An hour then your thoughts

[Sue D.]

what do you think the bible is?

The Bible is God's Word to mankind. It's Meant for everyone to read.

A diary is a person writing their personal thoughts down -- not meant for anyone else to read.

 

[Sue D.]

@ King J -- Back in #270 you've shared that "salvation is as simple as us finding a bride who wants to be with us."

Would you please explain that? Please.

 

[Sue D.]

What happened to This subject?

 

[KingJ]

@King J. -- I don't see any conflict.

God created us and knows everything..... and true free will exists. You don't see the conflict?

I want to be crystal clear. I do agree that their is true free will. Curtis has stated this. You have not yet that I have read, but you like his posts so you must agree with him on it. We are all on the same page there. It is as you said, a different view on how we arrive at that conclusion. That is all I am asking you two to explain. I am still waiting for a coherent explanation. You mock mine, but provide none. Your view is currently at ''God works in mysterious ways....sometimes good ....sometimes evil...all so mysterious....we have no clue''.

And, yes, God's Word Can be confusing. To Us -- because we're Human. God knows exactly what is going on - everywhere - with everyone of us. His master plan is in 'process'.

I don't like this statement from you. It is not true. God has gone to the ends of the earth to empower / enable us to grasp His character. His character throughout His ''master plan''.

You literally undo all this effort when you miss-represent Him as you do to the unsaved. You have made very Calvinistic statements. These statements paint a picture of a partial God to every working brain on the planet.

 

[KingJ]

what do you think the bible is?

Well I know it is not my diary.

 

[KingJ]

Talking to you is just like what Jesus said about many in the crowds he spoke to., "These people have eyes, but that do not see, they have ears but they don't hear, lest at any time they might see with their eyes, hear with there ears, and understand with their heart....."

Ok, so if you understand it differently to me, please explain it.

Peter grasped God is impartial in Acts 10:34. He can explain it. I have grasped God is impartial, I can explain it. You have grasped God is impartial. You cannot explain it....?

Is your response to an enquiring mind going to be ''God works in mysterious ways'.

He has given you eyes, ears, a working brain, the Holy Spirit and a bible, yet you cannot put together any coherent defense for God's impartiality? If we were discussing His origin, you can quote the above verse to me. But this is His character. He has been crystal clear to us / a complete open book to us. There is absolutely nothing mysterious about where the evidence is pointing to!. I hate all this beating around the bush. An applicable verse is Rev 12:9 Confusion is of the devil.

 

[Sue D.]

God created us and knows everything..... and true free will exists. You don't see the conflict?

I want to be crystal clear. I do agree that their is true free will. Curtis has stated this. You have not yet that I have read, but you like his posts so you must agree with him on it. We are all on the same page there. It is as you said, a different view on how we arrive at that conclusion. That is all I am asking you two to explain. I am still waiting for a coherent explanation. You mock mine, but provide none. Your view is currently at ''God works in mysterious ways....sometimes good ....sometimes evil...all so mysterious....we have no clue''.

I don't like this statement from you. It is not true. God has gone to the ends of the earth to empower / enable us to grasp His character. His character throughout His ''master plan''.

You literally undo all this effort when you miss-represent Him as you do to the unsaved. You have made very Calvinistic statements. These statements paint a picture of a partial God to every working brain on the planet.

@King J. --- the only 'problem' is that you don't like most of our responses back to you. You aren't satisfied with our 'coherent explanations'.

We learn about God's character through His Word.

And, I repeat -- we are human beings -- God is God Almighty. His ways are not our ways and our ways are not His ways. We are Not on equal basis with God.

Let's get to a couple of basics that you have not responded back to. One 'basic' is that we are not equal to God and God is not equal to mankind. Do you agree with that?

Now -- another basic -- that of salvation. Please define 'salvation'.

Some of your comments I actually agree with. "His character through His 'master plan'.

Yes, God Does have a master plan for this world.

Your latest 'thing' is about God's impartiality. Acts 10:34 -- very true. The passage continues on to say that "you know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. ....... vs 43 "All the prophets testify about Him, that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His Name."

John 3:16 "For God So Loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son that Who So Ever believes in Him will Not perish but have everlasting life." Does That sound like partiality on God's part? I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Does "we" sound like partiality ?

