An hour then your thoughts

[KingJ]

@KingJ. -- first of all -- apparently you are still here on Forum. Are you familiar with PMing? Starting a "conversation" instead of talking in open forum as we are now? Or do you prefer talking 'here'.

Will continue after you've responded to this.

I don't want to discuss the subject in a pm. If you want to discuss a personal matter, we can pm.

 

[Sue D.]

I don't want to discuss the subject in a pm. If you want to discuss a personal matter, we can pm.

I've simply been curious as to your family / religious background. I've been in the conservative Baptist church all my life. As well as a few years of Bible college. A few forums as well.

I'm trying to recall - without looking back at this time -- you've made comments regarding God's omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence. That God is only partially omni --. That God is certainly / absolutely Good. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth -- He saw that is was Good. And then vs 31 of ch 1 -- God saw that all that He had made, and it was Very good -- the 6th day. I would like to point out that God Spoke everything into existence. That would be showing His being all-powerful.

And He put that into Scripture for all mankind to read because in His omniscience He knew that in the future -- some people would start thinking along the lines of evolution. That mankind is simply an extention of the animal kingdom. Which according to Genesis -- we aren't. God created human beings separately.

My thought was that if You wish to share on a personal level about your family then PMing might be a good place for that. I'm old enough to be your mother.

 

[Sue D.]

You / me / we have to put ourselves in God's shoes and grasp how hard it is for God to convince us that He is good.

Since God is '''the'' Creator of all. If He does not limit His omniscience He cannot be good. All the evidence points to Him doing just that. When any of us suggest He does not limit His omniscience we are proposing He has darkness inside Him. Every rational mind on this planet is able to add 1 + 1 + 1 and get 3.

Creator + omniscient + hell = evil God.

I am not singling out Curtis. We are all guilty of this. As I have already said, it is truly forgivable as scripture does say He is omniscient. I just want us to better grasp the above and all other scripture that speaks to limited omniscience before we make statements on God.

"If He does limit His omniscience H cannot be good." And I'd commented back that if He limited one of those areas, He be limiting them All. And God Is all of them -- totally. And God is Holy.

 

[KingJ]

I'm trying to recall - without looking back at this time -- you've made comments regarding God's omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence. That God is only partially omni --. That God is certainly / absolutely Good. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth -- He saw that is was Good. And then vs 31 of ch 1 -- God saw that all that He had made, and it was Very good -- the 6th day. I would like to point out that God Spoke everything into existence. That would be showing His being all-powerful.

And He put that into Scripture for all mankind to read because in His omniscience He knew that in the future -- some people would start thinking along the lines of evolution. That mankind is simply an extension of the animal kingdom. Which according to Genesis -- we aren't. God created human beings separately.

This is a difficult issue to grasp. No doubt. I mean for crying out aloud we can literally not grasp a fraction of a percent of how God came to 'be'. We do need to be open to each other's views. The only line I want us to draw is on God being good. If you can arrive at that conclusion via a different understanding to mine, then that would indeed be food for thought. Too many of us just make statements without considering that truth. Leaving readers / hearers to assume the worst about God. So after many discussions on this subject, some key facts arise. Like for example, partiality is evil. No view of God's omniscience can ever be tied to partiality. Special selection.

We need to work with what we ''do'' know about God and go from there. Not quote dictionary definitions of words and allow them to define God. God is omniscient. God is omnipotent. Those two words do not define God anymore then spirit and voice define His existence. Or skin and blood define mine and yours. We are so much more. There is a spirit of 'fire' burning after what is good / righteous / holy. It over-rides all evil opportunities that can exist from being Omni.... That is who God is.

He is who He is. Consider 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not know love does not know God, as God is love. God is omniscient at exactly the same time as He is good. This equates to Him not knowing something if it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that knowing that something be evidence of evil. Just as God does not murder, lie, steal or make a vessel unto dishonor.

We also cannot say ''we cannot judge God''. If that were true, nobody would be going to hell for their evil and wickedness. Imagine getting to heaven and grasping God belongs in hell. Who here would say a partial parent is a good parent? A partial parent belongs in heaven or hell? A racist belongs in heaven or hell?

