THE CURRENT HEAVEN

[Curtis]

Philippians 1:23
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

Dave, these are good questions, and if someone else was saying the same things I have been saying in this thread I would use the exact same scriptures in response

The Apostle Paul was fully aware of what it meant to be "in Christ", as opposed to "Christ being in him". Being in Christ Paul knew he was always in the Fathers presence because he was the one who revealed to us in scripture that "we were raised with Christ and are sitting in Heavenly places in Christ." (Eph 2:6) This was the same person who said that he would come to visions and revelations of the Lord, and when did he could not tell if he was still in his body, or out of the body. (2 Cor 12:2-3)

Paul also understood that his physical body could never allow him to gain access to God's Heavenly Kingdom because it is tied to, and limited to this earth only.

Jesus knew that his Father was in Heaven, but also knew and understood that it was his Father inside himself that was speaking through, and performing the works that Jesus did. God in Heaven, and on earth reconciling the world unto himself. Jesus told us that his Father was inside him, and he was inside his Father all at the same time.

No difference with Christ being in us, and we being in him all at the same time. We being in Heaven and on earth. On earth, our bodies are separated from God in Heaven above, but thank God we walk by "faith", and not by "sight". If we keep walking by our physical senses of the flesh we will always seem to separate from God. As long as we are at home in the body (walking in the flesh) we are away from the Lord, but we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit where we can come into his presence at any time while living in a fleshly body.

When our physical body dies so do all of our physical senses that could never come in contact with the Lord. Paul desired to depart from his body so that he could enjoy his unbroken fellowship with God without any hindrance of his flesh.

 

[Curtis]

John 14:1-31
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?

We must remember that Jesus said this before his death, burial, and resurrection.

This is a very interesting statement when Jesus said he would come back so we could be where he is. Further, in the same chapter, Jesus tells his Apostles that he would not leave them alone....

John 14:18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 14:19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

Ever wonder how in the world will his Apostles see him when he comes back, but not the world? Wouldnt you think the rapture or second coming of Jesus would be thousands of years way after the Apostles were dead and gone? How could they see Jesus, and not the world?

The Apostles did not have a clue to what he was saying to them!

John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Another translation says it this way....

John 14:23 Jesus replied: If anyone loves me, they will obey me. Then my Father will love them, and we will come to them and live in them. (CEV)

If Jesus lives inside us, then when did he come back, and how can we see him?

2Co 3:18 And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit.

We see the Glory of God inside of us, and that is what a "mirror" does, it reflects what is inside us.

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

We are supposed to be seeing Jesus crowned with Glory and honor inside us!!!

Then the ultimate test to see if we are truly living by "faith" we are to test our selves.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Jesus has made a place for us by making room in us for himself!

 

[Brother-Paul]

When a person dies their physical body goes into the ground. Their spirit, stays where it has always been in Christ. The Bible tells us that, "we have been raised with Christ in his resurrection, and we are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ."

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
A person can NOT seek the things that are above unless you are already above where these things are that we are suppose to seek!

The resurrection of the spirit, and the body are two separate events. Our spirit is with Christ being in him, and at the same time Christ is in us. The natural man with its fleshly mind can not receive things because they are foolishness to him neither can know them because they are only spiritually understood. (1 Cor 2:14)

Most believers do not believe this because it makes no sense at all to the physical carnal brain. No body can experience this in their life unless they first "believe it"!

Greetings brother,

I am not one hundred percent convinced with what you are saying, allow me to add an alternative consideration.

When we are born again, the spirit of Christ dwells in us, we as saved believers we abide in Him and He in us, if He has entered out heart we are lifted up from where we were to 'in heavenly places' 'in Christ Jesus'

Romans 8:9 (NKJV)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Galatians 4:6 (NKJV)
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

1 Peter 1:10-11 (NKJV)
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Each of these verses, and others, refer to the Spirit 'coming', 'was in them', 'dwells in you',

So looking at what you have listed, thanks you for listing the verses,

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

We are raised up with Him, who is in our heart, in heavenly places.
Thy Kingdom 'come', thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

When Christ's Spirit in us, we are raised up, our spirit is raised up in our heart, the spirit quickens us to seek the 'things above'.
If we were in heaven we would not seek the things above as we would already be in heaven.

Therefore Christ's Spirit enters our hearts, the second we are 'born again', made new, become new creations. His Spirit remains in the saved believers heart until the first death, when a person dies on earth, at which point the body returns to the dust, and the spirit and soul go to 'Current Heaven' to be with the Lord.

