Member
Very well. This may take me a little while. I will start with verse 26-40. If you want the rest of it I can do that for you as well.
Why God Commanded Women to be Silent in Church?
Member
Order in the Assembly. 26-40
Disorder in the assembly was partly due to the abuse of the gifts Paul has previously discussed. I say partly because there were also other factors involved.
“What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. For all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints”
“The women are to keep silent in the churches (Which Churches? All the churches. Not just the one at Corinth. Why?); for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.”
This is without doubt one of the most despised texts of scripture in all of holy writ, along with its companion text 1Timothy 2:11-15 which says...
“A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.”
The context is order in the assembly. This was a problem Paul addressed to both men and women. Some of the men were out of order as well. This restriction of silence however was exclusively for the women because of an already established principle of ordered relationship. “Man was formed first and then the woman.” The silence of women in the assembly was simply one of propriety which was not just for the Church at Corinth but for “ALL the Churches.” Order in the assembly was resultant, not causal. To go even further, Paul says that the women were to observe the same level of propriety in the assembly of the Church that had been commanded under the Law. Notice, Paul does not say that the Law commanded women to be silent in the Church. What he says is that the Law commanded the women to be in submission.. Remaining silent in the assembly is merely a reflection of that submission.
In verses 26 regarding the speaking in tongues, revelation, psalms, and interpretation, Paul address the men saying, “each one,” nom, masc, sing – he is speaking to the men. In verse 27 he says, “if anyone,” this too is nom, masc, sing. This is then reinforced in verse 28 by “let him be silent...let him speak to himself.” All of this is in regard to the one who has “a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.” In verse 29-33 Paul then address the issue of prophesying and in verses 33 and 34 commands the women to keep silent in this as well and not to speak because it is improper for them to do so. Paul ends all of this by saying, “these things are the Lord's commandment.”
The occasion or condition is if the whole church assembles together. The anyone of verse 27 is qualified by the he of verse 28 and has a limited application. This instruction is given to all the churches of the saints. In the context of the prophesying and tongues, the women are to keep silent and are not permitted to speak. Their subjection is to be self-imposed – they are to subject themselves. This is active, not passive they are to be self-subjecting, not having to be forced to be in subjection. Clarification for whatever questions they may have was to be addressed at home. Why? Because it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Disorder in the assembly was partly due to the abuse of the gifts Paul has previously discussed. I say partly because there were also other factors involved.
“What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. For all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints”
“The women are to keep silent in the churches (Which Churches? All the churches. Not just the one at Corinth. Why?); for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.”
This is without doubt one of the most despised texts of scripture in all of holy writ, along with its companion text 1Timothy 2:11-15 which says...
“A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.”
The context is order in the assembly. This was a problem Paul addressed to both men and women. Some of the men were out of order as well. This restriction of silence however was exclusively for the women because of an already established principle of ordered relationship. “Man was formed first and then the woman.” The silence of women in the assembly was simply one of propriety which was not just for the Church at Corinth but for “ALL the Churches.” Order in the assembly was resultant, not causal. To go even further, Paul says that the women were to observe the same level of propriety in the assembly of the Church that had been commanded under the Law. Notice, Paul does not say that the Law commanded women to be silent in the Church. What he says is that the Law commanded the women to be in submission.. Remaining silent in the assembly is merely a reflection of that submission.
In verses 26 regarding the speaking in tongues, revelation, psalms, and interpretation, Paul address the men saying, “each one,” nom, masc, sing – he is speaking to the men. In verse 27 he says, “if anyone,” this too is nom, masc, sing. This is then reinforced in verse 28 by “let him be silent...let him speak to himself.” All of this is in regard to the one who has “a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.” In verse 29-33 Paul then address the issue of prophesying and in verses 33 and 34 commands the women to keep silent in this as well and not to speak because it is improper for them to do so. Paul ends all of this by saying, “these things are the Lord's commandment.”
