THE CURRENT HEAVEN

[Brother-Paul]

May I ask brothers and sisters in Christ, when do you think the Rapture will take place, pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation or at the end of the Great Tribulation period when Christ Returns in Glory, defeats the devil and makes all things new.

We have looked at scripture regarding the Current Heaven as to whether it is a spiritual place, a physical place or both. The situation now is the same as it has been for at least the last 2000 years, we now look at the timing of the Rapture, pre-tribulation before the Tribulation, mid-tribulation half way through the tribulation period, and post tribulation which will happen at the end of the tribulation period.

You may be thinking at this stage does it matter, in a word, yes, it does. If there is a pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture, the Current Heaven will change from what has been discussed to all the saved believers, dead or alive on earth, meeting with the Lord in the air and being in heaven. That would be a massive increase in the population in the Current Heaven and these will be physical beings. On the other hand if there was a post tribulation rapture then it would all happen when Christ Returns in Glory and defeats the devil and makes all things new. At which point we are judged for what we have done for the Lord on earth and receive our new resurrected bodies, in the New Heaven/New Earth.

What are your thoughts on this?

Some people believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, mainly I believe because our Lord will lift out of this world those who are saved, to save them from the woes and more to come. Some believer this because Noah was lifted out with his family before the flood.

Other people believer in the mid-tribulation rapture, as we are experiencing some of the items prophesied now, but will be raptured half way through the seven year period, again like Noah was lifted out before the flood, and again to save his people from the Great Tribulation period where everything will get significantly worse (without going into all the punishments which will be poured out).

Finally others believe in the post tribulation rapture, that we will have to go through the tribulation and great tribulation period before we are raptured.

But certain things have to happen which define when the rapture would take place.

1. The First Six Seals Must Be Broken. (This would take us to the mid-tribulation rapture)
2. 
   
3. The Third Temple Must Be Rebuilt. Currently, there is no Jewish temple in Jerusalem, but it is being discussed.
4. 
   
5. The Beast Kingdom Must Be Established. No previous kingdom has ever ruled over the whole world.
6. 
   
7. The Antichrist Must Make a Seven-Year Covenant. A seven-year covenant must be signed

Although we are not really looking at the rapture here, we are looking at its timing of it as it affects what we are considering in the Current Heaven.

The timing of the rapture is not straightforward as we know, and has been the subject of debate for many years, it will probably remain a subject of debate right up to Christ's Return.

Would it seem right to consider that, if the rapture was pre (doubtful) or mid tribulation period (probable), ALL saved believers will go to the Current Heaven in a physical form? They will remain with the Lord in the Current Heaven until Christ's return in Glory to defeat the devil and make all things new, New Heaven/New Earth, saved get New Resurrected bodies.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Curtis]

Greeting brother

The answer is yes. When we are born again the Spirit of Christ dwells in us, He in us and us with Him. John 15

John 15:4-5 (NKJV)
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

John 15:6-8 (NKJV)
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

If we abide in Him and He in us, God the Father is Glorified.

How long does it take for fruit to be produced in the life of someone who has received the Word? What does the fruit represent? Can a man be unborn again once he has been born again? The fruit represents salvation which comes by way of the Word of God.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Can a good tree ever produce bad fruit? Can a bad tree ever produce good fruit? Who are those who hear the Word, and receive it with gladness, and then later fall away? Are they the ones who produced good fruit, and then all of a sudden started producing bad fruit? A bad tree can never produce bad fruit, or it was never a good tree to start with. (Matt 7:18)

Who are the ones who have already overcome this world?

1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Who are the ones that have not overcome this world? Everyone who is not born of God. Are there any unsaved people in the assemblies every Sunday?

It is impossible for a person to be in "Christ" and not be where Jesus is right now sitting on the right hand of God in Heavenly places with all of God's saints.

 

[Hekuran]

May I ask brothers and sisters in Christ, when do you think the Rapture will take place, pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation or at the end of the Great Tribulation period when Christ Returns in Glory, defeats the devil and makes all things new.

