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Power in Hell?

One of the things that angels Can do is go between heaven and earth. and appear as men.

We are Not created as angels -- which is why we can't and won't be doing what you're suggesting is possible. We're not talking about sci-fi.

Little children Do grow up. Little children trust God easier than older people do.

'we' are to grow in the grace and Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Becoming more Christ-like -- knowing God's Word and sharing the Gospel unto salvation with all who will listen. NOW is the time for salvation.

No one can take off and put on a body at will.

Yes, God has given us an imagination -- but as adults we realize what is reality and what is fiction.
 
@Butch5 -- you are still free to submit any thoughts you want on any subject you want. You have a problem with the translators ability to translate correctly.

Please, let's just read what Scripture is saying. The Garden of Eden is Not the same as the Paradise that is in Abraham's bosom where the rich man and Lazarus were. Or -- where the rich man still Is and will be until hell/ Hades are thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.

Yes, you Do tend to hit marks -- the effectiveness / correctness might be in question, though.

The Greek word transliterated paradise means a garden. There is no garden in Abraham's chest. You're conflating two passages of Scripture. You won't find anything in Scripture that says there is a garden in Abraham's chest, it's not there.
 
The term is Abraham's bosom And it Is talked about in the book of Luke.

And, you're right -- there is no mention of a garden in Abrahams' chest. It isn't there. Besides that's Not what's being talked about.

Genesis 2:8 "The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed."

And Paradise is in one area of Abraham's bosom -- That is where Lazarus went. And on the Other side is hell / Hades.

I happen to trust what the translators have given us in God's Word.
 
Nice going, Butch!!!!! “I do like the way you see things sometimes!!! You have definitely hit the mark !!! And the way you slinging that “sword”it is cutting both ways. Now, you got to be Very careful, “You don’t cut yourself”!

I just believe that everything has to harmonize. Harmony in the Scriptures shows that we understand something correctly. If we don't have harmony we have something wrong. For instance, Lazarus being in a garden on Abraham's chest just doesn't make any sense to me. How would that fit with what Jesus is saying? How would a man have a garden on his chest. On the other hand we see that Hagar was in Abraham's bosom and she conceived. It was obviously an intimate relationship. We see that Jesus was in the bosom of the Father and John leaned on Jesus bosom. These are all examples of an intimate relationship. I don't see why in one instance people would suggest that Abraham's bosom is a place where dead people go.
 
@Butch5 -- Abraham's bosom and Abraham and Sarah are two very different things.

Abraham had sex with Hagar -- she got pregnant. She gave birth to Ishmael.

Abrahams' bosom is a place and Abraham and Sarah were real people.

An example of how a name can refer both a person and a place even within the same verse. Genesis 11:31 "Then Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot, the son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram's wife, and they went to out with them from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the Land of Canaan ; And they came to Haran and dwelt there."
 
Not sure why you would ask that question I know nothing about either, nor why you would assume one or the other leaving no other choice. I have no affiliation with any denomination just the Holy Ghost and the Lord himself. Initially growing up my mother dragged me to a Baptist church and after Holy Ghost baptism at 38 years old was associated with a Pentecostal group for maybe 4-6 months, but the Lord kept showing me things that they were doing and teaching that didn't line up with his word so had to bow out. Spent many months trying to find a group but was always a cast out as most do not HEAR the Lord when he speaks though they claim to be Christians. Most do not believe in casting out of unclean spirits, I have done it. Most do not adhere to the laying on of hands and praying for the sick and they recover, done that too at the Lords directing. How about praying in other tongues, do that too. Indeed most things were told about a true believer in Mark 16:17-18, the so called Christians of today dismiss as only being for the early church, but having done these things I can attest that they are also for ALL who are the true believers. This is part of what makes you the outcast among your so called brethren or modern Christianity.

Everything I write is based upon Titus1:2 " In hope of ETERNAL LIFE, WHICH GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, PROMISED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN."
If he promised it before the world began, WHO did he promise this eternal life too? That's the mystery.

Man including Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. We see Jesus in Revelation and before ascension in a body that had holes in it and a spear wound that should have been bleeding for the entire 40 days he was here. But since there are no accounts of blood during this 40 day period he wore the body to prove he was resurrected as the person they knew as Jesus in the flesh. And at times hid who he was from those that would have known him by facial recognition. If we are like him when he returns for us and meet him in the air and are changed in the twinkling of an eye then we will be spirits (new creations) that are higher than the Angels, for we shall judge angels, and they as you know are seen of men as men when need be. Example is coming to get Lot and his family.

Matthew 5:8 " Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall SEE God." 1John 4:12 "No MAN hath SEEN God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and His
LOVE is perfected in us." Man cannot see God as God does not allow it, would you agree? as man would no longer want to live on the earth if he were to see God. But the pure in Heart shall see God but yet these same pure in heart are the teachers spoken of in Isaiah 30:20 whom the people of earth that are born during the reign are taught the WAY by them.
Isaiah 30:19 :For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.
30:20 " And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet SHALL NOT THY TEACHERS BE REMOVED INTO A CORNER ANYMORE;
BUT THINE EYES SHALL SEE THY TEACHERS."

