Is there a limit to God's forgiveness?

[B-A-C]

I will never leave you or forsake you. There are few verses more quoted out of context than this one.

Heb 13:5; Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"
Heb 13:6; so that we confidently say, "THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID. WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?"

This verse starts off talking about being "free from the love of money" and being content with what you have.
This is similar to the end of Matthew 6.

Matt 6:26; "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?
Matt 6:27; "And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life?
Matt 6:28; "And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin,
Matt 6:29; yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these.
Matt 6:30; "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
Matt 6:31; "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
Matt 6:32; "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
Matt 6:33; "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Matt 6:34; "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Just like in Hebrews, it's saying don't put your faith in money, God will take care of you. He won't leave you or forsake you.

... for He Himself has said .... Where did He say this? In the new testament? No you won't find it anywhere else in the new testament.

Deut 31:6; "Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or tremble at them, for the LORD your God is the one who goes with you. He will not fail you or forsake you."
Deut 31:8; "The LORD is the one who goes ahead of you; He will be with you. He will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed."

God was with the Jews while they were fleeing Egypt and wandering through the desert. He never left them or forsook them.
He took care of them. He fed them manna. He made sure their clothes and sandals never wore out.

Deut 29:5; "I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot.
Deut 8:4; "Your clothing did not wear out on you, nor did your foot swell these forty years.
Exod 16:4; Then the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may test them, whether or not they will walk in My instruction.
Exod 16:14; When the layer of dew evaporated, behold, on the surface of the wilderness there was a fine flake-like thing, fine as the frost on the ground.
Exod 16:15; When the sons of Israel saw it, they said to one another, "What is it?" For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, "It is the bread which the LORD has given you to eat.

They had no reason to "love money". God was with them. He made sure they were clothed and fed.... for forty years!!!
But yet, even though God never left them or forsook them....

Neh 9:9; "You saw the affliction of our fathers in Egypt, And heard their cry by the Red Sea.
Neh 9:10; "Then You performed signs and wonders against Pharaoh, Against all his servants and all the people of his land; For You knew that they acted arrogantly toward them, And made a name for Yourself as it is this day.

Neh 9:12; "And with a pillar of cloud You led them by day, And with a pillar of fire by night To light for them the way In which they were to go.
Neh 9:15; "You provided bread from heaven for them for their hunger, You brought forth water from a rock for them for their thirst, And You told them to enter in order to possess The land which You swore to give them.

and yet even though God did all of this for them, and was with them, and provided for them...

Neh 9:16; "But they, our fathers, acted arrogantly; They became stubborn and would not listen to Your commandments.
Neh 9:17; "They refused to listen, And did not remember Your wondrous deeds which You had performed among them; So they became stubborn and appointed a leader to return to their slavery in Egypt. But You are a God of forgiveness, Gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness; And You did not forsake them.
Neh 9:18; "Even when they made for themselves A calf of molten metal And said, 'This is your God Who brought you up from Egypt,' And committed great blasphemies,

Even though all of this God did not forsake them.

Neh 9:19; You, in Your great compassion, Did not forsake them in the wilderness; The pillar of cloud did not leave them by day, To guide them on their way, Nor the pillar of fire by night, to light for them the way in which they were to go.
Neh 9:20; "You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst.
Neh 9:21; "Indeed, forty years You provided for them in the wilderness and they were not in want; Their clothes did not wear out, nor did their feet swell.

Neh 9:28; "But as soon as they had rest, they did evil again before You; Therefore You abandoned them to the hand of their enemies, so that they ruled over them. When they cried again to You, You heard from heaven, And many times You rescued them according to Your compassion
Neh 9:31; "Nevertheless, in Your great compassion You did not make an end of them or forsake them, For You are a gracious and compassionate God.

Even though God never left them or forsook them, they left Him many times and forsook Him many times.

Neh 9:35; "But they, in their own kingdom, With Your great goodness which You gave them, With the broad and rich land which You set before them, Did not serve You or turn from their evil deeds.

The bottom line here is... even though God was with them, even though He never left them or forsook them, they forsook Him!
He never left them for the forty years they were in the wilderness (and even past this time) but they made a golden calf. They grumbled.
As a result of this 23,000 of them were killed in one day!! No one from that generation made it into the "promised land".

Just because God never leaves you or forsakes you is no guarantee that you will make it to the "promised land".

 

[Curtis]

Php 2:12; So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Paul at this time was in prison, and all of the Church's that he was connected to wrote to him asking him questions about what to do about certain things. (1 Cor 7:1) This letter was written to the Philippian Church from prison addressing some of their concerns. Paul knew his life was coming to a end, and he would not be around to answer their questions, so he tells them this........