My thought was that if You wish to share on a personal level about your family then PMing might be a good place for that. I'm old enough to be your mother.

It does not matter how much older you are. We must always speak respectfully to each other. Feel free to call me out if I have been rude. If I had a child at 18 and they had a child at 18, I would be a grandfather :wink:. You are as old as you feel.

 

[KingJ]

"If He does limit His omniscience H cannot be good." And I'd commented back that if He limited one of those areas, He be limiting them All. And God Is all of them -- totally. And God is Holy.

God is all, no argument here. Just don't stop at those two omni's.

God is 100% omnipotent, 100% omniscient, 100% holy, 100% righteous at the same time as He is 100% good, 100% impartial, 100% loving, 100% kind, 100% longsuffering, 100% merciful.

God is a perfect balance of all these qualities, at the same time.

I can read my wife's diary. It sit's atop my bedside table. I do not read it. Just because I can do something does not mean I do. I am limited by the fact that I am a good husband.

God limiting His omniscience is as easy as that to grasp.

No offence to you or anybody else here, but I have yet to hear a strong argument for God not limiting His omniscience. You say 'If He limited His omniscience, He has to limit all His powers, He cannot be trusted'. I do not agree. Can you present an argument for that statement?

Psalm 135:6 God does what pleases Him. It pleases Him to be good. To be impartial. To limit His omniscience. It pleased Him to completely limit His omnipotence on the cross.

 

[Sue D.]

God is all, no argument here. Just don't stop at those two omni's.

God is 100% omnipotent, 100% omniscient, 100% holy, 100% righteous at the same time as He is 100% good, 100% impartial, 100% loving, 100% kind, 100% longsuffering, 100% merciful.

God is a perfect balance of all these qualities, at the same time.

I can read my wife's diary. It sit's atop my bedside table. I do not read it. Just because I can do something does not mean I do. I am limited by the fact that I am a good husband.

God limiting His omniscience is as easy as that to grasp.

No offence to you or anybody else here, but I have yet to hear a strong argument for God not limiting His omniscience. You say 'If He limited His omniscience, He has to limit all His powers, He cannot be trusted'. I do not agree. Can you present an argument for that statement?

Psalm 135:6 God does what pleases Him. It pleases Him to be good. To be impartial. To limit His omniscience. It pleased Him to completely limit His omnipotence on the cross.

You're Not 'limiited' to not reading your wife's diary because you're being a good husband. You ARE respecting her privacy as a good friend and/ or husband would.

Again -- it seems that you Are trying to put God on our level.

God Will Do as He sees fit in each of our lives -- and, yes, God IS all of those qualities you mentioned 100 %

There's really nothing that we Need to be able To grasp / completely understand.

Apparently you missed part of my first sentence You'd started out saying that "If He Does limit His omniscience, then He can't be good." And I commented Back that if He limited One of those areas, He'd be limiting them All. And God Is all of them."
So I Was including all three of His "omni's".

God's omniscience -- all knowledge "Every hair on our heads is numbered'. He knows all who will / who have already / accepted Him as personal Savior.

Because God is Spirit -- He's invisible -- He's Everywhere all the time. Nothing is hidden from Him,.

You've mentioned the cross -- "It pleased Him to 'completely' limit His omnipotence on the cross." Jesus Christ 'bowed' to the will of the Father. Okay -- Yes, He Could have called 10,000 angels to keep Him from dying that horrible death. He sweat great drops of blood before surrendering His will to His Father in heaven. God defied 'nature' and brought Jesus Christ back up from the dead. Jesus Christ GAVE His life FOR us. Died In Our Place.
Well -- the entire time that Jesus Christ was on this earth -- He was 100% God and 100% man. He was tempted as we are, but yet, without sin.

