I want to intervene for one person already in hell.

[Sue D.]

Christianity 101 -- would be the Gospel unto salvation to be sharing with all will Willingly listen.

Each person is responsible for their Personal decision to follow Christ or not. Hopefully our life will draw others To Christ. We Should be concerned for a person Before they die -- be willing and Wanting to lead them to salvation. Now.

 

[quaadd]

Their intention is good. They not really grasping or guilty of what you are proposing.

We should all want to intervene / sacrifice our spot for those in hell. This is Christianity 101.

If you are wrong will God punish you
for misleading some one even if you had good intentions?

 

[Sue D.]

"Good intentions" on anyone's part don't count for anything and Can cause problems.

 

[povawiqe]

You know how Moses intervened for the people of Egypt many times “convincing God to not kill them?” Or when Jesus wanted to come down and sacrifice himself for all of humanity? I want to intervene for one person in hell and take their place so that they can be in heaven for what Jesus did for me and throw my gift away to someone in hell and take their place. Someone is probably going to say “do not throw your treasures to the swine” like Jesus said. Everyone looks out for their own salvation. What if it’s possible? Could we? How can i be sure that i can pray to be sent to hell in the place of one person in hell. With the way God takes “intervening.” Would I be able to save someone? Am I that valuable to God? Just like his love for Moses when Moses said not to kill those people that were worshiping that golden calf? I want to sacrifice my salvation for someone in hell and it doesn’t matter who. Is this possible?

No one is in hell, because hell does not exist, yet. The "lake of fire" will be outside the southern wall of old Jerusalem, which will form into a lake of lava, which is why Yeshuah called that fiery place "Gehenna", which means "valley of Hinnom". He was actually telling us where it was going to be, in correlation with this prophecy,

…declares Yehovah, whose fire is in Zion, and whose furnace is in Jerusalem. (Isaiah 31:9)

Read this study about hell, The Lake of Lava, the True Mount Zion, and the True Location of Gehenna and the Judgment | Wisdom of God .

So rather than pray for a person to not be in a place where that person is not, because it doesn't exist, yet, seek the resurrection of that person, so that their soul, which is in a state of sleep, may be taken out of Sheol, and brought back into a resurrected body, to then have an opportunity to serve God, and in this way, be delivered from the lake of fire in the future, when the judgment of the living and the dead does happen. This is indeed possible, if your heart so desires it, to plea for mercy over someone who has already died. All things are possible with God, and he is merciful. But for God to give you this request, you must not only believe in Yeshuah, which I assume you already do, which is why you're in this forum, but you must also obey the Torah of God, which is the Law of God, and lower yourself in the way Yeshuah required, "sell your possessions", and then begin to do the good works towards the poor required by Yeshuah and the Torah. Then God will listen to your prayers, but not before. Watch out also for the "mark of the beast", which now exists, and is probably in your wallet right now, fiat currency, through paper money, or through digital money in the form of debit or credit cards, which are contrary to the Torah of God. Obey, through belief, then you will be heard, and perhaps through you, this person who has died, will be spared also, should God choose to fulfill your request of resurrecting this person from the dead.

 

[David Young]

The rabbi from Nazarene called the place Gehenna for the same reason that I call Wrocław Wrocław: that was the name of the place. It was a dump where bodies were abandoned and burned.

 

[povawiqe]

The rabbi from Nazarene called the place Gehenna for the same reason that I call Wrocław Wrocław: that was the name of the place. It was a dump where bodies were abandoned and burned.

Which is also the place where the lake of lava will actually be, because just as the prophecy states, the furnace of God will be in Jerusalem, because the lava that will form there will come from Mount Zion, which will form at the second coming of the Messiah, in accordance to "whose fire is in Zion", and that lava will flow to the south, towards Negev, and to the north, to the valley of Hinnom, on the southern side of old Jerusalem, exactly as predicted by another prophet also, Ezekiel,

…The blazing flame shall not be quenched, and all surfaces from south to north shall be scorched by it. All flesh shall see that I Yehovah have kindled it; it shall not be quenched. (Ezekiel 20:47-48)

And it is in that place, where men around it will see dead bodies, who will die being thrown into that lake of lava, as prophesied by Isaiah,

And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind. (Isaiah 66:24)

It is time you people stopped believing the fantasies and myths you are being told by your churches, and truly understand these prophecies.

