The Thief on the Cross
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Neither Jesus nor the man with him went to heaven; they went to paradise which, in their case, was down rather than up. (Matt 12:40, John 20:17)
In addition, the man was promised paradise while Jesus was alive, which makes a really big difference because according to Heb 9:16-17, Christianity wasn't launched until Christ passed away.
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Member
Why would one assume that he was not baptized?
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Loyal
It is commonly believed amongst quite a few denominations that "paradise" or "Abaraham's Bosom" was a temporary place. Not like purgatory.
(Your final destiny is already set, you can't change it after you die).
Sheol had Hades on one side, and Paradise on the other side of a chasm. Before Jesus "died" everyone went to Sheol. Either the "good" side or the "bad" side.
After Jesus "died", a lot of things changed. he descended into the lower parts of the earth and led the captives free.
He wasn't able to do this before He sprinkled His blood on the mercy seat in heaven.
This is also sen in C.S. Lewis Chronicles of Narnia when Aswan frees the prisoners in the Ice Queens castle.
The thought is... now when you die, you no longer go to Paradise, but rather to heaven. There are quite a few people who believe in "soul sleep".
They believe you don't go to heaven immediately, but are resurrected "on the last day".
It is thought the saints of the old testament all went here. (as well as Lazarus and the rich man).
But none of them were baptized either. (Like the thief on the cross).
(Your final destiny is already set, you can't change it after you die).
Sheol had Hades on one side, and Paradise on the other side of a chasm. Before Jesus "died" everyone went to Sheol. Either the "good" side or the "bad" side.
After Jesus "died", a lot of things changed. he descended into the lower parts of the earth and led the captives free.
He wasn't able to do this before He sprinkled His blood on the mercy seat in heaven.
This is also sen in C.S. Lewis Chronicles of Narnia when Aswan frees the prisoners in the Ice Queens castle.
The thought is... now when you die, you no longer go to Paradise, but rather to heaven. There are quite a few people who believe in "soul sleep".
They believe you don't go to heaven immediately, but are resurrected "on the last day".
It is thought the saints of the old testament all went here. (as well as Lazarus and the rich man).
But none of them were baptized either. (Like the thief on the cross).
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The Pacific Crest Trail (a.k.a. PCT) traverses the north/south length of three states-- California, Oregon, and Washington. No matter where trekkers might be located on the trail at any given moment-- whether Kennedy Meadows California or Cascade Locks Oregon --they're all on the very same PCT.
I believe Paradise is sort of like that. There's a section of it in the netherworld (Luke 16:19-31) another in a celestial region that Paul labeled the third heaven (2Cor 12:2-4) and yet another is located with God up in very heaven itself. (Rev 2:7)
Paradise is sort of like McDonalds too. There is only one McDonalds Corporation but many franchises. No matter which franchise you happen to dine in, it's all the same McDonalds Corporation whether in the USA, China, Australia, Guam, or Puerto Rico.
Incidentally; the Watchtower Society's misunderstanding of paradise is what caused them to revise Luke 23:43 in their Bible to read like this:
"And he said to him: "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."
Locating the comma after "today" instead of before it, makes a really big difference.
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Actually the promise made by Jesus on the Cross to the thief was valid, because He died before they did.
Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. John 19:32-33
The purpose for breaking of the legs was to ensure any who were still alive would die quickly. The death on the Cross was actually a cruel long one that was caused by asphyxiation. How long depended upon the strength of the individual. So when the soldiers broke the legs of the thieves it hastened their death. Breaking the legs would prevent the person from lifting themselves up to take away the weight off their diaphragm pressing upon their lungs which would allow them to breath. Unnecessary for Jesus since He was already dead. Thus fulfilling prophecy "For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "Not [one] of His bones shall be broken." John 19:36
I remember a chart I had found years ago in a book my son had, which you might find interesting. Hopefully, it will load up as an attachment.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
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Loyal
If you truly think about it.
