Good morrow people

[amadeus2]

I am asking questions of Christians who appear to be the same ilk as my late parents, who believed in the mantra 'you must get 'saved' of go to hell'. I got 'saved' when I was 11 to spare myself that fate. I even tried to be devout for a time, but never had any feeling a god existed. When the doubts became too overwhelming I lost my faith and haven't missed it. However I do challenge the nastiness of the dogma which threatens people with hell when there is no verifiable evidence any god exists. The Bible is NOT verifiable evidence, in my opinion.

My friend, what is verifiable evidence? Should we presume that what we apparently perceive with the five natural senses is real? Why?

How do you convince a person who was born blind that there is such a thing as light?

I do have evidence which to me has been verified that God is real, but the evidence would not be acceptable to someone like you. Have you considered that you might in this respect be blind?

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings @amadeus2

Have you ever been caught out looking so much for something that is right in front of you?

It doesn't mean you're blind! Sometimes I can't see for looking!!!

Bless you ....><>

 

[Tomorrowandtomorrow]

If God exists why does he play silly games with humans and not make his existence clear to all without a shadow of a doubt. But maybe that is how he gets his kicks, of course!

 

[Chad]

New If God exists why does he play silly games with humans and not make his existence clear to all without a shadow of a doubt. But maybe that is how he gets his kicks, of course!

See, when you make childish comments like this you're not going to experience GOD at all. Try taking off your pride hat and be teachable. Do you really expect anyone to minister to you with this kind of attitude? Everything you've said is wrong and simply uneducated. I said before, you're not willing to learn.

 

[JohnP]

If God exists why does he play silly games with humans and not make his existence clear to all without a shadow of a doubt. But maybe that is how he gets his kicks, of course!

The answers to all of your questions can be found in the Bible. Romans Chapter 1 covers many of them.

“He who through faith is righteous shall live.” (Romans 1:17) If God were to just make His physical presence known as you suggest, then how would there be faith? I don't need faith to know that President Obama exists. I have seen him. And God will be revealed to us all at some point. Jesus Christ is coming back, and all eyes will see Him. Until then, we demonstrate our love and belief through faith.

Please humor me and read this next paragraph. It is Romans 1, verses 19 - 25:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen."

There is your explanation.

You stated that you were saved when you were young because you were afraid of going to hell. I have one final verse for you to read -

"because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)

Perhaps, you didn't really "believe in your heart" as is required? What if you were just scared of going to hell? Only you know the answer to that, but would you consider it?

God bless you, friend. Whether or not you believe it, Jesus loves you very much. I'm sorry that you had to grow up listening to "fire & brimstone" constantly. That's not the reason one should accept Jesus. One should do if for love. The love and peace that comes with believing in Jesus can't even be described.

 

[Christ4Ever]

If God exists why does he play silly games with humans and not make his existence clear to all without a shadow of a doubt. But maybe that is how he gets his kicks, of course!

Contrary to the perceived indifference He has of our condition and how you believe he might get "his Kicks" from playing hide and seek. The reality is very much different. He made it so plain for us. How so you might ask? He manifested Himself in the flesh to die a humiliating criminals death on the Cross for those who have no love for Him. Think that would be plain enough? Nope. Jesus had a great parable before He was crucified, in which these words ring out to me when someone says there is no God. "...neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Sadly, not even then.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings again @amadeus2

I was on the phone a short while ago and discussing some legal issues with someone in authority. I took some notes and as the discussion continued, I began looking for my pencil. I looked through pages and behind me, under where I was sitting, in front of me... all around, but couldn't find it! Next I did what many do when puzzled, I went to scratch my head and Ahhh! there was my pencil, behind my ear! I exclaimed my delight and also my stupidity to the person I was discussing matters with all he laughed. I said, "Don't laugh. You'll get older one day!" To which he replied that he was laughing because he had done the same thing not so long ago.
I immediately thought of you and this thread and hence why I'm telling you now.

Bless you ....><>

 

[Tomorrowandtomorrow]

Contrary to the perceived indifference He has of our condition and how you believe he might get "his Kicks" from playing hide and seek. The reality is very much different. He made it so plain for us. How so you might ask? He manifested Himself in the flesh to die a humiliating criminals death on the Cross for those who have no love for Him. Think that would be plain enough? Nope. Jesus had a great parable before He was crucified, in which these words ring out to me when someone says there is no God. "...neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Sadly, not even then.

I don't believe Jesus died for any reason but the fact he irritated the religious mafia of the day. I think the stuff attributed to the guy was concocted by his followers. Besides which he was far from perfect anyway if some of the deeds attributed to Jesus had an validity!

If God created us, he is responsible for human nature and the buck stops with him, not us.

I believe the Biblical deity is a human construct as it seems to have all the worst of human failings, no doubt with the idea that our god is bigger than yours. We are responsible for our own actions for better or for worse, and no deity is going to ride to the rescue.