30:21 " And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee saying this is the WAY, walk ye in it..............."

So in short the pure in heart that are not men anymore shall see God and at the same time they are the teachers of the people during the reign of the kingdom and are
SEEN of the people. A Spirit cannot be SEEN by the human eye but if they put on a body then are they seen just as the angels who came after Lots family.

I would add that the pure in heart are those that have achieved to the full aspect of the WAY which is AGAPE LOVE the substance of God. Who better to teach the WAY
than those that have made the entire journey?




Never saw that question on any of last several pages I was involved on.
John 5:26
Don't see how it could be anything short of a God though it be the Son of God we are discussing. "As the Father hath life within himself, so has he given to the Son to have life within Himself."
God himself breathed into the body of Adam and he became a living soul (life giving breath) as he received that spirit we know as Adam. Jesus breathed upon the disciples and said "receive ye the Holy Ghost" John 20:22 I guess he had the power to at least mark them for baptism which was the same day of his resurrection. All found in John 20, although the Spirit wasn't given until the day of Pentecost.

1 Co 15:45 "And so it is written, the first man Adam became a living soul; The last Adam (Jesus) BECAME A QUICKENING SPIRIT." First Adam made alive outside the curses of Eden became a living soul. The last perfect MAN Jesus also born outside the curses of Eden (no carnal mind) became a quickening spirit. This verse plainly says what he was and what he BECAME. Not what he will become. The Job/duty/responsibility/joy of the Lord in his capacity as a quickening spirit is to give you life by the Baptism in the Holy Ghost. The only other time Life was given to a man was when God gave it to Jesus at Jordan. And we could all agree that when that baptism occurs we are called new creations. 2Co 5:17, Gal 6:15, and if new creations then how would we still be men? Nothing new in that. As anyone "joined unto the Lord is ONE SPIRIT" not one MAN. 1 Co 6:17

Again, my point is breath. The Greek word pneuma has as it's meaning wind, or breath. Breath is essentially wind. It does not mean a disembodied living being. The English word spirit does have as it's meaning a disembodied living being. This is the problem with translating pneuma as spirit. When people see the word spirit in the Bible they import this idea of a disembodied living being. So, they're importing an idea into the text that the text is not suggesting. The passage says Jesus became a quickening wind or breath. What would it mean that Jesus was a life giving wind or breath?

I think the reason you're seeing it as Jesus changed form is because you're importing that idea of spirit as a disembodied living being. But that's not what the Greek or the Hebrew words mean. They mean wind.

Jesus wasn't a life giving wind or breath before because God hadn't given Him all authority. However, After the crucifixion God did give Him all authority. Now, He makes the decision as to who gets eternal life and who doesn't. So, we can see how now, He is a live giving wind or breath.

When translators translate the word pneuma as spirit it's a figure of speech, it's not literal. The word spirit is a figurative usage of the word pneuma.
 
@Butch5 -- Abraham's bosom and Abraham and Sarah are two very different things.

Abraham had sex with Hagar -- she got pregnant. She gave birth to Ishmael.

Abrahams' bosom is a place and Abraham and Sarah were real people.

An example of how a name can refer both a person and a place even within the same verse. Genesis 11:31 "Then Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot, the son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram's wife, and they went to out with them from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the Land of Canaan ; And they came to Haran and dwelt there."

Abraham's bosom is not a place. Read the passage, Abraham speaks. Locations don't speak. It's the man Abraham. His bosom is his chest.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (Lk. 16:25 KJV)

What we see here is the Rich Man, a Jew being rejected and Lazarus, who I believe represents Jesus, being embraced by Abraham. The Jews believed they were Abraham's seed, that they would inherit the promises. They rejected Jesus and believed He was smitten by God. What a shock when the Rich Man, the Jew, who expected to be with Abraham finds himself rejected and the one he thought was rejected by God is actually the one who is accepted.

Does this sound like the Lazarus, a poor beggar?

3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. (Isa. 53:3-4 NKJ)
 
The term is Abraham's bosom And it Is talked about in the book of Luke.

And, you're right -- there is no mention of a garden in Abrahams' chest. It isn't there. Besides that's Not what's being talked about.

Genesis 2:8 "The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed."

And Paradise is in one area of Abraham's bosom -- That is where Lazarus went. And on the Other side is hell / Hades.

I happen to trust what the translators have given us in God's Word.
Even if you blindly trust the translators, the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is an issue of interpretation not translation. Your interpretation of the parable doesn't fit with Scripture. Hades is the grave, not a place where living dead people go. Living dead people? Kind of sounds like a contradiction, huh? All of the mentions in Scripture of a bosom refer to someone's chest. For some reason people want to say Abraham's bosom is a location in the grave.

They do not lie with the mighty Who are fallen of the uncircumcised, Who have gone down to hell with their weapons of war; They have laid their swords under their heads, (Ezek. 32:27 NKJ)

It seems people have gone down into Hades with their weapons. Is that saying they were buried with their weapons or is it saying that ghosts took their swords to hell?