 

[Sue D.]

@ povawiqe -- while I Do agree that there is Presently no hell -- thus, no one is in it Yet. It Will exist.

And you have included Lots of prophesy. And I DID click into the article you listed. Scripture itself says to NOT try to set dates for when anything is going to happen.

God's Word gives us enough information about hell to know we Don't want to end up there for eternity. And we Are told how to stay Out of there and be able to BE in heaven. Which will be the New Jerusalem. God will bring it down from heaven to be the new - eternal home for His people -- born-again believers.

Our churches Need to be teaching Bible and not simply what people Want to hear. There are Lots of churches that teach that Bible is only fantasy and myths. That people who Do believe God's Word are a bit 'weird' -- that 'we' need to be more in tune with science.

Maybe more of a balance in teaching God's Word. Prophesy Is great // so is teaching the Gospels -- especially the Gospel unto salvation.

Sometimes studying prophesy only -- we can misunderstand what we're reading. Because God's Word says that people in hell -- in eternity -- will be in utter darkness -- nashing of teeth. That does not sound like anyone is going to be walking around looking on any dead bodies of those who rebelled against me." So -- apparently it's talking about some other location.

The Isaiah passage -- just looked it up -- it's comparing the New heaven and earth WITH Israels' situation then and there.

And, in this present world -- it's NOT getting any better and it won't. Scripture Does tell us that in spite Of this world, we Do need to stand up For God's Word. We need to be reading it --know what God's telling us.

Trying to say exactly where it Will be , etc. our 'goal' Should be to share the Gospel unto Salvation -- no one Has to end up in those horrible conditions. Hell will be as everlasting as heaven.

 

[David Young]

Typo edit: I should have written "The rabbi from Nazareth", not "from Nazarene".

 

[povawiqe]

@ povawiqe -- while I Do agree that there is Presently no hell -- thus, no one is in it Yet. It Will exist.

And you have included Lots of prophesy. And I DID click into the article you listed. Scripture itself says to NOT try to set dates for when anything is going to happen.

God's Word gives us enough information about hell to know we Don't want to end up there for eternity. And we Are told how to stay Out of there and be able to BE in heaven. Which will be the New Jerusalem. God will bring it down from heaven to be the new - eternal home for His people -- born-again believers.

Our churches Need to be teaching Bible and not simply what people Want to hear. There are Lots of churches that teach that Bible is only fantasy and myths. That people who Do believe God's Word are a bit 'weird' -- that 'we' need to be more in tune with science.

Maybe more of a balance in teaching God's Word. Prophesy Is great // so is teaching the Gospels -- especially the Gospel unto salvation.

Sometimes studying prophesy only -- we can misunderstand what we're reading. Because God's Word says that people in hell -- in eternity -- will be in utter darkness -- nashing of teeth. That does not sound like anyone is going to be walking around looking on any dead bodies of those who rebelled against me." So -- apparently it's talking about some other location.

The Isaiah passage -- just looked it up -- it's comparing the New heaven and earth WITH Israels' situation then and there.

And, in this present world -- it's NOT getting any better and it won't. Scripture Does tell us that in spite Of this world, we Do need to stand up For God's Word. We need to be reading it --know what God's telling us.

Trying to say exactly where it Will be , etc. our 'goal' Should be to share the Gospel unto Salvation -- no one Has to end up in those horrible conditions. Hell will be as everlasting as heaven.

No one will be in hell for "eternity", that is another lie spoken by the churches, which came through the Roman popes. Whoever is thrown into hell will die, and will cease to exist, destruction, both of body and soul. God has already predestined all who will be delivered, there would be no purpose in him predestining people to suffer for eternity. The only purpose of the lawless serve is to reveal the wrath, power, and judgment of God through them, and once that purpose is served, they will cease to exist, in the lake of lava, outside the southern wall of old Jerusalem. Understand.

 

[Sue D.]

Well -- I'm not RCC and so don't pay any attention to what the Roman pope or any pope says.

Book of Revelation says in chapter 20:10 "And the devil, who deceived the, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beat and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." A few verses later there is the great white throne judgement.

