The Rapture

[newname]

That was so funny and stupid. I wanted to convert the whole bunch and I really believed then that God would first save Holland, so I said to them: Fire is gonna fall on Holland! And this one atheist Jewish guy got furious, cause he thought I meant God is gonna destroy Holland. They almost banned him. No no sorry I talk christianese. I mean the fire from the Holy Spirit.

 

[saginon]

We are told those things, Christians have been persecuted and experienced tribulations for their faith over the last 2000 years
I am aware of the scripture quoted my friend, but in the interest of all reading the posts and thread it would be most helpful if you would include the verses and translation you are quoting from. You will notice most of us do this, the majority of scripture quoted you will notice I add as follows...

When someone doesn't declare what translation they use or where the passage is, I figure it out on my own. Translation hardly matters to me anyway, I always used the interlinear and lexicon's to determine what is truly being said. The passage I quoted comes from two passages by Paul.

It is clear here my friend, vengeance will be on the unbelievers, not the saved, those who do not obey the Gospel, thank you for confirming the verse.

Not only unbelievers but those who cause tribulation! That righteous vengeance doesn't come to unbelievers in the form of the aftermath of a rapture where God accidentally kills people. Take a look at how the Lord get's it done, AND WHEN He gets it done!

...since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
You and several others think that the tribulation period is God's vengeance upon unbelievers AFTER believers are removed and that's where we disagree.
You quote...

Revelation 3:10-13 (NKJV)

10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

To keep you from doesn't mean removed from. It means preserved and protected. Like Noah, Daniel, the 3 Hebrew children, and Job, we are protected THROUGH the tribulation and NOT removed from it.

The forum includes believers from milk to meat, and others, as there are so many translations, it is most helpful to all, do you not think, to include verses and Bible translations, sometimes I find translations are not clear enough, but also it is possible to quote scripture from translations which help the writers point of view. I do hope you don't mind we saying this.

I don't care to use the analogy of milk and meat because on forums every body comes across like they have a full plate of meat. I will from now on tell you the translation and the exact passage but I know it won't change your mind because the passage I quoted clearly states that we are to endure tribulation UP TO THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE WHEN THE LORD IS GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS!

This is nonsense my friend, I have never pushed pre-trib to you as the only option, I have only compared the Rapture options, pre, mid, post-trib. When someone says they believe post-trib, because they cannot accept God will not allow none believers to die when the Rapture occurs, it has to be seen both ways as Sue D., myself and others have stated. e.g. Why would God allow believers to suffer the Tribulations, yet as you state God surely wouldn't let none believers suffer.

I didn't say I believe post trib because "I cannot accept God will not allow none believers to die when the Rapture occurs." I believe post trib because that's what Jesus taught in Mathew 24:29 and what Paul taught in 1Thes. 4:15-17. You folks think that it's righteous for God to accidentally kill innocent people - I don't!
For me there appears more sense in pre-trib, or even mid-trib. than there is in post-trib. But NEVER have I said which is the only option, because none of us really knows. God will allow believers to endure the tribulation because Paul said,

"That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto"...and said...

"...we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" and said...

"Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:"

The Lord NEVER removed believers from tribulation - and thank God He didn't remove the cross from His son Jesus the Christ!

Also (get it right!) I never said, "God surely wouldn't let none believers suffer." Don't twist my words! What I said is that God will not accidentally kill people in the aftermath of the rapture, and that the tribulation period is meant for believers and unbelievers alike! God's vengeance comes in the tribulation period to the followers of the Islamic beast. His vengeance toward other unbelievers comes in their judgment.

 

[saginon]

Thank you for confirming Rev 3:10 I had a niggle in my mind but couldn't remember the exact wording and where it was, again thank you.

There are others pre-tribbers use, but I'll let you guys do the homework.