We have looked at scripture regarding the Current Heaven as to whether it is a spiritual place, a physical place or both. The situation now is the same as it has been for at least the last 2000 years, we now look at the timing of the Rapture, pre-tribulation before the Tribulation, mid-tribulation half way through the tribulation period, and post tribulation which will happen at the end of the tribulation period.

You may be thinking at this stage does it matter, in a word, yes, it does. If there is a pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture, the Current Heaven will change from what has been discussed to all the saved believers, dead or alive on earth, meeting with the Lord in the air and being in heaven. That would be a massive increase in the population in the Current Heaven and these will be physical beings. On the other hand if there was a post tribulation rapture then it would all happen when Christ Returns in Glory and defeats the devil and makes all things new. At which point we are judged for what we have done for the Lord on earth and receive our new resurrected bodies, in the New Heaven/New Earth.

What are your thoughts on this?

Some people believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, mainly I believe because our Lord will lift out of this world those who are saved, to save them from the woes and more to come. Some believer this because Noah was lifted out with his family before the flood.

Other people believer in the mid-tribulation rapture, as we are experiencing some of the items prophesied now, but will be raptured half way through the seven year period, again like Noah was lifted out before the flood, and again to save his people from the Great Tribulation period where everything will get significantly worse (without going into all the punishments which will be poured out).

Finally others believe in the post tribulation rapture, that we will have to go through the tribulation and great tribulation period before we are raptured.

But certain things have to happen which define when the rapture would take place.

1. The First Six Seals Must Be Broken. (This would take us to the mid-tribulation rapture)
2. 
   
3. The Third Temple Must Be Rebuilt. Currently, there is no Jewish temple in Jerusalem, but it is being discussed.
4. 
   
5. The Beast Kingdom Must Be Established. No previous kingdom has ever ruled over the whole world.
6. 
   
7. The Antichrist Must Make a Seven-Year Covenant. A seven-year covenant must be signed

Although we are not really looking at the rapture here, we are looking at its timing of it as it affects what we are considering in the Current Heaven.

The timing of the rapture is not straightforward as we know, and has been the subject of debate for many years, it will probably remain a subject of debate right up to Christ's Return.

Would it seem right to consider that, if the rapture was pre (doubtful) or mid tribulation period (probable), ALL saved believers will go to the Current Heaven in a physical form? They will remain with the Lord in the Current Heaven until Christ's return in Glory to defeat the devil and make all things new, New Heaven/New Earth, saved get New Resurrected bodies.

What are your thoughts on this?

You haven't given us the "no repture" option to consider! I don't read anywhere in the Bible the saints being removed from earth and taken to heaven.

 

[Curtis]

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

There were letters being sent around to all the early Churchs teaching that the rapture had already taken place and that the tribulation was soon to follow.
Obviously, this upset the Church! Paul writes to the Church to correct this error.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The tribulation can not begin until there is a "falling away first". The word for "falling away" is "apostasy" which literally means, "a departure, to depart" We always think it means that those in the Church will one day fall away from the truth. That has been going on ever since the Church started from it's beginning! The antichrist cannot be revealed until the departure of the Church has taken place.

It makes no difference if we believe this word means that, because later on in the chapter, Paul says it again.

2Th 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

The restrainer is the Church! Some say it's the Holy Spirit and when he leaves, then the wicked one shall be revealed. If that is true then the Church will go along with him because Jesus said the Holy Spirit will never leave us!! (John 14:16) The Church was given power, and authority over all the works of the Devil, so, the Church is the restrainer, being directed by the Holy Spirit.

The rapture, or the catching away, or departure happens before the wicked one is revealed which begins the tribulation period.

 

[B-A-C]

Actually the "man of perdition" will be revealed before the rapture, falling away and tribulation begins.

2 Thes 2:1; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2 Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2 Thes 2:4; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

As far as the church being removed, even if there is a "pre-trib" rapture, it obviously won't take the entire church.