Lots of people don't take the book of Revelation as being literal.

No one likes to think of God as being a loving heavenly Father sending anyone to spend eternity in hell. In This world -- our experience is with fire that eventually burns itself out. Either they are put out by people with hoses, etc. or the fire burns up it's source of fuel and goes out on it's own. And , normally, a person dies of smoke inhalation Before they die from the fire, itself.

God Would that all of humanity Would accept Him as their personal Savior. But He Also knows who will and who won't. And 'who so ever believeth will not perish but have everlasting life. God does Not send anyone To hell -- except those already mentioned in Revelation 20. But those who reject God's Way to heaven Will end up in hell -- just like the people who hell was prepared For.

 

[KingJ]

If you are wrong will God punish you
for misleading some one even if you had good intentions?

No. God is not dumb.

 

[KingJ]

"Good intentions" on anyone's part don't count for anything and Can cause problems.

Good intentions is everything.

The poster in the OP has good intentions. Wanting to lay your life down for others is Christianity 101.

You say Christianity 101 is ''sharing the gospel unto salvation'', yes, but what is the gospel? It is laying our lives down for God as He lay His down for us Matt 16:24. Without this we do not get saved / meet Jesus. It is obeying the two commandments which are 1. to lay our life down for God and 2. for others. The poster in the OP is in their own way fulfilling the second.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

We should ''all'' want to do this. Some of the replies here are shocking.

 

[Sue D.]

The Gospel unto salvation is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1 - 3 "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you. which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this Gospel you are saved.... that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures."

Romans 10:9 - 10 "That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with our heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "if anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take hp his cross and follow me. vs 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

Actually -- we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul and mind and then our neighbor as ourselves.

Yes, John 15:13 that has nothing to do with our salvation or lack there of.

The opening statement -- a person wanting to intervene for someone already in hell. Is not what you're talking about. That's not what Jesus Christ did on the cross. He died on the cross for the Living. That choice can only be made while we're alive.

If I am in a situation where I might end up dying in order to save someone's life who is still very much alive, then I'd be giving my life to save theirs. I know I'm spending eternity in heaven, I might not have that knowledge about that other person. So I would be ending my own life -- knowing I'd be in heaven -- in order that the Other person would still have a chance to accept Christ as personal Savior if they hadn't already done that. Husbands have been known to shield their wives during a bad storm or 'whatever' tornado -- they die and their wives survived. Parent's / mother's with children. The same thing. That is love. But that action on your part won't 'save' you or them in eternity.

 

[KingJ]

Actually -- we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul and mind and then our neighbor as ourselves.

Part of loving God is loving others.

Yes, John 15:13 that has nothing to do with our salvation or lack there of.

I believe it does.

Laying your life down is the greatest act of love. Thus, it is saying, God loves us to the uttermost evidenced by Him laying His life down for us. Likewise He knows we love Him, because we lay our lives down for Him. According to Matt 16:24 and much other scripture, anything short of this is not satisfactory. Now, when it comes to the second commandment, we fulfil it by laying our lives down for others. Anything else is simply not a true fulfillment. This is what the poster in the OP is proposing they do.

The opening statement -- a person wanting to intervene for someone already in hell. Is not what you're talking about. That's not what Jesus Christ did on the cross. He died on the cross for the Living. That choice can only be made while we're alive.

The title says that, sure. But the last line in their OP post says they want to trade places. It is ''exactly what Jesus did on the cross''.

Of course we cannot do this. But we do not bash their intention. We advise on why it is not possible to do so.

If I am in a situation where I might end up dying in order to save someone's life who is still very much alive, then I'd be giving my life to save theirs. I know I'm spending eternity in heaven, I might not have that knowledge about that other person. So I would be ending my own life -- knowing I'd be in heaven

This sounds terrible Sue. This is not evidence of truly laying your life down for someone else.

in order that the Other person would still have a chance to accept Christ as personal Savior if they hadn't already done that. Husbands have been known to shield their wives during a bad storm or 'whatever' tornado -- they die and their wives survived. Parent's / mother's with children. The same thing. That is love. But that action on your part won't 'save' you or them in eternity.