Let death come suddenly upon them, Let them go down alive into Sheol; For wickedness is in their dwelling, in the midst of them.
(Ps. 55:15 ASV)

It seems people can go down to Hades alive. Is this saying they were buried alive or that they just didn't die but somehow went down into the earth to Hades? I don't know anyone who believes that living people can go down to Hades
 
One thing to keep in mind about the parables is that Jesus spoke them to the Jewish leadership to

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 "For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:`Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should1 heal them2.'
(Matt. 13:10-15 NKJ)

How do we know that the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man was a parable?

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world1." (Matt. 13:34-35 NKJ)

The whole point is that they didn't understand. If Lazarus and the Rich Man was about what happens to dead people it would be very easy to understand. It seems quite obvious then that that is not what Jesus meant.
 
Jesus wasn't a life giving wind or breath before because God hadn't given Him all authority. However, After the crucifixion God did give Him all authority. Now, He makes the decision as to who gets eternal life and who doesn't. So, we can see how now, He is a live giving wind or breath.

Well, which is it? A man or a life giving wind? Not sure? In your scenario then God himself is just a wind or breath as the bible says he is a SPIRIT and so is the Holy Spirit.
 
1 Co 15:45 "And so it is written, the first man Adam became a living soul; The last Adam (Jesus) BECAME A QUICKENING SPIRIT." First Adam made alive outside the curses of Eden became a living soul. The last perfect MAN Jesus also born outside the curses of Eden (no carnal mind) became a quickening spirit. This verse plainly says what he was and what he BECAME. Not what he will become. The Job/duty/responsibility/joy of the Lord in his capacity as a quickening spirit is to give you life by the Baptism in the Holy Ghost. The only other time Life was given to a man was when God gave it to Jesus at Jordan. And we could all agree that when that baptism occurs we are called new creations. 2Co 5:17, Gal 6:15, and if new creations then how would we still be men? Nothing new in that. As anyone "joined unto the Lord is ONE SPIRIT" not one MAN. 1 Co 6:17

Reposted as it seems you just might be coming around to the fact he is a lot more than just a man.
 
Well, which is it? A man or a life giving wind? Not sure? In your scenario then God himself is just a wind or breath as the bible says he is a SPIRIT and so is the Holy Spirit.
Paul talks in metaphors and allegories. He said Sarah and Hagar were were the two covenants? They were literally people but they represented something else. Jesus' form or substance is that of a man. Metaphorically He is a life giving wind or breath. That's because He has been given the authority to decide who does and does not get eternal life. He has been given the authority to give life, thus a life giving wind or breath
 
1 Co 15:45 "And so it is written, the first man Adam became a living soul; The last Adam (Jesus) BECAME A QUICKENING SPIRIT." First Adam made alive outside the curses of Eden became a living soul. The last perfect MAN Jesus also born outside the curses of Eden (no carnal mind) became a quickening spirit. This verse plainly says what he was and what he BECAME. Not what he will become. The Job/duty/responsibility/joy of the Lord in his capacity as a quickening spirit is to give you life by the Baptism in the Holy Ghost. The only other time Life was given to a man was when God gave it to Jesus at Jordan. And we could all agree that when that baptism occurs we are called new creations. 2Co 5:17, Gal 6:15, and if new creations then how would we still be men? Nothing new in that. As anyone "joined unto the Lord is ONE SPIRIT" not one MAN. 1 Co 6:17

Reposted as it seems you just might be coming around to the fact he is a lot more than just a man.

When a man is made president does he change form? Again, I believe you're importing the English definition into the Greek word pneuma.
 
However, After the crucifixion God did give Him all authority. Now, He makes the decision as to who gets eternal life and who doesn't. So, we can see how now, He is a live giving wind or breath.

Not exactly, Jesus baptizes those whom the Father gives the faith to believe, so the decision is still Gods. And the authority over heaven and earth was given after resurrection
at his glorification.
 
When a man is made president does he change form? Again, I believe you're importing the English definition into the Greek word pneuma.

You really should just put away the books that tell you the words mean something other than what they say it's only causing you confusion.
 
Sorry. Butch5
I only was referring to your “post # 89” only.

because I believe at certain points in “Holy Scripture” Jesus did use “Anthropomorphic words” in this case, the word “buxom” that Jesus used concerning “Lazarus“ denotes a place of safety, warmth, gentleness, a lamb in the arms of the shepherd, in comfort and perfect in Rest at the place in “Sheol” for the believer in Christ.
I believe no one have gone from this world to Heaven yet but Jesus. “Sorry for the miscue”
 
Not exactly, Jesus baptizes those whom the Father gives the faith to believe, so the decision is still Gods. And the authority over heaven and earth was given after resurrection
at his glorification.
God doesn't decide who comes to Christ.
 
You really should just put away the books that tell you the words mean something other than what they say it's only causing you confusion.
I'm not the least bit confused about this. You're taking a figure of speech literally.
 
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