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THE CURRENT HEAVEN

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THE CURRENT HEAVEN


Recently we have been discussing what heaven was like, in doing so it is easy to mix which heaven we are talking about. But you may say, there is only one heaven that is true, well not exactly.
  • Questions:

  • - When we talk of heaven, what do we mean?

  • - When we talk of heaven what do we visualise?
- Do we see heaven as the world portrays it, or as scripture tells us?

- Where is heaven?

As discussed in the thread ‘What is Heaven Like’

What is Heaven Like?

We agreed scripture says there are 3 heavens.

1 – our atmosphere is the first heaven

2 – the universe is the second heaven

Both these are polluted with sin

3 – is the farthest Heaven, it is where God chooses to be, it is God's abode.

It is where God is, it is where Jesus is now, He is sat at the right hand of the Father.

It is a Holy place, free from sin and the curse, a place we cannot enter as humans.


We need to consider the following differences:

i - what is it like in heaven now, the current heaven, and
ii - what is it like in the Eternal Heaven after Jesus returns and restores all things.

To clearly understand the differences, based on scripture not worldly speculation, we will look at the two separately, starting first with this thread. ‘The Current Heaven’

Later a new thread will be created and we can discuss together the Eternal Heaven, there are specific differences so we will take them one at a time.

Please do join in the study, as we did in the thread ‘What is Heaven like’. Try not to add details of the Eternal Heaven; let us try keeping this study to the Current Heaven.

Let us pray the Holy Spirit will guide our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus our Lord and reveal the Truth in God’s Word to us all. In Jesus Name. Amen.

Topic: The Current Heaven.
 
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Prior to the Eternal Heaven, when Jesus return in Glory, defeats the devil and restores Heaven and earth and we get our glorified bodies, things in what I will call ‘the current heaven’ are different. It is important we understand this now to save confusion later or between the two. There is so many worldly views which are so wrong.

Here are a few questions to consider regarding the current heaven

1 - Where do humans go when we die?

2 – Are there any resurrected people in the current heaven?

3 – Are all people in the current heaven, resurrected or spirits?

These three questions are just a start of our discussions and study, let us cover these first then move on. Please consider when adding comments we are all at different levels of understand and worldly views have influenced many and give people a totally wrong views and wrong ideas what heaven really is, who is there, who goes there and who doesn’t.

Please include scripture to support you replies.

May our Lord’s Blessing be received gracefully, bring Glory to God through Jesus Christ our precious Lord and Saviour. In His Name. Amen
 
Loyal
This is a great subject. It is a can of worms, and it seems few people agree on all of it, but it is an interesting study.

I do wonder if the current heaven still 100% clean and holy. Satan was cast out of there. It seems a third of the angels went with him.
In Revelation it says there either was a war in heaven in the past, or will be a war in heaven in the future. ( Rev 12:7; )

As far as the resurrection, it seems there is little agreement on what that even is. :smile:
I personally believe Jesus is the only resurrected person in heaven right now. ( John 5:28-29, John 11:24; 1 Thes 4:16; etc.. )

Finally there is the question of where we end up. There is no verse in the Bible that says we go to heaven.
It says some will reign on the Earth, it says some will go to the New Jerusalem, it says some will go to my Fathers house where there are many dwelling places (mansions). ( John 14:2; ) Rev 5:10;
But it appears the Father will be in the New Jerusalem at that time. ( Rev 21:3; )

Some people believe the New Jerusalem is (or will become) Heaven. But the Bible says the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven. ( Rev 21:2;, Rev 21:10; )

The Bible says Elijah was taken up to heaven. 2 King 2:11; but I don't believe he is in his "resurrected" body yet. Gen 5:24; says God took Enoch (it doesn't specifically say he went to heaven).

In 2 Cor 12:2; it appears Paul is speaking about himself. He didn't even know if he was in body or in spirit.
 
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@B-A-C
Interesting start brother, including scripture and an open mind.

It is a debatable topic, hence the topic for debate. Can of worms, I think that depends on a persons view and can be based on worldly views, even misguided information form ministers at times.