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So there will still be a church of believers during the tribulation. The restrainer is not the church, the church is still there during the tribulation.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

It will be "after the tribulation" of those days that Jesus gathers together the elect. So if there is a "pre-trib" rapture, it obviously doesn't get all believers.

How long does it take for fruit to be produced in the life of someone who has received the Word? What does the fruit represent? Can a man be unborn again once he has been born again? The fruit represents salvation which comes by way of the Word of God.

The fruit can take years to produce.

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

Can a man be unborn again once he has been born again? The fruit represents salvation which comes by way of the Word of God.

The gifts of the spirit are what God gives us, the fruit is what we ourselves produce.
A man that has been born can surely die, a man that has been born again, an surely die .. "again".

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

You can't be a partaker (consumer) of the Holy Spirit if you aren't saved. You can repent "again" if you never repented in the first place. You can't crucify Jesus "again" if you never accept his crucifixion the first time.
Just because you did something once, doesn't mean you can't do it again.

 

[B-A-C]

You haven't given us the "no repture" option to consider! I don't read anywhere in the Bible the saints being removed from earth and taken to heaven.

Not everyone who believes in a "rapture" believes we will go to heaven. The word "rapture" simply means gathering together, gathering up.
The Bible certainly says He will gather us up.

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Even if He only gathers us up to the sky, we will still be "gathered up".

1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

That's all the word rapture means.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Actually the "man of perdition" will be revealed before the rapture, falling away and tribulation begins.

2 Thes 2:1; Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2 Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2 Thes 2:4; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

As far as the church being removed, even if there is a "pre-trib" rapture, it obviously won't take the entire church.

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So there will still be a church of believers during the tribulation. The restrainer is not the church, the church is still there during the tribulation.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

It will be "after the tribulation" of those days that Jesus gathers together the elect. So if there is a "pre-trib" rapture, it obviously doesn't get all believers.



The fruit can take years to produce.

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"



The gifts of the spirit are what God gives us, the fruit is what we ourselves produce.
A man that has been born can surely die, a man that has been born again, an surely die .. "again".

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

You can't be a partaker (consumer) of the Holy Spirit if you aren't saved. You can repent "again" if you never repented in the first place. You can't crucify Jesus "again" if you never accept his crucifixion the first time.
Just because you did something once, doesn't mean you can't do it again.

Thank you for filling in the spaces brother,

I totally agree with you regarding the pre-tribulation, thanks for including the scripture confirming this. 2 Thess 2 is very clear.

Rev 7, I do have a different thought on this if I may. Taking your comment...

So there will still be a church of believers during the tribulation. The restrainer is not the church, the church is still there during the tribulation.

When the Rapture takes place, All saved believers will meet with our Lord in the air, if that is the case and scripture does suggest this, we could say my thought are wrong based on your thoughts above. But, the reason I am thinking this is because, when the saved have come together with the Lord in the air, those left behind are lost souls but, amongst those left behind are the loved ones, partners, friends, children of those gone to be with the Lord. Although most books point to the world will be full of lost souls, it is will be, amongst them are those who couldn't sit on the fence but their hearts were search, they were almost at a point of accepting Christ and repenting.

Many will say aliens have taken the missing people and other far fetched ideas the world is good at pulling from the devils list But some church goers will realise they were wrong, some will not, some family members will realise they were wrong, some will not. Some will read our Bibles left behind, some will watch dvd videos or read books we left behind. So I feel that even though at the Rapture all saved believers will meet with the Lord in the air, the church having been lifted out, the church on earth will still be there by those coming to Christ. No doubt the church then will be like the first church in Acts, they will meet together in their homes, share all their possessions with each other to help one another. No doubt the church then will grow but will live in fear, fear of the woes poured out, fear of the anti-christ, etc. No doubt many will be martyred also brother. What are your thoughts?

I have read every book in the 'Left Behind' series; read with an open mind and The Truth in The Word, I found them to be an excellent insight into times from the Rapture to the end.