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Paul was NOT telling them that salvation had to be worked for, because that is totally contrary the New Testament. He was telling them any problems they might have, and any questions they might have in the future can be discovered on their own. (work out their own salvation) because the same God that was in Paul was also working in them both to will, and to do of his (God's) good pleasure.

 

[Curtis]

1 Pet 1:6; In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
1 Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Our faith isn't just what we say. Our faith is what we we do. Faith itself is a work. How we act, and the choices we make when we are going
through trials is what "proves" our faith.

1John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Why would our faith overcome this world? Because our faith came from Jesus. It is his faith, and he has already overcome this world!!!

 

[Curtis]

The bottom line here is... even though God was with them, even though He never left them or forsook them, they forsook Him!
He never left them for the forty years they were in the wilderness (and even past this time) but they made a golden calf. They grumbled.
As a result of this 23,000 of them were killed in one day!! No one from that generation made it into the "promised land".

Just because God never leaves you or forsakes you is no guarantee that you will make it to the "promised land".

The Old Testament, and the New Testament are no where near the same. The Old Testament required "works", the New Testament is based on grace through faith. No one in the Old Testament were born again, and raised up with Christ into his Heavenly Kingdom. We are!!! We have already been translated into the Kingdom of his dear Son. This is NOT someday in the future, it is past tense!!!

 

[B-A-C]

It's OUR faith that God works through. God can do anything, but He doesn't always unless we have the faith.

Matt 9:22; But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
Matt 9:29; Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
Matt 15:28; Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

Matt 17:19; Afterward the disciples asked Jesus privately, "Why couldn't we cast out that demon?"
Matt 17:20; And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Mark 2:5; And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
Mark 5:34; And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your affliction."
Mark 10:52; And Jesus said to him, "Go; your faith has made you well." Immediately he regained his sight and began following Him on the road.
Luke 5:20; Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."
Luke 7:50; And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Luke 8:48; And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace."
Luke 17:19; And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith has made you well."
Luke 18:42; And Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has made you well."

It wasn't Jesus's faith that made any of those things happen. It was their faith.
In fact when we don't have faith...

Matt 13:58; And so He did only a few miracles there because of their unbelief.

Was it Jesus who didn't have enough faith... or was it the people who didn't have faith?

 

[B-A-C]

The Old Testament, and the New Testament are no where near the same.

So God lied in the old testament, but he doesn't lie in the new testament? If this is true then why use Heb 13:5; since it's a quote from the
old testament?

 

[Born Again 2004]

Both. You can't be saved without faith in Jesus, but you also can't be saved if you're continuing to live in sin.

God bless you BAC, no one said it was alright to live in Sin!

Our faith isn't just what we say. Our faith is what we we do. Faith itself is a work. How we act, and the choices we make when we are going
through trials is what "proves" our faith.

We will just have to agree to disagree: I believe that once you are truly "Born Again", there is no turning back. God said he would never leave or forsake us. Faith, IS NOT something we produce or generate, it is a GIFT from God, If it is truly a gift , as he says it is, it is free, not earned!!

 

[Curtis]

So God lied in the old testament, but he doesn't lie in the new testament? If this is true then why use Heb 13:5; since it's a quote from the
old testament?

Both the Old, and New Testament are based on two different things, one is "works" the other is on grace by faith. How we get the results of salvation are different, even though they promise the same thing.

 

[Born Again 2004]

So God lied in the old testament, but he doesn't lie in the new testament? If this is true then why use Heb 13:5; since it's a quote from the
old testament?

That's right, in the New Testament, there is a "New" Covenant. Like any contract , it supersedes any previous contract!!!
You like to live in the Old Testament , here is a prophecy by Jeremiah some 2700 years ago:

• Jeremiah 31:31-34

31 The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.

• Jesus fulfilled the "LAW" and ended the Old Testament, when he died and ushered in the New Covenant!

 

[Hekuran]

The Old Testament, and the New Testament are no where near the same. The Old Testament required "works", the New Testament is based on grace through faith. No one in the Old Testament were born again, and raised up with Christ into his Heavenly Kingdom. We are!!! We have already been translated into the Kingdom of his dear Son. This is NOT someday in the future, it is past tense!!!

There's is no hint anywhere I can think of that the old covenant is based on works. Look at the early promises to Abram, for example. Pure grace.

 

[Curtis]

There's is no hint anywhere I can think of that the old covenant is based on works. Look at the early promises to Abram, for example. Pure grace.

I think the Law was in the Old Testament.

Rom_3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal_3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal_3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 

[Hekuran]

I think the Law was in the Old Testament.

Rom_3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal_3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal_3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Paul was dealing with a misunderstanding of the law being applied to the church. The Old Covenant was never never never salvation by works.

 

[Curtis]

Paul was dealing with a misunderstanding of the law being applied to the church. The Old Covenant was never never never salvation by works.

The "Abrahamic Covenant" of faith is separate from the Mosaic Covenant, also know as the Mosaic Law which required works.

