An hour then your thoughts

[KingJ]

God is giving man "time" to choose whom he will serve. The Lord is not willing that any should perish so he is given man time to repent. Time is just another form of God's "mercy" upon the human race.

I agree and this all points to limited omniscience.

 

[KingJ]

come on brother you dont think Curt can undo what God wants do you?? thats silly

You / me / we have to put ourselves in God's shoes and grasp how hard it is for God to convince us that He is good.

Since God is '''the'' Creator of all. If He does not limit His omniscience He cannot be good. All the evidence points to Him doing just that. When any of us suggest He does not limit His omniscience we are proposing He has darkness inside Him. Every rational mind on this planet is able to add 1 + 1 + 1 and get 3.

Creator + omniscient + hell = evil God.

I am not singling out Curtis. We are all guilty of this. As I have already said, it is truly forgivable as scripture does say He is omniscient. I just want us to better grasp the above and all other scripture that speaks to limited omniscience before we make statements on God.

 

[KingJ]

Love, free-will, foreknowledge, and predestination. ... what a mix!

Here is my 2 cents.

I believe God knows everything, even what we call the future. This is foreknowledge.
But that doesn't mean He makes all the choices for everyone. That's predestination.

God is the creator. Creator + foreknowledge = predestination. If God was not the creator of all, your point stands.

 

[KingJ]

He knows exactly what each person has done and will do in the future -- yesterday, today and tomorrow. He knows that I'll stub my toe and learn to have shoes on my feet in order to protect my toes.

Scripture? You are assuming and stating what sounds right. Which I have already proven to be evil.

 

[B-A-C]

I'm not exactly sure why you consider hell evil?

I think some people confuse "good" with "nice".

A nice parent, lets their kids stay up too late, eat too many sweets, and doesn't scold their kids for misbehaving.
A good parent is just the opposite. They say you have rules, and you get punished for misbehaving.

A nice judge lets all the murderers, child-molesters and rapists go free.
A good judge does just the opposite. He send them to prison for a long time.

A nice teacher doesn't give any homework, lets the bigger kids bully the weaker kids, and grades very leniently.
A good teacher makes sure the kids learn what is required. A good teacher protects her students from others.

=================================================================================================

A nice God says anything goes, there aren't really any rules. There is no punishment for mis-treating my children.
There are no consequences for killing my only Son. Nothing bad will happen to you if you reject me.

A good God punishes the wicked, judges the evil, and sends those who reject His Son to Hell.

 

[KingJ]

I'm not exactly sure why you consider hell evil?

I don't. I believe hell is a sign of God's mercy. He could annihilate. In addition I believe hell is a Geneva convention type separation. But lets not rehash that discussion here :wink:.

What is evil is, when you create a being knowing its final destination is a place of a eternal separation from you in torment.

The only way God can not be evil is if He limits His omniscience. God is good, therefore He ''must'' limit His omniscience.

I have not addressed the rest of your post as I agree with you. Good points.

 

[KingJ]

The Devil is predicable as he always has the same MO, to kill, steal, and to destroy. The devil did not kill Jesus he laid down his life so that through death he might destroy him who had the power of death, and to destroy the works of the devil.

The devil did not have that MO in heaven. He had more responsibility because God gave Him more responsibility. God gave him more responsibility because he would have proven himself to God.

To believe the opposite to what I have stated is to believe God set the devil up for a fall. God is evil. Why would God give the devil such a position if He knew it would go to his head.

IE. God did ''not'' know it would go to his head. God gave the devil true free will. God limited His omniscience and chose to be surprised.

Jesus lay His life down. The devil and wicked humans did not have to abuse that. They did. They beat and crucified Him. God knew to expect it, as He can make educated guesses. As He did with Judas.

 

[Sue D.]

I agree and this all points to limited omniscience.

It sounds like you're trying to put God on our level.

Either God is omniscient or He isn't. WE are the one's with limited knowledge. Limited omniscience is No omniscience.

God alone knows who His elect are -- He alone knows who will reject His way to get to heaven.

We are told what hell will be like in the future eternity. Lake of fire and brimstone -- that does Not go out. Utter darkness. Lacking God's presence. God is the light of this world -- without Him there is total darkness. There will be nashing of teeth.

In our human experience with fire -- it eventually burns its self out. A person dies in a fire here on earth. Lots of times, inhailing smoke or fumes will kill the person before the actual flames do.

