Grace vs the Law, debate #23,578

[Bendito]

Well, yes, but if it is possible for man to not sin, why send Jesus Christ. Just wait for those who do not sin, and enjoy life in the garden.

Quantrill

Thought is so hard for some people! We are Adams decendents...The sin nature is passed down from our parents. So all of us are born with that tendency to sin. Do you really think...uh assume that if Adam had not sinned, nobody else would have gotten sucked in by the devil? Somebody would have sinned somewhere down the line and we would be right where we are!

 

[regibassman57]

@Qyantrill,

If everything God commands a man to do is possible, why did He send Jesus Christ, His only Son?

Quantrill

God sent Jesus for what the law could not do. The "ONLY" thing the law could not do was take away sin.

Acts 13:39
And by Jesus all that believe are justified from all things, from which you "COULD NOT" be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 8:3
For what the law "COULD NOT" do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Scripture doesn't teach Israel "COULD NOT" keep the law, but it teaches Israel "WOULD NOT" keep the law.

Isaiah 42:24
Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the Lord, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

Sin was of Satan, not of Jehovah God.

 

[regibassman57]

@Qyantrill,

That is all true and well and good. But, if God wanted man to remain in innocence, why did he place the tree in the garden? Why did he let satan in the garden? He didn't have to. And everyone could have been forever innocent and pure. Correct?

Quantrill

Man's innocence and purity was suppose to be only from sin; knowledge develops, so Adam and Eve would not have been innocent in understanding. God gave Adam (man) a choice, but God will not make a man do anything. The Tree was there to prove Adam's faithfulness to God's word. God tries the hearts and minds of men to prove them and see if they seek to do His will and keep His ways or not.

Psalms 11:5
The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hates.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord search the heart, I try the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

 

[regibassman57]

@Bendito,

Thought is so hard for some people! We are Adams decendents...The sin nature is passed down from our parents. So all of us are born with that tendency to sin. Do you really think...uh assume that if Adam had not sinned, nobody else would have gotten sucked in by the devil? Somebody would have sinned somewhere down the line and we would be right where we are!

We are on the same page about sin being inherited, but I disagree that someone would have sinned. If Adam had not sinned Satan would have been removed. Just like Jesus represented all men, Adam also represented all men.

 

[Quantrill]

All right...I suggested you think about it, and its obvious that you find it too difficult. So maybe you could think about this... I'm assuming you have kids? OK Every single creature God created has free will...Do you think God would rob his favorite creation of that right to choose? No He would not. If the tree had not been put into the garden there would have been NO choice....Now your kids....Would you rather they could choose to follow your example, or would you rather they have no choice but to follow your every word, your every move like a bunch of Mini-me's? God doe not want mini-mes either...Thus....The tree and we have a choice.

I agree we have been given a will by God for the purpose of choice. But if the tree had not been given by God, and no command to not eat of it, and no satan to entice, Adam and Eve could have lived in innocence forever. Adam and Eve would have still had a will but no command to break. This is why I said, yes, God knew when He placed the tree and satan and the commandment in the garden that Adam would fall. This is why Jesus Christ was seen as "slain from the foundation of the world". (Rev. 13:8)

My point being, Adam and Eve created perfect, in innocence, was not God's desired end. Had it been He could have obtained it easily enough, but didn't. The fall was as much a part of the plan of God as was His salvation. Thus He knew once He gave the commandment, that it would be broken. Sort of just like what Paul said. "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Rom. 7:9)

Just like David said, who not only knew the Law, but knew the heart and mind of God. After his sin with Bath-sheba he came repenting before God and said, (Ps. 51:16) "For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering." But God did command the sacrifices to be given. Yet David is saying that is not really what You want. What You want is a heart after You. "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." (51:17) The Law was not the end of what God wanted. It was a means to an end. It does it's job in always finding us guilty.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Thought is so hard for some people! We are Adams decendents...The sin nature is passed down from our parents. So all of us are born with that tendency to sin. Do you really think...uh assume that if Adam had not sinned, nobody else would have gotten sucked in by the devil? Somebody would have sinned somewhere down the line and we would be right where we are!

