THE CURRENT HEAVEN

[Curtis]

@Curtis are you suggesting in paragraph 2, the rapture will be pre-tribulation (Phase 2), when we will be coming together with the Lord in the sky and go with our Lord to the Current Heaven and have spiritual bodies. Our spirits and souls go to heaven.

What happens to the physical body at the rapture at this point?

Brother Paul we should be keenly aware that every born again believer lives in two different worlds at the same time. The spiritual realm (Kingdom of God) where we have been "translated" to, and the physical world in which our physical bodies are connected, and limited to.

When the Bible tells us, "come boldly to the throne of grace...." (Heb 4:16) the throne of grace is not in this world, or is it anywhere out in outer space, it is where God sits enthroned in all of his Glory! As we already know "flesh, and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God", (1 Cor 15:50) so our physical body can not go where our spirits are. The removal of the fleshly body must be cut off for this to happen. Paul told us.....

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

No one can believe in what they do not know, and we certainly can not experience what we do not believe. The anointing of Christ has cut away (circumcised) the limitations of our flesh so we can experience the Kingdom in which we have been translated into. To be able to live there permanently the physical body needs to be changed. There are millions, upon millions of saints living in the same Kingdom we are, and they do not at this time have super natural spiritual body, yet they are fully aware of their surroundings. The book of Hebrews reveals this us as to where we have been translated to.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Heb 12:23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


The spirits of just men made perfect are all of God's saints (including us) awaiting to know the redemption of our bodies that will happen at the rapture.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Curtis

Thanks for your detailed reply, I still have an item bugging me.

If the Rapture is pre-trib. or even mid-trib. as I understand it we will be lifted up and meet with the Lord in the air, this being a physical raising up, a physical coming together with our Lord, the lifting up and rapture of His church, His Bride. What you are explaining is a spiritual coming together, where our spirits go to be with the Lord,

My question therefore based on what you say is, what happens to the physical body at the rapture, you say the spirit goes to be with the Lord?

I may not get back to this until Thursday as I am going fishing with the Lord tomorrow.

 

[Curtis]

@Curtis

Thanks for your detailed reply, I still have an item bugging me.

If the Rapture is pre-trib. or even mid-trib. as I understand it we will be lifted up and meet with the Lord in the air, this being a physical raising up, a physical coming together with our Lord, the lifting up and rapture of His church, His Bride. What you are explaining is a spiritual coming together, where our spirits go to be with the Lord,

My question therefore based on what you say is, what happens to the physical body at the rapture, you say the spirit goes to be with the Lord?

I may not get back to this until Thursday as I am going fishing with the Lord tomorrow.

The physical body will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. The word, "moment" is the Greek word, "atomos" which is were get the English word for, "atomic", Atomic clocks are the most accurate because they vibrate faster than any another timing device. The word atomos means, "something that can not be subdivided into anything faster than what it already is" In other words atomos means instantaneous" The catching away, or rapture will happen instantaneous with out warning.

1Co 15:35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come

1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Most believers are more aware of their physical surrounding, and much less of our spiritual surroundings. When we think spiritual anythings it is almost like is that all it is? Just spiritual? The physical realm is only temporary and is passing away, were the spiritual realm is eternal, and never changes. When the bible tells us to "look at the things not seen" we think how can I see things not seen? Faith always sees into the spiritual realm that is eternal. When the Bible tells us God is invisible that does not mean you can not see him, it just means you can not see him with your physical eyes, but he can be clearly seen by faith!

 

[Brother-Paul]

The physical body will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. The word, "moment" is the Greek word, "atomos" which is were get the English word for, "atomic", Atomic clocks are the most accurate because they vibrate faster than any another timing device. The word atomos means, "something that can not be subdivided into anything faster than what it already is" In other words atomos means instantaneous" The catching away, or rapture will happen instantaneous with out warning.

1Co 15:35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come

1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Most believers are more aware of their physical surrounding, and much less of our spiritual surroundings. When we think spiritual anythings it is almost like is that all it is? Just spiritual? The physical realm is only temporary and is passing away, were the spiritual realm is eternal, and never changes. When the bible tells us to "look at the things not seen" we think how can I see things not seen? Faith always sees into the spiritual realm that is eternal. When the Bible tells us God is invisible that does not mean you can not see him, it just means you can not see him with your physical eyes, but he can be clearly seen by faith!