 

[saginon]

@ Beresheet -- According to Scripture -- it doesn't matter if a person believes in the rapture or not --the rapture Will take place. I won't get left Out of the rapture if I've chosen to not believe it will happen. And I won't get taken Up simply because I Do believe in it. Two born-again believers Will both be taken Up simply because they are part of the Church / Bride of Christ / and That is the group that Jesus Christ is coming back To take up with Him. The one believer might be in total shock that he's Up and with Jesus Christ -- but I kind of doubt he / she will be complaining.

The free will is concerning a person's salvation. Whether or not a person is predetermined For being saved. Those who are part of the Elect will accept Christ at some ;point before they die. It's God's Foreknowledge. 'We' do Not have that knowledge. So - as far as 'we' are concerned -- Everyone has free will to accept or reject God's plan for our salvation. John 3:16

The conditions on this earth -- in this world -- are going to get worse and worse -- especially for born-again believers. Persecution has been around for a long, long time. As have trials, tribulations. Out of God's Love for us -- He's going to get born-again believers up and Out. Our 'free will' has Nothing to do with our choosing -- do I want to go Up or stay Here when Jesus Christ Does come back for His Church / His Bride. All born-again believers Will be taken Up to meet Jesus Christ in the air. The dead first and then the living -- all in a split second of time. The twinkling of an eye.

the only reason a born-again believer might be hesitant about the rapture is because they have family or other loved ones who they know aren't born-again. NOW is the time to pray for opportunities To share the Gospel unto salvation. Or bring it up in a nice, loving, caring way. Sharing your concern For their salvation / eternal life's destination. Hopefully 'they' will accept salvation , but if 'they' Don't. Well -- it Is their personal decision. No one can save another person.

What I think transpires is right after the rapture toward the end of the tribulation comes the 'second chance' called the judgment of the sheep and goats. That judgment determines WHO will enter the tribulation, the others are destroyed. So even IF our loved ones are not raptured, they are given an ultimatum, either believe and accept Jesus as reigning king of planet earth or - 'see you later!'

 

[newname]

What I think transpires is right after the rapture toward the end of the tribulation comes the 'second chance' called the judgment of the sheep and goats. That judgment determines WHO will enter the tribulation, the others are destroyed. So even IF our loved ones are not raptured, they are given an ultimatum, either believe and accept Jesus as reigning king of planet earth or - 'see you later!'

But the beginning of the trib is the second chance. Israel gets saved and backslidden believers. Someone said olive trees had 2 harvests. First the easy ones and then the harder ones. In the trib you get the multitude that could not be counted. Then after that wrath for the ones who refuse to convert.
That was also with Jesus. First revival, 40 years time to repent, then Jerusalem destroyed.
The only thing I don't like about pretrib is that we prayed 20 years for revival and then it finally comes and we may not get the harvest in.
I had a dream once that I was in a concentration camp willingly and they would kill us all, but just before that I told em all the gospel and everyone got saved.

 

[newname]

Michael Brown doesn't believe pretrib. He's like: that's unsympathetic to leave and let Israel do the job. But I still see pretrib in Scripture. He can't convince me.

 

[Brother-Paul]

There are others pre-tribbers use, but I'll let you guys do the homework.

Unlike some my friend, I find the Rapture interesting to talk about in connection with other topic, but I am not pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, for me it doesn't matter, it doesn't affect our Salvation, there is nothing we can do or not do that will affect it, it will happen in the twinkling of an eye, when our Lord returns for us.

All I tend to look at with the Rapture is what items can be see differently subject to when it occurs. For example:

_____Pre-Trib__________________Mid-Trib____________________Christ's return to defeat the devil / Post-Trib.

The timing of the Rapture, when ever it happens affects other situations

If the Rapture is Pre-Trib. that is when the saved believers meet with the Lord in the air and go to the 'Current Heaven' with him.

Those left behind are all Lost Souls and will experience 3 1/2 years of Tribulations and 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation.