Yes, but God could have waited until Adam had children and they had children before He placed the tree in the garden with the command.

I believe if Adam had not sinned, and had children first, that everyone would eventually have sinned against God once the command was given.

My point being: God knew man was not going to keep any law from Him.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

@Qyantrill,


God sent Jesus for what the law could not do. The "ONLY" thing the law could not do was take away sin.

Acts 13:39
And by Jesus all that believe are justified from all things, from which you "COULD NOT" be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 8:3
For what the law "COULD NOT" do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Scripture doesn't teach Israel "COULD NOT" keep the law, but it teaches Israel "WOULD NOT" keep the law.

Isaiah 42:24
Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the Lord, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

Sin was of Satan, not of Jehovah God.

Yes, the Law could not take away sin. But that is not all it could not do. It could not give the believer the power to obey it.

Of course sin is not of God. But here is a thought, do you think if there never had been a satan, just Adam and Eve in the garden with the command not to eat, that they would have never ate?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

@Qyantrill,


Man's innocence and purity was suppose to be only from sin; knowledge develops, so Adam and Eve would not have been innocent in understanding. God gave Adam (man) a choice, but God will not make a man do anything. The Tree was there to prove Adam's faithfulness to God's word. God tries the hearts and minds of men to prove them and see if they seek to do His will and keep His ways or not.

Psalms 11:5
The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hates.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord search the heart, I try the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

If that was all God was after, then He didn't need the tree or the commandment or satan in the garden. He already had man in innocence.

As to your statement that 'God will not make a man do anything', I disagree. I cite only Paul's conversion as an example. Paul didn't come willingly. He came kicking and screaming.

Quantrill

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

Yes, the Law could not take away sin. But that is not all it could not do. It could not give the believer the power to obey it.

Of course sin is not of God. But here is a thought, do you think if there never had been a satan, just Adam and Eve in the garden with the command not to eat, that they would have never ate?

Quantrill

If God told a man to do something they could not do it would be a type of evil trial or temptation. God does not tempted any man with evil. This is what 1Corinthians is teaching. God will not allow a man to be tried above their ability to do a thing.

1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man:but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The scripture says, "what the law "COULD NOT" do" Jesus came and did. Scripture does not teach a man "COULD NOT" obey God, it teaches men "WOULD NOT" obey God. God is Righteous and Faithful to His words of truth. Righteousness will not punish a man for something they could not do.

Scripture teaches the law "COULD NOT" take away sin. Scripture teaches Jesus came and did take away sin. When scripture says "the law could not" it's saying what man could not do.

If Satan was not in the Garden Eve would not have been deceived, therefore, she would not have had an opposed word and would not have eaten of the tree and gave to her husband who was there.

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

If that was all God was after, then He didn't need the tree or the commandment or satan in the garden. He already had man in innocence.

As to your statement that 'God will not make a man do anything', I disagree. I cite only Paul's conversion as an example. Paul didn't come willingly. He came kicking and screaming.

Quantrill

God prove His work - it's that simple. Man prove his work also before it's approved.
Are you saying God took away Paul's will of choice?

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill,


If God told a man to do something they could not do it would be a type of evil trial or temptation. God does not tempted any man with evil. This is what 1Corinthians is teaching. God will not allow a man to be tried above their ability to do a thing.

1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man:but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The scripture says, "what the law "COULD NOT" do" Jesus came and did. Scripture does not teach a man "COULD NOT" obey God, it teaches men "WOULD NOT" obey God. God is Righteous and Faithful to His words of truth. Righteousness will not punish a man for something they could not do.

Scripture teaches the law "COULD NOT" take away sin. Scripture teaches Jesus came and did take away sin. When scripture says "the law could not" it's saying what man could not do.

If Satan was not in the Garden Eve would not have been deceived, therefore, she would not have had an opposed word and would not have eaten of the tree and gave to her husband who was there.

No. The giving of the Law was not evil, or a trial or temptation. It simply was the requirement of what man must be to be found right before God. Just because man could not keep this law, did not make God evil for giving it.

No, what Scripture teaches is that the Law could not empower the believer to do that which God wanted.