Back up to # 144 -- Our ability to grasp How God came to be. Well -- He's always Been. It's a Fact that we accept. It Kind of sounds like "if You can't grasp a concept about God, then Probably no one else will be able to, either" But that If I or someone else Can then You'll almost be surprised. And You're concerned that the result would be of others believing / assuming the Worse about God. Why? because God is GOOD -- that "no view of God's omniscience can be tied to partiality. Special selection." What Exactly do you mean by that comment? "no view ......" Are you trying to say that God Does NOT have all knowledge of who's going to heaven and who's going to end up in Hell. That God isn't 'partial' to anyone. While it Is true that All people Jews and Greeks (the only two choices) are equal in God's eyes. There IS the question as to whether a 'loving' God could / would Send people to hell -- the point is, though, that He Does know who will or won't accept Him. And Another point is that since We Don't know who will end up in hell. We Are told to share the Gospel unto salvation with all who willingly listen. Whether 'all tho listen ' Will accept Christ as their Savior is in the 'hands of the Holy Spirit'. God won't allow anyone to 'accidentally' end up in heaven Or hell. And, on the Other hand, IF a person feels led To share the Gospel with 'someone' and we don't Want to -- we Don't do it. God Will have someone Else do that -- WE will miss that blessing of sharing.


Partiality being evil ?! No. Sometimes 'we' show partiality because we are Human. Guess That depends on what a person sees as showing partiality.

And, yes, we Do need to be respectful of each other.

 

[Christ4Ever]

This is a difficult issue to grasp. No doubt. I mean for crying out aloud we can literally not grasp a fraction of a percent of how God came to 'be'.

No offence to you or anybody else here, but I have yet to hear a strong argument for God not limiting His omniscience. You say 'If He limited His omniscience,

Dear Brother,
Been reading the exchanges, and just have my curiosity up on reconciling the above statements.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Sue D.]

Let me just clarify, my frustration with you is not your view.

I may be young, but I have blogged and debated with Christians, athiests and Muslims for ten years now. I am currently a regular on two Christian and two atheist sites.

I am sure you do have a lost of wisdom to share and I look forward to further discussion with you. But you really do need to speak nicer and improve your internet discussion skills. If you pass insults or make accusations, you need to quote. A different view is fine.



Can you please give support for stating this?

Not trying to be sarcastic, but David says '''Give thanks because God is good'' in Psalm 136:1. I interpret it as ''Give thanks because God is good''. Where am I going wrong?


If it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that God is evil. Would you still serve Him? Still give ''thanks''? The devil would want us to believe the underlined. The bible is so full of actual examples shouting God's goodness.



God gave me a working brain that can. Mankind is accountable for their sins and needs a Savior, because mankind has a working brain. A high intelligence that can grasp right and wrong.

You are saying God did not give us the ability to grasp right and wrong with Him? We must serve God because He is....God? He knows He gave us the ability and for a reason. He does not want puppets in heaven. He wants a bride / children that are actually after His own desires. After His heart.

I propose you read Genesis 18 and pay careful attention to Abraham's inquisition of God and His wrath on Sodom. Or Moses in Exodus 32 with punishment on the Jews for the golden calf.

God did not create Lucifer as the most beautiful angel. Lucifer was promoted to a position where he wore a crown that was beautiful. His was given a position above the other angels. Your statement is on par with saying some babies are born with a briefcase and others with spanners. You need to think more on it. Angels are created a little above us.

Correct. We just need to grasp that He is good and is ''love'' 1 John 4:8 and that He has no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. We can then apply this to all the other characteristics of His power.....in case we assume He is evil.

Example 1: God is omnipotent. Does He make a vessel unto dishonor Rom 9:21? A resounding NO. Why? 1 John 4:8, 1 John 1:5, Psalm 136:1.
Example 2: God is omniscient. Does He know those things that can be proven to be evil 'to know'? A resounding NO. Why? 1 John 4:8, 1 John 1:5, Psalm 136:1.

You say ''we don't need to understand''. I propose that if any of us do not understand that God is light with no darkness in Him at all, that we then have a belief that differs to the message we have heard from the beginning 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from the beginning, God is light with no darkness in Him at all'.

You commented that "I really do need to speak nicer and improve your internet discussion skills." And when haven't I spoken nicely -- and How would you suggest I improve my 'internet discussion skills" ----- you Do realize that That is a turn-off.