I am in full agreement regarding the Spirit and the fruits, the only other though I have here is that although fruit can take years to produce, nothing is impossible for God, especially in the tribulation period, and the Spirit can quicken the fruits as God wishes.

Bless you brother

 

[Brother-Paul]

You haven't given us the "no repture" option to consider! I don't read anywhere in the Bible the saints being removed from earth and taken to heaven.

I haven't brother because there will not be a No Rapture option.

Matt 24:31;
"And He will send forth His angels with A Great Trumpet and They Will Gather Together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

All saved believers will, at the time of the Rapture, (Pre, Mid or Post Tribulation), be gathered together with the Lord, His elect, His church, from the whole world. And we, saved believers, will be with The Lord Forever.

Bless you

 

[Hekuran]

I haven't brother because there will not be a No Rapture option.

Matt 24:31;
"And He will send forth His angels with A Great Trumpet and They Will Gather Together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

All saved believers will, at the time of the Rapture, (Pre, Mid or Post Tribulation), be gathered together with the Lord, His elect, His church, from the whole world. And we, saved believers, will be with The Lord Forever.

Bless you

That's not a rapture to heaven. That's a gathering from all corners of the world. It happens on Jesus' return in glory, so would be strange for the elect to be taken from earth to heaven at the very moment Jesus returns from heaven to earth.

What Matthew describes is Jesus returning, heralded by an angelic trumpet blast, and all people who belong to him from all over the world gather as a global welcoming party to greet the triumphant king.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Thank you for your comments brother.

As you will have noticed, I left the topic of the tribulation open for discussion as there are many views, pre-trib, mid-trib and post trib.

From what you are suggesting you are therefore referring to the post-trib rapture, do you agree with this assumption brother.

There are many who believe in the pre-trib, and the mid trib seems to be the most popular idea, in each case I can see why but, I wanted to float this and see what others think. I must admit until we did the study on the Current Heaven here on TJ, I was more mid-tribulation rapture minded.

But, having followed through the Current Church study together, it would seem now that the post tribulation rapture makes most sense. The problem with the pre-trib. and the mid-trib. are that those lifted out in the gathering would go to heaven, dead in Christ first, but if physical would be added to those who are spirit and soul as discussed and confirmed with scripture further back in our discussions.

So what we see from the study, the Current Heaven, which includes the spirit and soul of the saved who have died at the first death along with our Lord and the whole accompaniment of heaven until Christ's Return in Glory to defeat the devil, rapture his church, and make all things new. New Heaven/New Earth.

The post-tribulation therefore now appears to make more sense.

I am sure there will be many with pre-trib and mid-trib ideas who will disagree with the above, but we must always, as said from the start, keep an open mind.

I am sure there are many who may not think it right that saved believers should have to go through the Tribulation and Great Tribulations periods, especially if their views are that God will lift his church out before he pours out His Wrath. But God is God, His ways are not our ways, we must believer and trust in him and lean not on our own understanding, He will not let us down, He loves us to much for that to happen, He wouldn't have let Jesus suffer, even unto death for our sins, He loves us and His will, will be done.

The Truth is always in The Word, the Whole Truth is always in the Whole Word, we are to search the scriptures and by doing so more and more will be revealed to us. The study of the 'Current Church' is an almost untouched subject, but why? Saved believers have been dying and going to the current heaven for over 2000 years, shouldn't we want to know what it is like? Randy Alcorn started me off on this search after reading his book called 'Heaven', he looked at the current heaven and the future heaven, the new heaven/new earth, I have included snippets here but really do recommend his book to anyone who wants to know what it is like in Heaven for our loved ones who were saved and have gone to the current heaven, for us should we die the first death before the Rapture, and for our Eternal Home which will start soon in another thread.

In His Love

 

[Hekuran]

I find that discussion of the rapture leads only to confusion.

The new testament writers pointed forward to two events: the resurrection and to Christ's return. It's easier to discuss what the Bible says if we use - as far as possible - the terminology the Bible uses.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I find that discussion of the rapture leads only to confusion.