We Do need to realize that the horrible eternal conditions are meant only for satan, the false prophet and the beast. Everyone else Does have God's way to get to a blissful eternity in heaven -- the New Jerusalem.

There is Also satan -- the greatest liar to mankind ever known. He wants all the company he can get to spend his horrible time for eternity With him. So he tells us lies -- like it isn't really all That bad. Or that all our friends that we are partying with will be there, too, and all the Christian's will be gone so there will be no one to 'preach' to us against all the fun we're having. Well -- probably all the friends they've been partying with Will be there -- but in pain, agony, regret. All the 'if-onlies' IF only we'd Listened to the Gospel that we'd laughed at and Accepted it.

And the lie he's telling us Now is that hell won't really be That bad. His Mercy?! He could annihilate?! Annihilate means to wipe out totally. Exist no more. God has shown His Mercy by providing salvation for us. He originally provided mankind with a perfect environment. The Garden of Eden. We couldn't obey one simply rule -- don't eat of that one tree in the entire garden. Adam and Eve listened to satan instead of God. WE messed up -- God provided His way for us to renew our relationship with Him. The earth and everything on it -- people, animals, ground became cursed. But because OF God's mercy - He has provided salvation From eternity in hell and being able TO enjoy the New Jerusalem in the future.

You're comparing 'hell' to a Geneva Convention- type of separation. You DO realize that the Geneva Convention has been ignored by most every country that entered into it in the first place. Prisoners are Supposed to be treated 'fairly' and 'humainly' by their captors. Sometimes POW's have encountered those 'nice conditions' but mostly Not. Some countries have shown exactly how Harsh they can be -- Those countries make prisoner's wish they Were dead / Could die.

Apparently That discussion Does need to be 'rehashed'.

Satan Wants his future eternal destination to be shared by all the people he is presently LYING to. Remember he's the greatest deceiver known to mankind.

People would Like to think that hell won't be Forever for Anyone. That a person Will be caste there, but it will be like our dying in a fire here on earth. Eventually we'll simply cease to exist.

 

[Sue D.]

The devil did not have that MO in heaven. He had more responsibility because God gave Him more responsibility. God gave him more responsibility because he would have proven himself to God.

To believe the opposite to what I have stated is to believe God set the devil up for a fall. God is evil. Why would God give the devil such a position if He knew it would go to his head.

IE. God did ''not'' know it would go to his head. God gave the devil true free will. God limited His omniscience and chose to be surprised.

Jesus lay His life down. The devil and wicked humans did not have to abuse that. They did. They beat and crucified Him. God knew to expect it, as He can make educated guesses. As He did with Judas.

God Did know how Lucifer would act -- God has His master plan for His universe. HE will again provide mankind with a Perfect world to live in Forever.

 

[Sue D.]

God Did know how Lucifer would act -- God has His master plan for His universe. HE will again provide mankind with a Perfect world to live in Forever.

Please do NOT put God on the level of making educated guesses. He knew Exactly what would happen -- the cross -- Judas betraying Him.

IF we could understand everything that God chose will choose to do -- then we'd be putting God on our level. Or we'd be putting Us on God's level. Neither one is correct.

 

[Curtis]

The devil did not have that MO in heaven.

Lucifer (AKA the devil, Satan) never lived in Heaven!! He was cast out of Heaven after he " attempted to ascended his throne up above the stars of God, above the clouds" to be like the most high.!! Lucifer was cast out of Heaven back down to the earth after he ascended up to where the throne of God was. Lucifer ruled on the earth as you can not ascend above the clouds, or stars of heaven unless you are first under the stars or clouds, and if you started under the clouds, and stars then you are on the earth! Lucifer had a "throne" from which he ruled, and it was not in Heaven, but on earth!

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 

[Sue D.]

Curtis -- Lucifer Started Out in heaven -- how else could he have been caste Out. So -- where was Lucifers throne here on earth?

In the book of Job -- God was addressing a group of angels and Satan was amongst them. Some of the angelic realm were / are messenger angels -- they go back and forth from heaven to earth. ( Abram / Sodom and Gohmorah / two angels came to visit / they can take on human form). That group of angels had come to present themselves before the Lord and Satan was with them.