The occasion or condition is if the whole church assembles together. The anyone of verse 27 is qualified by the he of verse 28 and has a limited application. This instruction is given to all the churches of the saints. In the context of the prophesying and tongues, the women are to keep silent and are not permitted to speak. Their subjection is to be self-imposed – they are to subject themselves. This is active, not passive they are to be self-subjecting, not having to be forced to be in subjection. Clarification for whatever questions they may have was to be addressed at home. Why? Because it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Loyal
I wonder when Christians will dump their silly doctrines and read the bible the way its written. There is NO law that says women should keep silent in the church. I wrote earlier that Paul was a very learned man. He KNEW there was no such law... So now you shared your pretext and obviously refuse the Word on the subject. So I ask...If you refuse the Word on the subject, what basis for conversation?
signed Disappointed but not surprised.
Member
I think one of the greatest hinderances to people's acceptance of this chapter and others is because they do not understand the revealed symbolism. Let me explain.
Here are some generalized principles from this Chapter.
Why is the submission of the woman such a big deal? Why does Paul spend so much time stressing this particular issue in so many different places? Contrary to popular belief, these two texts are not the only ones where Paul addresses the submission of women in the Church. If this is such a small matter as some argue, why is so much time dedicated to it?
What we learn about the woman's place in this hierarchy of authority is that she is the ultimate symbol of the Church and its relationship to God. I think most women either overlook this or just simply do not appreciate the significance of the symbolism of the woman in the Church. They do not seem to appreciate the fact that this is a most honored position. The woman's position in relation to man is designed to reflect the relationship of the Church to Christ.
The woman is the feminine in her relationship to man. In just the same way, the Church is always represented as feminine in its relationship to Christ. The woman is the bride just as the Church is the bride. Just as the Church must always assume the position of submission to its head – Christ, so also must the woman always assume the position of subordination to her head – the man; and this is the only position she is permitted to occupy. Man represents God and woman represents the Church. Scripture reveals a number of ways in which this symbolism is reflected such as the covering of the head while praying or prophesying, being silent in the assembly, not assuming authority over the man, not presuming to teach or preach in the assembly, and being excluded from serving as elders. When the woman fails to honor any of this, she violates the symbol.
A. Ephesians 5:22-32 speaks volumes about the symbolism of the woman.
“Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. (This emphasizes the degree to which she is to be in submission.) For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, (This establishes the symbolism.) He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also, the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.” (And this is an unqualified statement that offers NO exceptions.)
“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So, husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. 'For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.' (She is one with man just as the Church is one with Christ.) This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.”
Because the woman occupies such an honored position in her symbolism, she is to be the recipient of tenderness, love, nurturing, and supreme sacrifice; the husband must be willing to die for her. Her husband is to cherish her and regard her as holy, spotless, and blameless. When the man fails to do this, he dishonors the symbolism. This is how Christ honors the Church so, this is how the husband is to honor the wife.
B. 1 Timothy 2:9-15
1. “Likewise, women are to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. (A woman's beauty is not reflected in outward adornment but in her conduct, her behavior.) A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.”
Why is the woman to “quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness,” because of the symbolism. This is how the Church is to receive her instruction from the Lord – quietly, with entire submissiveness. The woman, as the symbol of the Church, must reflect this same attitude.
2. “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. (Would the Church presume to instruct the Lord? Would the Church presume to exorcise authority over the Lord? The willing submissiveness of the woman is how she reflects that symbolism.) For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” Restraint is to be self-imposed just as the Church is to exercise self-restraint in all things.
C. Titus 1:1-5
“Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.” Her behavior must reflect that of the Church of which she stands as a symbol.
D. Corinthians 11:3-12
“But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. Therefore, the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.”
E. 1Corinthians 14:24-36, “The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?”
1. This is a reciprocal relationship. This defines a relationship in which duties and obligations are owed by one individual to another and vice versa. A reciprocal contract is one in which both parties enter into a mutual agreement. Paul presents the hierarchy of authority in this way...