The Gospel was first given to the Children of Israel -- the Jews. Salvation was extended to the Gentiles when the Jews rejected Him as their promised Messiah. And God Knew from the beginning that salvation would be made available to All. And He also knows that there are lots of people who Won't accept His plan for their salvation. That is part of His all-knowledge -- we don't have that information. No one alive knows who every single person is who will accept God's plan for salvation.

( There are times when you are rude and it's Not appreciated.)

I would like to know what your religious back ground is.

 

[KingJ]

@King J. --- the only 'problem' is that you don't like most of our responses back to you. You aren't satisfied with our 'coherent explanations'.

I must have missed your explanation. Which post is it in?

We learn about God's character through His Word.

And, I repeat -- we are human beings -- God is God Almighty. His ways are not our ways and our ways are not His ways. We are Not on equal basis with God.

Let's get to a couple of basics that you have not responded back to. One 'basic' is that we are not equal to God and God is not equal to mankind. Do you agree with that?

I have responded to this three times. As Gen 3:22 says, regarding the knowledge of what is good and evil, we are on His level. We can know what is good and what is not good, as He does. Perhaps not always as clear as He does, as we have the flesh. Verses like Jer 17:9-12 speak to Him knowing it all. As in every part of an equation is available to Him. Or as in a He sees all the pieces of a puzzle. If we had to see all the pieces of the puzzle, we (who also hate what is evil) would agree with His decision thereon, as He also hates what is evil. So, saying / making any insinuation as to us being unable to grasp what is good or evil is utter nonsense.

Now on God's partiality vs impartiality, we do have all the pieces of the puzzle. We can make a conclusion. We should be able to with confidence say that He is truly impartial.

Puzzle piece 1 = God is omniscient.
Puzzle piece 2 = There is a hell
Puzzle piece 3 = God is the Creator
Puzzle piece 4 = God is good

Conclusion = There is true free will. God is as good as He is great. He is the extremity of good and Omni's at the same time.

Explanation: Evil exists, but only because God created free will. So it is not correct to say God created evil, even though it exists. We can with confidence state that God would not torture any being, even though He can. Likewise we can state, that if it can be proven that knowing something is evil, He does not know that, even though He can.

Now as I have said to you many times, you advocate Calvinism and your only defense is your statement that you are not one. It is like a Mercedes saying it is a Toyota.

You need to think on the fact that every working brain on this planet will agree that partiality is wicked. That they all be able to grasp statements / puzzle pieces pointing to it as evidence of a wicked God. This is why your incomplete synopsis of God's position on partiality / Him being unable to limit His omniscience to uphold what is good and right, is shortsighted and insinuates a wicked God to every person that hears you or reads what you type. You and Curtis are advocating Calvinism and seem oblivious to this fact.

Now -- another basic -- that of salvation. Please define 'salvation'.

How is this relevant?

Your latest 'thing' is about God's impartiality. Acts 10:34 -- very true. The passage continues on to say that "you know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. ....... vs 43 "All the prophets testify about Him, that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His Name."

John 3:16 "For God So Loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son that Who So Ever believes in Him will Not perish but have everlasting life." Does That sound like partiality on God's part? I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Does "we" sound like partiality ?

No, ''we'' does not sound like partiality at all!!!!!. So glad to hear you say that. Now, please can you deal with that fact. How can true free will exist if God foreknows a babies destination will be hell? You do believe God knows who will be in hell and who won't, right....?

I would like to know what your religious back ground is.

How is this relevant?

 

[Sue D.]

@King J -- first --the Genesis 2:16 - 17 "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying. "of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: but the tree of of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. "

And then God proceeded to make woman so that the man would not be alone and would have a companion comparable to himself.

Go on to chapter 3: enter the serpent - - starts deceiving Eve -- misleading her -- but with just enough truth to make it sound justifiable for Eve to disregard God's commandment and listen to the serpent.

Eve's desire to be wise like God -- knowing both good and evil -- caused her to eat of that fruit -- then she gave some to Adam and he ate also ---- then their eyes were open and they had lost their innocence -- they knew they were naked and ashamed to be around God.

Being LIKE God is Not the same as BEING God. Because God is omniscent -- He / God knows both good and evil.

Do We as human beings give in to the serpent's/ satans' deceptions OR do we obey God.

A lesson -- God told man 1st but instead of the man being the spiritual Leader of Eve -- he gave in to Eve's deception and followed her. And then when Adam was challenged --he blamed 'the woman you gave me". Adam did Not take personal responsibility for his own actions.