 

[KingJ]

Dear Brother,
Been reading the exchanges, and just have my curiosity up on reconciling the above statements.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

No problem, I will clarify. They are unrelated statements.

''This is a difficult issue to grasp. No doubt. I mean for crying out aloud we can literally not grasp a fraction of a percent of how God came to 'be'.

Grasping God in His entirety is difficult. I am using an example of which we have no supporting evidence for. We have evidence that He exists but none for how He came to be. We can rack our brain for days, months and still not have any clue. I have stated repeatedly that we can only look at where the evidence points. We cannot come to a conclusion on God based on dictionary definitions of words. We need to consider how God defines Himself in scripture, how God interacted / interacts with mankind, how people who interacted with Him in scripture define Him.

When we do the defining, we place God in our little box. ''God has to know who is en route to hell as He is omniscient''. Broken up into '''God has to know'' = our inserted assumption. ''As He is omniscient'' = our placing God of the universe in our box to the exclusion of all other scripture. It is like explaining to someone who has just read Rom 9 to now grasp that God is not that God. He can be. That does not mean He is.

''No offence to you or anybody else here, but I have yet to hear a strong argument for God not limiting His omniscience. You say 'If He limited His omniscience,''

I am trying to avoid playing devils advocate with myself here. Since we cannot grasp God in His entirety, we should be able to present convincing arguments for both limited and unlimited omniscience. We can have Rom 14:5 type disagreements on God's omniscience. Different views but same end result of God being good. I am looking for someone here to present that argument against limited omniscience. Sue for example is saying, God is good and that if He limits His omni's He is limited / not a God. Ok, explain? Convince me that God can be good without limiting His omniscience. Nobody has done that. Every person here disagreeing with me has only left the door open for terrible assumptions of God (which I have shown) or avoided an explanation. We must close that door.

We cannot teach the unsaved about our God's omniscience and foreknowledge if we cannot close that back door to destructive heresies. As I have stated before, every rational mind on this planet can grasp ''Creator + Omniscient + hell = evil God''. Is that our message to the unsaved when we are asked to explain God's omniscience? We just stop right before the logical answer?

 

[KingJ]

You're Not 'limiited' to not reading your wife's diary because you're being a good husband. You ARE respecting her privacy as a good friend and/ or husband would.

Respecting her privacy is being a good husband.

Again -- it seems that you Are trying to put God on our level.

Regarding what is good and evil, God has put us on His level when He gave us our working brains.

God Will Do as He sees fit in each of our lives -- and, yes, God IS all of those qualities you mentioned 100 %

If He is those qualities 100% then why do you espouse a wicked God and propose He does not limit His omniscience when it points to wickedness?

There's really nothing that we Need to be able To grasp / completely understand.

Please explain.

Apparently you missed part of my first sentence You'd started out saying that "If He Does limit His omniscience, then He can't be good." And I commented Back that if He limited One of those areas, He'd be limiting them All. And God Is all of them."
So I Was including all three of His "omni's".

God's omniscience -- all knowledge "Every hair on our heads is numbered'. He knows all who will / who have already / accepted Him as personal Savior.

Because God is Spirit -- He's invisible -- He's Everywhere all the time. Nothing is hidden from Him,.

You are not dealing with the question. I asked you to explain why you said what you said.

You've mentioned the cross -- "It pleased Him to 'completely' limit His omnipotence on the cross." Jesus Christ 'bowed' to the will of the Father. Okay -- Yes, He Could have called 10,000 angels to keep Him from dying that horrible death. He sweat great drops of blood before surrendering His will to His Father in heaven. God defied 'nature' and brought Jesus Christ back up from the dead. Jesus Christ GAVE His life FOR us. Died In Our Place.

Glad we finally agree on something. God limited His omnipotence to do what is good. Reconcile mankind who wants to be with Him, with Him.

Back up to # 144 -- Our ability to grasp How God came to be. Well -- He's always Been. It's a Fact that we accept.