If the Rapture occurs before a person dies, the spirit and soul go to be with then Lord, the body either goes back to dust, although scripture does not say this, or it disappears into thin air. Again this happens into the 'Current Heaven'.

This is an alternative view to that you put forward brother, but I feel it is a more realist view for several reasons.

- we cannot seek the things above if we are already in heaven, as God is in the 'highest heaven'
- scripture clearly says, the spirit coming, was in them and dwells in you and me.
- Christ's work on earth was incomplete, we are the workers to do His work until He returns, therefore He puts His Spirit in every saved soul heart and raises our spirits, in heavenly places in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

I thought at one point this topic was drifting away a little, as it happens it hasn't, the continued discussion was important and clearly shows that what we have discussed relates to the Current Heaven.

I will sum up the conversation in this topic in the next few days, then I can create a new, linked thread, for the New Heaven/New Earth, the Saved believers Eternal Home, I know we are all looking forward to the discussion

In His Love

 

[Brother-Paul]

Dave, these are good questions, and if someone else was saying the same things I have been saying in this thread I would use the exact same scriptures in response

The Apostle Paul was fully aware of what it meant to be "in Christ", as opposed to "Christ being in him". Being in Christ Paul knew he was always in the Fathers presence because he was the one who revealed to us in scripture that "we were raised with Christ and are sitting in Heavenly places in Christ." (Eph 2:6) This was the same person who said that he would come to visions and revelations of the Lord, and when did he could not tell if he was still in his body, or out of the body. (2 Cor 12:2-3)

Paul also understood that his physical body could never allow him to gain access to God's Heavenly Kingdom because it is tied to, and limited to this earth only.

Jesus knew that his Father was in Heaven, but also knew and understood that it was his Father inside himself that was speaking through, and performing the works that Jesus did. God in Heaven, and on earth reconciling the world unto himself. Jesus told us that his Father was inside him, and he was inside his Father all at the same time.

No difference with Christ being in us, and we being in him all at the same time. We being in Heaven and on earth. On earth, our bodies are separated from God in Heaven above, but thank God we walk by "faith", and not by "sight". If we keep walking by our physical senses of the flesh we will always seem to separate from God. As long as we are at home in the body (walking in the flesh) we are away from the Lord, but we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit where we can come into his presence at any time while living in a fleshly body.

When our physical body dies so do all of our physical senses that could never come in contact with the Lord. Paul desired to depart from his body so that he could enjoy his unbroken fellowship with God without any hindrance of his flesh.

Good post @Dave M

 

[Brother-Paul]

Not true, they are changed from a natural body to a spiritual body. (1 Cor 15:44)

I agree @B-A-C

The Current Heaven includes one physical body, Christ Jesus, it includes God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. If we have seen me, you have seen the Father, Jesus said to the disciples. Jesus is God, He is in the Current Heaven, He sends His Spirit into the hearts of saved believers, so that His unfinished work can be done through us, we are made new, born again.

The Current Heaven includes the spirit and souls of all saved believers for at least 2000 years, which includes those of the martyrs under the alter who cry out in the Current Heaven, 'How Long O Lord...'

The Current Heaven will remain until Christ Returns in Glory, defeats the devil, and makes all things new, then we will get our new resurrected bodies.

 

[B-A-C]

John 7:33; Therefore Jesus said, "For a little while longer I am with you, then I go to Him who sent Me.

We aren't "with" Him in heaven right now.

Rom 6:8; Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

But it doesn't say that we already are living with Him.

Eph 2:6; (AMPC) And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

The "heavenly sphere" is not heaven. It is the kingdom of heaven of Earth.

1 Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

.."will bring".. not already has brought. This letter to the Thessalonians was written decades after Jesus was resurrected.

2 Tim 2:11; It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

..."we will live"... not we already do live with Him.

Rev 3:21; 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

After we "overcome" then we can be with Jesus. How did Jesus overcome? By His physical body dying.

John 5:25; "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
John 5:26; "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
John 5:27; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

.. an hour will come... the "same hour" for everyone. The wicked and the righteous, when "the dead" Those who aren't physically alive anymore.
Will hear His voice and rise from the tombs. The evil get resurrected at the same time the righteous do.

John 16:7; "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

The Holy Spirit came after Jesus went back to heaven. The Holy Spirit is with us. We aren't with Jesus yet.