The Isaiah 14 passage -- in his heart he'd said -- his attitiude was that of wanting to be even higher up in heaven than God was. He wanted his Own throne. Like God had His throne -- Lucifer wanted his own to be even higher than Gods.

After being thrown out -- he couldn't go back and forth as the others could.

 

[Curtis]

Curtis -- Lucifer Started Out in heaven -- how else could he have been caste Out. So -- where was Lucifers throne here on earth?

In the book of Job -- God was addressing a group of angels and Satan was amongst them. Some of the angelic realm were / are messenger angels -- they go back and forth from heaven to earth. ( Abram / Sodom and Gohmorah / two angels came to visit / they can take on human form). That group of angels had come to present themselves before the Lord and Satan was with them.

The Isaiah 14 passage -- in his heart he'd said -- his attitiude was that of wanting to be even higher up in heaven than God was. He wanted his Own throne. Like God had His throne -- Lucifer wanted his own to be even higher than Gods.

After being thrown out -- he couldn't go back and forth as the others could.

Lucifer had "access" to God's throne before his fall but lost his access when he was cast back down to the earth, and then he regained that access after Adam forfeited his authority to the serpent, which is why we find him before God in the book of Job. After Jesus "dethroned" Satan in his death, burial, and resurrection, he no longer has access any more.

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Why would Lucifer need to "ascend into Heaven" if he was already there?

 

[Sue D.]

Curtis -- aren't there three heavens? One we call the atmosphere around the earth. The next is where the planets are and the 3rd is up where God and the angels are.

A question -- you made a comment that Satan/ Lucifer regained that access to heaven - God's throne- after Adam forfeited his authority to the serpent. Adam Did give in to satan's lie -- but he, Adam, still had dominion over the animal world.

 

[KingJ]

Lucifer (AKA the devil, Satan) never lived in Heaven!! He was cast out of Heaven after he " attempted to ascended his throne up above the stars of God, above the clouds" to be like the most high.!! Lucifer was cast out of Heaven back down to the earth after he ascended up to where the throne of God was. Lucifer ruled on the earth as you can not ascend above the clouds, or stars of heaven unless you are first under the stars or clouds, and if you started under the clouds, and stars then you are on the earth! Lucifer had a "throne" from which he ruled, and it was not in Heaven, but on earth!

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

I am not sure why you raising this. The point I made was that there was a time the devil was not a devil.

Did God set the devil up for a fall by promoting him, yes or no? That is what we need to focus discussion on :wink:.

 

[KingJ]

Either God is omniscient or He isn't.

I never said He is not. Scripture is ''crystal'' clear He is. But you and everyone else are falling short in properly grasping how a good God is omniscient.

Example: God is omnipotent. All powerful. Rom 9 says He can make a vessel unto dishonor. Does He?

Does God lie? Does God cheat? Does God steal? Does God murder? Does God make a vessel unto dishonor? Yes or No?

Likewise, omniscience. Just because God can know everything there is to know (and we all agree He can) .....does not mean He does....when it points to being evil.

 

[KingJ]

God Did know how Lucifer would act -- God has His master plan for His universe. HE will again provide mankind with a Perfect world to live in Forever.

So God knew that by promoting the devil, it would go to his head, cause him to be very evil and spend his entire eternity in suffering and torment in hell? Have I got your belief right?

- God set the devil up for a fall. God is evil?
- God showed this being love and blessings. ''I love you so much / I am love''' whilst knowing their future was eternal torment. God is demented?
- God did not show him love? God is partial?

You have just espoused an evil and demented God, please prove me wrong. Please also try focus on the points made to keep discussion on track.

I believe God is good. So all those statements are incredulous.

 

[KingJ]

Please do NOT put God on the level of making educated guesses. He knew Exactly what would happen -- the cross -- Judas betraying Him.

God puts Himself on that level. He put Himself on a cross. You think He has pride issues?

Luke 6:13 At daybreak he called together all of his disciples and chose twelve of them to be apostles.

That scripture says ''Jesus chose twelve to be disciples''. If you disagree, then you are saying Jesus was lying. He did not choose them all to be apostles...?

Note, it does not say: 'Jesus chose eleven and one devil to betray Him'.

When did Jesus know Judas would betray Him?

IF we could understand everything that God chose will choose to do -- then we'd be putting God on our level. Or we'd be putting Us on God's level. Neither one is correct.