My last post for tonight, sorry.

When we are raptured, I understand as the physical and spiritual at the same time, in an instant we will be raptured and gathered in the air with our Lord. But for resurrection that is at the end when Christ returns, defeats the devil and makes all things new.

Those not raptured the lost souls are LEFT BEHIND. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying, if the rapture is pre-trib or even mid-trib. and only the spirit goes to be with our Lord (and soul) are you saying the body is Left Behind? Which we know the body is not compete without the spirit, and the body was created first then the spirit, the breath of life.

I am not getting how the spirit can be raptured at the pre or mid trib period what are you suggesting happens to the body?

Hope I am making sense I have pushed this last post.

 

[Curtis]

My last post for tonight, sorry.

When we are raptured, I understand as the physical and spiritual at the same time, in an instant we will be raptured and gathered in the air with our Lord. But for resurrection that is at the end when Christ returns, defeats the devil and makes all things new.

Those not raptured the lost souls are LEFT BEHIND. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying, if the rapture is pre-trib or even mid-trib. and only the spirit goes to be with our Lord (and soul) are you saying the body is Left Behind? Which we know the body is not compete without the spirit, and the body was created first then the spirit, the breath of life.

I am not getting how the spirit can be raptured at the pre or mid trib period what are you suggesting happens to the body?

Hope I am making sense I have pushed this last post.

I think you are missing the fact that the rapture is a resurrection, not the resurrection of the spirit because we are already in Christ, but the resurrection of the body. When bible tells talks about the resurrection of the "dead", the word, "dead" means "corpse" which is a physical body. (1 Cor 15:42) The physical body will change in an instant into a spiritual body, and no traces of the flesh will be left.

 

[B-A-C]

This thread has diverged... what is the resurrection?

Curtis mentioned those martyred during the tribulation. It says that is the "first resurrection".
To add a little more grease to the fire... it isn't only the righteous that are resurrected. The evil will also be resurrected.

Not only will there will be resurrection of life... there will also be a resurrection of judgment.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Even the wicked will be resurrected.

Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

So the on going theme of the question here is... where do they go?

Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

So if the resurrection truly is only the body, and not the spirit, where do the spirits of "saved" go? Where do the spirits of the wicked go?

Is it just the body that "hears His voice" to rise, or is it also our soul, our being, our mind, that part of us that is not our body.
If I have to be "absent from the body" in order to be present with the Lord, then obviously we aren't present with the Lord yet.

Also if the "saved" have a new resurrected body, do the wicked also get a new resurrected "spiritual" body as well?

Or does the word resurrection mean something different for the righteous and the wicked?

The question remains... where do people's spirits reside while they are waiting for their new bodies?

If the righteous get new bodies to roam around the new heaven and new earth with. Do the wicked get a new body to swim around the lake of fire with?

As mentioned earlier, our current bodies don't go to heaven but return to the dust.
So it seems our "old" bodies never get resurrected.

Do heavenly bodies come down from heaven to get resurrected back up to heaven without a soul during this time?

Do the wicked get new bodies, just so they can burn in them?

 

[Curtis]

Curtis mentioned those martyred during the tribulation. It says that is the "first resurrection".

There is only "one" resurrection, but there are three phases to that one resurrection. The "first", resurrection which includes the three phases (Jesus being the first fruits, and the main harvest (the rapture), and lastly the resurrection of the tribulation saints) will be completed when the tribulations saints are resurrected. As you might have noticed the resurrection of the righteous happens "first" before the resurrection of the wicked, which is why it says....

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.......

 

[Curtis]

Not only will there will be resurrection of life... there will also be a resurrection of judgment.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Even the wicked will be resurrected.

Nowhere in these two verses does it says that the resurrection of the righteous, and the resurrection of the wicked happen at the same time.

 

[Curtis]

So if the resurrection truly is only the body, and not the spirit, where do the spirits of "saved" go? Where do the spirits of the wicked go?