If the Rapture is Mid-Trib. that is when the saved believers meet with the Lord in the air and go to the 'Current Heaven' with him.
The Saved believers will have experienced the first period of the Tribulation - but are saved from the Great Tribulation .
Those left behind, lost souls will be at the mercy of the anti christ and suffer the terrible woes that come to try get them to turn to God and accept Jesus as their Christ, not the fake, anti christ who deceives many.

If the Rapture is Post-Trib. saved believers will meet with the Lord in the air at Jesus' Return in Great Glory when He defeats the devil and makes all things new.
This option means saved believers and lost souls go through the full 7 years, both experiencing the punishments poured out for none believers to get them to turn to Jesus, the Saved believers have already accepted Jesus so it does not make sense to me. Also it does not make sense to me that saved believers, lets not forget are the church, the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, would have to suffer the terrible woes poured out.

I remain open minded but taking all the facts from scripture Pre-Trib. seems to me the first possibility, at worse I believe it could be Mid-Trib. But I cannot see any reason why saved believers would suffer the tribulation(s), so I cannot image this to be even considered by the Lord our God.

Christ will return in Glory at the end of the Tribulation periods, we all agree, to defeat the devil and remove evil, evil is always considered as none believers who reject God and His one and only Son, The Christ.

I believe in the Rapture, it is in scripture, it will happen, I accept no one knows the timing and scripture does not tell us, except to Warn us, be Ready, Keep Watch, No one knows the day or the hour.

 

[newname]

Unlike some my friend, I find the Rapture interesting to talk about in connection with other topic, but I am not pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, for me it doesn't matter, it doesn't affect our Salvation, there is nothing we can do or not do that will affect it, it will happen in the twinkling of an eye, when our Lord returns for us.

All I tend to look at with the Rapture is what items can be see differently subject to when it occurs. For example:

_____Pre-Trib__________________Mid-Trib____________________Christ's return to defeat the devil / Post-Trib.

The timing of the Rapture, when ever it happens affects other situations

If the Rapture is Pre-Trib. that is when the saved believers meet with the Lord in the air and go to the 'Current Heaven' with him.

Those left behind are all Lost Souls and will experience 3 1/2 years of Tribulations and 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation.

If the Rapture is Mid-Trib. that is when the saved believers meet with the Lord in the air and go to the 'Current Heaven' with him.
The Saved believers will have experienced the first period of the Tribulation - but are saved from the Great Tribulation .
Those left behind, lost souls will be at the mercy of the anti christ and suffer the terrible woes that come to try get them to turn to God and accept Jesus as their Christ, not the fake, anti christ who deceives many.

If the Rapture is Post-Trib. saved believers will meet with the Lord in the air at Jesus' Return in Great Glory when He defeats the devil and makes all things new.
This option means saved believers and lost souls go through the full 7 years, both experiencing the punishments poured out for none believers to get them to turn to Jesus, the Saved believers have already accepted Jesus so it does not make sense to me. Also it does not make sense to me that saved believers, lets not forget are the church, the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, would have to suffer the terrible woes poured out.

I remain open minded but taking all the facts from scripture Pre-Trib. seems to me the first possibility, at worse I believe it could be Mid-Trib. But I cannot see any reason why saved believers would suffer the tribulation(s), so I cannot image this to be even considered by the Lord our God.

Christ will return in Glory at the end of the Tribulation periods, we all agree, to defeat the devil and remove evil, evil is always considered as none believers who reject God and His one and only Son, The Christ.

I believe in the Rapture, it is in scripture, it will happen, I accept no one knows the timing and scripture does not tell us, except to Warn us, be Ready, Keep Watch, No one knows the day or the hour.

That hail throwing on the earth. At least it is mid trib. It makes no sense for a Bridegroom to throw hail on His bride. I have fallen for some jerks, but even they wouldn't do that lol.

 

[saginon]

Michael Brown doesn't believe pretrib. He's like: that's unsympathetic to leave and let Israel do the job. But I still see pretrib in Scripture. He can't convince me.