That is not answering the question. Yes, that is a fact because scripture says it. But it is not a fact we need to interrogate / have an explanation for the unsaved on, as it does not speak to God's character. Omniscience and foreknowledge does.

It Kind of sounds like "if You can't grasp a concept about God, then Probably no one else will be able to, either" But that If I or someone else Can then You'll almost be surprised. And You're concerned that the result would be of others believing / assuming the Worse about God. Why? because God is GOOD -- that "no view of God's omniscience can be tied to partiality. Special selection." What Exactly do you mean by that comment? "no view ......" Are you trying to say that God Does NOT have all knowledge of who's going to heaven and who's going to end up in Hell. That God isn't 'partial' to anyone. While it Is true that All people Jews and Greeks (the only two choices) are equal in God's eyes. There IS the question as to whether a 'loving' God could / would Send people to hell -- the point is, though, that He Does know who will or won't accept Him. And Another point is that since We Don't know who will end up in hell. We Are told to share the Gospel unto salvation with all who willingly listen. Whether 'all tho listen ' Will accept Christ as their Savior is in the 'hands of the Holy Spirit'. God won't allow anyone to 'accidentally' end up in heaven Or hell. And, on the Other hand, IF a person feels led To share the Gospel with 'someone' and we don't Want to -- we Don't do it. God Will have someone Else do that -- WE will miss that blessing of sharing.

This is a Calvinistic view of the gospel. I though you said you were not a Calvinist?

 

[KingJ]

Partiality being evil ?! No. Sometimes 'we' show partiality because we are Human. Guess That depends on what a person sees as showing partiality.

How is partiality by a Creator to His creation not evil?

How is partiality by a parent to their children not evil?

 

[KingJ]

Well -- the entire time that Jesus Christ was on this earth -- He was 100% God and 100% man. He was tempted as we are, but yet, without sin.

This is a good and true statement. But I feel you need to look closer at what you have stated to grasp my view.

Jesus was completely abandoned. Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me.

Jesus experienced the temptations of the flesh in full measure. No half measures. Matt 26:39 ''Please take this cup from me''.

If all God needed was for Jesus to die, why this? This is the million dollar question!

I propose it is because God is making a point crystal clear to those who are listening. The point is, that He takes His dealings with mankind, seriously. He does not want us to have ANY doubt as to His commitment to mankind. As to His love. As to His goodness. He upholds who He is, to the maximum. He does what is necessary to achieve true free will and true impartiality.

I always shudder to think that there are 'Christians' that are 'ok' with serving a God that they would with their rational mind, judge as evil.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Thanks for replying so quickly brother.
With no intent in getting involved...yet here I am so doing
Though not necessarily in disagreement

No problem, I will clarify. They are unrelated statements.

''This is a difficult issue to grasp. No doubt. I mean for crying out aloud we can literally not grasp a fraction of a percent of how God came to 'be'.?[/QUOTE]

Actually, I didn't see them as unrelated or I'd not have placed them together and pose the question to you.
I took the initial statement as you saying that He is not Eternal, but finite (beginning), if so then the latter point on Omniscience is an unworkable concept to attribute to God since it would require God to learn.

Truth is that I have no problem with God limiting Himself. Jesus as God incarnate did so while on Earth, but not while He was/is in Heaven. However, to me it has more to do with God's Omnipotence. Understanding that He can do anything, but also understanding that He doesn't have to do everything. It's all about His Will and not our own.

You and our Sister in Christ Jesus are having a very interesting conversation! Thanks for sharing with the rest of us you two! Love you both!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Sue D.]

No problem, I will clarify. They are unrelated statements.

''This is a difficult issue to grasp. No doubt. I mean for crying out aloud we can literally not grasp a fraction of a percent of how God came to 'be'.

Grasping God in His entirety is difficult. I am using an example of which we have no supporting evidence for. We have evidence that He exists but none for how He came to be. We can rack our brain for days, months and still not have any clue. I have stated repeatedly that we can only look at where the evidence points. We cannot come to a conclusion on God based on dictionary definitions of words. We need to consider how God defines Himself in scripture, how God interacted / interacts with mankind, how people who interacted with Him in scripture define Him.