No human is in heaven before they die. God and the angels aren't humans.

 

[Curtis]

John 7:33; Therefore Jesus said, "For a little while longer I am with you, then I go to Him who sent Me.

We aren't "with" Him in heaven right now.

This kind of thinking is the results of not understanding the difference between being "in Christ", and "Christ in me"

Jesus understood it, and so did Paul. Jesus said......

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Jesus was going to go back to the one sent him while at the same time his father had always been with him by being in him!
Did God the father leave Heaven to be in his Son? If Jesus lives inside his father, and his Father in him then Jesus was still in Heaven at the same time he was on earth with his father in him!

The only way to reconcile this is to know that the Kingdom of Heaven was inside Jesus, which is now inside us! We are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ in Heaven in us!

 

[Curtis]

Rom 6:8; Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

But it doesn't say that we already are living with Him.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These are all past tense, not future tense events that will happen one day. This is what it means to be "in Christ"

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Is Jesus sitting on the right hand of God in Heaven? Is Jesus in his Fathers presence right now? Where does it say we are?

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Obviously the word "If" requires you to believe something, and is conditional if you want to experience them today!
If you do not believe it now then someday you will once you do you will be able to experience it. This also has to do with being "in Christ"

 

[Curtis]

No human is in heaven before they die. God and the angels aren't humans.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Nobody can be in Christ unless they have died on the cross with Jesus!

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Nobody can be sitting in Heavenly places in Christ unless they have already died!

 

[Curtis]

I am not one hundred percent convinced with what you are saying, allow me to add an alternative consideration.

When we are born again, the spirit of Christ dwells in us, we as saved believers we abide in Him and He in us, if He has entered out heart we are lifted up from where we were to 'in heavenly places' 'in Christ Jesus'

Romans 8:9 (NKJV)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Galatians 4:6 (NKJV)
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

1 Peter 1:10-11 (NKJV)
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Paul, we must always remember that the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God the Father are not the same person even though the are "one God" If Jesus lives in us then so also does God the Father, and the Holy Spirit because Jesus is the Body of God who contains all of the fullness of God head bodily!

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Notice that all the "fullness" of the Godhead lives, and dwells in Jesus Christ "bodily"

God's body is Jesus Christ (the Word of God) that became flesh and is now a life giving spirit. (not the Holy Spirit)

1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (ESV)

Jesus is not the Holy Spirit but if you have Jesus in you then you also have ALL of the Godhead inside you!

That is very cool, but the next verse if just as good.......

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Not only is God complete inside you, you are also complete inside him!! It is impossible to be in Christ and not be where he is at any time, and it is also impossible for you to be anywhere without him being with you!

You body was made for the Lord to be his temple! (1 Cor 6:13)

The ultimate "test" for you to know if you are really living by faith is this.....

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

 

[Curtis]

- we cannot seek the things above if we are already in heaven, as God is in the 'highest heaven'

You can seek the things above unless you are above where these things are that we are suppose to seek! It would pretty cruel of the Lord to tell us to do something that we could not possibly do.
This is why the scripture said.....

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

 

[Curtis]

1 Peter 1:10-11 (NKJV)
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Each of these verses, and others, refer to the Spirit 'coming', 'was in them', 'dwells in you',

This complete scripture is referring to the "old Testament" Prophets. They were never born again to be able to understand what they prophesied about which is why they kept searching what, or what manner of time this was all going to happen. Later on in the next verse it says......

1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

The prophets did not understand what they prophesied about, but they wanted to know. God told them it was not them to know, but only for our generation the Church today. Even angels want to know what we know!

 

[Brother-Paul]

You can seek the things above unless you are above where these things are that we are suppose to seek! It would pretty cruel of the Lord to tell us to do something that we could not possibly do.
This is why the scripture said.....

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

But if Christ puts His Spirit in our hearts, we are given a taste of heaven whilst on earth, we are told to, seek the things above. We are on earth in the first heaven, God is in the third heaven, therefore we seek the things which are 'above'. Above the first heaven, the second heaven to the third heaven. We seek them through Jesus, whose spirit is in out hearts, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

If I am in the third heaven, I am already raised up into heavenly places. We are to look forward to our future home, many refer only to the New Heaven/New Earth, but for saved souls dying before the rapture we have a temporary home, with Jesus, in the Current Heaven. We continue to look forward to our final home in Eternity in the New Heaven/New Earth.