The new testament writers pointed forward to two events: the resurrection and to Christ's return. It's easier to discuss what the Bible says if we use - as far as possible - the terminology the Bible uses.

Although I agree fully with you. The study here is the 'Current Heaven'

When studying any topic there is always something else that crops up, it is right to then see how that fits into the picture like we have just done. The study is 'Current Heaven' Not 'The Rapture'

Peace be with you brother

 

[B-A-C]

From what you are suggesting you are therefore referring to the post-trib rapture, do you agree with this assumption brother.

There are many who believe in the pre-trib, and the mid trib seems to be the most popular idea, in each case I can see why but, I wanted to float this and see what others think. I must admit until we did the study on the Current Heaven here on TJ, I was more mid-tribulation rapture minded.

The honest truth here is... I don't know.

But there are some other explanations.
1. It's possible there is a "post-trib".
2. It's possible there is a "mid-trib".
3. Even if there is a "pre-trib", and even if that takes up ALL the saved church. The Bible makes it clear some will come out of the tribulation. (You mentioned the "Left Behind" books) so the thought is these people will get saved during the tribulation.
They didn't make it to the "pre-trib" rapture, because they weren't saved before the tribulation.
4. It's possible there is a HALF-rapture.

Rev 2:10; 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Rev 3:10; 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

So why does Smyrna have to go through testing, but yet Philadelphia is spared from the hour of testing? Some believe these are "so-so" Christians on the fence. Now they will be tested to force them to prove what they say they believe.
5. It is possible there is no rapture at all, and all the verses about Jesus coming back, are ALL about the second coming. Many believe this, but it seems the least likely to me.

I visited a church once that teaches, we "never" go to heaven. Their assertion here is, there are no verses that actually say we go to heaven. They believe in a rapture of sorts.... but you don't go to heaven.
You might reign on earth with Jesus, (Rev 5:10; ) or you might go to the New Jerusalem (which comes down OUT of heaven). (Rev 21:2; Rev 21:10; ) But they believe no one actually "lives" in heaven per se.

 

[Curtis]

Two Resurrections?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that THERE SHALL BE A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, BOTH OF THE JUST AND UNJUST.

The resurrection of the unjust shall happen at the end of the 1000 year rein of Jesus Christ upon the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There are only two resurrections, the first being the resurrection of the just, and lastly at the end of the millennium (1000 year rein of Christ along with his Church) the unjust are raised to be judged.

It is very interesting how the Lord God looks at the first resurrection. God does not look at things like a normal physical man does. He sees a single event as three separate “phases”. while we consider a single event happening only once. We need to look at things how the Lord sees them since we are created in his image, and we have the mind of Christ we should look at things being spiritually minded as he does.

In the Old Testament the Lord commanded his chosen people to do things in specific way. When it came to any harvest, (Harvest as representing gathering of his saints) they were told how he wanted them to harvest the grain, or any other crop they had planted. Jesus referred to a harvest as to the gathering together of the righteous, and the unrighteous. One being the wheat, and the other being tares.

I am sure the Old Testament people did not have a clue as to why the Lord had them do this each harvest a certain way. It was really for his Church today so that when we read these accounts that we can see why the Lord is teaching us how he sees each and every harvest. I will not quote all the scriptures because that would take up to much room here, but I give their location so you can go and read them for your self's. They are found here.

Exodus 23, and Leviticus 19

You will find that the Lord God commanded his people before they would harvest their crop, they should go into the fields and gather only the best of that crop, and offer them unto God as “THE FIRST FRUITS”

Next, after they had done that, they were to go into the fields to gather all the crops, (Main harvest, rapture) except they were not to harvest “CORNERS OF THEIR FIELDS”. The corners of the fields were to be left for the poor, and less fortunate who would “GLEAN” the fields for free. There are several accounts of this in scripture where women of faith went out to glean in the fields.