Selflessness of this kind is a giant leap toward God. God is watching all of us. What do you think God meant when He said of David ''there is a man after my own heart''?

 

[KingJ]

No one will be in hell for "eternity", that is another lie spoken by the churches, which came through the Roman popes. Whoever is thrown into hell will die, and will cease to exist, destruction, both of body and soul. God has already predestined all who will be delivered, there would be no purpose in him predestining people to suffer for eternity. The only purpose of the lawless serve is to reveal the wrath, power, and judgment of God through them, and once that purpose is served, they will cease to exist, in the lake of lava, outside the southern wall of old Jerusalem. Understand.

This viewpoint fails terribly at defending free will. Free will is good. God is good. So, this viewpoint paints God as evil. God is not evil according to scripture. 1 John 1:5 God is light with no darkness in Him at all.

To uphold what is good, God has to provide true free will. True free will requires an eternal hell.

The options are A. Serve God, hate what is wicked and go to eternity with Him. Or B. Reject God, love what is wicked and live eternally without Him in your face forcing you to do what you hate. Like loving others.

The options are not A. Serve God and hate is wicked. or B. Die.

Serve me or die. Be my bride, or die. Uhm what? Is that how you proposed to your wife?

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Stop miss-representing Him. You are cherry picking verses and making a terrible insinuation of an exceedingly good God.

 

[povawiqe]

This viewpoint fails terribly at defending free will. Free will is good. God is good. So, this viewpoint paints God as evil. God is not evil according to scripture. 1 John 1:5 God is light with no darkness in Him at all.

To uphold what is good, God has to provide true free will. True free will requires an eternal hell.

The options are A. Serve God, hate what is wicked and go to eternity with Him. Or B. Reject God, love what is wicked and live eternally without Him in your face forcing you to do what you hate. Like loving others.

The options are not A. Serve God and hate is wicked. or B. Die.

Serve me or die. Uhm what?

People weep and gnash their teeth because they look up and see that they are cast out Luke 13:28. Their torment is eternal Dan 12:2.

Their punishment is God honoring their free will decision to hate Him.

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

The scriptures say that God,

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I Yehovah do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)

And that God has predestined everything, including who will be delivered, and who will not be,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be set-apart and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4)

But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers beloved by the Master, that God has chosen you from the beginning unto deliverance in the set-apartness of the airflow, and by belief of the truth; (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Master, and as many as were appointed to aeonial life believed. (Acts 13:48)

This is why there is no "eternal torment" in Gehenna, because God has predestined already who will be condemned to be thrown in it from before the foundation of the world. There would be no point in predestining the lawless to eternity in Gehenna. The only purpose of existence of the lawless is to reveal the wrath, power, and judgment of God through them, and once that purpose is served, they serve no other purpose, but to cease to exist,

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22)

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” (John 12:40)

…he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18)

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God’s purpose in election might stand.” (R0mans 9:11-13)

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:44)

Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4)

As such, whoever believes in "eternal torment" in Gehenna has zero understanding of God, and reveals himself to not be chosen, because the topic of predestination is understood by all who have been predestined to be delivered.

 

[KingJ]

The scriptures say that God,

1. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I Yehovah do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)

And that God has predestined everything, including who will be delivered, and who will not be,

2. even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be set-apart and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4)

3. But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers beloved by the Master, that God has chosen you from the beginning unto deliverance in the set-apartness of the airflow, and by belief of the truth; (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

4. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

5. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29)

6 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Master, and as many as were appointed to aeonial life believed. (Acts 13:48)

7. This is why there is no "eternal torment" in Gehenna, because God has predestined already who will be condemned to be thrown in it from before the foundation of the world. There would be no point in predestining the lawless to eternity in Gehenna. The only purpose of existence of the lawless is to reveal the wrath, power, and judgment of God through them, and once that purpose is served, they serve no other purpose, but to cease to exist,

8. What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22)

9. “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” (John 12:40)

10 …he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18)

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God’s purpose in election might stand.” (R0mans 9:11-13)

12 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:44)

13 Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4)

14 As such, whoever believes in "eternal torment" in Gehenna has zero understanding of God, and reveals himself to not be chosen, because the topic of predestination is understood by all who have been predestined to be delivered.

