An hour then your thoughts

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- I was just looking at your bio info -- you're only 35 yrs. old. What Bible study have you done? Bible college? You are sounding like you feel you have a great deal of knowledge and want to 'correct' others where needed.

I've been brought up in Bible -- I'm in my late 60's.

So - amiable conversation?!

 

[Curtis]

Curtis -- aren't there three heavens? One we call the atmosphere around the earth. The next is where the planets are and the 3rd is up where God and the angels are.

A question -- you made a comment that Satan/ Lucifer regained that access to heaven - God's throne- after Adam forfeited his authority to the serpent. Adam Did give in to satan's lie -- but he, Adam, still had dominion over the animal world.

There are three heavens, and God's throne is in the third Heaven.
The Apostle Paul said said that who ever you "obey" you become their slave. (Romans 6:16)

Luke 4:5 And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time,
Luke 4:6 and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will.

The serpent had Adam's authority which he yielded to the serpent in the garden.

 

[Sue D.]

Curtis --- in Genesis 1:28 ".....Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." vs 27 -- So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." Also stated in ch 2 -- man named all the animals.

Adam Did believe the serpant's lie in the Garden -- rather than obeying God's Word. Adam bought into satan's deception about what God Really said. Doubting the authority of God's Word.
But Adam didn't 'buy into' the serpents' authority. Well, maybe temporarily. But as soon as they took a bit of that fruit, they saw they'd messed up. They hid themselves from God's presence. They knew Immediately that they were naked. Their loss of innocense.

Adam didn't loose his dominion over / rule of the animal world.

In Luke -- the temptation of Jesus by satan/ devil. Remember satan, the devil is the biggest liar in the world.
4:6 and 7 -- satan was tempting Jesus to worship him and all the world would be His. However -- Jesus responds back with "It is written; Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."

There Are those who Do worship satan. We are told Not to. If we Do, we'll end up the same way that satan knows he will end up.

Satan is involved with this world But only for 'now'. His plan is to distract as many people Away from God / salvation / as possible.

Part of satans' tempting of Jesus is telling him to make a rock into bread so as to not be hungry any more. But Jesus Christ counters that with " It is written, Man does not live on bread alone" Our spiritual bread is God's Word. The Great "I am's' of Christ.

Part of satan's temptation to Jesus was for Him to decide Not to endure the cross. But that's what Jesus Christ came For. If it weren't for the cross -- everyone would be dying in our own sins and ending up where satan will eventually be Forever.

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

 

[Curtis]

Adam didn't loose his dominion over / rule of the animal world.

Even today Satan is known as the god of this world. Of course his only power now is the power of deception.

2Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1John 5:19 We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one.

Jesus through his death burial, and resurrection took back the power and authority that Adam had given up the the serpent in the garden.
.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

This power was the power, and authority Satan had given to him by Adam. He did not just freely give it up, it had to taken from the Devil!

1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[Sue D.]

Even today Satan is known as the god of this world. Of course his only power now is the power of deception.

2Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1John 5:19 We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one.

Jesus through his death burial, and resurrection took back the power and authority that Adam had given up the the serpent in the garden.
.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

This power was the power, and authority Satan had given to him by Adam. He did not just freely give it up, it had to taken from the Devil!

1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Okay -- we agree that his only power Now is the power of deception.

Okay -- the 2 Corinthians passage.

But I wouldn't agree that Jesus Christ took Back the power and authority that Adam had given up. That particular sentence of yours' -- taking back the power and authority , etc. I don't think I agree with that. There's just something about that sentence that doesn't 'feel right'.

Sometimes a truth can be expressed in two different ways -- a glass can be seen as either half Empty or half Full -- exactly the same amount of water. One view is 'positive' and the other is 'negative'.

Christ made a way for us to be restored to God through His death, burial and resurrection -- the fall of man through Adam exists to this day, Mankind today has a free choice to accept or reject God's free gift through Calvary.

Doctrinal apologetics is important.

Every once in a while the pastor in a Bible study group I'm in will test us -- he'll say something and see if we're willing to disagree with him. He's a very good Bible teacher. But he wants us to be conscious of the fact that just because a pastor / teacher says something 'from the Bible' -- that we Should be able to question him about it. And he Can give the question to the rest of us. That way the pastor / teacher knows what We understand about what the Bible Is teaching.

 

[Curtis]

But I wouldn't agree that Jesus Christ took Back the power and authority that Adam had given up. That particular sentence of yours' -- taking back the power and authority , etc. I don't think I agree with that. There's just something about that sentence that doesn't 'feel right'.

Remember, God gave unto Adam to have dominion over ALL the works of his hands.(Ps 8:4-6) The serpent did not have authority, or dominion over any thing, until Adam gave it to him. Jesus said......