We should not expect to get all answers, if we do we will be disappointed, but as a scriptural discussion, clearly distinguishing between what happens in the Current Heaven and separately in the Eternal Heaven we will have a Biblical view, and hopefully many over time will have answers to there wrong beliefs or uncertainties.

We are not looking at a human sat on a cloud strumming a harp that's for sure.

Thank you again for your comments and for helping starting the topic, which we will all share in together, or at least those who want to.

Bless you brother.
 
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This is a great subject. It is a can of worms, and it seems few people agree on all of it, but it is an interesting study.

I do wonder if the current heaven still 100% clean and holy. Satan was cast out of there. It seems a third of the angels went with him.
In Revelation it says there either was a war in heaven in the past, or will be a war in heaven in the future. ( Rev 12:7; )

As far as the resurrection, it seems there is little agreement on what that even is. :smile:
I personally believe Jesus is the only resurrected person in heaven right now. ( John 5:28-29, John 11:24; 1 Thes 4:16; etc.. )

Finally there is the question of where we end up. There is no verse in the Bible that says we go to heaven.
It says some will reign on the Earth, it says some will go to the New Jerusalem, it says some will go to my Fathers house where there are many dwelling places (mansions). ( John 14:2; ) Rev 5:10;
But it appears the Father will be in the New Jerusalem at that time. ( Rev 21:3; )

Some people believe the New Jerusalem is (or will become) Heaven. But the Bible says the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven. ( Rev 21:2;, Rev 21:10; )

The Bible says Elijah was taken up to heaven. 2 King 2:11; but I don't believe he is in his "resurrected" body yet. Gen 5:24; says God took Enoch (it doesn't specifically say he went to heaven).

In 2 Cor 12:2; it appears Paul is speaking about himself. He didn't even know if he was in body or in spirit.
One comment here brother which is why this topic is being studied separately to the Eternal Heaven.

When we quote scripture regarding those raising on the last day, or when we consider scripture for Christ's second coming, to defeat the devil and make all things new, etc. we are moving away from the Current Heaven to the Eternal Heaven, it is very important we keep to the current heaven so as to make clear all the differences. Once we remove scripture quotes related to Christ's second coming and look only at just scripture relating to the current heaven we will have a clearer picture. This will help tremendously when we look at the Eternal Heaven. There are many different situations to look at though they both be heaven, both God's abode.

I hope you do not mind me adding this my friend quite a few of the scripture verses above relate to Christ's Return in Glory, He has then left the current heaven.

May the Lord Bless you brother.
 
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This is a great subject. It is a can of worms, and it seems few people agree on all of it, but it is an interesting study.
In my prayers before starting the subject I felt this topic could be, as you say, a can of worms. My heart was concerned for those who have lost loved ones, as so many untruths can be told in the name of 'compassion'. I felt at peace brother, because what we will discuss here is the differences between the Current Heaven, later in a new thread we will discuss the Eternal Heaven, yes we are discussing where do we go why we die, but again I feel at peace, many times on here the discussion is covered, we are Saved or we are not, so it makes no difference to the topic we will discuss, but I do feel it would be nice to know, I also feel many would like to know, when our loved ones die where they actually go, where we will actually go if we die prior to the Rapture, are we spirits or what form do we have until we are resurrected to the New Heaven/New Earth.

Thanks for mentioning this important consideration brother.
 
Loyal
1 - Where do humans go when we die?
------------ if we are saved I would have to say heaven, as it says home with the lord when away from the body. but it also says that Jesus returns with all his saints if he returns with us, I just have to think we would be with him in heaven ,( although other versions says holly ones, some might say they are angels).
--------------
2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Zechariah 14:5
and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
 
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Can I ask s question to clarify? By 'current heaven', do you mean the state between death and the final resurrection?

Quite keen to join in the conversation, but want to make sure I've not got the wrong end of the stick .
 
Active
Good question, some would say "the place were God is". .. and where is that? :smile:
Thanks @B-A-C I'm only asking for the purposes of this conversation, not raising a theological point. The phrase current heaven doesn't appear in the translations of the bible I use, so I want to make sure I'm not talking at cross-purposes with anybody else.
 