Every single Harvest had three separate phases to it, yet they are called “ONE” harvest. There is only one harvest when it comes to the resurrection of the just, but there are three separate phases to this one harvest (resurrection)

We have Jesus Christ who just so happens to be called the “FIRST FRUITS”

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: CHRIST THE FIRST FRUITS; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This should tell us something about the closeness of the next phase which would be the “MAIN” harvest which would be the “Rapture” or the “catching away of the wheat into his God's barns” The Harvest has already began more than 2000 years ago by the resurrection of Jesus Christ being the First Fruits!!!

The final “PHASE” of this “ONE” harvest would be the “GLEANING” (resurrection) of all the tribulation saints who missed the rapture, but came to faith during the tribulation period. They will have to die for their faith, and this will happen at the end of the second coming of Jesus Christ to this earth to make war with the beast along with all of his saints coming with him.

If we do not fully understand the three "phases" of the "one" resurrection, we will never be able to place were the rapture takes place, and will be constantly changing our minds on what to believe!

 

[Curtis]

As far as the church being removed, even if there is a "pre-trib" rapture, it obviously won't take the entire church.

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So there will still be a church of believers during the tribulation. The restrainer is not the church, the church is still there during the tribulation.

The "ten virgins" is the perfect example of "real believers", vs false "believers" who only "look the part". The real believers were taken, while the foolish believers were left behind. Later Jesus told the foolish virgins, "I do not know you"

Mat 25:10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’
Mat 25:12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

 

[Curtis]

The gifts of the spirit are what God gives us, the fruit is what we ourselves produce.

Fruit comes from the seed, not the ground in which it is planted. We are God's garden in which he sows the seed (Word of God)

1Co 3:9 For we are fellow workmen (joint promoters, laborers together) with and for God; you are God's garden and vineyard and field under cultivation, [you are] God's building.(AMP)

The Word of God is the seed that produces the fruit, not the person!

 

[Curtis]

Ev

You can't be a partaker (consumer) of the Holy Spirit if you aren't saved

Every person that Jesus preached to were made partakers of the Holy Spirit as the anointing fell upon them as Jesus taught. The rain of the Holy Spirit falls upon the just, and the unjust for God is no respecter of persons.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Two Resurrections?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that THERE SHALL BE A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, BOTH OF THE JUST AND UNJUST.

The resurrection of the unjust shall happen at the end of the 1000 year rein of Jesus Christ upon the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There are only two resurrections, the first being the resurrection of the just, and lastly at the end of the millennium (1000 year rein of Christ along with his Church) the unjust are raised to be judged.

It is very interesting how the Lord God looks at the first resurrection. God does not look at things like a normal physical man does. He sees a single event as three separate “phases”. while we consider a single event happening only once. We need to look at things how the Lord sees them since we are created in his image, and we have the mind of Christ we should look at things being spiritually minded as he does.

In the Old Testament the Lord commanded his chosen people to do things in specific way. When it came to any harvest, (Harvest as representing gathering of his saints) they were told how he wanted them to harvest the grain, or any other crop they had planted. Jesus referred to a harvest as to the gathering together of the righteous, and the unrighteous. One being the wheat, and the other being tares.

I am sure the Old Testament people did not have a clue as to why the Lord had them do this each harvest a certain way. It was really for his Church today so that when we read these accounts that we can see why the Lord is teaching us how he sees each and every harvest. I will not quote all the scriptures because that would take up to much room here, but I give their location so you can go and read them for your self's. They are found here.

Exodus 23, and Leviticus 19

You will find that the Lord God commanded his people before they would harvest their crop, they should go into the fields and gather only the best of that crop, and offer them unto God as “THE FIRST FRUITS”

Next, after they had done that, they were to go into the fields to gather all the crops, (Main harvest, rapture) except they were not to harvest “CORNERS OF THEIR FIELDS”. The corners of the fields were to be left for the poor, and less fortunate who would “GLEAN” the fields for free. There are several accounts of this in scripture where women of faith went out to glean in the fields.