When we do the defining, we place God in our little box. ''God has to know who is en route to hell as He is omniscient''. Broken up into '''God has to know'' = our inserted assumption. ''As He is omniscient'' = our placing God of the universe in our box to the exclusion of all other scripture. It is like explaining to someone who has just read Rom 9 to now grasp that God is not that God. He can be. That does not mean He is.

''No offence to you or anybody else here, but I have yet to hear a strong argument for God not limiting His omniscience. You say 'If He limited His omniscience,''

I am trying to avoid playing devils advocate with myself here. Since we cannot grasp God in His entirety, we should be able to present convincing arguments for both limited and unlimited omniscience. We can have Rom 14:5 type disagreements on God's omniscience. Different views but same end result of God being good. I am looking for someone here to present that argument against limited omniscience. Sue for example is saying, God is good and that if He limits His omni's He is limited / not a God. Ok, explain? Convince me that God can be good without limiting His omniscience. Nobody has done that. Every person here disagreeing with me has only left the door open for terrible assumptions of God (which I have shown) or avoided an explanation. We must close that door.

We cannot teach the unsaved about our God's omniscience and foreknowledge if we cannot close that back door to destructive heresies. As I have stated before, every rational mind on this planet can grasp ''Creator + Omniscient + hell = evil God''. Is that our message to the unsaved when we are asked to explain God's omniscience? We just stop right before the logical answer?

You seem to be hung up on God's omniscience. Why? All- knowledge.

How God came to Be -- Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God.....created.... And John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word Was God . He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made and without Him nothing was made that was made." He didn't Need to be created. He's always Been. I don't spend my time wracking my brain about it. You've commented that you spend time on various forums and discussions with various belief systems -- atheists being amongst them. I was on what turned out to be an atheistic forum -- and I got into some very interesting discussions. There were a miriad of subjects available to discuss. I tried to avoid the really controvercial topics. I learned a Lot about genetics. One very intellegent guy was a scientist -- a geneticist. Said he Wanted to believe in God. The rest of his family were Lutheran. They all believed in God. But he believed that as a scientist he could not in good conscience be a 'true' scientist and believe in God at the same time. His approach was to dump all the bad stuff that happened in the world on 'God'. He'd lost a niece a few years before that and while the rest of the family found relief in God -- he blamed God for his death. And one of the other guys on the forum had lost a leg in an accident. Blamed God. Even though neither believed in 'Him'. He wanted to convert me to Theistic Evolution. I said Nope. After a while, they managed to get me banned.

In This world -- we observe the birth,life, death cycle. Can we grasp that Adam was created out of the dust of the earth and God breathed into Him the breath of life and man became a living soul? Some people Won't because it sounds too preposterous and therefore can't be.

You brought up Romans 14:5 "One man considers one day more sacred than another, another man considers every day alike. Each man should be fully convinced in his own mind." That passage is talking about Sabbath and Lord's Day (Sunday / 1st day of week) worship. Some feel that we need to keep the Ten Commandments -- keeping the Sabbath day holy. After a week of work -- take one day for God. That That was meant to be an everlasting covenant. And it Was Until Jesus Christ rose from the grave very early on the 1st day of the week. Not on the Sabbath. Most churches Do worship on Sunday -- Honoring Christ's bodily resurrection.

There are those who are Firm believers in Sabbath Worship -- Most of us worship on Sunday. The idea being that we are Not to critizise either of these groups. As long as a person is taking one day a week to worship God. AND as long as it's not a 'good works' thing with them. NOW -- You're trying to apply That to limited and unlimited omniscience. You want That argument against limited omniscience. You want to be convinced that God can be good without limiting His omniscience.

Well -- part of a response would be what I've already shared at some point. God creating this world in 6, 24-hr days. He Spoke everything into existence. All- power. He did NOT create the basics and then leave everything up to nature to develop over millions of years. His all-knowledge -- He told Moses through the Holy Spirit since no one except God/ trinity was there -- exactly how and when everything was created. BECAUSE He Knew that in future history there would be those who Would question the origin of this world and man. God has seen fit to Share some of His knowledge with mankind.