God
|
Christ
|
Man
|
Woman
The hierarchy of authority flows in only one direction with authority flowing from God down to man then from man down to the woman. Authority never flows from the bottom up. Obligation is given upward from man to God. Our obligation to God in this relationship represents a reciprocal of status in which God stipulates the meaning of terms and assigns his own meaning to revealed symbols. This reciprocal is never reversed. Man is never allowed to occupy the status of the woman and the woman is never allowed to occupy the status of the man; this was reflected in the issue of the head covering and the wearing of long hair. It is also reflected in the teaching and remaining silent. Our current society has absolutely destroyed the meaning of the woman as a revealed symbol. Popular rationalism and human experience insist that the assigned symbolism of the woman in the Church is out of date, sexist, archaic, chauvinistic ,and evil. This prohibition is then deemed an unnecessarily burden upon women. It is regarded as unreasonable and irrational. Submission to this divine prohibition involves an act of faith. Violation of it then is necessarily an act of faithlessness. Society has so deteriorated that it will no longer recognize the honored position of the woman. In fact, society has become so depraved that it can no longer tell the difference between a man and a woman and doesn't even know which bathroom to use any more. Yet, they regard themselves as the enlightened ones.
By failing to acknowledge the revealed status by refusing to be in submission, (which Paul says is exemplified here in her remaining silent in the assembly) violates this status. The woman is seen here as the terminus symbol. In this hierarchy of authority, she is the final link of symbolism which in reality, represents the whole. When she refuses to render submission, she steps out of this reciprocal and out of revealed symbolism.
2. This status is stipulated by God who is the ultimate governing authority. God has designated the symbolism in this way...
Male/husband = “image and glory of God.”
Woman/wife = “glory of man.”
The argument from the Law shows the timelessness of this revealed principle. They are to “subject themselves, just as the Law also says.” Revealed principles never change and they are never overturned.
Paul uses the appointed stewardship of the gospel to reinforce the symbolism. “Was it from you (the woman) that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you (again, the woman) only?” If God had entrusted the woman with the gospel, or if she alone had received it, this would have changed all the rules. But, she did not. Paul says that God did not entrust the word of God to the woman, but to the man. This may enrage a lot of people but, that does not change what Paul said. This has absolutely nothing to do with superior intelligence, abilities, talents, or skills. This is in keeping with the divinely established symbolism of both the man and the woman. For the woman to assume the role of the teacher or the preacher in the assembly, she is refusing to acknowledge her assigned place within the revelation continuum. For the man to surrender his place in this revelation continuum to the woman destroys the symbolism of the hierarchy of authority.
F. Resistance
DO NOT INFRINGE UPON THE REVEALED MEANING OF SYMBOLS, not by personal preference nor by social norms. Revelation must be allowed to burden our behavior and this is not governed by society or culture, nor is it controlled by time.
The source of contention in verses 37-38 is not revelation. It is human reason that attempts to assign its own meaning to revealed symbols. “If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is to be ignored.”
Here are some generalized principles from this Chapter.
Why is the submission of the woman such a big deal? Why does Paul spend so much time stressing this particular issue in so many different places? Contrary to popular belief, these two texts are not the only ones where Paul addresses the submission of women in the Church. If this is such a small matter as some argue, why is so much time dedicated to it?
What we learn about the woman's place in this hierarchy of authority is that she is the ultimate symbol of the Church and its relationship to God. I think most women either overlook this or just simply do not appreciate the significance of the symbolism of the woman in the Church. They do not seem to appreciate the fact that this is a most honored position. The woman's position in relation to man is designed to reflect the relationship of the Church to Christ.
The woman is the feminine in her relationship to man. In just the same way, the Church is always represented as feminine in its relationship to Christ. The woman is the bride just as the Church is the bride. Just as the Church must always assume the position of submission to its head – Christ, so also must the woman always assume the position of subordination to her head – the man; and this is the only position she is permitted to occupy. Man represents God and woman represents the Church. Scripture reveals a number of ways in which this symbolism is reflected such as the covering of the head while praying or prophesying, being silent in the assembly, not assuming authority over the man, not presuming to teach or preach in the assembly, and being excluded from serving as elders. When the woman fails to honor any of this, she violates the symbol.