When we -- human beings -- male and female get together and produce children together. Our children are Not on equal basis to us. We are parents -- we Can be friends with our kids -- when they are much older. But We are in charge -- we teach them and they are supposed to be learning to obey us as their authority figures in their lives. We Are all human beings -- but parents are NOT on equal basis with their kids. In fact -- Christian parents are Supposed to be teaching our kids God' Word -- His authority in their lives.

And, yes, we Do know both good and evil. But -- we will Also experience death. Just as God said we will. People were meant to live forever. That's why Adam and Eve were driven Out of the garden. So they would NOT find the tree of life and live forever -- because they would have lived and Died in their sins. So - God provided the cross.

You included Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it." The 'who can know it' is meaning that we can't even begin to fathom the depth of our own potential wickedness. So how can we possibly be equal or even Like God. The horrible things that mankind is capable of inflicting on other human beings is unthinkable. And we are Also capable of extremely Good behavior.


Your next question -- is 'how is salvation relevant'. I asked you to please define 'salvation'. What I don't understand is how you could question the relevance / the importance Of salvation.

I'll take a moment to explain it -- and see if you agree. God's Word -- Because of the fall of mankind -- Adam and Eve -- we've lost fellowship with God. They disobeyed Him and so were kicked out of the perfect garden -- away from God's presence. Away from fellowship with Him. Because the wages of sin is physical death -- Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, bu the gift of God is eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrated His love toward us, in that while we were still sinners. Christ died for us.

1 Corinthians 15:1 - 4 "..... the Gospel....by which you are saved.....That Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scripture.... that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day, according to the Scriptures." He was also seen by many people during the 40 days before He ascended back up into the heavens to be with God the Father.

Salvation -- being saved -- but from What? without the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross and His resurrection -- everyone would be doomed to ending up in hell and in the very end -- the lake of fire and brimstone that's being prepared for satan, the false prophet and the beast. Eternal total darkness, knashing of teeth -- the fire that never goes out and people don't burn up in. All of a sudden -- people will realize that God's Word Was Really Truth. And that satan's lies were really lies.
Being saved -- TO what? upon the death of the born-again believer -- he/ she is immediately with Jesus Christ for eternity. The New Jerusalem is being prepared for all born-again believers to be taken down from heaven buy God , Himself. Described in Revelation 21. No more pain, suffering, no evil. Fellowshipping with God once again and all the other born-again believers.

I use the term 'born-again' believers because Lots of people Do believe in the existence of God. They Do believe that Jesus Christ existed. But that He died a martyr. They believe that He was simply another religious teacher of that day.
But they have never accepted the cross of calvery on any particular 'basis. They have never been born Spiritually. They spend their lives being physically alive. A person Does need to realize that They, personally are sinners. Maybe a lie, taking money from their mom's or Dad's purse or wallet -- Without asking First. Or maybe as a teenage guy -- the shades on the neighbor girls/ woman's window isn't closed and so you watch him/ her in their personal , intimate times. That is sin. And if you're doing it from outside - and get caught -- it's Also not legal. But most of all -- its' SIN. Your deserved punishment is spending eternity in hell. UNLESS -- Untill.

Another response to your post 308 -- that God won't torture any being even though He can. Well -- God Is casting people out of His presence for Eternity -- and He Does warn mankind what those conditions will be like. So -- if a person Really Wants to spend eternity in Those conditions -- that is their decision. IF a person chooses to follow God's plan for mankind to stay OUT of their -- His gift of our 'salvation' -- then no one Has to end up there.
So -- you are - in effect - yourself --miss-representing God to anyone who reads that.

 

[amadeus2]

Lucifer in the garden of Eden was the "serpent" not the light bearer. He was already a fallen angel when Adam was tempted.

Indeed whatever he was he was surely included in the "very good" of Gen 1:31.

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:3

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31

 

[amadeus2]

Evil exists, but only because God created free will. So it is not correct to say God created evil, even though it exists...

I agree with your first sentence but what does the following verse mean?

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

For me it means that God created the possibility of everything that exists. In the beginning it was all "very good" [Gen 1:31], but although man was also very good, man was given something no other creature was given, the ability to go against or disobey God. When he used that ability that first time the possibility of evil became a reality.

 

[amadeus2]

I agree with this. But still not sure how you reconcile the above with a belief in God being the creator and knowing all. Don't you see the conflict?

God knows all. God made all. Judas and Pharaoh rebelled of their own. Confusing!