God wants us to grasp that He is good Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good, Eph 3:18 may have power, together with all the Lord's holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.

All you are doing is saying you can't use your God given brain to grasp God, so you will support the dictionary definition of words that paint God as evil. A Christian is supposed to defend God. You are not doing that. You are simply stating what you think sounds right. I am telling you that that what sounds right is terribly wrong.

 

[KingJ]

In our human experience with fire -- it eventually burns its self out. A person dies in a fire here on earth. Lots of times, inhailing smoke or fumes will kill the person before the actual flames do. People would Like to think that hell won't be Forever for Anyone. That a person Will be caste there, but it will be like our dying in a fire here on earth. Eventually we'll simply cease to exist.

So, you believe in annihilation? I can to a degree as well. There is a lot of scripture that hints at it. Seems a bit blurry to me.

We Do need to realize that the horrible eternal conditions are meant only for satan, the false prophet and the beast. Everyone else Does have God's way to get to a blissful eternity in heaven -- the New Jerusalem.

Why do you say hell is meant for only satan? You are now espousing God is not omniscient. He never foresaw humans joining satan?

The verse you are thinking of Matt 25:41 'hell was created for the devil and the fallen angels', is not saying it was not created for humans.

Example: I built my house for my wife and my family. Adopted children? Grandmother? A needy person? Yes. I just mentioned the initial purpose. Not the all inclusive purpose. So to now explain to someone a non inclusive purpose is simply error.

There is Also satan -- the greatest liar to mankind ever known. He wants all the company he can get to spend his horrible time for eternity With him.

How do you know he wants that? That is not what he wants, I can promise you that.

So he tells us lies -- like it isn't really all That bad. Or that all our friends that we are partying with will be there, too, and all the Christian's will be gone so there will be no one to 'preach' to us against all the fun we're having. Well -- probably all the friends they've been partying with Will be there -- but in pain, agony, regret. All the 'if-onlies' IF only we'd Listened to the Gospel that we'd laughed at and Accepted it.

You are diverging into an off topic subject and making assumptions. Please quote this and move it to a thread discussing hell. The devil knows what is coming. People know a judgement day is coming. People know they will have to answer for their sins. They put that off. The wicked love the darkness more then the light, that is the verdict John 3:19. There is no ''what if''. Then, as to the pain and suffering, what scripture are you inferring?

You're comparing 'hell' to a Geneva Convention- type of separation. You DO realize that the Geneva Convention has been ignored by most every country that entered into it in the first place.

You do realize that that is beside the point?

Prisoners are Supposed to be treated 'fairly' and 'humainly' by their captors. Sometimes POW's have encountered those 'nice conditions' but mostly Not. Some countries have shown exactly how Harsh they can be -- Those countries make prisoner's wish they Were dead / Could die. Apparently That discussion Does need to be 'rehashed'.

Yes, it has been discussed in detail. I will try find the thread and pm it to you. I would like to hear your thoughts on scripture on hell. Many make assumptions from books they have read of of dreams people had.

 

[Sue D.]

I am not sure why you raising this. The point I made was that there was a time the devil was not a devil.

Did God set the devil up for a fall by promoting him, yes or no? That is what we need to focus discussion on :wink:.

How did God Promote satan? God created angels -- Lucifer was an angel. God created him as the most beautiful angel. God didn't set up Lucifer for Anything. God DID know what Lucifer would do.

So, my answer would be 'no'. And Why do we need to focus on That?

You're focusing on how 'good' God is -- why not focus on God's Holiness. That fact that He is God Almighty.

You Almost sound like you're not convinced that God IS truly who He says He is. That's He's more like the grandfatherly-type who is doing His best to be 'God' -- but He's getting old and is loosing some of His 'power'.

Also -- you're focusing on Lucifer -- you're trying to figure out 'free will' -- the 'why' God did what He did. Why Lucifer did what he did. Maybe accept the fact that it happened. God didn't create Us as puppits -- We are not angels -- never were -- never will be. Angels Are what they are. A realm of existence that we don't really understand. Do we really Need to.

You want to keep this discussion on track --

I'm certainly NOT espousing those adjectives to God. I wouldn't Dare to espouse those words to God.

You're Assuming something is isn't correct. Limited omniscience is No omniscience at all.

I'm Not going to go round and round about it.