I agree with him. Why would God remove His Church - His elect during the most troublesome time the earth would ever go through - at a time when believers are most needed? Jesus said,

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Good luck preaching the gospel of the kingdom if the church is removed 7 years before the end comes! (I know just what kind of reply I'll get from pre-tribbers).

 

[newname]

Once I was with the kids in front of a friend's house, playing in the playground. They used me as a free nanny and wouldn't let us in. It rained. Kids could hide in the bike, but I couldn't. I prayed: God let the rain stop.
It stopped immediately and turned to hail LOL.

 

[Brother-Paul]

That hail throwing on the earth. At least it is mid trib. It makes no sense for a Bridegroom to throw hail on His bride. I have fallen for some jerks, but even they wouldn't do that lol.

The massive hail stones are very similar to what happened to Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

Image all the glass buildings, peoples sun lounges and more, these will break through roofs they are that big, they will kill who ever gets hit on the head with them.

There is a lot of fear in the world right now, but these are not the full birth pangs, every year is getting worse, every year will continue to get worse, fear will increase, suicides will increase, pain will increase, pestilences will increase, wickedness will increase.

Thank God for Jesus and our salvation my friend.

 

[newname]

I agree with him. Why would God remove His Church - His elect during the most troublesome time the earth would ever go through - at a time when believers are most needed? Jesus said,

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Good luck preaching the gospel of the kingdom if the church is removed 7 years before the end comes! (I know just what kind of reply I'll get from pre-tribbers).

Hmm yes I always thought that was before the rapture, but Ken Peters saw whole regions get saved during the trib. A guy who brought em to Jesus was not right with God first. So the first lukewarm ones get the harvest in? That's unfair. I don't mind not having my head cut off though, but I don't know. That's a good one.

 

[saginon]

That hail throwing on the earth. At least it is mid trib. It makes no sense for a Bridegroom to throw hail on His bride. I have fallen for some jerks, but even they wouldn't do that lol.

Most things that are mentioned in the Revelation are directed toward unbelievers - especially those who follow the beast and accept his mark. Believers are protected from these things. They are NOT judgments. They are arranged to get unbelievers - especially Muslims, to repent and get out of Islam.

 

[saginon]

Hmm yes I always thought that was before the rapture, but Ken Peters saw whole regions get saved during the trib. A guy who brought em to Jesus was not right with God first. So the first lukewarm ones get the harvest in? That's unfair. I don't mind not having my head cut off though, but I don't know. That's a good one.

I don't accept anything people say when they claim to have "a word from the Lord" or a dream about the end. I really don't understand what you're saying by this...

I always thought that was before the rapture.

And this...

So the first lukewarm ones get the harvest in? That's unfair.

 

[newname]

I don't accept anything people say when they claim to have "a word from the Lord" or a dream about the end. I really don't understand what you're saying by this...

I always thought that was before the rapture.

And this...

So the first lukewarm ones get the harvest in? That's unfair.

The preaching to the whole world, I thought that was before the rapture.
During the trib the uncountable multitude gets saved.
Ken Peters saw whole regions getting saved. He got saved too in that dream. The man who lead him to the Lord was an older man who had not been right with God. He didn't see people raptured, but he saw first the dead raised and then came the antichrist and there was panic because all those ppl were gone. Why would they worry about dead being gone? Sounds like pretrib rapture to me. So then the ones who were ready get raptured and the christians who weren't ready and lukewarm get the harvest in.
He also saw in the 80s that tvs could watch you and he saw a dollar bill that came out some years ago.

 

[saginon]

The preaching to the whole world, I thought that was before the rapture.

Why would that be true? The pre-trib rapture would not be the end of anything because it's not the end of the age. The "whole world" in verse 14 does mean the entire inhabited earth.

The word ALL in verse 14 is 'holos' and it does mean the entirety of the whole.
The word world in verse 14 is 'oikoumenē' and it impies the inhabited earth.
The word end is 'telos' and that's the same word for 'end' used here...

