An hour then your thoughts

[B-A-C]

Rom 10:6; But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),
Rom 10:7; or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”

We are not in heaven, only the heavenly "places".

Lucifer in the garden of Eden was the "serpent" not the light bearer. He was already a fallen angel when Adam was tempted.

Yes Satan is the serpent in Genesis.

Rev 20:2; And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Satan was called the ruler of this world. But it seems he was cast out.

John 12:31; Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

John 14:30; I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;

John 16:11; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

He is also called the prince "of the power of the air". Eph 2:2;

When Jesus was being tempted by Satan, Satan offered him the kingdoms of the world, Satan would not have been able to do this
if those kingdom weren't his. ( Matt 4:8-9; Luke 4:5-7; )

But things changed after Jesus was crucified.

Matt 28:18; And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Eph 1:20; which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21; far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22; And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,

Yet some verses say this isn't complete yet... the battle goes on for dominion.

1 Cor 15:24; then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1 Cor 15:25; For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1 Cor 15:26; The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1 Cor 15:27; For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1 Cor 15:28; When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Eph 6:12; For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places

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Gal 2:19' For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
Gal 2:20; I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

But this isn't a one time thing. You continually make "the choice".

1 Cor 15:31; I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Luke 9:23; And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

We don't lose this choice when we become saved.

2 Cor 5:14; For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

The love of Christ controls us... but is it all the time 100%? You still have freedom of choice.
Even though this love controls you, do you still sin sometimes? Is it the love of God that causes you to sin? No it's your own free-will.

 

[KingJ]

All men are born as vessels of "dishonor". If a man wants to be a vessel of "honor" then he must "depart" from "iniquity"

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

You have a conflicting argument now.

You said you were chosen in Christ before the foundations of the earth. You were chosen. Now you are saying, you are chosen because you purged yourself of evil. I agree with this post, but can't reconcile your conflicting statements.

Did God know you were going to purge evil / follow 2 Tit 2:21? Yes or No? If Yes, you were created a vessel unto honor. If No, you were created a vessel unto honor or dishonor.

 

[Curtis]

Not really. I would think a place called Eden, that is a garden where God resides, be able to be called both.

Why do you say ''garden of God''. The scripture I gave said 'Eden, the garden of God'.

Do you have any other support for them being unrelated?

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

The angels were created before the earth was formed as they were there when God brought the earth into existence. Lucifer was created in Eden the garden of God. Lucifer was NOT created in the garden of Eden. He was known as the serpent not the anointed cherub.

 

[Curtis]

Did God know you were going to purge evil / follow 2 Tit 2:21? Yes or No? If Yes, you were created a vessel unto honor. If No, you were created a vessel unto honor or dishonor.

You greatly error in your thinking. ALL men are born vessels of dishonor. Did God create them this way? He did not!!! Man is born a sinner which makes him a vessel of dishonor. Did God know before the world began that I would accept him as my savior, and then become a vessel of honor? Absolutely yes!!! If the Lord did not know this then salvation would have been impossible, and no one could be saved....ever!!!

 

[Curtis]

The love of Christ controls us... but is it all the time 100%? You still have freedom of choice.
Even though this love controls you, do you still sin sometimes? Is it the love of God that causes you to sin? No it's your own free-will.

Being "in Christ" man is perfect, and without sin. God has already sanctified, and glorified man in Christ. There can be no darkness or sin in Christ for he is light and in him there is no darkness.
That is being "in Christ", but now on planet earth "Christ is in me". With Christ being in me I am being sanctified which is a ongoing process. I still have my freedom of choice, but God already knows all of my choices that I will make, and if he did not know that, then he would have not sanctified, or glorified anyone before this process is over. I am transforming with "Christ in me" into the man I already am "in Christ"

one of the best things about God's "omniscience" is that he can never discover anything about me that would cause him to change his mind about my salvation.

 

[KingJ]

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

The angels were created before the earth was formed as they were there when God brought the earth into existence. Lucifer was created in Eden the garden of God. Lucifer was NOT created in the garden of Eden. He was known as the serpent not the anointed cherub.

I completely disagree. Garden of Eden = Eden, garden of God.

Ezekiel 28 mentions three places. Garden of Eden. The holy mount of God (Eze 28:14). A place by fiery stones (Eze 28:14 and 16). Verse 17 says ''so I threw you to earth''. Earth being where the garden of Eden was at that time. When he was cast out he was reduced to ashes in comparison to the splendor he previously had Eze 28:18. This speaks to him now being a serpent in the garden of Eden. Banished from heaven / place of fiery stones / the holy mount of God, to Eden. God planned to use him to test Adam and Eve.