 

[Hekuran]

The "Abrahamic Covenant" of faith is separate from the Mosaic Covenant, also know as the Mosaic Law which required works.

I don't think that is accurate. The great momentioned of salvation in the Old Testament was the liberation from slavery in Egypt to the promised land. This was entirely God's work. The law was given as a means to live within God's promise, not as a means to attain it. Read Exodus and Deuteronomy and you will see what I mean.

 

[Born Again 2004]

God's covenants in order:

• God's covenant with Noah
• God' covenant with Abraham
• The Mosaic Covenant
• God's with covenant with David
• The covenant of Christ, the NEW Covenant

By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:13

 

[B-A-C]

And yet... we are told over 10 times in the new testament to "keep the commandments". There are nearly three times more verses about this,
than being "saved by grace". (and no verses at all about grace "alone").

Mat 5:19; "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Joh 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Joh 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
Joh 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1 Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 Jn 5:2; By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
Rev 12:17; So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev 14:12; Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

vs four verses that say...

Acts 15:11; "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
Eph 2:5; even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 1:9; who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

So how do we reconcile this? Just go with the side you like.... (nobodies minds ever get changed during these debates, most likely because
don't have enough love when explaining this things.... myself included)
There are a couple of ways...

First it may be that works isn't obeying the commandments.
Second, it may be that the law was split up different ways, civil law, ceremonial laws, and moral laws. The moral laws still apply according to Jesus.
Third, it may also be that there is a before and after.... we don't get saved by obeying the law. We don't have the desire or ability before we saved.
But after we saved, we should have the desire... and our ability should get better with practice. You may still sometimes, but hopefully you aren't
still doing all of the sins you were doing before you got saved as often as you were before.
Grace is for the repentant... ONLY for the repentant. Not for those who turn it into a license to sin.

 

[Born Again 2004]

And yet... we are told over 10 times in the new testament to "keep the commandments". There are nearly three times more verses about this,
than being "saved by grace". (and no verses at all about grace "alone").

So!
James said: For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10
Sure we are to "keep the Commandments" but like me you are not perfect and you will eventually stumble and screw up one of the commandments....what then? Are you now not saved.....NO, Jesus is not going to leave you over a mess-up because you are human and you where already saved by grace alone and nothing else! If I where you, I would be sure in my heart that Jesus is there!
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
2 Corinthians 13:5

 

[B-A-C]

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

So what is this test to see if Christ is in us?

1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and Christ in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[Born Again 2004]

So what is this test to see if Christ is in us?

1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and Christ in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

• One should not look to his works for assurance of salvation, he should look to Christ, the object of our faith!
• I have known you for a LONG time and we will just have to disagree on some fundamentals of works, faith and salvation.
• You want to justify Christ in you by following his commandments, I know and showed you that, in the New Covenant, if you fail to keep just one commandment, you have failed all of them but, you ignore that! Neither of the verses above, nor any you can find, mean or say to do it perfectly.
• Jesus explained this under the , New Covenant, when he mentioned Adultery...a commandment of the old law...DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY!!!! but Jesus, now says: But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28

• I applaud you if you keep this commandment( and all others) perfectly , 24/7, for your entire life!! But many a Christian, may want to follow this commandments but, I dare any can keep all of them perfectly all the time....one slip and , I guess according to you, they loose their salvation! ...If you do not feel this way, then your constant bombardment of keeping his commandments is a false premise!
• I can't say about you but , I know Jesus is in me and, as much as I love his commandments, I am not conceited enough to think I can keep them perfectly all the time. I know he has already forgiven me for that and is there to remind me and help me through those times.
• No disrespect but, I think I may feel sorry for you!

 

[B-A-C]

You want to justify Christ in you by following his commandments, I know and showed you that, in the New Covenant, if you fail to keep just one commandment, you have failed all of them but, you ignore that! Neither of the verses above, nor any you can find, mean or say to do it perfectly.

On the contrary. This where grace comes in. Grace doesn't end when you become a Christian. That's when grace starts!!
None of us can keep the commandments perfectly. But we are supposed to try. When we quit trying, that's when we fall short of the grace of God.

Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Heb 10:29; How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The Bible warns about those "who have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant" and then trample it, who willfully choose to keep on sinning.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

It warns about those who have been enlightened, who have tasted the good word of God.. and have even been partakers of the Holy Spirit...
and then fall away. They can't be renewed "again" to repentance. (You can't repent "again" unless you already repented once).
You can't crucify Jesus "again" unless you've already crucified Him once.

I can't say about you but , I know Jesus is in me and, as much as I love his commandments, I am not conceited enough to think I can keep them perfectly all the time. I know he has already forgiven me for that and is there to remind me and help me through those times.

He forgives you as long as you are repentant and keep trying. I can't keep them perfectly either. Thank God for grace.