KJV
Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

You will never convince me that the END is seven years BEFORE the END!

The END doesn't come until the very end - the consummation of the age, and the gospel will continue to be preached throughout the tribulation regardless how long it is. The question Jesus was answering was "what shall be the sign of thy coming and the consummation of the age? Mathew 24 is mostly chronological. He mentions the gathering occurring AFTER the tribulation in verse 29, and the gospel being preached throughout the world in verse 23.

 

[newname]

Why would that be true? The pre-trib rapture would not be the end of anything because it's not the end of the age. The "whole world" in verse 14 does mean the entire inhabited earth.

The word ALL in verse 14 is 'holos' and it does mean the entirety of the whole.
The word world in verse 14 is 'oikoumenē' and it impies the inhabited earth.
The word end is 'telos' and that's the same word for 'end' used here...

KJV
Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

You will never convince me that the END is seven years BEFORE the END!

The END doesn't come until the very end - the consummation of the age, and the gospel will continue to be preached throughout the tribulation regardless how long it is. The question Jesus was answering was "what shall be the sign of thy coming and the consummation of the age? Mathew 24 is mostly chronological. He mentions the gathering occurring AFTER the tribulation in verse 29, and the gospel being preached throughout the world in verse 23.

How I read it:
wars etc, persecution. That's now. I won't be surprised if there comes more persecution in the rich West, but maybe not, cause He's not too friendly to Laodicea that has no persecution.
But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come:
Rapture.
Then comes the end.
Antichrist vs 15
great trib
and then Jesus comes back[/FONT][/SIZE]

 

[newname]

Watch, because you don't know when your Lord comes. If the antichrist sits in the holy place, you don't have to watch anymore. You can count the days from Daniel til Jesus comes back.
Matthew 25:
5 Virgins go in who are ready, the door closes. If the ac is there you either take his sign or not. Then you can't just sleep and notice nothing and marry and eat and beat up the servants as a pastor. You're forced to chose God or not.

 

[saginon]

How I read it:
wars etc, persecution. That's now. I won't be surprised if there comes more persecution in the rich West, but maybe not, cause He's not too friendly to Laodicea that has no persecution.
But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come:
Rapture.
Then comes the end.
Antichrist vs 15
great trib
and then Jesus comes back[/FONT][/SIZE]

The end of what? You do know that 2 Thes. 2 clearly states that the 'man of sin' is revealed BEFORE the gathering?

 

[saginon]

Watch, because you don't know when your Lord comes. If the antichrist sits in the holy place, you don't have to watch anymore. You can count the days from Daniel til Jesus comes back.
Matthew 25:
5 Virgins go in who are ready, the door closes. If the ac is there you either take his sign or not. Then you can't just sleep and notice nothing and marry and eat and beat up the servants as a pastor. You're forced to chose God or not.

Here's the problem with that.

The Christian world believes in an enormous amount false eschatology, and I blame it all on the many high profile prophecy experts who teach -pre-trib - a one world government and religion - a global mark of the beast - the rebuilding of a Jewish temple - a 'peace treaty' - and so on. Then they tie in the EU and the Pope and disregard everything else! They don't care if there's a mountain of evidence AGAINST what they believe - they're going to continue believing what they want anyway! Why? Because the words, "I was wrong" doesn't exist is the vocabulary of most Christians.

None of that is going to pass. So what am I getting at? In your previous reply you placed the rapture BEFORE the revelation of the man of sin. Here you're saying that if we see the anti-Christ sit in the holy place, we don't have to watch anymore. Well, the holy place is not a Jewish temple and the anti-Christ is NOT a global dictator. You see, so many people believe these 'prophecy experts' and they've accepted the teachings of these prophecy expert intellectuals 'line, hook, and sinker.' It's as though they don't research things on their own, and when they do, they approach their studies only to reinforce what they already believe.