A discussion about believing you are born again

[KingJ]

This is just a thought that came to my mind.

The scripture states that the Holy Spirit inspired Mary to speak when she met Elizabeth. At that time, was Mary born again?

Good point. There is truth to that. As Christians God does work through us to reach others.

But there is more to understand on the subject. A Christian is someone who knows God found them. Found them because their hearts were after God's. Heart after Gods = Rom 12:9 Hate what is evil and cling to what is good, which leads to repentance Psalm 51:17, which leads to God drawing near to us James 4:8, which leads to The Holy Spirit giving us a revelation of Jesus being Lord God 1 Cor 12:3. At this moment we become born again, a new creation 2 Cor 5:17. We enter eternal life / a relationship with God as our Father. Not as God.

So what I say to Muslims is this: ''You are not good''. You pray 5 times a day, big deal. You should pray all day. You help the poor. Good, how well do you help them? Are you living modestly? Giving all surplus to the needy?

If we properly cross examine all who claim to be ''good'' we will find many holes. Atheists argue that all our good acts are from selfishness. They are not 100% correct, but they are perhaps 95% correct?

It is those 5% that actually have a heart for the needy, a heart for wanting to learn more about God and His ''good'' ness....that God finds....that God grafts in to His family. It is important to note that God is good. As we could argue that many devout religious people following a wicked god, are not good. Duh, I know :wink:. But there is truth to insanely large differences between god fearing and god fearing based on the god you serving.

 

[KingJ]

I don't agree with this at all.
I have known many people who would out shine many Christians in their love and caring for people.
They always did good and hated evil and felt that is why they would go to heaven.

You are not looking deep enough / seeing the full picture.

Jesus says the devil has been sinning since the beginning. Making the point that God made no mistake casting him out. He has never wanted to repent / made any effort to correct his mistakes.

Now God will not make the mistake of sending any person to hell, who desires what is good 51% as opposed to 49%.

The reason Jesus says ''I am the truth the way and the life'' is because He ''knows'' that God will find those after His heart and graft them in / give them a revelation of Jesus.

Good works are evidence of either selfishness or a heart after God's. IE Actually caring for others / fulfilling the second commandment. Hence verses like James 1:27.

Hence we are not wrong to make statements as you are ''unless you are born again = hell''. Or ''reject Jesus = hell''. We just need to understand that God looks at depths of intent before grafting us in.

We hate sin, we repent, God pays us a visit. That is how it works.

If you disagree then you must believe there is magic in saying the sinners prayer. Do you believe all who put up there hand in church and repeat a sinners prayer are born again?

Truth is, without Christ their goodness gets burned up with the hay and stubble .

You are sounding more and more like a 5 point Calvinist. So you were the ''lucky'' good person, chosen to be saved?

As long as this desire of repentance came before their natural death.

Why does someone repent? You making ''parroted statements''. You simply are not grasping what all happens behind the scenes.

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Your logic here simply does not line up with Scripture.

We are all sinners. So, what is the difference between a sinner who gets chosen and a sinner who doesn't? If you say repentance, then please explain what leads to repentance.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

You are not looking deep enough / seeing the full picture.

Jesus says the devil has been sinning since the beginning. Making the point that God made no mistake casting him out. He has never wanted to repent / made any effort to correct his mistakes.

Now God will not make the mistake of sending any person to hell, who desires what is good 51% as opposed to 49%.

The reason Jesus says ''I am the truth the way and the life'' is because He ''knows'' that God will find those after His heart and graft them in / give them a revelation of Jesus.

Good works are evidence of either selfishness or a heart after God's. IE Actually caring for others / fulfilling the second commandment. Hence verses like James 1:27.

Hence we are not wrong to make statements as you are ''unless you are born again = hell''. Or ''reject Jesus = hell''. We just need to understand that God looks at depths of intent before grafting us in.

We hate sin, we repent, God pays us a visit. That is how it works.

If you disagree then you must believe there is magic in saying the sinners prayer. Do you believe all who put up there hand in church and repeat a sinners prayer are born again?


You are sounding more and more like a 5 point Calvinist. So you were the ''lucky'' good person, chosen to be saved?

Why does someone repent? You making ''parroted statements''. You simply are not grasping what all happens behind the scenes.

