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I want to intervene for one person already in hell.

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Loyal Member
Not every franchise of Christianity takes the view that anyone at all is in hell at the moment. A fair number are of the belief that the dead are currently just that, dead. They look to a future resurrection in which their eternal destiny will be declared following a final judgement, but they teach that this has not happened yet.


You Are right -- no one is in heaven or hell at this time. And , actually, heaven is really the New Jerusalem that God will bring down from 'heaven' with Him. This present world Will be destroyed. Believers are with Jesus Christ.
And there's no purgatory , either. Non born-again people are in a section of Abrahams' bosom waiting for final judgement. And I'm thinking that 'torments' is where they are. The account of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man ended up in whatever that section of Abraham's bosom is called. He was told that there's a great abyss. He is begging 'someone' to please put a drop of water on his tongue and to please warn his brothers who are still alive -- that 'hell' is really Real and to stop messing around.
 
New Member
Whether a Christian believes in purgatory depends on a handful of factors, including whether they think 2 Maccabees should be in the Bible, but also on what they think of a few parts of the New Testament which are cited as supporting it. If you would like to know why the Roman Catholic church think it is real, and what the Orthodox think, there are plenty of their adherents who would be happy to tell you.
 
Loyal Member
Whether a Christian believes in purgatory depends on a handful of factors, including whether they think 2 Maccabees should be in the Bible, but also on what they think of a few parts of the New Testament which are cited as supporting it. If you would like to know why the Roman Catholic church think it is real, and what the Orthodox think, there are plenty of their adherents who would be happy to tell you.
Purgatory is only really taught in the Maccabees. One would need to stretch for support outside of this. Even so, I am no completely against the idea of a Purgatory. This however does not deal with the question posed in the OP. Mortal sinners do not go to Purgatory.

A belief that would comfort us on our loved ones in hell would be universalism. In theory a forgive-able belief as God is love. God is light with no darkness in Him at all. God loves His enemies. But not true as God does not place wolves with lambs. Those that go to hell are mortal sinners / people sold out to a love of sin. This is a fact the poster in the OP needs to grasp.

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
 
Loyal Member
One of the problems With belief in purgatory is that the RCC determines how long any person has to be in there to atone for their sins before they are 'good enough' to enter heaven. And That is contrary to Scripture. The part where 'we' are told in Ephesians 2 that Not of works -- salvation is a gift from God. That Jesus Christ did all that was necessary to secure a ;person's salvation. But a person Does need to accept the gift Of salvation. But , once a person is Dead, their eternal destination is a done deal. After death, no second chances.
 
Loyal Member
One of the problems With belief in purgatory is that the RCC determines how long any person has to be in there to atone for their sins before they are 'good enough' to enter heaven. And That is contrary to Scripture. The part where 'we' are told in Ephesians 2 that Not of works -- salvation is a gift from God. That Jesus Christ did all that was necessary to secure a ;person's salvation. But a person Does need to accept the gift Of salvation. But , once a person is Dead, their eternal destination is a done deal. After death, no second chances.
I agree. Once we are saved a Purgatory is not necessary. It in fact undermines what Jesus did on the cross.

My toleration of it is limited to those who were never saved, but whose sin is also not full measure. In the OT there are many examples where God held back His wrath until sin was 'full measure'. This is why I agree with Catholic teaching on mortal sins / ners.
 
Loyal Member
From where do you get the notion that the RCC determines how long any person has to be in Purgatory?
It is common knowledge in the RCC that your effectual prayers for those in Purgatory can shorten time spent or in some cases, instantly take many to heaven. Those in Purgatory cannot pray for themselves but they can pray prayers of gratitude for those praying for them.
 
Loyal Member
I thought part of the RCC was that family could Pay the 'church' to help their loved ones spend less time In Purgatory. That That is one way the RCC has become rich and powerful?!

And it Is true that God determines when / how He will 'work' in history / events. Your term "full measure" and mortal / immortal sins. Isn't it really 'us' who catagorizes sins. As in as ax murderer is far worse than taking money from your mother's purse or your Dad' wallet without their permission. One is stealing and the other is killing someone,. Murdering is ending another person's life and stealing is Only taking that which does not belong to 'you' without the owner's permission. But in God's eyes -- isn't 'sin' Sin?!

And what does the term "full measure" refer To -- you mentioned in the Old Testament.
 
Loyal Member
And -- how would anyone know what's being done In purgatory and who is or isn't in there. In any individual's life -- who apart from God -- knows what's in that person's heart. How would Anyone know if / when another person Is praying. Well -- in This life a person can pray outloud and be heard. But when absent from this earth -- who would know what that person is doing? But, when I'm in public -- eating, for instance, I bow my head , close my eyes and offer up a quick thank you for my meal. No one except myself and God / Holy Spirit / has the knowledge of what I'm 'saying' in my prayer. Well -- Jesus Christ is our mediator.
 
Loyal Member
I thought part of the RCC was that family could Pay the 'church' to help their loved ones spend less time In Purgatory. That That is one way the RCC has become rich and powerful?!
A couple years back I studied the cash flow from pennance's paid. Forgot most of my facts and figures. But I do recall this being a complete fallacy. The church did not gain a lot from penance's. I would think the same findings can be expected for this.