This is gross miss-representation of God my friend. You have raised all the support for Calvinism in one post. My reply is referenced bullet points, too much to quote.

1. He does all these thing to create an environment of true free will. He is not to blame for, for example 'what Nero did to Christians'. So it is incorrect to only leave the reader with the statement ''He creates evil''. We are charged to properly represent God to the unsaved.

2. He chose the whomsoever would accept Him, to be the ''chosen'' to be in Christ. All this verse solidifies is that those chosen, would be in Christ. There is no other way to Him. Your bolding and underlining leaves the reader to assume God cherry picked those who would be in Christ. This would imply God is partial. Evil. God is not partial Acts 10:34.

3. Not all brothers in attendance at meetings were chosen in Him. Many were mortal sinners who were cast out / to be cast out. Just read 1 Cor 5. The verse you quoted is speaking to those in attendance. Saved and unsaved. IE It is saying that God chose all from the beginning. Why not take a literal reading of a verse like 1 Tim 2:4? 'God wills that all be saved'.

4 & 5. He pre-destined, called, justified and glorified the ''whomsoever would accept Him''. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

6. Please read the full passage for better context. ''Acts 13:46-48 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. For this is what the Lord has commanded us: “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth. When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. You cannot bold and underline your words without considering these bolded and underlined words as well. Put them all together and you will arrive at a different interpretation to yours. We also cannot read such verses in isolation to the rest of scripture.

7. This is all your inserted assumption, no offence. Meditate on this verse please. 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

8. Note that verse starts with 'what if'. Paul is making the point that God can do anything. God can be evil. This does not mean God is evil. The rest of scripture tells us what in fact God does decide to do with His omnipotence and omniscience. He decides to be good. Exceedingly good. Peter grasped this in Acts 10:34. He said '' of a truth I perceive, God is no respecter of persons''. David says in Psalm 136:1 ''Give thanks because God is good''. As Christians we too can and should grasp this. God is omnipotent + omniscient + good + love. Let's not teach half truths.

9 & 10. This verse speaks of a point of no return. When Pharaoh's heart was hardened for example, it is because he had made his heart known to God. So God withdrew from Him. When light leaves a room, there is only utter darkness. It is the same concept. It is completely false to say, God made his heart utter darkness. God is forced out. God leaves. That 'leaving them' is what scripture is referring to as hardening / blinded. God does not reveal to them what they don't want to see. They do want to see magic, they don't want to see Jesus.

11. This verse speaks to them being chosen for a purpose. Not sinner verse saint. Heaven verse hell. How can God hate Esau as a child? Jesus says heaven belongs to children Matt 19:14.

12. Yes and we know from hundreds of scriptures, who God calls to Jesus. Example Psalm 51:17 - the person that sincerely repents. My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise. Rev 3:20 The person who opens the door to Jesus knocking. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. Jesus is knocking on the door to everyone's heart. We know this because it says ''anyone''.

13. God has shown His kindness, His goodness, His love to everyone!

14. I would rather ask why someone serve a God they believe to be so wicked. I serve God because He is good. I agree with David in Psalm 136:1.

I pray you learn to better understand God. Grasp that He holds Himself to doing what is good, because He chooses to be good.

I can only see a further discussion with you if we get straight to the heart of the core issues. Namely, explain to me how 1. Cherry picking people for heaven is not partiality. 2. How partiality is not wicked and 3. How He expects to find a true bride via this route.

God is not closed to judgement. He wants a bride that judges and approves of Him. He has given us this ability!!! Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

I believe God is good and has no darkness in Him at all. This is the message we have heard from the beginning. Your message conflicts with that 100%. 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from the beginning and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

 

[povawiqe]

This is gross miss-representation of God my friend. You have raised all the support for Calvinism in one post.

1. He does all these thing to create an environment of true free will. He is not to blame for, for example 'what Nero did to Christians'. So it is incorrect to only leave the reader with the statement ''He creates evil''. We are charged to properly represent God to the unsaved.

2. He chose the whomsoever would accept Him, to be the ''chosen'' to be in Christ. All this verse solidifies is that those chosen, would be in Christ. There is no other way to Him. Your bolding and underlining leaves the reader to assume God cherry picked those who would be in Christ. This would imply God is partial. Evil. God is not partial Acts 10:34.