You also say that everyone on 'here' who disagrees with You leaves the door open for terrible assumptions of God (which You have shown) or avoided an explanation. We must close that door. "Everyone here disagreeing with me...." maybe there's a reason Why 'everyone' here is disagreeing with you.

And Why would the unsaved need to be taught about God's omniscience and foreknowledge? That is Not part of God's plan for our salvation.

What are the destructive heresies you are referring To?

what do You understand to be the Gospel unto salvation message?!

I'm looking forward to your response to all of this.

Trust you've been having a productive day.

 

[Sue D.]

This is a good and true statement. But I feel you need to look closer at what you have stated to grasp my view.

Jesus was completely abandoned. Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me.

Jesus experienced the temptations of the flesh in full measure. No half measures. Matt 26:39 ''Please take this cup from me''.

If all God needed was for Jesus to die, why this? This is the million dollar question!

I propose it is because God is making a point crystal clear to those who are listening. The point is, that He takes His dealings with mankind, seriously. He does not want us to have ANY doubt as to His commitment to mankind. As to His love. As to His goodness. He upholds who He is, to the maximum. He does what is necessary to achieve true free will and true impartiality.

I always shudder to think that there are 'Christians' that are 'ok' with serving a God that they would with their rational mind, judge as evil.

Jesus Christ knew that God would Have to 'forsake' Him when he died on the cross. God is Holy -- He cannot look on Any sinfulness. Jesus Christ took all of our sins upon Himself. The sky went dark -- the veil in the temple was torn in two bottom to top. Meaning that 'we' no longer need a human high priest to intercede for us to God. Jesus Christ became our high priest at that moment.

IF all God needed was for Jesus to die? Why This -- the million dollar question, Because He is God. It was His plan from the very beginning. He knew that mankind would Need a Savior. The Godhead -- The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. God the Father came to earth -- born of Mary -- as a Jewish person with the purpose to show all of mankind to the Father. He came to die on that cross , suffer for us , die - In our place - with all our sins. Then He went to hell for us -- and then came back to this earth -- rose again bodily. And then ascended back up to heaven to the Father. To be at the right hand of God the Father.

As people -- 'we' need to acknowledge our personal need For a personal Savior. Being 'saved' From eternity in hell and TO eternal life in heaven. And in the process of living our life here -- we -- when we've accepted Jesus Christ as our own personal Savior -- we will Want to share this with everyone. We will have an inner peace that No one can take away from us. People Will be able to 'see' Christ living within us. That does Not mean sinless perfection will be attained while we are still Here. While Here, we are to be reading God's Word and growing in knowledge of God -- how to live a Christian life that will attract people To Him.

 

[KingJ]

I took the initial statement as you saying that He is not Eternal, but finite (beginning), if so then the latter point on Omniscience is an unworkable concept to attribute to God since it would require God to learn.

Agreed. The only evidence for that, is scripture. Scripture is true, so it is a truthful statement. But can we grasp it? There is no evidence to analyze.

Truth is that I have no problem with God limiting Himself. Jesus as God incarnate did so while on Earth, but not while He was/is in Heaven. However, to me it has more to do with God's Omnipotence. Understanding that He can do anything, but also understanding that He doesn't have to do everything. It's all about His Will and not our own.

Agreed. However I would argue that grasping the cross / limited omnipotence is only a part of grasping limited omniscience.

The greater truth is that God is true to Himself. He judges Himself. He passes judgement on love for His creation with the cross. He says John 15:13 and performs John 15:13. He does not blur what love is. He does not blur what goodness and righteousness is. He says it ''like it is'' in scripture. He does this with boldness because He has nothing to hide. I hate hearing Christians state ''He works in mysterious ways''. He wants us to judge Him and grasp that He passes with flying colors. He wants a bride that wants to be with Him.

So, now on foreknowledge, we need to ask how does a God pass His own acid test of holiness and righteousness when creating intelligent angels, humans and a very real hell. It can only be that the Creator, limit His omniscience.