And it Is true that God determines when / how He will 'work' in history / events. Your term "full measure" and mortal / immortal sins. Isn't it really 'us' who catagorizes sins. As in as ax murderer is far worse than taking money from your mother's purse or your Dad' wallet without their permission. One is stealing and the other is killing someone,. Murdering is ending another person's life and stealing is Only taking that which does not belong to 'you' without the owner's permission. But in God's eyes -- isn't 'sin' Sin?!
Sin is sin and sin has degrees to it. Teaching Matt 5:28 (adulterous thought = sin) has to be accompanied with a teaching on Matt 5:32 (only actual adultery is grounds for divorce).

Sin 'full measure' has nothing to do with categorizing sins. It is simply that point in time where God makes the decision to send someone to hell / concludes that there is no longer any hope left for an individual.

Degrees of sins point to it. As Jesus says 'you are known by your fruits'. A logical mind should conclude that someone continuing in a depth of evil be closer to sin full measure over someone battling only with a lessor sin. Of course only God can judge depths of intent, as Jer 17:9-10 makes clear. But this does not mean we are completely useless. Paul says we can judge properly in 1 Cor 6:1-9 and Gen 3:22 makes it clear that on the subject of understanding what is right and wrong, we are on God and the angels level. Meaning, if God ordain in the OT that a fitting punishment for murder be being stoned to death, we too should agree. The only reason it is not enforced now is due to a window for repentance as God has made clear to all what He hates. In the OT that murderer could repent and go to heaven, but would not escape the stoning.

And what does the term "full measure" refer To -- you mentioned in the Old Testament.
It refers to sin.

Examples would be all the occasions God empowered the Jews to annihilate their enemies. Those times God annihilated the wicked.

Amorites. They were very evil. God made it clear that the Jews would possess their land because of their wickedness in Deut 9:5. But we see in Gen 15:16, that it could only occur when their wickedness was full measure. Gen 15:16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.

Sodom. Full measure when only one family was righteous. Gen 18:20 Then the Lord said, The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous'.

A depth of evil can also speed up that 'full measure'. As we see with those who worshipped the golden calf. They were not annihilated because they thought about worshipping the golden calf. Or because they were bickering with one another. God saw the depth of wickedness their hearts sunk to in deciding to worship the golden calf.
 
Moderator
Staff member
And -- how would anyone know what's being done In purgatory and who is or isn't in there. In any individual's life -- who apart from God -- knows what's in that person's heart.
Right on point with the concept of Purgatory and how the concept of indulgences also falls short.
 
New Member
The Roman Catholic Church believe that it is possible to influence how long a person stays in Purgatory, but you have still not shown that they believe they can determine how long that is.
 
Loyal Member
Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Once you are dead... there is no "oh, I changed my mind after-all".
If your name isn't in the Book of Life when you die, it never will be again.
 
Loyal Member
Maybe all these belief systems need to look at God's Word and not add their own spin on it.

If I'm not mistaken -- in the RCC -- aren't the church fathers held in high esteme? Having said That -- probably Every belief system have their highly estemed leaders. But they should Not be put on the same level as God's Word.

Really die-hard preaching isn't heard much these days. But - that's part of the 'end time's. Lots of people simply like to hear a 'good' sermon and go on their way -- no real concern about 'eternity' or who might or might Not be a believer.
 
New Member
The reason for that is the Catholic and Orthodox churches take the institution of the church itself to be divinely ordained, which is why they acknowledge the canon their church decides on. They avoid the problem Protestant Christianity has in explaining why the New Testament should be considered scripture.
 
New Member
You know how Moses intervened for the people of Egypt many times “convincing God to not kill them?” Or when Jesus wanted to come down and sacrifice himself for all of humanity? I want to intervene for one person in hell and take their place so that they can be in heaven for what Jesus did for me and throw my gift away to someone in hell and take their place. Someone is probably going to say “do not throw your treasures to the swine” like Jesus said. Everyone looks out for their own salvation. What if it’s possible? Could we? How can i be sure that i can pray to be sent to hell in the place of one person in hell. With the way God takes “intervening.” Would I be able to save someone? Am I that valuable to God? Just like his love for Moses when Moses said not to kill those people that were worshiping that golden calf? I want to sacrifice my salvation for someone in hell and it doesn’t matter who. Is this possible?
God will not accept your petition for this one reason.
You love this person in hell more than you love God.

That is a sin.
 
Loyal Member
Jesus Christ is / has been / the Only One qualified to take anyone's place on the cross.

YOU are Not the Son of God -- that was His purpose in coming into this world.

Scripture tells 'us' to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself. So -- Love God First. Pray for those here on earth -- once death takes place -- a person is in eternity -- no one takes their place. Any more than anyone could take Your place. Just doesn't work that way.
 
Loyal Member
God will not accept your petition for this one reason.
You love this person in hell more than you love God.
That is a sin.
Their intention is good. They not really grasping or guilty of what you are proposing.

We should all want to intervene / sacrifice our spot for those in hell. This is Christianity 101.
 

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