Loyal
I know @Brother-Paul wants to focus on the "pre new heaven". So even though the phrase "current heaven" may not appear in the Bible.
There are several verses that talk about a new heaven.

Rev 21:1; Isa 65:17; Isa 66:22; 2 Pet 3:13; I think we have to discuss these verses somewhat, in order to establish there is an "old" (current) heaven.

Jesus speaks of the "old" (current) heaven and Earth passing away.
Matt 5:18; Matt 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 16:17; Luke 21:33;

Peter mentions it also
2 Pet 3:10;
 
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Can I ask s question to clarify? By 'current heaven', do you mean the state between death and the final resurrection?

Quite keen to join in the conversation, but want to make sure I've not got the wrong end of the stick .
@Hekuran and All

Greetings brother it is good to get things certain at this stage as it helps us all sing off the same hymn sheet.

Yes we are, in this thread, discussing the 'Current Heaven', it is the same place whether we are dead in Christ or alive on earth now. We are to discuss and share together stage by stage hopefully, various aspects of what Heaven is like now, up to God commanding Jesus to Return in Glory, defeat the devil, and the final resurrection. So we are considering the Current Heaven up to the Rapture (we will call here Christ's First Coming), the when He leaves Heaven as stated (we will call His second coming). Again so we are all singing the same hymn.

Bless you brother, it is a subject rarely studied, Saved believers usually look for the Final Resurrection, we will discuss that in a separate thread after this then link them together. It is a very interesting subject, and one that one would believe we should all be yearning to understand and know about.

- If we die before Christ's Return(s), what is Heaven like for us?
- If we are Raptured, what is Heaven like?
- What happens if we die during the Great Tribulation period and in that period we have repented and accepted Christ, possibly even martyred.

But let us not rush ahead, lets all talk about the basics of 'The Current Heaven' and hopefully get a discussion running.

It is important as many brothers and sisters join in the discussions, we will need knowledge, but also must have an opened mind and not expect answers to everything, there is quite a bit we can discuss as we progress, at the end we should all have gained something, me included as I have only a partial knowledge of what we are to share together. Should the Lord call us home tomorrow we will know what to expect, should we be Raptured this coming week we will know what to expect, when we say O Come Lord Jesus we will know where we will go this side of Christ's Return and The Final Resurrection.

Let us lay this topic at the Lord's feet in Prayer, and prayer the Truth in God's Word, directly or indirectly will be revealed as we fellowship together in His Name. In Jesus Name we pray. Amen

Let us first get the picture as John saw it and was told to write it down...

Revelation 4:1-11 (NKJV)
1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."
2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.
3 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.
4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.
5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back.
7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle.
8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!"
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 "You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created."

Revelation 5:1-14 (NKJV)
1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?"
3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.
5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."
6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

Revelation 15:3-4 (NKJV)
3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested."

Here are a few questions to consider regarding the current heaven

Initial Questions:

1 - Where do humans go when we die?

2 – Are there any resurrected people in the current heaven?

3 – Are all, or some, people in the current heaven, resurrected or spirits?
 
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Good question, some would say "the place were God is". .. and where is that? :smile:
Greetings brother.

We are told there are three Heavens, as previously discussed

1 - The earths atmosphere
2 - The universe, outer space
3 - The third Heaven, that is where God is, where I don't think we can say but would it be right to assume it is beyond outer space, it is where no living human will get to, it is the only of the three Heavens mentioned that is not polluted by sin, God created it all, He not only knows these things, He knew man would eventually enter space and pollute that as well as earth.

Would that be a fair answer do you think, or do you see it differently. As stated we will not get direct answers to everything, but we can get some answers,and can get feasible ideas to our questions from various scriptural comparisons.

Bless you brother.
 
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1 - Where do humans go when we die?
------------ if we are saved I would have to say heaven, as it says home with the lord when away from the body. but it also says that Jesus returns with all his saints if he returns with us, I just have to think we would be with him in heaven ,( although other versions says holly ones, some might say they are angels).
--------------
2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Zechariah 14:5
and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Hi Dave

many thanks for your valid comments, and for including scripture to confirm your ideas.