I agree the prophets didn't understand, there was so much they couldn't understand, to one was told one prophesy, to another prophet another prophesy, like jig saw pieces, each one part of the picture but not the full story. Out of Egypt I will call my son, the Christ will be born in Bethlehem, just one simple example.

 

[Curtis]

If I am in the third heaven, I am already raised up into heavenly places.

Brother Paul, this is not an easy concept to understand because it makes no logical analytical sense to the fleshly mind. It is not suppose to make logical sense because it is not logical, but spiritual understanding. With my physical mind I can understand the future of the Kingdom of God that will come down out of Heaven one day to this earth, but with my physical mind I can not grasp the reality of where Jesus has already brought me to in his resurrection, which includes my resurrection with him. What the Lord God has done is exceeding, abundantly above all we could ever ask or think, as it is beyond human knowledge. (Eph 3:17-21)

When Bible says that God has already "glorified" us (Romans 8:30) that is not a future tense event that will happen one day. It is a past tense reality that can only be grasped with the spiritual mind of Christ that never needs renewing, unlike the carnal mind.

Our spiritual growth into the image of Christ happens as we learn who, and where we are in his Kingdom. We are suppose to be growing into the man we already are in Christ not what we are going to be some day!

 

[Brother-Paul]

***************************************

THE CURRENT HEAVEN

***************************************

SUMMING UP OF DISCUSSIONS

***************************************

The aim of this thread was to discuss together what the ‘Current Heaven’ is like. So many books and commentaries regarding Heaven jump straight to the Eternal Heaven, the New Heaven/New Earth, but for thousands of years people have died and gone to the ‘Current Heaven’ or the ‘Current Hell’

Our study together looks mainly at what happens to a Saved believer when they die and go to Heaven, firstly up to the Rapture and secondly from the Rapture to Christ’s Return in Glory to defeat the devil and make all things new.

Some may say, does it matter we as saved believers are going to our Eternal home at Christ’s final Return anyway. I felt it does matter, scripture encourages us to look forward to being with our Lord in Heaven, and as we will have loved ones and friend in heaven now, isn’t it right to know how it is for them, and how it will be for us, if we die before the Rapture or Christ’s Return in Glory.

We also noted scripture verses many use who do not know what happens and fob off the subject telling people we will not know till we get there. These are listed in post #31

Another common negative statement is that some say, I have heard many people (Christians and unbelievers a like) say if this earth is the current heaven, I'm not sure I want to go there. How they misunderstand the Current Heaven, the Current Earth and what the future New Heaven/New Earth will be like.

At the beginning or our study together it was considered that, we could be opening a can of worms, but if we are considering what has happened to our loved ones who have gone to be with the Lord surely this would not be an issue. The point was also raised that the term Current Heaven is not in the scriptures, although a good point for discussion it was soon agreed scripture clearly shows our future home is in the New Heaven/New Earth and things at the stage Jesus returns in Glory change, the Current Heaven was a valid consideration worth studying.

Having clarified the initial concerns we moved forward and started to consider, are people and things in the Current Heaven, spiritual or physical, or both. It was an interesting debate.

Consideration was given to the book called Heaven, by Randy Alcorn, the only person to my knowledge that has tackled this topic head on with scripture. He clearly shows in his book that it seems there are probably physical and spiritual people and or items in the Current Heaven, with scripture verses used to confirm every stage. Several of us would certainly recommend the book, it covers far more that we have in this study together.

To start the study we focused on John’s Revelation of when he was, in the spirit, invited into the Current Heaven, and told to write down the things he saw and heard. But like all items in scriptures, especially a topic such as this many other scriptures were considered, all listed in this topic for those who want to follow through the studies, what seemed right at one point and other scriptures added to it later like building a large jigsaw puzzle.

We discussed so many items together, starting with and defining the three heavens as stated in scripture.

We looked at the creation of man, how God created him from the dust of the earth, at which point he had no life in hi, this was followed by God breathing into man the breath of life, at that point he became a living being, consisting of body, spirit and soul.

We discussed together what happens when saved believers, men or women die the first death, their spirit and soul goes to be with the Lord in the Current Heaven. Their body goes back to the dust of the earth.