A. Ephesians 5:22-32 speaks volumes about the symbolism of the woman.
“Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. (This emphasizes the degree to which she is to be in submission.) For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, (This establishes the symbolism.) He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also, the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.” (And this is an unqualified statement that offers NO exceptions.)
“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So, husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. 'For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.' (She is one with man just as the Church is one with Christ.) This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.”
Because the woman occupies such an honored position in her symbolism, she is to be the recipient of tenderness, love, nurturing, and supreme sacrifice; the husband must be willing to die for her. Her husband is to cherish her and regard her as holy, spotless, and blameless. When the man fails to do this, he dishonors the symbolism. This is how Christ honors the Church so, this is how the husband is to honor the wife.
B. 1 Timothy 2:9-15
1. “Likewise, women are to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. (A woman's beauty is not reflected in outward adornment but in her conduct, her behavior.) A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.”
Why is the woman to “quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness,” because of the symbolism. This is how the Church is to receive her instruction from the Lord – quietly, with entire submissiveness. The woman, as the symbol of the Church, must reflect this same attitude.
2. “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. (Would the Church presume to instruct the Lord? Would the Church presume to exorcise authority over the Lord? The willing submissiveness of the woman is how she reflects that symbolism.) For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” Restraint is to be self-imposed just as the Church is to exercise self-restraint in all things.
C. Titus 1:1-5
“Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.” Her behavior must reflect that of the Church of which she stands as a symbol.
D. Corinthians 11:3-12
“But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. Therefore, the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.”
E. 1Corinthians 14:24-36, “The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?”
1. This is a reciprocal relationship. This defines a relationship in which duties and obligations are owed by one individual to another and vice versa. A reciprocal contract is one in which both parties enter into a mutual agreement. Paul presents the hierarchy of authority in this way...
God
|
Christ
|
Man
|
Woman
The hierarchy of authority flows in only one direction with authority flowing from God down to man then from man down to the woman. Authority never flows from the bottom up. Obligation is given upward from man to God. Our obligation to God in this relationship represents a reciprocal of status in which God stipulates the meaning of terms and assigns his own meaning to revealed symbols. This reciprocal is never reversed. Man is never allowed to occupy the status of the woman and the woman is never allowed to occupy the status of the man; this was reflected in the issue of the head covering and the wearing of long hair. It is also reflected in the teaching and remaining silent. Our current society has absolutely destroyed the meaning of the woman as a revealed symbol. Popular rationalism and human experience insist that the assigned symbolism of the woman in the Church is out of date, sexist, archaic, chauvinistic ,and evil. This prohibition is then deemed an unnecessarily burden upon women. It is regarded as unreasonable and irrational. Submission to this divine prohibition involves an act of faith. Violation of it then is necessarily an act of faithlessness. Society has so deteriorated that it will no longer recognize the honored position of the woman. In fact, society has become so depraved that it can no longer tell the difference between a man and a woman and doesn't even know which bathroom to use any more. Yet, they regard themselves as the enlightened ones.
By failing to acknowledge the revealed status by refusing to be in submission, (which Paul says is exemplified here in her remaining silent in the assembly) violates this status. The woman is seen here as the terminus symbol. In this hierarchy of authority, she is the final link of symbolism which in reality, represents the whole. When she refuses to render submission, she steps out of this reciprocal and out of revealed symbolism.
2. This status is stipulated by God who is the ultimate governing authority. God has designated the symbolism in this way...
Male/husband = “image and glory of God.”
Woman/wife = “glory of man.”
The argument from the Law shows the timelessness of this revealed principle. They are to “subject themselves, just as the Law also says.” Revealed principles never change and they are never overturned.