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

You can not be a ruler unless you have power, and authority to rule.

 

[Curtis]

Okay -- we agree that his only power Now is the power of deception.

Jesus had to take away the power that kept man in bondage, and it was not just deception, but real power, and authority that Adam had given up.

Col 2:14 He wiped out the written Law with its rules. The Law was against us. It opposed us. He took it away and nailed it to the cross.
Col 2:15 He took away the weapons of the powers and authorities. He made a public show of them. He won the battle over them by dying on the cross. (NiRV)

We must not forget that Adam's dominion was based on the Word of God that God had said to him.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Satan's dominion, and power came by the word of God also!!!!!

He wiped out the written Law with its rules. The Law was against us. It opposed us. He took it away and nailed it to the cross.

The law (the word of God) was against man because man had broke God's laws which Satan used to accuse man before God!!
The next verse tells us........

He took away the weapons of the powers and authorities.

The weapons, which is were Satan's power, and authority came from was the word of God contained in the law.

1Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Satan was known as "the accuser of the brethren"(Rev 12:10)

Satan, because of his access to God for which Adam had given up, had legal right to accuse man before God. An accuser is the same as a prosecuting attorney in a court of law that uses "laws" to base his case on. God can not let his laws go unpunished to those who broke them, and Satan knew that!!! Satan knew man could never be saved because the law said....."....the soul that sinneth must die....."

How could man die, and still be saved? There was no way it could happen.
Except, if another man could fulfill the law, die for the sins of man, which all those "in Christ" would also die, (Gal 2:20) fulfilling the demands of the law, that the soul that sinneth must die, yet Jesus did not stay
dead, but raised from the dead raising us also with him!!!! (Eph 2:6)

The plan of salvation is really really simple to understand if we pay attention to what the Holy Spirit says.

 

[Sue D.]

Curtis -- I'm going to let this subject 'rest' -- maybe someone else can interact with you.

Besides -- "an hour then your thoughts." started out on a very different subject and then turned to 'angels'.

Salvation is the most important subject. Every one will spend eternity either in heaven or hell. The biggest, most important decision a person will ever make is whether or not a person accepts God's way to get to heaven.

 

[KingJ]

Limited omniscience is No omniscience at all.

Can you explain why you say this. Would you say limited omnipotence is no omnipotence at all?

I asked you if God makes vessels unto dishonor. Does He?

Just because God can make a vessel unto dishonor does not mean He does. God is limited by who He is. He is good.

Just because God can know everything, does not mean He does. God is limited by who He is. He is good.

 

[Sue D.]

@ KingJ -- well -- as I've stated previously -- either God is omniscient or He Isn't. Either He's omnipotent or He Isn't.

So -- you're saying that God is Good. A lot of People are 'good'. You probably consider Yourself to be 'good'. I might consider Myself to be pretty good. I'm a good person Outwardly.

So -- you're saying that God is 'good' is putting Him on your level or mine or Any person here on earth who'd consider themself to be 'good'. Or putting youself on His level. So -- in reality -- for You at least - God isn't really God.

Sounds more like you're an agnostic. To You -- you're not really convinced that there's enough evidence to say that He is or is Not God.

That Also suggests that you feel that you can set your own standards for living -- you don't have to follow God's Word -- you can do as you please and be just fine. You're buying into one of satan's lies.

There is that verse that says -- "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

A lot of good people are very strong and very knowledgable -- would that put them on the same level as God -- if God has limited knowledge or limited strength.

 

[KingJ]

@ KingJ -- well -- as I've stated previously -- either God is omniscient or He Isn't. Either He's omnipotent or He Isn't.

There is no argument as to God being omniscient. The question / issue is on Him being able to limit it to uphold being good.

As I asked three times now, God is able to make a vessel unto dishonor, does He?

You seem either unable or unwilling to deal the actual question.

So -- you're saying that God is Good. A lot of People are 'good'. You probably consider Yourself to be 'good'. I might consider Myself to be pretty good. I'm a good person Outwardly.

So -- you're saying that God is 'good' is putting Him on your level or mine or Any person here on earth who'd consider themself to be 'good'. Or putting youself on His level. So -- in reality -- for You at least - God isn't really God.

Saying God is good is not putting Him on our level. David says give thanks because God is good. Paul says we must grasp God is good. I quoted these scriptures and yet you say what you say. Why? You are not replying to what I have stated. This is why I ask you to quote me. You are making discussion unnecessarily frustrating.

 

[B-A-C]

2 Tim 2:20; Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
2 Tim 2:21; Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

I include the verses below for context...

Rom 9:18; So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19; You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Rom 9:20; On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Rom 9:21; Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Rom 9:22; What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Isa 45:9; "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands'?

Isa 64:8; But now, O LORD, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand.

 

[B-A-C]

Probably the main passage used to support predestination.