It may be worth asking us all to include what Bible Translation we are quoting from, it is not to much of a problem at this stage, but it would help as we delve deeper into scripture and comparing verses, do you think that is a good idea?

Bless you
 
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Thanks @B-A-C I'm only asking for the purposes of this conversation, not raising a theological point. The phrase current heaven doesn't appear in the translations of the bible I use, so I want to make sure I'm not talking at cross-purposes with anybody else.
That is very true brother, but as I think I said, calling Heaven now as The Current Heaven, does help us distinguish what is now, which is the topic of this thread.

We will discuss the Eternal Heaven in a separate thread, the aim is to see clearly what Heaven is like now and what to expect, and later discuss when Heaven and Earth will be one, all things made new, etc. There are distinct differences to consider although Heaven where God lives will be Heaven where God lives in the New Heaven/New Earth.

Bless you brother.
 
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I know @Brother-Paul wants to focus on the "pre new heaven". So even though the phrase "current heaven" may not appear in the Bible.
There are several verses that talk about a new heaven.

Rev 21:1; Isa 65:17; Isa 66:22; 2 Pet 3:13; I think we have to discuss these verses somewhat, in order to establish there is an "old" (current) heaven.

Jesus speaks of the "old" (current) heaven and Earth passing away.
Matt 5:18; Matt 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 16:17; Luke 21:33;

Peter mentions it also
2 Pet 3:10;
Brilliant B-A-C & All

It is natural we may need to compare the two stages of Heaven, Current and New/Eternal Heaven.

So as we do not mix the two, as we do not know how much some readers may or may not know, it may be a good idea to clarify this in out posts.

Your first line of scripture verses from Rev 21:2 point to the New Heaven and Earth, this is after Jesus has been commanded by God that the time is right and He returns in Glory. But the important thing here is that it is making clear that the old heaven, the 'Current Heaven' will pass away.

The following verse also confirms the passing away of the old heaven and earth but nicely picks up on the Law, which includes the very important last statement of the dot and tittle.
Matthew 5:18 (NKJV)
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Again we are looking at the confirmation from our Lord that heaven and earth will pass away, but as Jesus says The Word will by no means pass away.
Matthew 24:34-35 (NKJV) - Also confirming the same in Mark 13:31 & Luke 21.33
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Luke puts it another way, confirming which is easiest. Interesting take on the Law and Heaven and earth passing away.
Luke 16:17 (NKJV)
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Peter gives us a more detail how the Current Heavens will pass away, here in the plural.
2 Peter 3:10 (NKJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

It is clear from the scriptures B-A-C has provided that heaven as it is now, Will pass away.

Once we have studied together 'The Current Heaven' and taken to heart what it is like now, it will be interesting to consider 'Them Passing Away'. But will they pass away as it sounds, or will they be made new, God restores may be our discussion then, but that is something to look forward to as we study this topic together, for now the goal post we are looking between at are from Now to to Christs Return in Glory to make all things new. The Current Heaven (Old Heaven) and the New Heaven/New Earth may feel like it is a slightly different way of thinking to what we may be used to, as we look forward to the New Heaven/New Earth, our resurrected bodies and being with Jesus (in reverse order?) But Jesus has already told us these things so it seems very important we should understand them.

I think it is a very important topic, I hope everyone agrees, as we have seen from B-A-C's post, the Current Heaven and Earth Will Pass Away!

- So what is it like now?
- Where do Saved believers go when they die,?
- Is the current heaven just spiritual, or are there physical resurrected bodies in the current heaven, are there both?

Psalm 19:14 we pray together changing my to our. In Jesus Name. Amen
 
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I've always believed there a heaven 'up there'. And in more recent years that there is the 3rd heaven where God and the angelic world are. And the 2nd heaven which apparently is how people refer to the 'heavens' the stars, planets, etc. And then the atmosphere where we get our weather from?

But most recently , since the passing of my husband, I've been much more conscious of 'going to prepare a house for you, etc.' John 14; 6.

