verses, and single verses.

 

[B-A-C]

But would you not think that God gives us the Spirit, God takes it back, God gives us the Spirit of the Risen Lord, to do what we are commissioned to do, go and make disciples... When we die that part is complete for us, our Spirit goes to be with the Lord in heaven and waits until Christ is commanded by the Father to return.

Yes, I totally believe this... this question is... when?

 

[Dave M]

The thing about "near death" or "going to heaven". I've read some these books and seen some of these movies.
No one gives the same description... I find that odd. No one views God the same way, some don't even claim to ever see God.. just angels or something else.

2Cor 12:4; was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Rev 10:4; When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them."

It seems there are certain things in heaven, that no one is allowed to tell everyone. Yet these people who say they went to heaven seemingly share everything they know about it.

I admit, I am skeptical.

I concur, and if we look at the NDE in the bible we can really understand it better for me. we the story of lazurus and the rich man burning in torment begging that he can go from the dead and tell his brothers that they better get there act together or they will end up with him in torment, but what does Abraham say NO if they dont believe the prophets or mosses then they will not believe you even if you come back from the dead that seals the deal for me about NDE.. seems the bible is clear on NDE in this story,

Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus


27‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, (lazaarus is dead)

28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also end up in this place of torment.’

29But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’

30‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’

31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Nicola Jane]

So true Nicola,

We are not saved to go to heaven, we are not saved so that there will be no more pain, suffering or crying, we are saved to become disciples for our Lord. When on earth our Lord covered the Holy Land and surrounding areas, why no further, because he I initially came as a Jew, to the Jews, as their promised messiah, he fulfilled prophesy, he told them of their errors and pointed them to the Father, but they failed to listen, they failed to accept he was the son of the living God, 'is he not Joseph's son' they said. Christ fulfilled all scripture and created a way for Gentile's to come to God, which infuriated them even more. God's will must always be done, it is his will, through Jesus, who gave the Great Commission, that we, his disciples shall go forth in His Name, sharing The Truth in The Word.


Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Bless you

Amen so well spoken paul God bless you always x

 

[Curtis]

The Heavenly Jerusalem will come down out of Heaven NOT to this earth, but the new earth!

Rev 21:1 I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth were completely gone. There was no longer any sea.
Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem. It was coming down out of heaven from God. It was prepared like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. (NiRV)

 

[Brother-Paul]

Amen so well spoken paul God bless you always x

We are to share The Word, always speak The Truth from The Word, always in His Love, encourage one another in the Lord.

Thanks be to God for the wonderful gift he has given us in his Son, Yeshua ha Mashiach.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

The Heavenly Jerusalem will come down out of Heaven NOT to this earth, but the new earth!

Rev 21:1 I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth were completely gone. There was no longer any sea.
Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem. It was coming down out of heaven from God. It was prepared like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. (NiRV)

So true PTL brother and what a Holy City He is preparing for us.

We will be in awe my friend

 

[Butch5]

Do you believe that some "near-death" experiences are valid?

Not sure. It would probably depend on what is claimed

 

[Brother-Paul]

We are drifting a little here. This isn't directly related to the after-life... or is it?

But you bring up the most important point in Christianity to me... where do we draw the line?

Entire theologies are built in one single verse. Their interpretation of that verse may disagree with a dozen other verses... but hey, lets go with the "one verse" here.
Now some may move a little past this... now we believe another verse or two.

Instead of just believing in Jesus.... there is another verse that says I have to be "born again". Ok, we're making progress... is that the end of the story?

No, there are other verses that say I have to practice righteousness, and practice the 10 commandments, and not practice unrighteousness.
If we progress past this a little further.. there are verses that say.. in fact if we don't keep the commandments, and we say we know Jesus... we are liars.

So where do we draw the line? At one verse, a handful of verses? Or do we believe the "full gospel".. The WHOLE Bible.

Entire cults and denominations are built on half truths, half verses, and single verses.

To me, reading or quoting one verse has to be done with caution, as we mature in faith we realise this more and more, so is it wrong to quote one verse, I think not, providing it is in context, which brings us to another question, in context with what? The few verses in the section, the chapter, the book, the testament the Bible.

The answer as to be in context with the Bible surely, to the best of our knowledge, and be open to correction or other verses of a similar context.

The quotes I gave I felt clarified the situation well.

Believe on the Lord and be saved, erm the devil believes.

Trust in the Lord and be saved. It depends how we trust.

Call on the Lord and you will be saved, how many use his name in vain?

It is by knowing these verses could mislead, they do not give the full picture, I feel we should clarify other relevant information from scripture, as with John 3:3, 5 & 7 make clear we must be born again. Therefore the first verses could be misleading in that people think they are saved but they are not born again and didn't realise they had to be. Preachers have a massive responsibility.

Another issue I find, John 3:1-21 is so often broken up and read as three separate parts, yet they are one very important message. At the start Jesus says 3x we must be born again, the middle v16-17 we are given the Gospel in miniature, but so often people miss the vital conclusion, the last few verses.

So back to topic brother, providing a person is born again, born anew, born from above, accepting God so loved the world that he gave is one and only son, that who so ever believes on him will have everlasting life. Accepting we are to be born again or know the consequences that it is our decision that prevented us from being saved. Providing we understand and are saved, our spirit goes to heaven to be with the Lord until he returns in glory, our body goes back to the dust of the earth.

When Christ returns in Glory, the dead in Christ will be raised first, followed immediately by those who are alive and saved, the perishable becomes unperishable, we will meet with the Lord in the air, we receive our glorious bodies and be with the Lord forever.

A new heaven, a new earth are created, we will be with the Lord in the New Jerusalem a place is currently being prepared for every saved soul, a room/mansion inside the new Jerusalem, there will be no need for light, our Lord will be the light.

This is what life is all about, this is the life God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are creating for every born again believer. Thanks be to God.

PTL.

 

[PloughBoy]

I think I agree with this.. but it will be more than just a symbol.

Rev 2:27; And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 12:5; And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 19:15; And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

When I read things like "broken to shivers" and "winepress, fierceness of God". It seems to me this will not be pleasant for some people. If everyone submitted why would they need to be "broken" or "shattered".

Psa 2:9; Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.