Rom 9:11; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12; it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14; What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15; For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16; So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Another passage people have trouble with here....

Job 1:13; Now on the day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house,
Job 1:14; a messenger came to Job and said, "The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them,
Job 1:15; and the Sabeans attacked and took them. They also slew the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you."
Job 1:16; While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you."
Job 1:17; While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The Chaldeans formed three bands and made a raid on the camels and took them and slew the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you."
Job 1:18; While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "Your sons and your daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house,
Job 1:19; and behold, a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people and they died, and I alone have escaped to tell you."
Job 1:20; Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped.
Job 1:21; He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."
Job 1:22; Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

Satan was allowed to test Job. As part of this "test" all his sons and daughters were killed and captured.
All of the servants and shepherds were killed also.
Does God let (innocent?) people be killed in order to let someone be tested?

[KJV] Isa 45:7; I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[B-A-C]

Paul says we must grasp God is good.

Just curious... what is the scripture reference for that?

Now of course I believe God "IS" good. But where is this phrase in the Bible?
Where does it says He's a good good Father in the Bible?

Everything God created is good. He wants us to do good. Every good and perfect gift comes from Him.
But if it's so important for us to grasp that God is good. Where is the scripture that supports this?

The closest I could get (and it wasn't from Paul) was...
Mark 10:18; And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

 

[Sue D.]

@ B-A-C -- your last three posts -- good thoughts. Especially #114. God allowed Job to be tested.

And, yes, God IS in charge -- He created this world. He is sovereign. He has His master plan for Everyone. That does NOT mean that we Need to understand everything God does or does Not do.

And, yes, God Did say that everything created was good. But He was Not limiting His omnipotence. He's all-powerful -- He proved that by creating Everything in 6 - 24 hr days by Speaking it into existence. And there Are those who will say -- How could God possibly Speak everything into existence. The same way that Jesus spoke to the wind and it ceased and the waves of water and they calmed. Because He IS omnipotent. And 'this' is probably more @KingJ.

 

[Sue D.]

There is no argument as to God being omniscient. The question / issue is on Him being able to limit it to uphold being good.

As I asked three times now, God is able to make a vessel unto dishonor, does He?

You seem either unable or unwilling to deal the actual question.

Saying God is good is not putting Him on our level. David says give thanks because God is good. Paul says we must grasp God is good. I quoted these scriptures and yet you say what you say. Why? You are not replying to what I have stated. This is why I ask you to quote me. You are making discussion unnecessarily frustrating.

Well -- then why are You Making His omniscience an issue.

You'll probably get another frustrating response from me.

David's saying that God is 'good' -- people saying that 'God is good' is being said in a very different way than you have been expressing it. The way You are saying it is Limiting his omniscience. God does Not Need to limit of any His Being. "We" simply need to be willing to Accept Him.

In the process of creating this universe -- world -- our environment. God said -- and it was 'good' -- and God's omnipotence created it all by His Speaking it all into existence.

And God resurrected Jesus Christ from the dead. He broke the power that satan had over humanity.

As B.A.C was saying -- 'we' are not in the position to question why God does what He does. God created Lucifer as the most beautiful angel. In God's omniscience -- He knew what Lucifer would do And He knew He already had His plan to put an eternal End to Lucifer / satans / the devils freedom. Both God And Lucifer, satan know what will happen to satan for all eternity.

"We" don't Need to understand all of God's attributes -- especially the three omni's.

 

[KingJ]

Just curious... what is the scripture reference for that?

Now of course I believe God "IS" good. But where is this phrase in the Bible?
Where does it says He's a good good Father in the Bible?

Everything God created is good. He wants us to do good. Every good and perfect gift comes from Him.
But if it's so important for us to grasp that God is good. Where is the scripture that supports this?

The closest I could get (and it wasn't from Paul) was...
Mark 10:18; And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

I discuss this in my post # 98.

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from the beginning, God is light with no darkness in Him, at all.

If we say He has darkness. IE If we say He is not a good Father. IE If we say He can make a vessel unto dishonor as 5pt Calvinists do. We are going against the message we have heard from the beginning.

Then we have Eph 3:18 may have power, together with all the Lord's holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.

If God was a bit dark, His love would not be very deep. We need to grasp how high and deep it is because it is not obvious to grasp. Because it defies brain matter. It is spiritually discerned as someone else stated. But spiritually discerned in the direction of what a working brain does grasp as good. IE God is great and good at the same time. Properly grasping that is a spiritual revelation. Something like Peter grasped in Acts 10:34 A truth I have grasped, God is no respecter of persons.

If we read Davids verse in Psalm 136:1, we need to grasp the 'because'. Give thanks because God is good. For me this is a key verse for every Calvinist to grasp. If God was not good......we should not....give thanks.