And especially since seeing my Dad's body at the time of his death. And, my husband laying in ICU when I realized that he was no longer 'here'. an entirely different perspective. I know there is 'eternity' waiting for every one. God's Word tells us about it. And having faith to believe that what God's Word says is really going to happen. And I can understand why He chose to give us those word To comfort us. And that even though our relationships with other believers can be far from perfect at times. We Can look forward to glorified bodies in the 'future' or whenever God chooses to take us to be with Himself.

My understand is that we'll have glorified bodies just like Jesus Christ had when He was resurrected from the dead.

Some of these questions are Good ones. But - as much as we'd like all the answers. We probably won't have them 'until we get there'.
 
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I've always believed there a heaven 'up there'. And in more recent years that there is the 3rd heaven where God and the angelic world are. And the 2nd heaven which apparently is how people refer to the 'heavens' the stars, planets, etc. And then the atmosphere where we get our weather from?

But most recently , since the passing of my husband, I've been much more conscious of 'going to prepare a house for you, etc.' John 14; 6.

And especially since seeing my Dad's body at the time of his death. And, my husband laying in ICU when I realized that he was no longer 'here'. an entirely different perspective. I know there is 'eternity' waiting for every one. God's Word tells us about it. And having faith to believe that what God's Word says is really going to happen. And I can understand why He chose to give us those word To comfort us. And that even though our relationships with other believers can be far from perfect at times. We Can look forward to glorified bodies in the 'future' or whenever God chooses to take us to be with Himself.

My understand is that we'll have glorified bodies just like Jesus Christ had when He was resurrected from the dead.

Some of these questions are Good ones. But - as much as we'd like all the answers. We probably won't have them 'until we get there'.
My dear sister,

I understand everything you say, I have been very cautious how we deal with this discussion, but what we are looking at is scripture based, there are distinct differences between the Old/Current Heaven and The New Heaven/New Earth, Jesus Himself told us so as B-A-C kindly confirmed with scripture above.

I also understand that anyone who has recently lost a loved one may not be ready to follow this discussion, it is best at this point to decide if you wish to continue, that said Sue, we are not discussing any more than what happens to a lost soul and a saved soul, except we are looking at the two stages of Heaven as Jesus has confirmed in scripture for us. One important thing to state if I may, if a person has died and is Saved, and their name is in the Book of Life and the Lamb, they are saved sister, no matter how the current Heaven passes away and is replaced, restored, renewed in the New Heaven/New Earth. Saved means Saved Sue, Jesus will deal with it all, all things will be made new.

The reason for creating this topic is because scripture clearly defines Heaven now, The Current Heaven and the New Heaven/New earth, there are so many incorrect views in the world, scripture will make clear for us, as much as is possible. It is important we all look at the goal, the New Heaven/New Earth but at this stage we are considering the differences between the goal posts according to scripture.

May the Lord truly bless you Sue.

In His Love

Brother-Paul
 
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The subject of the thread is the current heaven.

The New heaven and the New earth -- will be the New Jerusalem coming down from 'heaven' by God , Himself. The heaven and earth of Now will be destroyed at the end.

Guess I'm not sure what the 'two stages of heaven' has to do with the lost or the saved person who dies. The person who dies and is a believer will be immediately with Jesus Christ-- where ever That Is. There will be the marriage super of the Lamb in 'heaven'. So Your question is Where that heaven will be?
 
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@Sue D.

Yes we are looking at the Current Heaven.

We will look at the New Heaven/New earth later.

My comment regarding a Saved person dying before Christ's Return and the New Heaven and New Earth, was as a word of reassurance, if a person is saved they are saved. Even though the current heaven will end we have no worries in Christ about our loved ones or yourself. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

These were the initial questions Sue, so as to avoid jumping ahead.

- So what is it like now?
- Where do Saved believers go when they die,?
- Is the current heaven just spiritual, or are there physical resurrected bodies in the current heaven, are there both?

The wedding supper of the Lamb is a good point to raise.

Will the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, be after the Rapture or after Christ's Return in Glory when all things are made new and we receive our resurrected bodies?

Already one question raises another, I find this an interesting topic, as we progress more and more questions will be raised, we will not have answers to them all but by sharing scripture together we will understand a lot more. It is essential at this stage to consider the Current Heaven to save confusion later with the Eternal Heaven (Which will be a separate thread)

Bless you
 

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