The spirits of the saved stay where they have always been in Christ. The spirits of the wicked go to hell awaiting the judgment.

 

[Curtis]

Is it just the body that "hears His voice" to rise, or is it also our soul, our being, our mind, that part of us that is not our body.

What part of man goes into the grave when he dies? Can inanimate things be called back to life after it is dead, like a physical body? Did Jesus ever speak to a tree?

 

[Curtis]

If I have to be "absent from the body" in order to be present with the Lord, then obviously we aren't present with the Lord yet.

Are you sitting in Heavenly places in Christ? (Eph 2:5-6) If so is your body there with you? Where can you go from his presence, and how can you hide from his eyes? (Psa 139:7-9)

 

[Curtis]

The question remains... where do people's spirits reside while they are waiting for their new bodies?

The same place they have already been translated to, "the Kingdom of his dear Son." (Col 1:13)

 

[Curtis]

Also if the "saved" have a new resurrected body, do the wicked also get a new resurrected "spiritual" body as well?

The wicked will be raised back to life in their bodies, only to be cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus said.....

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Curtis]

As mentioned earlier, our current bodies don't go to heaven but return to the dust.
So it seems our "old" bodies never get resurrected.

Not true, they are changed from a natural body to a spiritual body. (1 Cor 15:44)

 

[Brother-Paul]

I think you are missing the fact that the rapture is a resurrection, not the resurrection of the spirit because we are already in Christ, but the resurrection of the body. When bible tells talks about the resurrection of the "dead", the word, "dead" means "corpse" which is a physical body. (1 Cor 15:42) The physical body will change in an instant into a spiritual body, and no traces of the flesh will be left.

@Curtis

Sorry not missing the fact, just to tired at the time and rushing to reply in the flesh.

I am happy with what has been said regarding the spirit

- at present when a person dies, the first death, the saved - body goes back to the dust of the earth and 'spirit and soul' goes to heaven and is with the Lord.
--- the lost souls when they die the first death, their body goes back to the dust of the earth - I assume with their spirit and soul.

- when the rapture occurs the 'spirit and the soul' goes to be with the Lord in Heaven, first we are gathered together in the sky.
--- the body which would go back to the earth disinterates at the rapture of the spirit.

Remind me again what happens to the saved in the Tribulation period up to Christ's return please.

Sorry for the delay in replying, although I had a good day fishing with the Lord yesterday, I did to much and last night and today have not been good for me.

In His Love

 

[Curtis]

--- the lost souls when they die the first death, their body goes back to the dust of the earth - I assume with their spirit and soul.

When a person dies their physical body goes into the ground. Their spirit, stays where it has always been in Christ. The Bible tells us that, "we have been raised with Christ in his resurrection, and we are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ."

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

A person can NOT seek the things that are above unless you are already above where these things are that we are suppose to seek!

The resurrection of the spirit, and the body are two separate events. Our spirit is with Christ being in him, and at the same time Christ is in us. The natural man with its fleshly mind can not receive things because they are foolishness to him neither can know them because they are only spiritually understood. (1 Cor 2:14)

Most believers do not believe this because it makes no sense at all to the physical carnal brain. No body can experience this in their life unless they first "believe it"!

 

[Curtis]

Remind me again what happens to the saved in the Tribulation period up to Christ's return please.

In the Book of Revelations it describes the "souls" of men who were killed in the great tribulations, and that were already with the Lord, but had not yet received their new supernatural bodies. Listen to what the Lord tells them....

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

After all those who come to faith in the great tribulation, and are killed for their faith, then they will all be raised with new supernatural bodies. When this happens then the final resurrection of the righteous will be complete.

 

[B-A-C]

Not true, they are changed from a natural body to a spiritual body. (1 Cor 15:44)

In that case.. it isn't the same old body.

The same place they have already been translated to, "the Kingdom of his dear Son." (Col 1:13)

The kingdom of heaven, is not the same thing as heaven.

 

[Dave M]

Their spirit, stays where it has always been in Christ.

Philippians 1:23
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

John 14:1-31
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?

 

[Curtis]

The kingdom of heaven, is not the same thing as heaven.

(AMPC) And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).