The idea of residing in 'heaven' with the Biblical version of God, would be worse than being in hell with much maligned Satan. When people die I am of the opinion they cease to be.

Of course I could have got it all wrong, so I better stock up on asbestos clothing for when I am chucked into the fires of hell, LOL!

But as there is no evidence to support any of the fanciful stories in the Bible the default position is unbelief, imo!

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

May I say that to me you appear to have some belief, based on what you have written?
Without going too far into the fire, so to speak, you talk (write, yes, but for the sake of discussion over the internet may I use the term, talk?) about belief / unbelief and your opinion which could also be said to be that which you are persuaded of and / or have decided or chosen.

Yes, if there be no god and the Bible is incorrect, then you live and die.
I personally get a bit stuck when being agnostic or atheist wth the idea or concept or fancy of morals, which results in zero guilt affordable to any man no matter what he does to anyone or any creature or any other part of this planet and consider that to get upset about anything beyond our personal survival is folly fit fit weaklings.
Do you fit into that category? Or, do you stand by your conviction and not give a care about anything because doing so would imply a portion of hypocrisy?
I say this with no personal vendetta against you but purely in order to call a spade a spade. We either have morals which are totally unexplainable without a source or we don't.
Love of course is a pathetic delusion and children have some use only if they can benefit and gratify our prioritization of need.
Animals are likewise of no concern and again, according to our benefit have no rights to moral standards or rules. Which leads us to killing any and all that get in our way and forgetting any notion of mercy being of the slightest concern. The environment is worth protecting for survival reasons but if we really get serious about being a species with no god then we certainly wouldn't have much to study as learning would not go beyond simple tribal behavioural lessons.

May I suggest that before you say too much more about your aversion to God that you take some time to research a bit about where advancement has always stemmed from and to consider such people groups around the world who have never done anything much more than survive and have been discovered in the same 'primitive' state that they always have been known to exist in.

Thanks for reading and remember that your coming here is your choice but you do so, again, knowing that you are addressing people who have a strange care for you despite everything you might write in disrespect towards them and the LORD Whom they love.

Bless you ....><>

 

[Tomorrowandtomorrow]

Of course I don't have to post on this forum and no doubt if I upset too many of the 'faithful' I will be banned. Sadly many 'born again' Biblical literalists accept it all without any question.

I consider myself an agnostic, it is possible a god of some sort could exist in another dimension, but I am of the opinion that all the religions adhered to by humans are created by them, including Christianity. Both Islam and Christianity have nothing much of which to be proud about having caused so much damage over the centuries.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings again,

Ahh yes, the religions adhered to by humans!

I thoroughly agree, much disgraceful and unbenevolent behavior justifying vain and often repulsive intent and professed virtue to the point that one might justly be or feel ashamed to be a part of the human race.

Are you from the U.K.?
What a complete and utter mixed up, messed up history such a small isle has had while seething with such pride in pompous pretense, again, leaving any conscientious soul disgusted and ashamed.

However, not only is this standard the world over and repeated throughout history, what of me? Or you?
How much better do we deal out justice and mercy and how humble are we, while restraining not nor hesitating for a moment to not only protect our position and property and to throw stones or spears at all who we flippantly decree to be substandard to our own self made righteousness?

Do we reap all that we sow and do we desire that others who sow in wicked ways reap at least fully a measure of retribution and repay indefinitely for their pernicious ways?

Welcome to TalkJesus. Enjoy your time here and feel free to contribute some positive points and to share the love that you know with us all.

While you have your doubts and concerns, which I understand quite well, please do your best to be the example that you would like everyone else to be.

Bless you ....><>

 

[Tomorrowandtomorrow]

I wasn't born in the UK but moved here 46 years ago when I married. It might not be perfect, but I wouldn't live anywhere else. I am so grateful I don't live across the pond where right-wing religionists seem to have polluted the US political system with their evil nonsense.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings again,

46 years! You're nearly a local!!

I don't know anything about the right wing religionists you mention but if they're right then doesn't that mean they're not wrong?

Words.

Like I said before, the problem is world wide both in nations and individuals.
Getting all upset about what might be trendy to some won't give you any peace.

Do you have any good recipes you can share? There's a section here at TalkJesus where you can do things like that.
Look around and tread gently.

Bless you ....><>

 

[amadeus2]

Greetings @amadeus2

Have you ever been caught out looking so much for something that is right in front of you?

It doesn't mean you're blind! Sometimes I can't see for looking!!!

Bless you ....><>

Yes, my friend, I am an all too frequent one to be caught by my own failure to use that which I do have. I can see insofar as the natural eyes go, but often my ability to 'look' falls short. On the vision thing I always 'look' to this verse:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he." Prov 29:18

Having a "vision" as I see it has little or nothing to do with the two orbs positioned below our foreheads. People die for lack of "vision".

As for those of us that do have such a vision:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

The "face to face" should be drawing closer...