 

[KingJ]

Well -- then why are You Making His omniscience an issue.

You'll probably get another frustrating response from me.

Let me just clarify, my frustration with you is not your view.

I may be young, but I have blogged and debated with Christians, athiests and Muslims for ten years now. I am currently a regular on two Christian and two atheist sites.

I am sure you do have a lost of wisdom to share and I look forward to further discussion with you. But you really do need to speak nicer and improve your internet discussion skills. If you pass insults or make accusations, you need to quote. A different view is fine.

David's saying that God is 'good' -- people saying that 'God is good' is being said in a very different way than you have been expressing it. The way You are saying it is Limiting his omniscience. God does Not Need to limit of any His Being. "We" simply need to be willing to Accept Him.

Can you please give support for stating this?

Not trying to be sarcastic, but David says '''Give thanks because God is good'' in Psalm 136:1. I interpret it as ''Give thanks because God is good''. Where am I going wrong?

God does Not Need to limit of any His Being. "We" simply need to be willing to Accept Him.

If it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that God is evil. Would you still serve Him? Still give ''thanks''? The devil would want us to believe the underlined. The bible is so full of actual examples shouting God's goodness.

As B.A.C was saying -- 'we' are not in the position to question why God does what He does.

God gave me a working brain that can. Mankind is accountable for their sins and needs a Savior, because mankind has a working brain. A high intelligence that can grasp right and wrong.

You are saying God did not give us the ability to grasp right and wrong with Him? We must serve God because He is....God? He knows He gave us the ability and for a reason. He does not want puppets in heaven. He wants a bride / children that are actually after His own desires. After His heart.

I propose you read Genesis 18 and pay careful attention to Abraham's inquisition of God and His wrath on Sodom. Or Moses in Exodus 32 with punishment on the Jews for the golden calf.

God created Lucifer as the most beautiful angel. In God's omniscience -- He knew what Lucifer would do And He knew He already had His plan to put an eternal End to Lucifer / satans / the devils freedom. Both God And Lucifer, satan know what will happen to satan for all eternity.

God did not create Lucifer as the most beautiful angel. Lucifer was promoted to a position where he wore a crown that was beautiful. His was given a position above the other angels. Your statement is on par with saying some babies are born with a briefcase and others with spanners. You need to think more on it. Angels are created a little above us.

"We" don't Need to understand all of God's attributes -- especially the three omni's.

Correct. We just need to grasp that He is good and is ''love'' 1 John 4:8 and that He has no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. We can then apply this to all the other characteristics of His power.....in case we assume He is evil.

Example 1: God is omnipotent. Does He make a vessel unto dishonor Rom 9:21? A resounding NO. Why? 1 John 4:8, 1 John 1:5, Psalm 136:1.
Example 2: God is omniscient. Does He know those things that can be proven to be evil 'to know'? A resounding NO. Why? 1 John 4:8, 1 John 1:5, Psalm 136:1.

You say ''we don't need to understand''. I propose that if any of us do not understand that God is light with no darkness in Him at all, that we then have a belief that differs to the message we have heard from the beginning 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from the beginning, God is light with no darkness in Him at all'.

 

[KingJ]

Probably the main passage used to support predestination.

Rom 9:11; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12; it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14; What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15; For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16; So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Another passage people have trouble with here....

Job 1:13; Now on the day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house,
Job 1:14; a messenger came to Job and said, "The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them,
Job 1:15; and the Sabeans attacked and took them. They also slew the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you."
Job 1:16; While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you."
Job 1:17; While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The Chaldeans formed three bands and made a raid on the camels and took them and slew the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you."
Job 1:18; While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "Your sons and your daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house,
Job 1:19; and behold, a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people and they died, and I alone have escaped to tell you."
Job 1:20; Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped.
Job 1:21; He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."
Job 1:22; Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

Satan was allowed to test Job. As part of this "test" all his sons and daughters were killed and captured.
All of the servants and shepherds were killed also.
Does God let (innocent?) people be killed in order to let someone be tested?

[KJV] Isa 45:7; I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This proves that it is reasonable for Calvinists to exist. A rational mind can interpret these verses as God is partial / shows favoritism / is Calvinistic.

With verses like this the devils job to paint God as wicked is made easy and ours that much harder.

We need to properly grasp that that is our job. Christianity 101 is grasping the goodness and love of God through Jesus and the cross. Allowing that to shine light on all contentious scripture. Praying for the Holy Spirit to help us grasp context and as Peter did in Acts 10:34, that God is not partial.

There was a time Peter believed God was partial. Then there was a time Peter no longer believed that.

 

[KingJ]

Just curious... what is the scripture reference for that?

Just thinking further on this. How about every instance in scripture where God judgement / action was an act / deed that every sane, righteous and good person today would agree with?