The New Covenant could not go into effect until after the cross.
Blessings
Loyal
Heavenlies
1st Heaven is this 3D realm where we dwell.
2nd Heaven is where satan has his kingdom set up and where the big spiritual battles take place.
3rd Heaven is where the Kingdom of God Is Established
Paradise is where those who Loved God Went before the Cross.
The Great Witnesses that scripture talks about was the saints of old and they were ushered into Heaven when Jesus returned.
All that had died before the Cross did Hear and See Christ Preached.
Those who accepted Christ moved on.
New Testament or New Covenant or the way things are now after the cross says to be absent of this body is to be present with Christ.
Scripture also says Christ sits on the Right side of God the Father and God is not sitting in paradise.
Hell is real and full this day. It will be thrown into the lake of fire where not only will those without Christ suffer for eternity but satan and all his spiritual bunch Will Then Suffer for eternity as well.
Only man suffers in hell at this time.
Christ on the Cross has changed everything.
Take Caution to what you quote as new Covenant Words of Jesus even if they are in Red.
Jesus walked as a Prophet speaking from the old covenant or laws and prophecy. He Also spoke and Taught of Things To Come AFTER the Cross.
Blessings in Christ
Wired
Loyal
I would also like to add
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
We actually fight 3
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
If we do our part and stand against the 3 listed. .....Jesus takes care of
spiritual wickedness in high places.
I won't go on about how this is done or our part which ultimately brings us to Faith and thus bringing up the little faith big faith argument where most of us Christians have not truly understood what Jesus meant.
It's an eye opener and yet so simple and all through out scripture the explanation is written.
I do not want to derail this thread but just wanted to add this.
Blessings in Christian
Wired
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
We actually fight 3
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
If we do our part and stand against the 3 listed. .....Jesus takes care of
spiritual wickedness in high places.
I won't go on about how this is done or our part which ultimately brings us to Faith and thus bringing up the little faith big faith argument where most of us Christians have not truly understood what Jesus meant.
It's an eye opener and yet so simple and all through out scripture the explanation is written.
I do not want to derail this thread but just wanted to add this.
Blessings in Christian
Wired
Member
Off-topic, out of the blue comments muddy the waters; and whether meant to or not, often end up diverting people away from a thread's primary subject. Off-topic comments are distracting clutter, and they're annoying.
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Loyal
I agree with just about everything you wrote here, but...
I don't know about that.
Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
I don't know about that.
Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Loyal
Going farther....Jesus went to paradise, where He preached to the captives there. Yes captives...they were confined there until....after He preached to them, He led them out of there into Heaven...and then Hell enlarged her bowels.
Loyal
OH! Please don't liken Rotten Ronnies to Paradise. You don't want to scare me off!
Loyal
It is possible that this man could have been baptized by John the baptist, or one of Jesus's disciples, and just got caught up into being condemned over some stupid things because of the flesh that he was a slave to.
He knew Jesus was Lord so he had to have heard the Word from somewhere that would give him faith to believe.
Loyal
Greetings,
Think about it. Who are the demons who work under satans commands?
Are these servants alive and fighting against man?
Until after satan is chained for a thousand years then let out to only go right after man again is he and hell thrown into the pit of fire where ALL occupants will suffer greatly.
Those in hell now (men are being tormented by workers of satan).
The evil spirits are still alive and doing what they do....torment.
Blessings
Wired
Loyal
Greetings,
I was acting out of kindness as in letting others know I was aware that this might seem as if I am going off topic but simply wanted to add it because it fit with my previous post which the edit time had run out.
So I thank you for your kind and loving reply and pray you have a very wonderfully blessed day.
Member
I think that is very possible. In Mark 1:5 we are told that, 'all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins." It would seem that there is a greater possibility that he was baptized than not. I just think it is interesting that most people jump to the assumption that he was not and then attempt to build a soteriological argument around that assumption.