 

[amadeus2]

Greetings again @amadeus2

I was on the phone a short while ago and discussing some legal issues with someone in authority. I took some notes and as the discussion continued, I began looking for my pencil. I looked through pages and behind me, under where I was sitting, in front of me... all around, but couldn't find it! Next I did what many do when puzzled, I went to scratch my head and Ahhh! there was my pencil, behind my ear! I exclaimed my delight and also my stupidity to the person I was discussing matters with all he laughed. I said, "Don't laugh. You'll get older one day!" To which he replied that he was laughing because he had done the same thing not so long ago.
I immediately thought of you and this thread and hence why I'm telling you now.

Bless you ....><>

I have caught myself and usually chuckle. My wife catches me and for her it is a real belly laugh and I have over the years I have learned to join with her. Being laughed at can hurt a person but we need to move on toward God no matter what pain we may be feeling in the here and now. No matter what some may think, we do serve a wondrous God.

 

[amadeus2]

If God exists why does he play silly games with humans and not make his existence clear to all without a shadow of a doubt. But maybe that is how he gets his kicks, of course!

Why indeed? Are they games or could it be that we as created beings do not always understand as much as we believe we do?

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" Numbers 23:19

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Isaiah 55:8-9

 

[Tomorrowandtomorrow]

The cop out position when it comes to the disgusting behaviour of the deity featured in the Bible!

 

[amadeus2]

The cop out position when it comes to the disgusting behaviour of the deity featured in the Bible!

Call it "cop out" because it doesn't fit what you think God should be or because you do not understand it. The explanations required are available, not from me ( although He might use a person) but from God. Should God be required to explain Himself on demand no matter how the demand is framed?

Rather than considering God, consider yourself and this world of selfish people. When we begin to understand why people are as they are rather than as we think they should be we will perhaps begin to understand God's position. In spite of your words, you really seem to have no interest in understanding but rather in convincing someone that he is wrong.

If there really is an omnipotent, omniscient God, why would His purposes need to fit your prescribed pattern?

 

[Christ4Ever]

I don't believe Jesus died for any reason but the fact he irritated the religious mafia of the day. I think the stuff attributed to the guy was concocted by his followers. Besides which he was far from perfect anyway if some of the deeds attributed to Jesus had an validity!

If God created us, he is responsible for human nature and the buck stops with him, not us.

I believe the Biblical deity is a human construct as it seems to have all the worst of human failings, no doubt with the idea that our god is bigger than yours. We are responsible for our own actions for better or for worse, and no deity is going to ride to the rescue.

The idea of residing in 'heaven' with the Biblical version of God, would be worse than being in hell with much maligned Satan. When people die I am of the opinion they cease to be.

Of course I could have got it all wrong, so I better stock up on asbestos clothing for when I am chucked into the fires of hell, LOL!

But as there is no evidence to support any of the fanciful stories in the Bible the default position is unbelief, imo!

You know that what you don't believe about the death of Jesus goes against Historical record. We can always create what we believe to be true, but it should have some backing besides personal belief especially when there is evidence to the contrary.

You say that "stuff attributed to the guy was concocted by his followers.". Like what? It's easy to say that this or that was made up, but when you take into account that the very ones that you would accuse of doing so, would have had to willingly die for something they knew was a lie. Liars normally look for a "gain" factor when doing so. Makes the acceptance of credibility lean rather heavily on their side against the doubters. Won't you say?

We have a tendency to think of these men and women as somehow having some ulterior motive for doing what they did. Yet, these motives whatever they may be and you can list them, would really be out of character of who they were before they knew Jesus, and even afterwards when one looks at their lives and how they spoke and behaved as followers of Jesus.

These were average folks. Fishermen, tax collectors (the lowest in the scale of society of the day). Even women! I say "even women" because in their day, women were not allowed to give evidence in court. Equality was diffidently not part of the judicial system in that day. A man driven society. Makes one wonder why God would have the women be the first witnesses of Jesus' resurrection knowing they were not considered valid witness' for the day.

I'd write more, but currently I'm at work on my lunch. So, I'll have to get back to you on putting the blame on God for us being how we are as well as residential living in the after life. Like Paul once said. If the resurrection didn't happen and Jesus is not alive. Then we might as well eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die...........

Talk later. Back to work!!!
C4E
<><

 

[Chad]

New The cop out position when it comes to the disgusting behaviour of the deity featured in the Bible!

But you already made it clear in your many posts you don't believe in the Bible or GOD, yet somehow this is a "cop out" of the behavior of the deity? Coming from you, who came and willfully registered on this Christian site to air your opinions.

Do you honestly think you can persuade believers here that GOD doesn't exist? What's your intentions here? Do you realize how you come off every time you post? You need to search your heart, stop pretending and stop hating on GOD because of whatever experiences you've had. GOD is not responsible for your pain, but He is willing to forgive your sins and heal your wounds whatever they might be.