We are all sinners. So, what is the difference between a sinner who gets chosen and a sinner who doesn't? If you say repentance, then please explain what leads to repentance.

Why do you do this KJ?
You make a statement and I reply and then you quote my statement and reply with something all together different then what the reply was too.

How can we have a serious conversation in such a way?

Here is the op
↑you said
There is simply no such thing as a good person who does not know Jesus

I said
I don't agree with this at all.
I have known many people who would out shine many Christians in their love and caring for people.
They always did good and hated evil and felt that is why they would go to heaven.

Truth is, without Christ their goodness gets burned up with the hay and stubble .

Then you reply with

You are not looking deep enough / seeing the full picture.

Jesus says the devil has been sinning since the beginning. Making the point that God made no mistake casting him out. He has never wanted to repent / made any effort to correct his mistakes.

Now God will not make the mistake of sending any person to hell, who desires what is good 51% as opposed to 49%.

The reason Jesus says ''I am the truth the way and the life'' is because He ''knows'' that God will find those after His heart and graft them in / give them a revelation of Jesus.

Good works are evidence of either selfishness or a heart after God's. IE Actually caring for others / fulfilling the second commandment. Hence verses like James 1:27.

Hence we are not wrong to make statements as you are ''unless you are born again = hell''. Or ''reject Jesus = hell''. We just need to understand that God looks at depths of intent before grafting us in.

We hate sin, we repent, God pays us a visit. That is how it works.

If you disagree then you must believe there is magic in saying the sinners prayer. Do you believe all who put up there hand in churchand repeat a sinners prayer are born again?

This One
↑Ok you said
There will be nobody in hell who desires repentance at a level that would cause God to take notice / trust it's sincerity. God does not make mistakes.


As long as this desire of repentance came before their natural death.

Then you reply with
Why does someone repent? You making ''parroted statements''. You simply are not grasping what all happens behind the scenes.

Or even this
I said

Truth is, without Christ their goodness gets burned up with the hay and stubble

You reply
You are sounding more and more like a 5 point Calvinist. So you were the ''lucky'' good person, chosen to be saved?

KJ no offense but your reply has no bearing to what I said.

Blessings to you

 

[Bill]

When the reborn read this they are assured they can live without sin.
Isn't that the point of repentance...to turn from sin?


No, just that you are still a child of the devil.
Repentance from sin is still available to them though...thanks be to God.

My friend, please never say such a thing. You dont know what you say when you call someone a child of the devil.

I have known very wicked people in my lifetime, but ive never stopped hoping they could be saved. All people are Gods created children. They may never know who thier creator is, the fact still remains, God created them.

 

[KingJ]

Why do you do this KJ?
You make a statement and I reply and then you quote my statement and reply with something all together different then what the reply was too.

I disagree, I believe you don't read properly.

Why do you do this KJ?Here is the op
↑you said
There is simply no such thing as a good person who does not know Jesus

I said
I don't agree with this at all.
I have known many people who would out shine many Christians in their love and caring for people.
They always did good and hated evil and felt that is why they would go to heaven.

Truth is, without Christ their goodness gets burned up with the hay and stubble .

Then you reply with

You are not looking deep enough / seeing the full picture.

Jesus says the devil has been sinning since the beginning. Making the point that God made no mistake casting him out. He has never wanted to repent / made any effort to correct his mistakes.

Now God will not make the mistake of sending any person to hell, who desires what is good 51% as opposed to 49%.

The reason Jesus says ''I am the truth the way and the life'' is because He ''knows'' that God will find those after His heart and graft them in / give them a revelation of Jesus.

Good works are evidence of either selfishness or a heart after God's. IE Actually caring for others / fulfilling the second commandment. Hence verses like James 1:27.

Hence we are not wrong to make statements as you are ''unless you are born again = hell''. Or ''reject Jesus = hell''. We just need to understand that God looks at depths of intent before grafting us in.

We hate sin, we repent, God pays us a visit. That is how it works.

If you disagree then you must believe there is magic in saying the sinners prayer. Do you believe all who put up there hand in churchand repeat a sinners prayer are born again?

I am trying to reply politely and give you the fuller picture.

If you want a more direct reply to your post, here it is.

I don't agree with this at all.