Paul uses the appointed stewardship of the gospel to reinforce the symbolism. “Was it from you (the woman) that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you (again, the woman) only?” If God had entrusted the woman with the gospel, or if she alone had received it, this would have changed all the rules. But, she did not. Paul says that God did not entrust the word of God to the woman, but to the man. This may enrage a lot of people but, that does not change what Paul said. This has absolutely nothing to do with superior intelligence, abilities, talents, or skills. This is in keeping with the divinely established symbolism of both the man and the woman. For the woman to assume the role of the teacher or the preacher in the assembly, she is refusing to acknowledge her assigned place within the revelation continuum. For the man to surrender his place in this revelation continuum to the woman destroys the symbolism of the hierarchy of authority.
F. Resistance
DO NOT INFRINGE UPON THE REVEALED MEANING OF SYMBOLS, not by personal preference nor by social norms. Revelation must be allowed to burden our behavior and this is not governed by society or culture, nor is it controlled by time.
The source of contention in verses 37-38 is not revelation. It is human reason that attempts to assign its own meaning to revealed symbols. “If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is to be ignored.”
Member
Did you not even read what I posted? You are correct. Paul did not say that the Law said the women were to keep silent in the assembly. What he said was that the women were to be in subjection "just as the Law also says." His application is that for the woman to remain silent is a reflection of that submission.
Loyal
Submission is not subservience....Submission is "ok I'll do it your way" Or "Ok.. You make the decision and I'll back you." Not your churchiantiy thingy that the woman is the slave of the man. "Yes my lord. Whatever you say."
Member
And what did the Lord command the woman to do in the assembly?
Loyal
How many women did the Lord set up as preachers, prophets, ministers?
Member
There is no record in scripture of women preaching, teaching, or prophesying in the assembly.
Loyal
Anna the prophetess lived in the temple...Where do you think she prophesied. In the outhouse?
Member
We are talking about the Church and you are referring to an OT prophetess. Yes, Anna was a prophetess. Do not confuse the role of a prophet with that of a Levitical priest. It was the priest who preformed ALL of the functions of worship. Under the Law, there were restrictions where women could be in the temple and no women ever functioned in roles of worship in the OT. Under the Law, when the whole assembly came together for worship, it is my understanding that the women were not allowed beyond the courtyard of the women.
Loyal
Well...here are a few women that Paul esteemed highly as ministers and pastors....Andronicus and Junia were “outstanding among the apostles
And it will be in the last days,” says God, “that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy; your youth will see visions and your seniors will dream dreams. Even on both my male servants [ministers] and on my female servants [ministers], in those days, I will pour out my Spirit and they will prophesy. Acts 2:17-18.
In Acts 21:9 we are told that Philip had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.
Third on the Ephesians 4:11 list are the evangelists. Evangelists were men and women who preached the gospel of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.[9] Euodia and Syntyche of Philippi were coworkers of Paul.[10] Paul wrote that these women “have struggled together with me in the ministry of the gospel
Another female minister esteemed by Paul was Phoebe. In Romans 16:1-2 Paul described Phoebe as both a diakonos and a prostatis. The term diakonos is typically used by Paul to refer to minister or agent with a sacred commission; however, in this one instance, where it is referring to a woman, the King James Version and some other English translations have unjustly translated diakonos as “servant.”[12] Phoebe was a minister or deacon, and a leader or patron, in the church at Cenchreae. Sadly, this fact is rarely acknowledged in most older English translations of Romans 16:1-2.
The term diakonos is typically used by Paul to refer to minister or agent with a sacred commission; however, in this one instance, where it is referring to a woman, the King James Version and some other English translations have unjustly translated diakonos as “servant. Phoebe was a minister or deacon, and a leader or patron, in the church at Cenchreae. Sadly, this fact is rarely acknowledged in most older English translations of Romans 16:1-2. In the more reliable, earlier Greek manuscripts, Priscilla’s name appears first in four of the six mentions of this couple in the New Testament.[15] This may denote that Priscilla’s ministry was more prominent than her husband’s. It may also indicate that she had a higher social status than Aquila.[16] “It is well known that the early church attracted an unusual number of high status women . . .”[17] Some of these women, who lived in relatively spacious homes, hosted a congregation that met in their home.[18] As a prominent member of the congregation, the host would have functioned as a leader employing a ministry gift, perhaps the pastor-teacher gift. Priscilla and Aquila were active in ministry and hosted a church in their home at Ephesus (1 Cor. 16:19) and later at Rome (Rom 16:3-5) where they ministered as pastor-teachers.