First we considered these things up to the rapture, and then followed to consider what happened between the rapture and Christ’s Return in Glory to defeat the devil and make all things new. The reason this was considered separately so we could consider together what happens at the rapture, e.g. does the spirit and soul come together with the was Lord in the air, or was it spirit, soul and body. We concluded it was a spiritual coming together, the rapture not being the final resurrection. This concluded therefore that there is no difference to what happens to a saved believer who dies before Christ’s final return.

There included a discussion regarding the rapture and when it would take place, pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. The pre-tribulation rapture was ruled out as the "man of perdition" will be revealed before the rapture, falling away and tribulation begins. This would point to a mid-tribulation rapture.

We discussed Jesus on the cross and when He gave up His Spirit, plus the dying thief that cried out to Jesus and Jesus’ reply was ‘today you will be with me in Paradise. Current Heaven. We also followed through to Christ’s Resurrection and the stages of His body to that time.

It was then time to move on with our study in the Current Heaven and consider the spiritual and physical people in the Current Heaven and the physical items mentioned, scriptures quoted in this thread for all items considered.

Question – are there physical people in the Current Heaven. We agreed Jesus had a physical body when He was resurrected. But there could also be Moses, Elijah and Enoch. What about the Martyrs John saw under the altar in Heaven, they were crying out loud to the Lord, they seemed physical. And a great multitude was seen.

Regarding physical items in the Current Heaven many are mentioned in scriptures and confirmed by Randy Alcorn in his book Heaven. We discussed a few that seemed to fit the physical nature, e.g. the white robes on the martyrs, the palm branches that were waved, etc.

A lot more was discussed, certainly more than I realised until I came to sum up the study. Thanks all who have taken part; I hope you found it as interesting as I have.

IS THERE A CONCLUSION?

• The Current Heaven will continue until Christ’s Return in Glory to defeat the devil and make all things new.
• The timing of the Rapture makes no difference to what happens in the Current or Future Eternal Heaven
• 
  
• The spirit and soul of the saved believer goes to the Current Heaven and body goes back to dust of the earth.
• The only exception being at the Rapture, the gathering together of the Spirit and soul of saved believers, the dust appears to disintegrate.
• 
  
• Are here physical people in heaven? Jesus yes, possibly Moses, Elijah and Enoch.
• Are there physical items in the Current Heaven? It appears there could be.
• 
  
• So will we be spiritual or physical in the Current Heaven? We will be Spiritual

So why does it seem they could be physical?

It would appear that what John saw in the Current Heaven, that looked physical, were the ‘living souls’ of the saved that are in Heaven. We know little about souls but scripture says and repeats the souls return to heaven with the spirit. SEE Post #66 which looked at the Greek word soul, the soul being the immortal part of the body, and Strong’s Greek dictionary states, Soul, Living Soul.

It therefore seems probable that what John saw, that looked real, was the spirit of the martyrs and their ‘living souls’.

Paul also made a similar statement, also listed in the study, that he didn’t know if he was in the spirit or the physical at the time.

I thank everyone for taking part in the study, there are still items we cannot be sure of until we get to the Current Heaven, and will no doubt continue to be differences of opinion in some points discussed. But I think it was a worthwhile study, made hard probably because few have actually spent time studying it.

It has been hard to keep this topic to the Current Heaven from drifting to our Eternal Home in the New Heaven/New Earth, understandably, as we are looking forward to a new heaven/new earth, new resurrected bodies, visiting the New Jerusalem that comes down from the Current Heaven, which will have the tree of life, the restored garden of Eden, no darkness, no crying, no weeping, no pain, no suffering, chance to find our loved ones and friends and most of all time with our Lord.

A New Post will be created shortly, for our discussions on the New Heaven/New Earth and our resurrected bodies and eternal life. I will link these to topics to each other so anyone reading can cross reference as they wish.

In His Love

brother-paul

 

[Dave M]

reading revelation this morning and this thread popped into my thoughts,

I was reading about the birds which seems to be described as physical come down from heaven and eat the flesh of those who go against the saints at the end of the 1,000 rule of Christ.

 

[Sue D.]

Dave M -- I was just looking for that -- where do you find it?

 

[Curtis]

Dave M -- I was just looking for that -- where do you find it?

Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.”

 

[B-A-C]

When Jesus comes back.. every eye will see Him. Not just believers.

Rev 1:7; BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Also the New Jerusalem doesn't come down to the Earth until Satan is defeated. That hasn't happened yet.
Also when Jesus comes back He will reign over the whole Earth "with a rod of iron". That hasn't happened yet.

Matt 24:27; "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.