If you disagree then you believe good people will be in hell. Well lucky you, that God chose you. One good person who does not need to go to hell. How fortunate you are among all the other good people. Your belief insinuates God is dumb, partial and wicked. Good Job, Christianity fail of epic proportions. You the chosen one, who said some magical words and chose the right religion.

I have known many people who would out shine many Christians in their love and caring for people.
They always did good and hated evil and felt that is why they would go to heaven.

So you are God now? You presume to know the depths of hearts and minds like God?

Why did God choose Abraham and not Cain? Could it be because Cain was evil and Abraham good? Uhm, yes. That should be dead obvious.

Truth is, without Christ their goodness gets burned up with the hay and stubble

You reply
You are sounding more and more like a 5 point Calvinist. So you were the ''lucky'' good person, chosen to be saved?

KJ no offense but your reply has no bearing to what I said.

If you believe their goodness gets burned up with hay and stubble, you are a 5 point Calvinist.

A Calvinist believes we all deserve hell but God chooses some for heaven. When you say there is no difference among sinners, by saying all our goodness is useless, you ''are'' saying that.

Now the truth is that our goodness does not get us into heaven. But it shows God we want heaven. You confuse salvation being a free gift with choosing to serve Jesus. God does not decide to pick person A and person B at random. God scours the earth for someone after His heart. Your belief (unless you better explain it) is extreme heresy.

 

[Bill]

I totally disagree with this.
Man is God's creation.
His children are those who obey Him.

To be like Christ is to be a suffering servant?
Suffering as How?
Blessings to you

There are Gods created children, all of mankind. And then you have those who have come to the Lord. Gods called. Jews and Christians.
Jesus showed us, His followers, to be as servants to others. (He washed the feet of His followers) . Jesus, who humbled Himself. To die on a cross.
We who accept Jesus, know we are Gods children. But we are still sent out as servants. To preach, to help, to be good stuarts to the rest of mankind. Our task that is set before us is not to condemn our brothers and sisters who do not know Christ, but to bear the light, to have Christ within, and bring the light to the world.

 

[Bill]

1 Cor 1:18; For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
2 Cor 2:15; For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;
2 Cor 3:18; But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Eph 2:22; in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
Col 3:10; and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him—

I agree... many claim to already be "done". But the Bible says it's a process. They think it's already a "done deal".


Php 3:12; Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Jas 1:12; Blessed is a man who perseveres under temptations; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
1 Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1 Pet 1:9; obtaining as the outcome of your testing in the faith the salvation of your souls.
Php 2:12; So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Unfortunately, the "done" teaching is gaining in popularity. It is of the devil

 

[B-A-C]

The KJV of the bible does NOT have the "ing" portion that your version of the bible has.
So if we look at 1 John 3:8,9,and 10, we can tell that the sinner has not even started to grow in Christ.
Something has restrained his total submission to God.

You can't get away from 1st John 3:9; your whole doctrine is on this one verse. What does your KJ Bible says about the other verses I posted.
I notice you didn't say anything about them.

Php 3:12; Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Jas 1:12; Blessed is a man who perseveres under temptations; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
1 Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1 Pet 1:9; obtaining as the outcome of your testing in the faith the salvation of your souls.
Php 2:12; So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

 

[B-A-C]

The KJV of the bible does NOT have the "ing" portion that your version of the bible has.
So if we look at 1 John 3:8,9,and 10, we can tell that the sinner has not even started to grow in Christ.
Something has restrained his total submission to God.

I like the King James, I use it. I have 3 copies of it. But as the language has changed, people don't understand the meaning of words.
Some articles about this. Let me know if you know of others that disagree with these.

Early Modern English - Wikipedia
old English verbs eth endings...
What happened to the “‑est” and “‑eth” verb suffixes in English?

- from wikpedia -
The plural present form became uninflected. Present plurals had been marked with -en and singulars with -th, or -s (-th and -s survived the longest, especially with the singular use of is, hath, and doth). Marked present plurals were rare throughout the Early Modern period, though, and -en was probably only used as a stylistic affectation to indicate rural or old-fashioned speech.

Plural present... plural denotes "multiple. Generally words ending in "th" denote plural.. or multiple.
But even King James doesn't always follow this.

Luke 17:7; But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?