I guess that would make Paul a major hypocrite for saying that women should shut up in church. Or you have it all wrong.
Loyal
Gentlemen -- as a woman -- from My understanding, there were women in the congregation who were loudmouths. They were interrupting with questions, comments. So -- as to Not be acting in that way during a service, to Please be quiet during a service and ask your husband or pastor After the service. That Everyone needed to be quiet during a service in order to hear, learn from what the elder or bishop or leader of that group had to share with everyone.
Things needed to be done decently and in order as to not encourage distractions / problems.
Things needed to be done decently and in order as to not encourage distractions / problems.
Loyal
Not denying there was that too. LOL It happens in today's churches.
Member
Let me save you some trouble. Here are some examples that many offer to support women serving as preachers or other leaders in the church.
1. Deborah
Deborah was also a prophetess as well as a Judge. The appointment of any judge was nothing more than a judicial appointment not a priestly one. You see Deborah judging Israel for perhaps as long as 40 years but, what you do NOT see Deborah doing is directing worship in the temple or officiating at the altar. Deborah was not chosen to lead Israel in worship. She was chosen merely as a judicial leader and was still bound by the same prohibitions as the other Jewish women under the Law. She was not chosen to serve in ANY priestly function. As a woman, she would not have even been allowed beyond the courtyard of the women. God did not violate his own law by appointing Deborah as a judge. There is absolutely no correlation between Deborah and the divine prohibition of 1Cor 14 or 1Tim 2.
2. Anna, Luke 2:36
Anna was a prophetess whom Luke tells us worship by prayer and fasting continually in the temple. There is no indication in the text that she ever functioned in the temple in any official capacity. Do not confuse the role of a prophet with that of a Levitical priest. It was the priest who performed ALL of the functions of worship. Under the Law, there were restrictions where women could be in the temple and no women ever functioned in roles of leadership in temple under the Law. Under the Law, when the whole assembly came together for worship, it is my understanding that the women were not allowed beyond the courtyard of the women.
3. What about Phoebe in Rom. 16:1-2.
Paul mentions the ministry of Phoebe. Phoebe is said to be a διάκονον – servant, but we are not told in what specific capacity or function she served. To make the quantum leap and say that this means she was a preacher, or an elder, or a teacher is completely unwarranted. Phoebe was called a deaconess but, we are given no explicit information regarding what service she rendered beyond Paul's affirmation that, “she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.” Although, there is I think, a clue offered by Paul's use of the word προστάτις. The word is a feminine noun that properly refers to a woman who is set over as a guardian, a caregiver, or a supporter. She is one who ASSISTS others by aiding or supporting them with her resources. So, Phoebe's function then as a διάκονον – a servant was to support Paul and others with her resources. This defines her as a διάκονον. It says nothing about her functioning as either a teacher or a preacher.
In 1Timothy 2, Paul outlines the qualifications for those who are to be selected by the elders as servants by specific appointment. Now, anyone who serves in ANY capacity the needs of the Church or one within the Church is called a deacon or a deaconess and is such NOT BY specific appointment to an assigned duty. This is Phoebe. A deacon is NOT the same function as a preacher. Ecumenicalism has abused these terms in English to the extent that we use them synonymously and unjustifiably so. Scripture does not use these terms in such a way.
4. Junia in Romans 16:7
Some attempt to suggest based on this verse tat Junia was a female apostle. Romans 16:7 does not refer to Ἰουνίαν as either an apostle nor a preacher. It refers to her simply as some kindsman of Paul and a fellow-prisoner who was known by the apostles.