No, when Scripture teaches 'the law could not', it means what it says. The Law could not bring or empower the believer to obtain a righteousness by the Law.

Deception is not a law to have one to sin. Thus it would still be possible for Eve to have sinned and then Adam.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill,


God prove His work - it's that simple. Man prove his work also before it's approved.
Are you saying God took away Paul's will of choice?

What are you saying, God's work was proved inadequate?

What is Scripture saying about Paul's will of choice? God didn't come to him with the four spiritual laws and telling him he needs to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour. God knocked him to the ground, blinded him, and told him from here on this is what you will do. (Acts 9:1-19)

How do you read Pauls 'will of choice' there?

Quantrill

 

[regibassman57]

No. The giving of the Law was not evil, or a trial or temptation. It simply was the requirement of what man must be to be found right before God. Just because man could not keep this law, did not make God evil for giving it.

No, what Scripture teaches is that the Law could not empower the believer to do that which God wanted.

No, when Scripture teaches 'the law could not', it means what it says. The Law could not bring or empower the believer to obtain a righteousness by the Law.

Deception is not a law to have one to sin. Thus it would still be possible for Eve to have sinned and then Adam.

Quantrill

I never said the law was evil. God will not try a believer with evil; therefore, God will not command a person to do what He knows a man cannot do and then punish them for not doing what they could not do. Scripture doesn't teach Israel could not keep the law. David kept the law, Asa kept the law, etc. In the day of the Judges Israel kept the law. So the issue is not that Israel could not keep the law, but it's they would not keep the law in the times they made that choice.

Scripture specifically says the law could not take away sin.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Hebrews 10:3
But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The only understanding Adam or Eve had in their minds is what they heard from God. They only had one source of understanding and they had no opposing view until the devil presented deception. It was impossible for Adam or Eve to conjure up any information of themselves that was contrary to what God told them. They were in complete oneness of mind with God until Satan gave them a difference thought. When we as believers read God's word, we don't try and think anything different than what God's word says; but Satan is the one that present to us a different view; not ourselves. Satan is the deceiver, not man.

 

[Quantrill]

I never said the law was evil. God will not try a believer with evil; therefore, God will not command a person to do what He knows a man cannot do and then punish them for not doing what they could not do. Scripture doesn't teach Israel could not keep the law. David kept the law, Asa kept the law, etc. In the day of the Judges Israel kept the law. So the issue is not that Israel could not keep the law, but it's they would not keep the law in the times they made that choice.

Scripture specifically says the law could not take away sin.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Hebrews 10:3
But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The only understanding Adam or Eve had in their minds is what they heard from God. They only had one source of understanding and they had no opposing view until the devil presented deception. It was impossible for Adam or Eve to conjure up any information of themselves that was contrary to what God told them. They were in complete oneness of mind with God until Satan gave them a difference thought. When we as believers read God's word, we don't try and think anything different than what God's word says; but Satan is the one that present to us a different view; not ourselves. Satan is the deceiver, not man.

Scripture certainly does teach that Israel could not keep the Law. I showed already the Scriptures. (Ex. 24:3) "All the words which the LORD hath said will we do." (Ex. 24:8) "And Moses took the blood...and said, Behold the blood...." Don't you see. If you can keep the law, you don't need the blood. Correct?

Really, David kept the Law? What would Bath-sheba and Uriah think about that? (2 Sam. 11)

I already told you that I know the law cannot take away sin. And, neither can the law empower the believer to obey the law.

Quantrill

 

[regibassman57]

Quantrill,

What are you saying, God's work was proved inadequate?

What is Scripture saying about Paul's will of choice? God didn't come to him with the four spiritual laws and telling him he needs to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour. God knocked him to the ground, blinded him, and told him from here on this is what you will do. (Acts 9:1-19)

How do you read Pauls 'will of choice' there?

Quantrill

I never said God's work was inadequate... I'm saying God gives choices and those that believe will do what He says and those that do not will not serve Him. Israel would not do God will because they chose not to believe Him. Scripture teaches Israel hardened their heart to God and His law.