In todays language we would say.. He "has" come from the field. Has being past tense.. Is being present tense.
But you can't "go and sit down" until you've already come in from the field. In fact, you can't even tell the servant
to sit down until he comes in from the field.

If this is true... then (every?) word that ends in th could be translated as....

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth(mutiple) sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth(multiple) hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth(multiple) righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth(multiple) sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth(multiple) from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth(multiple) not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth(multiple) not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[Bill]

I like the King James, I use it. I have 3 copies of it. But as the language has changed, people don't understand the meaning of words.
Some articles about this. Let me know if you know of others that disagree with these.

Early Modern English - Wikipedia
old English verbs eth endings...
What happened to the “‑est” and “‑eth” verb suffixes in English?



Plural present... plural denotes "multiple. Generally words ending in "th" denote plural.. or multiple.
But even King James doesn't always follow this.

Luke 17:7; But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?

In todays language we would say.. He "has" come from the field. Has being past tense.. Is being present tense.
But you can't "go and sit down" until you've already come in from the field. In fact, you can't even tell the servant
to sit down until he comes in from the field.

If this is true... then (every?) word that ends in th could be translated as....

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth(mutiple) sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth(multiple) hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth(multiple) righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth(multiple) sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth(multiple) from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth(multiple) not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth(multiple) not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

I personally like reading a bible that has a more direct translation from Hebrew and Greek to English. But even there, there are words in Hebrew that cannot be translated into English. An example of this, the Hebrew word for "I am". (God talking to Moses) . In English we say I am, the correct translation would be "I's am". You see in our grammer we dont have a singular plural noun. The Jews understood about God and the Spirit of God as being One.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

If you disagree then you believe good people will be in hell. Well lucky you, that God chose you. One good person who does not need to go to hell. How fortunate you are among all the other good people. Your belief insinuates God is dumb, partial and wicked. Good Job, Christianity fail of epic proportions. You the chosen one, who said some magical words and chose the right religion.

See it's replies like this .
Have a great day.

If you believe their goodness gets burned up with hay and stubble, you are a 5 point Calvinist.

A Calvinist believes we all deserve hell but God chooses some for heaven. When you say there is no difference among sinners, by saying all our goodness is useless, you ''are'' saying that.

Now the truth is that our goodness does not get us into heaven. But it shows God we want heaven. You confuse salvation being a free gift with choosing to serve Jesus. God does not decide to pick person A and person B at random. God scours the earth for someone after His heart. Your belief (unless you better explain it) is extreme heresy.

We are done.
Please Stop with the Name calling.

One minute you are saying I am wrong about ..... a person's good deeds will be burned up with the hay and stubble if they do not have Christ in their life.

Then you yourself say our goodness won't get us into heaven.

Blessings to you

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

There are Gods created children, all of mankind. And then you have those who have come to the Lord. Gods called. Jews and Christians.
Jesus showed us, His followers, to be as servants to others. (He washed the feet of His followers) . Jesus, who humbled Himself. To die on a cross.
We who accept Jesus, know we are Gods children. But we are still sent out as servants. To preach, to help, to be good stuarts to the rest of mankind. Our task that is set before us is not to condemn our brothers and sisters who do not know Christ, but to bear the light, to have Christ within, and bring the light to the world.

Greetings,
People are God's creation
Children of God are those who are made right, brought or bought back to God through or by Christ Jesus.

Blessings to you

 

[Bill]

Greetings,
People are God's creation
Children of God are those who are made right, brought or bought back to God through or by Christ Jesus.

Blessings to you

You say it better than i do, thank you

 

[Bill]

I disagree, I believe you don't read properly.

I am trying to reply politely and give you the fuller picture.

If you want a more direct reply to your post, here it is.

If you disagree then you believe good people will be in hell. Well lucky you, that God chose you. One good person who does not need to go to hell. How fortunate you are among all the other good people. Your belief insinuates God is dumb, partial and wicked. Good Job, Christianity fail of epic proportions. You the chosen one, who said some magical words and chose the right religion.

So you are God now? You presume to know the depths of hearts and minds like God?

Why did God choose Abraham and not Cain? Could it be because Cain was evil and Abraham good? Uhm, yes. That should be dead obvious.
If you believe their goodness gets burned up with hay and stubble, you are a 5 point Calvinist.