There are many women who are mentioned as "ministers," but this does not mean they occupied any type of leadership role. Many have adopted a singular definition for the word minister in the church and this is not how it is represented in scripture. They ministered to the needs of many in the Church in a variety of ways. This does not mean they served in the role of a preacher or an elder. Nowhere can we find in scripture were any woman occupied a role of leadership in the Church. What we can find is that they are forbidden to occupy such roles.
5. Priscilla and Aquila,
Acts 18:26, “But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.”
Romans 16:3-5, “Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles; also greet the church that is in their house.”
What does this tell us about Priscilla? It tells us that she and her husband together taught Apollos the word of God more perfectly and that they offered their home as a place for the Church to meet. There is nothing in scripture that prohibits a woman from teaching a man is a private setting. Here is just such an example. The prohibition is that women are forbidden to speak or teach IN THE ASSEMBLY!
Loyal
Whatever you choose to believe is your business, my friend. I don't know why you won't read the Word the way it's written. The KJV translates Strong's G4904 in the following manner: fellowlabourer (4x), helper (3x), fellowhelper (2x), fellowworkers (1x), workfellow (1x), labourer together with (1x), companion in labour (1x). They're doing the same work as Paul!! Wake up my friend. Get rid of churchianity doctrines and learn the truth of the Word
Member
Here is how it is written
“The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, ….for it is improper for a woman to speak in church."
Women who choose to occupy positions of instruction and authority in the Church do so not because of what this scripture says, but in spite of it.
Loyal
Well you just keep on taking single verses and making doctrines out of them. I'm tired of arguing with people who won't read.
Loyal
Bendito -- I'm really sorry that you've had the bad experiences churches. Lots of churches are loving and supportive. And there Are guidelines in New Testament For those who want to be elders, bishops, in a church. And mostly they apply to deacons, too. One is being the husband of one wife. And that disqualifies women from preaching to a mixed audience. And the people in leadership are Not to put a woman in the position of possibly usurping authority over a man in a mixed adult Sunday School class. It's much better for a Man to be in charge/ leading a mixed adult class. Now there Are women who can do a great job in leading a mixed adult group.
And I also have a problem with Baptist Doctrine when it's Really Bible Doctrine. We DO need to read God's Word AS God's Word rather than the Presby, Lutheran, etc. doctrine.
On the T.V. -- actually it was Face Book. There were several men being baptized at an Army base -- it was make-shift -- a tank lined with something and the guys were being baptized by immersion. It was wonderful to see.
And, we Are told in God's Word to Not forsake the assembling of ourselves together on a regular basis. We Need fellowship And accountability. And there Are some areas where a good church is Hard to find. And, yes, people Can be cruel. But we Also need a forgiving spirit -- extending grace to others.
Christianity -- that which Jesus Christ has already done for 'us' on the cross and bodily rising from the dead on the 3rd day. Religions tend to be what people do to try to reach God. Usually some kind of good works.
Christianity is sharing the Good news of the Gospel unto salvation. Being a follower of Jesus Christ. What would Jesus do in any particular circumstance.
And I also have a problem with Baptist Doctrine when it's Really Bible Doctrine. We DO need to read God's Word AS God's Word rather than the Presby, Lutheran, etc. doctrine.
On the T.V. -- actually it was Face Book. There were several men being baptized at an Army base -- it was make-shift -- a tank lined with something and the guys were being baptized by immersion. It was wonderful to see.
And, we Are told in God's Word to Not forsake the assembling of ourselves together on a regular basis. We Need fellowship And accountability. And there Are some areas where a good church is Hard to find. And, yes, people Can be cruel. But we Also need a forgiving spirit -- extending grace to others.
Christianity -- that which Jesus Christ has already done for 'us' on the cross and bodily rising from the dead on the 3rd day. Religions tend to be what people do to try to reach God. Usually some kind of good works.
Christianity is sharing the Good news of the Gospel unto salvation. Being a follower of Jesus Christ. What would Jesus do in any particular circumstance.