Deuteronomy 32:20
And God said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
Deuteronomy 32:21
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people;
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

God punished Israel because they would not believe in obedience to His word. Israel was stiff-necked against God and would not obey Him.

Hebrews 3:10
Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Exodus 32:9
And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

Plenty scripture teach Israel would not keep the law; not that they could not rep the law.

 

[regibassman57]

What are you saying, God's work was proved inadequate?

What is Scripture saying about Paul's will of choice? God didn't come to him with the four spiritual laws and telling him he needs to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour. God knocked him to the ground, blinded him, and told him from here on this is what you will do. (Acts 9:1-19)

How do you read Pauls 'will of choice' there?

Quantrill

Paul was a faithful servant in what he believed and God knew it. God knows the intent of a man's heart, so God chose to reveal Himself to Paul in the way. If the information was not correct Paul had a choice. Satan forces a believer to do his will emotionally, God doesn't.

 

[Quantrill]

Quantrill,


I never said God's work was inadequate... I'm saying God gives choices and those that believe will do what He says and those that do not will not serve Him. Israel would not do God will because they chose not to believe Him. Scripture teaches Israel hardened their heart to God and His law.

Deuteronomy 32:20
And God said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
Deuteronomy 32:21
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people;
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

God punished Israel because they would not believe in obedience to His word. Israel was stiff-necked against God and would not obey Him.

Hebrews 3:10
Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Exodus 32:9
And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

Plenty scripture teach Israel would not keep the law; not that they could not rep the law.

You keep saying you never said this or that when you did. Post [HASH=1656]#(49[/HASH]) you said God would not give the law if man could not keep it as that would be evil. But man cannot keep the law as I pointed out. You then say in post [HASH=1657]#(53[/HASH]) that you never said the law was evil. But that is exactly what you said because God gave the law knowing man could not keep the law.

You say in post [HASH=1658]#(50[/HASH]) that God placed the tree in the garden to prove His work. But of course Adam and Eve failed in the garden. To which I said, was God's work inadequate. Post [HASH=1659]#(52[/HASH]) To which you reply that you didn't say that. Post [HASH=1660]#(55[/HASH]) But that is exctly what you said when you said God would prove His work. And apparently, according to you, God 's work was inadequate.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Paul was a faithful servant in what he believed and God knew it. God knows the intent of a man's heart, so God chose to reveal Himself to Paul in the way. If the information was not correct Paul had a choice. Satan forces a believer to do his will emotionally, God doesn't.

That wasn't satan who knocked Paul to the ground and blinded him. And then told him this is what you are going to do. No, God has no problem using force of any kind upon one who will be a believer or who is a believer.

Quantrill

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

Scripture certainly does teach that Israel could not keep the Law. I showed already the Scriptures. (Ex. 24:3) "All the words which the LORD hath said will we do." (Ex. 24:8) "And Moses took the blood...and said, Behold the blood...." Don't you see. If you can keep the law, you don't need the blood. Correct?

Really, David kept the Law? What would Bath-sheba and Uriah think about that? (2 Sam. 11)

I already told you that I know the law cannot take away sin. And, neither can the law empower the believer to obey the law.

Quantrill

David kept the law.

1 Kings 15:5
Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

Psalms 119:55
I have remembered thy name, O Lord, in the night, and have kept thy law.
Psalms 119:56
This I had, because I kept thy precepts.
Psalms 119:57
Thou art my portion, O Lord: I have said that I would keep thy words.
Psalms 119:60
I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments.

You haven't showed me scripture that says Israel could not keep the law. These scriptures do not teach Israel could not keep the law, it teaches Israel had a way of Mercy until they learned. Also, I never said Israel kept the law from start to finish perfectly; my point is they could learn to keep the law as we can learn to obey and be perfect in Christ.
As Israel had a sacrifice to cover them, we have a sacrifice to keep us.

The verses, (Ex. 24:3) (Ex. 24:8), do not teach Israel could not keep the law.

 

[regibassman57]

That wasn't satan who knocked Paul to the ground and blinded him. And then told him this is what you are going to do. No, God has no problem using force of any kind upon one who will be a believer or who is a believer.

Quantrill

Are you teaching God takes a person's choice from them?