3. Not all brothers in attendance at meetings were chosen in Him. Many were mortal sinners who were cast out / to be cast out. Just read 1 Cor 5. The verse you quoted is speaking to those in attendance. Saved and unsaved. IE It is saying that God chose all from the beginning. Why not take a literal reading of a verse like 1 Tim 2:4? 'God wills that all be saved'.

4 & 5. He pre-destined, called, justified and glorified the ''whomsoever would accept Him''. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

6. Please read the full passage for better context. ''Acts 13:46-48 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. For this is what the Lord has commanded us: “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth. When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. You cannot bold and underline your words without considering these bolded and underlined words as well. Put them all together and you will arrive at a different interpretation to yours. We also cannot read such verses in isolation to the rest of scripture.

7. This is all your inserted assumption, no offence. Meditate on this verse please. 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

8. Note that verse starts with 'what if'. Paul is making the point that God can do anything. God can be evil. This does not mean God is evil. The rest of scripture tells us what in fact God does decide to do with His omnipotence and omniscience. He decides to be good. Exceedingly good. Peter grasped this in Acts 10:34. He said '' of a truth I perceive, God is no respecter of persons''. David says in Psalm 136:1 ''Give thanks because God is good''. As Christians we too can and should grasp this. God is omnipotent + omniscient + good + love. Let's not teach half truths.

9 & 10. This verse speaks of a point of no return. When Pharaoh's heart was hardened for example, it is because he had made his heart known to God. So God withdrew from Him. When light leaves a room, there is only utter darkness. It is the same concept. It is completely false to say, God made his heart utter darkness. God is forced out. God leaves. That 'leaving them' is what scripture is referring to as hardening / blinded. God does not reveal to them what they don't want to see. They do want to see magic, they don't want to see Jesus.

11. This verse speaks to them being chosen for a purpose. Not sinner verse saint. Heaven verse hell. How can God hate Esau as a child? Jesus says heaven belongs to children Matt 19:14.

12. Yes and we know from hundreds of scriptures, who God calls to Jesus. Example Psalm 51:17 - the person that sincerely repents. My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise. Rev 3:20 The person who opens the door to Jesus knocking. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. Jesus is knocking on the door to everyone's heart. We know this because it says ''anyone''.

13. God has shown His kindness, His goodness, His love to everyone!

14. I would rather ask why someone serve a God they believe to be so wicked. I serve God because He is good. I agree with David in Psalm 136:1.

I pray you learn to better understand God. Grasp that He holds Himself to doing what is good, because He chooses to be good.

I can only see a further discussion with you if this discussion gets straight to the heart of the issues. Namely, explain to me how 1. Cherry picking people for heaven is not partiality and 2. How partiality is not wicked.

God is not closed to judgement. He wants a bride that judges and approves of Him. He has given us this ability!!! Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

Convince me that partiality is good and I will convert. Until then I will not reply to further discussion on scripture I believe you are cherry picking. Let's have a rational discussion.

I believe God is good and has no darkness in Him at all. This is the message we have heard from the beginning. Your message conflicts with that 100%. 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from the beginning and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

Here you are rejecting that God as the creator has the authority to choose who he will deliver and who he will not, yet you readily believe God would torment men for all eternity. You perceive the authority of God to predestine as evil, yet your belief is far more worse than if God did indeed predestine or not, eternal never ending torment. As I said, those who reject predestination reveal themselves to not be chosen, because their lack of understanding is self evident, which is why they give themselves over to foolish doctrines.

 

[Sue D.]

God DOES have all-knowledge -- we don't. Two sides to the coin -- on one side -- God Does know who will and who won't. On the Other side - We are Told to go and make disciples of men. WE don't know who will and who won't. Would We have a chain-saw murdered end up in heaven? No, we want him / her to suffer in hell Forever. Especially if one of his/ her victims was one of our family. But -- Maybe that chain-saw murdered will hear about Gospel unto salvation while In prison and his heart will be touched and will accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior. And then take the little old lady / man who's been sharing Christ all their lives. But it's been entirely Head knowledge with them. They've Never accepted what they've been sharing for Themselves and that person Also dies. So -- the nice older person ends up in hell and the chain-saw murderer ends up in heaven. I presented this scenario in another Forum and just about got banned.