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ --- I'm trying to figure out Where you're 'going' with all of 'this'. Are you a born-again believer? Have you accepted Jesus Christ as Your personal Savior?

You said that " I hate hearing Christians state "He works in mysterious ways.". Well -- He Does -- 'we' Don't understand the why's of some of His actions. Because His ways are Not 'our ways'.

Are you including yourself as being a Christian?

Who are 'we' to judge Him? and grasp that He passes with flying colors?! "passes" with flying colors?! what exactly is He supposed to be 'passing'? So that 'we' will Want to be with Him. So What exactly do You want Him / God/ to be Doing to attract Him to us?

How about what He has Already Done For us. He sent His son, Jesus Christ , into this world to die on the cross for us. Would you Rather that God Didn't have His Son come into this world -- that we'd Still have to die in our sins and end up in hell? Would you Rather spend all of Your eternal years in pain, agony, in total darkness along with satan? and the beast and the false prophet?

 

[KingJ]

You seem to be hung up on God's omniscience. Why? All- knowledge.

Because it is directly related to free will. No limited omniscience = no true free will. No true free will is the heart of Calvinism.

How God came to Be -- Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God.....created.... And John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word Was God . He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made and without Him nothing was made that was made." He didn't Need to be created. He's always Been. I don't spend my time wracking my brain about it. You've commented that you spend time on various forums and discussions with various belief systems -- atheists being amongst them. I was on what turned out to be an atheistic forum -- and I got into some very interesting discussions. There were a miriad of subjects available to discuss. I tried to avoid the really controvercial topics. I learned a Lot about genetics. One very intellegent guy was a scientist -- a geneticist. Said he Wanted to believe in God. The rest of his family were Lutheran. They all believed in God. But he believed that as a scientist he could not in good conscience be a 'true' scientist and believe in God at the same time. His approach was to dump all the bad stuff that happened in the world on 'God'. He'd lost a niece a few years before that and while the rest of the family found relief in God -- he blamed God for his death. And one of the other guys on the forum had lost a leg in an accident. Blamed God. Even though neither believed in 'Him'. He wanted to convert me to Theistic Evolution. I said Nope. After a while, they managed to get me banned.

That geneticist is conflicted. He does not believe in God because God is evil? So much evidence points to the existence of God. That is science. God being good or evil is a separate subject to His existence. It has to do with whether or not anybody actually cares about serving the One in charge.

For this reason God is 'more' concerned with us grasping Him by His actions / character over His physical make up. Hence I am still fresh and eager to defend God as good for another 1000 pages :wink:. Help fellow Christians to do the same and not bring in destructive heresies, like what we find at the core of Calvinism.

I am in your space on evolution. A belief in evolutions opens the door to three in-reconcilable issues for me 1. God is evil. Natural selection is evil, just ask the guy that was eaten. 2. The bible is a recent fairytale. Where are the 200k years of missing scripture? Intelligent man was here at about that time. 3. Mocks the cross. Who did Jesus die for? Adam's father was accountable for his actions or only Adam?

 

[B-A-C]

Because it is directly related to free will. No limited omniscience = no true free will. No true free will is the heart of Calvinism.

I would disagree here. Knowing everything, doesn't mean causing it to happen. Knowing you will make a decision doesn't mean "making" you make that decision.

Also keep in mind... the "no free will thing" applies to OSAS as well. If I can't get unsaved after being saved... then I lose the "free will" ability to do so.
This ties in with predestination also... no true "free-will", everything was already planned.

Some people try to separate these three points, but it is almost impossible to do it.

 

[B-A-C]

Much of this thread has turned to Calvinism/Armenianism discussion... but actually I think the opening video does that also to a point.

I think every one who has been a Christian for a long time, tends to have their mind made up about how much is up to us "free-will".
and how much is up to God. It seems just about EVERY single debate her eon TalkJesus is related to this in one way or another.

Sometimes it gets a little tedious talking about it, but sometimes there is no getting around it.
Still I wonder... is there anything left to say about it, that hasn't already been said a thousand times?

I see very few people on here changing their minds about it either way.