God knew mankind would fall. He gave them a weak flesh. He knew it was inevitable. The fall / entering death however does not equate to being a vessel unto dishonor. A vessel unto dishonor is one who chooses hell. A place of eternal punishment. God's wrath. Death / earth is not a place of God's wrath / punishment. There is a difference between those in death in OT Abrahams bosom verse those in death on the other side in Hades for example.

 

[B-A-C]

he can never discover anything about me that would change his mind about my salvation.

But you can!

God picked Judas. Judas did the work of God for a season. Did he know he was going to betray Jesus when he first became a disciple?

Just because you are walking with God "in this season" doesn't mean that's where you will end up.

 

[Curtis]

You said you were chosen in Christ before the foundations of the earth. You were chosen.

God chooses those whom he knew would chose him, and that he knew before the world began!!!

 

[Curtis]

But you can!

God picked Judas. Judas did the work of God for a season. Did he know he was going to betray Jesus when he first became a disciple?

Just because you are walking with God "in this season" doesn't mean that's where you will end up.

 

[KingJ]

You greatly error in your thinking. ALL men are born vessels of dishonor. Did God create them this way? He did not!!! Man is born a sinner which makes him a vessel of dishonor.

Adam sinning did not equate to him now being a vessel unto dishonor. In the context we are discussing (hell) he would have gone straight to the lake of fire. Not earth. If Jesus never died would all those waiting in Abraham's bosom go the lake of fire?

Did God know before the world began that I would accept him as my savior, and then become a vessel of honor? Absolutely yes!!! If the Lord did not know this then salvation would have been impossible, and no one could be saved....ever!!!

Lucky you.

If the Lord did not know this then salvation would have been impossible, and no one could be saved....ever!!!

Your inserted assumption.

Salvation is as simple as us finding a bride who wants to be with us. What you are espousing is ''If God cannot make a bride to be with Him, then He cannot have a bride with Him, ever''.

So you agree with arranged marriages? In their absence there is no marriage?

You are coming unstuck with rational / logic because you are keeping God in a box. Your box.

 

[Curtis]

But you can!

God picked Judas. Judas did the work of God for a season. Did he know he was going to betray Jesus when he first became a disciple?

Just because you are walking with God "in this season" doesn't mean that's where you will end up.

Did Jesus know Judas would betray him? Yes he did.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

 

[Curtis]

Adam sinning did not equate to him now being a vessel unto dishonor. In the context we are discussing (hell) he would have gone straight to the lake of fire. Not earth. If Jesus never died would all those waiting in Abraham's bosom go the lake of fire?

Lucky you.

Your inserted assumption.

Are you assured of your salvation, or are you waiting to see what God will do with you, if you are lucky enough to receive eternal life?

 

[KingJ]

Did Jesus know Judas would betray him? Yes he did.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Please see post # 216

 

[B-A-C]

Did Jesus know Judas would betray him? Yes he did.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

No argument here. He also knows if you'll betray Him at some point in the future.

 

[Curtis]

Adam sinning did not equate to him now being a vessel unto dishonor. In the context we are discussing (hell) he would have gone straight to the lake of fire

This is why we have what is known as "time" Man was given time to change his mind about his actions, and to repent and to have faith in God.

 

[KingJ]

Are you assured of your salvation, or are you waiting to see what God will do with you, if you are lucky enough to receive eternal life?

I am assured. Only assured when I got saved. God does not make mistakes of grafting someone into His family who does not want to be in His family.

This is however a completely unrelated subject to God making the mistake of being evil, by creating me to be with Him. Imagine how that discussion in heaven will go down. One day when we better grasp God.

'So, God, you made me to be with you and all those unlucky people in hell in torment never had a chance'.

 

[Curtis]

No argument here. He also knows if you'll betray Him at some point in the future.

If the Lord knew I would betray him in the future then he would not have.......

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[KingJ]

No argument here. He also knows if you'll betray Him at some point in the future.

So, you believe God hated Esau Rom 9:13? Or Pharaoh sinned because God hardened his heart Exo 9:12?

I would think you be able to find about a hundred scriptures to shed light on John 6:64 and these above.

 

[B-A-C]

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Yes, He foreknows... but you don't.

 

[Curtis]

Like I have said repeatedly. You have put God in your own box.

No, God put me into his "box"