Every single Harvest had three separate phases to it, yet they are called “ONE” harvest. There is only one harvest when it comes to the resurrection of the just, but there are three separate phases to this one harvest (resurrection)

We have Jesus Christ who just so happens to be called the “FIRST FRUITS”

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: CHRIST THE FIRST FRUITS; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This should tell us something about the closeness of the next phase which would be the “MAIN” harvest which would be the “Rapture” or the “catching away of the wheat into his God's barns” The Harvest has already began more than 2000 years ago by the resurrection of Jesus Christ being the First Fruits!!!

The final “PHASE” of this “ONE” harvest would be the “GLEANING” (resurrection) of all the tribulation saints who missed the rapture, but came to faith during the tribulation period. They will have to die for their faith, and this will happen at the end of the second coming of Jesus Christ to this earth to make war with the beast along with all of his saints coming with him.

If we do not fully understand the three "phases" of the "one" resurrection, we will never be able to place were the rapture takes place, and will be constantly changing our minds on what to believe!

@Curtis thanks for this post, it is very interesting, I was not aware of all the detail here.

When would you say, according to The Word, that the Rapture will take place, pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. You mention the saints coming to faith after the rapture, but during the Tribulation Period, are you referring to the Tribulation Period or the Great Tribulation Period?

Would it be a good idea to start a new post specifically about the Rapture brother?

 

[Curtis]

@Curtis thanks for this post, it is very interesting, I was not aware of all the detail here.

When would you say, according to The Word, that the Rapture will take place, pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. You mention the saints coming to faith after the rapture, but during the Tribulation Period, are you referring to the Tribulation Period or the Great Tribulation Period?

Would it be a good idea to start a new post specifically about the Rapture brother?

Jesus being the "first fruits" was "phase one" of the "one" resurrection. Notice: when God raised up Jesus from the dead he also raised us up with him to Heavenly places. (Eph 2:5-6)
The rapture (phase two) which happens before the tribulations will result in us getting our new spiritual bodies. There will be some who come to faith during the tribulation period, and they will have to die for their faith. These saints will be raised up when Jesus comes with all of his saints, which will complete "phase three", the final one resurrection of the righteous.

Tribulations have been going on for very very long time even John said he was in tribulation.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The great tribulation happens the last three and one half years when the Antichrist proclaims himself to be god.

This is why so many people think the rapture happens when Jesus returns during the great tribulation period because there is a resurrection of the tribulations saints. So, they are right, but that is not the rapture, it is only phase three that completes the one resurrection. Paul addressed all the misconceptions that were floating around the Church during his life, which is why he wrote Thessalonians. Some body wrote letters to the Churchs, and they "forged" Paul's signature stating it was from him which is why the Church's were pretty upset.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Jesus being the "first fruits" was "phase one" of the "one" resurrection. Notice: when God raised up Jesus from the dead he also raised us up with him to Heavenly places. (Eph 2:5-6)

The rapture (phase two) which happens before the tribulations will result in us getting our new spiritual bodies. There will be some who come to faith during the tribulation period, and they will have to die for their faith. These saints will be raised up when Jesus comes with all of his saints, which will complete "phase three", the final one resurrection of the righteous.

Tribulations have been going on for very very long time even John said he was in tribulation.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The great tribulation happens the last three and one half years when the Antichrist proclaims himself to be god.

This is why so many people think the rapture happens when Jesus returns during the great tribulation period because there is a resurrection of the tribulations saints. So, they are right, but that is not the rapture, it is only phase three that completes the one resurrection. Paul addressed all the misconceptions that were floating around the Church during his life, which is why he wrote Thessalonians. Some body wrote letters to the Churchs, and they "forged" Paul's signature stating it was from him which is why the Church's were pretty upset.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

@Curtis are you suggesting in paragraph 2, the rapture will be pre-tribulation (Phase 2), when we will be coming together with the Lord in the sky and go with our Lord to the Current Heaven and have spiritual bodies. Our spirits and souls go to heaven.

What happens to the physical body at the rapture at this point?