God spoke His Word for mankind once so it was in place when mankind was created. When a man acts or reacts favorably according to the Word God already spoken he receives a blessing according to the Word. When a man acts or reacts unfavorably according to the Word God already spoken he receives a curse according to the Word.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

 

[B-A-C]

man was given something no other creature was given, the ability to go against or disobey God.

It would seem the angels also had this ability.

 

[amadeus2]

It would seem the angels also had this ability.

There is certainly a problem there. Is an angel always a heavenly being rather than a man? The angel/messenger, who is a man, such as John the Baptist, certainly had the ability to disobey God. With a heavenly angel, who is not or never has been a man [possibly Gabriel], it would be more difficult and maybe impossible to show by scripture that he had the ability to go against or disobey God. In any case to simplify that problem, I will restrict my statement to except angelic or heavenly creatures that were not human..

 

[B-A-C]

it would be more difficult and maybe impossible to show by scripture that he had the ability to go against or disobey God.

Messenger sometimes simply means "messenger" whether angelic or other wise. I don't believe John the Baptist is ever called an angel.

In the case of Satan... I don't believe he was ever a man. I don't believe men are angels, and I don't believe angels are men.

Ezek 28:13; “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
Ezek 28:14; “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:15; “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek 28:16; “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.

Apparently there was a "cherub" (angel) that was once "blameless in your ways". Until sin was found in them.
The "covering cherub" that was in the garden of God was "cast out" as profane.
Most scholars believe this passage is about Satan. (an allegory with the "King of Tyre")

Luke 10:18; And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

Rev 12:3; Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.
Rev 12:4; And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

We are told who the dragon here is. This passage is generally taken as Satan took a third of the angels with him, they rebelled with Satan.

Rev 12:9; And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Angels are capable of sinning.

Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[KingJ]

Being LIKE God is Not the same as BEING God. Because God is omniscent -- He / God knows both good and evil.

Sue, I have said, regarding the knowledge of what is good and evil we are like God. We '''know'''. Hence there is no such thing as ''God's idea of good is our idea of bad''. That is the beginning and end of the point I have wanted to make.

Do We as human beings give in to the serpent's/ satans' deceptions OR do we obey God.

...and what is obeying God? God does not want a bride who obeys Him like a slave, just because He happens to be the One in charge. God wants a bride that is after His heart. That, like Him, desires to hate what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9. So, David stating in Psalm 136:1 that ''we give thanks because God is good'' carries a lot of weight to Christian understanding of contentious scriptures.

Christian parents are Supposed to be teaching our kids God' Word -- His authority in their lives.

I agree. But why do you believe this is necessary with your belief? You believe God knows whether a child will go to heaven or not, so why teach them anything?

Then, I don't think you can present a convincing argument to someone who may want to kill their child at birth to ensure they are among the chosen for heaven. I can think of you having two explanations with your belief 1. You tell the parents that they will go to hell for murder. Well they don't mind, they love their children more then themselves. 2. You state that not all children go to heaven. Well your belief just got even sicker. God would send a child to eternal hell?

Salvation -- being saved -- but from What? without the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross and His resurrection -- everyone would be doomed to ending up in hell and in the very end -- the lake of fire and brimstone that's being prepared for satan,

I disagree. God is not a mental case. Why was there a waiting place called Abraham's bosom?

If Jesus never died, there would still be a separation between those who repent and hate sin verse those who don't. The verdict is that people go to the lake of fire / eternal damnation because they love the darkness John 3:19. Not because they were unlucky....not in right religion.....waiting on Jesus.

Jesus reconciles only those who want to be with God, with God. This invitation is given to all, in the hope that all accept / God wills that ALL be saved 1 Tim 2:4.

A person Does need to realize that They, personally are sinners.Maybe a lie, taking money from their mom's or Dad's purse or wallet -- Without asking First. Or maybe as a teenage guy -- the shades on the neighbor girls/ woman's window isn't closed and so you watch him/ her in their personal , intimate times. That is sin. And if you're doing it from outside - and get caught -- it's Also not legal. But most of all -- its' SIN. Your deserved punishment is spending eternity in hell. UNLESS -- Untill

This is not scriptural. As per John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. People choose to do what is wicked, when they know what is right / see the light. They reject the light. They don't reject a religion. They don't make '''mistakes'' of sin. There is no ''oh lucky you, you were in the right religion'.