A Calvinist believes we all deserve hell but God chooses some for heaven. When you say there is no difference among sinners, by saying all our goodness is useless, you ''are'' saying that.

Now the truth is that our goodness does not get us into heaven. But it shows God we want heaven. You confuse salvation being a free gift with choosing to serve Jesus. God does not decide to pick person A and person B at random. God scours the earth for someone after His heart. Your belief (unless you better explain it) is extreme heresy.

All right, knock it off. You are all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

You need to apologise to your brother, just as i have apologized in the past here to others. Otherwise Satan will be laughing at our silliness.

Peace Always, bill

 

[Bill]

See it's replies like this .
Have a great day.



We are done.
Please Stop with the Name calling.

One minute you are saying I am wrong about ..... a person's good deeds will be burned up with the hay and stubble if they do not have Christ in their life.

Then you yourself say our goodness won't get us into heaven.

Blessings to you

My friend, hug your brother. Apology and acceptance are what is most important here.

 

[At Peace]

My friend, please never say such a thing. You dont know what you say when you call someone a child of the devil.

Scripture makes it very clear who is a child of the devil...(1 John 3:8-10)

I have known very wicked people in my lifetime, but ive never stopped hoping they could be saved. All people are Gods created children. They may never know who thier creator is, the fact still remains, God created them.

As all are sons of Adam, who was a son of God, you are correct in your posting.
But those men change their status from God's children to the devil's children by their propensity to commit sin..
If you are reborn, of God's incorruptible seed, your Adamic lineage has been disposed of.

 

[Bill]

Scripture makes it very clear who is a child of the devil...(1 John 3:8-10)


As all are sons of Adam, who was a son of God, you are correct in your posting.
But those men change their status from God's children to the devil's children by their propensity to commit sin..
If you are reborn, of God's incorruptible seed, your Adamic lineage has been disposed of.

My brother, there are many people who do stupid things in thier lifetime. But as long as they are breathing, i will never stop hoping that they may find Jesus. Nothing is impossible with God.

Look at the thief on the cross, just before his death he found Salvation.

If God is so merciful to that man, who am i to condemn anyone. If i condemn, then it is i who judge. Not God

 

[amadeus2]

When the reborn read this they are assured they can live without sin.
Isn't that the point of repentance...to turn from sin?

But for each of the question remains: Are some people really born again [born from above, born of God] when they think they are or when they say that they are?
This is really perhaps the point of contention for many, isn't it? People can really repent [turn from sin] for to believe otherwise is to call Jesus a liar.

Whether or not a person is instantaneously placed into a state of sinlessness when he receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is another question. I don't believe that it is usually an instantaneous occurrence although it could be. If it is not instantaneous at the first moment of repentance this does not mean the person can never be fully repentant of all that he needs to be... at least while he still has time.

What God has provided as I see it is all that a person need to become sinless. The reason many people fall short on this is not because it is impossible for God but because they say it is impossible while they remain in this fleshly vessel. This is what I have called a "negative faith".

In the following verse Jesus healed some blind men but he used some very significant words:

"Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you." Matt 9:29

"According to your faith be it unto you" is saying what we really believe is what is going to happen... or NOT. If a person does not believe that God can stop even this corrupted vessel from committing sin, to me that is a negative faith and truly we will not be able to stop committing sin

If we have not really repented for everything, then it would seem to me that we are not yet fully born again. Can a person be partially born? Ask the natural mothers if it is possible for the birth of the natural child to be delayed.

No, just that you are still a child of the devil.

When the devil is our father then it is the devil that we are obeying or following. When we are a child of God then it is not God we are obeying or following? Can a natural child disobey the natural parent without being disinherited or without becoming an Illegitimate child?

What do these verses mean?

"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Heb 12:7-8

I understand that there is a point where a father might disinherit his biological child, but if he really loves the child he would be very slow to go so far...

Repentance from sin is still available to them though...thanks be to God.

Repentance is a possibility until there is no more time for it. Does not God determine how much time each of us has? Consider Esau:

"Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." Heb 12:16-17

Does that mean that Esau has run out of time?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

My friend, hug your brother. Apology and acceptance are what is most important here.

Very true but I have no aught against him.

 

[Bill]

Very true but I have no aught against him.

It is true that you dont. But still hug him.