My point is that only God has 'this' knowledge. We are to share to whom ever is willing to listen.

There Has to be both reward for Good and punishment for Bad. We see it all the time in life. And even in prison -- there is the ultimate punishment -- death penalty. And both death and life in prison are presented in the Old Testament. Sanctuary cities -- there were 8 of them or maybe 6. A person Could flee to one of them -- when inside -- no one could get in and harm the person. Outside it's walls, the person was 'fair game' to any family members/ close friends who kill him. If found guilty when reaching the sanctuary city -- he would stay there until he died. Otherwise he would be there until the priest died -- if it was a Young priest, the person would be there a Long time. If an Old priest, then not so long.

Maybe we need to remember that Calvin and Armenias were only men. Strong opinions for sure. And they have gained Great popularity over the years. Personally, I'm a middle of the road person.

We are given our instructions from God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. We know that Every person has a soul that will spend eternity in either heaven or hell. We're okay with satan, false prophet and the beast being in torment Forever. But we Don't like to think of a person -- like Us -- having to endure that kind of suffering Forever. A loving God simply would Not Do that. We Do need to remember that God has told us in His Word Exactly how to stay out of hell and be able to in heaven for ever. So -- it's an individual decision for Each person as to where he/she will end up.

We have 'light' in This world, because of God. God Won't be in hell. Thus, total , utter Darkness. Ever been in Total Darkness. I have for a very short time. Can't see your hand in front of your face. yuck.

 

[KingJ]

Here you are rejecting that God as the creator has the authority to choose who he will deliver and who he will not, yet you readily believe God would torment men for all eternity. You perceive the authority of God to predestine as evil, yet your belief is far more worse than if God did indeed predestine or not, eternal never ending torment. As I said, those who reject predestination reveal themselves to not be chosen, because their lack of understanding is self evident, which is why they give themselves over to foolish doctrines.

Well now we getting somewhere. You accept annihilation and Calvinism because you disagree with eternal torment. That is like swallowing a lessor evil God over an extremely evil God. How about, just accept scripture. Accept the revelation of Jesus Eph 3:18. God is very good.

We need to ask the question considering who God is. Namely 'How does a good God deal with those sold out to wickedness'. What good person, what Christian says '''accept or die?''. I want to propose none. Absolutely nobody in their right mind who professes to be a good person would enforce that. Nobody!!! If anyone of us said that we would all agree they are mad and if we didn't, we just needed to be on the receiving end of such judgement to grasp it.

Now granted, it is not simply a case of 'accept or die' as wicked are wicked. But, not all wicked are extremely wicked. The righteous are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18. Hence, hell does not consist of only extremely wicked people. It consists of all that crossed a line, but on the other side of that line there are still degrees. Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done''.

So, how does a good God deal with those that hate Him more then they love Him? Well, I would like to start with considering His instruction to us in Matt 5:44 Love your enemies. God is not a hypocrite. He loves His enemies. He can only love. Yet the dilemma is, they hate Him. They will not change. So what do you do as a good God? Not an unreasonable question for us to answer as we are on the level of God in understanding what is right and wrong Gen 3:22 / IE a fitting punishment we can judge 1 Cor 6:1-9.

Well what do good people do with those that hate them? Geneva convention. Russians refused to sign. Allies signed. Geneva convention stipulated the fair treatment but yet separation of the wicked enemy. Are we to compare our God with the Russians (of WW2) or the Allies? Should a Christian not do better then the Geneva convention? Yes. Then what of a God that is light with no darkness in Him at all?. That defines Himself as love? 1 John 4:8.

I propose that hell is as nice a place as possible from God's doing. But it is a place of misery and suffering because of who you are and whom you are surrounded with for all eternity.

Note Luke 13:28 says ''they weeped and gnashed their teeth when they looked up and saw God and the prophets''.

To understand an eternal hell you need to first understand true free will.

To understand true free will from an omniscient and omnipotent God, you need to understand His goodness. Christians do. We have absolutely no excuse for miss-representing God!!!