God is not dumb. A person in the lake of fire will not wonder for eternity as to what they are doing there. They will know. We in heaven, will know.

There is a theme throughout scripture of sin needing to be 'full measure' before God's wrath comes. Jews in the OT were not stoned to death for stealing one piece of candy from a candy store.

 

[B-A-C]

I agree. But why do you believe this is necessary with your belief? You believe God knows whether a child will go to heaven or not, so why teach them anything?

Then, I don't think you can present a convincing argument to someone who may want to kill their child at birth to ensure they are among the chosen for heaven. I can think of you having two explanations with your belief

Perhaps God knows which parents will teach their children, and which ones "choose not to". God doesn't make them make those choices.
He just knows which choices they are going to make. Knowing something is going to happen before it happens, doesn't mean you are the cause of
it happening.

God could stop bad things from happening, but if He did, then none of us would truly have free-will.
It has been argued, without knowing what evil is... none of would really know what righteousness is. Perhaps God allows it, so we will know.

 

[amadeus2]

Messenger sometimes simply means "messenger" whether angelic or other wise. I don't believe John the Baptist is ever called an angel.

In Luke 1:26 the same Greek word translated to angel in English is translated to messenger in English in Matt 11:10.

In the case of Satan... I don't believe he was ever a man. I don't believe men are angels, and I don't believe angels are men.

If it is your belief then must it necessarily be correct? I have seen some as men sent by God and some as special non-human messengers sent by God. What was the translator's preference? What was the translator's personal understanding of the original language he was reading? What is God's message to anyone?

You see the difficulty. Do we follow the lead of some tradition church group or do we receive our answer/conclusion through the lead of the Holy Spirit? Is even study alone enough?


Ezek 28:13; “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
Ezek 28:14; “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:15; “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek 28:16; “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.

Apparently there was a "cherub" (angel) that was once "blameless in your ways". Until sin was found in them.
The "covering cherub" that was in the garden of God was "cast out" as profane.
Most scholars believe this passage is about Satan. (an allegory with the "King of Tyre")[/quote]
I understand that many scholars believe this, but how bound are we to what scholars have determined? Perhaps it was simply the story of the poor example of the King of Tyre with no real satanic reference intended. Who but God would know for certain?

Luke 10:18; And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

And some of us watch as the Evangelist Jimmy Swaggert fell from a heavenly place in God's work to the depths of a pit of sin.

Rev 12:3; Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.
Rev 12:4; And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

We are told who the dragon here is. This passage is generally taken as Satan took a third of the angels with him, they rebelled with Satan.

Rev 12:9; And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Angels are capable of sinning.[/quote]

And Jimmy Swaggert was God's messenger, but he was a man who fell. He was certainly not the only one who has fallen.

Notice that I am not saying definitely that you or the scholars or the traditional beliefs of churches are all in error, yet consider that many of these beliefs/traditions came also from the Catholic Church with the early Reformers who broke away from them. Much of the Catholic belief was discarded early. More was discarded later. Should we presume that all that remains of what the mainstream Protestants churches brought with them out of Catholicism is flawless? Should we simply follow along or should we continue to study and pray and possibility even change our beliefs to something better as led to do so by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Sue D.]

@ King J. -- way back in post # 150 "....God has put us on His level when He gave us our working brains." That was "regarding what is good and evil"

So -- you are in effect saying that you and I and everyone else in this world are on equal level to God. That mankind is on equal level with the Trinity -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.

The FACT is that Adam was given One order from God -- do not eat of this tree -- Eve believed / acted On satan's / the serpent's / lie rather take God at His Word -- IF Eve had trusted God's Word / obeyed God none of the rest of it would have happened. Everything else in that garden was Good for them -- they were free to enjoy Everything Except that One thing.

And, will Again, clarify about being the Bride of Christ. A person Becomes the bride of Christ / the Church / When a person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. And Not Until then. At That time, of salvation, the Holy Spirit immediately comes and indwells each believer. Each believer becomes the Church / Bride of Christ. The marriage supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven.

It has Nothing to do with Jesus Christ 'being good enough' to attract people to Himself.

 

[KingJ]

@ King J. -- way back in post # 150 "....God has put us on His level when He gave us our working brains." That was "regarding what is good and evil"

So -- you are in effect saying that you and I and everyone else in this world are on equal level to God. That mankind is on equal level with the Trinity -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. .

No, I am not. Please re-read.