Churches greatest threat

[Grace]

I know satan is the greatest threat to the church, but in what way do you believe is his greatest strategy?

I believe satan wants a dead church. I comfortable, self sufficient peaceful church!
How do we spot a dead church?
Do they ignore the Holy Spirit?
Is there lack of Godly leadership?
Do they value reputation over reality?
Is there a growth in number without the growth of the people?
How do we eleminate the spirit of religion in ourselves and our church?

 

[Grace]

I do believe that one way we recognize a dead church is that is is full of man's religion and not the Spirit of God. Man can not control the Holy Spirit because it goes where He wishes...not man's wishes.

 

[B-A-C]

I do believe that one way we recognize a dead church is that is is full of man's religion and not the Spirit of God. Man can not control the Holy Spirit because it goes where He wishes...not man's wishes.

True there are dead churches.

Rev 3:1; “To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
Rev 3:2; Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.
Rev 3:3; So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Rev 3:4; But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5; He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Rev 3:6; He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Some are full of dead faith.

James 2:14; James 2:17; James 2:24; James 2:26;

Some merely call themselves Christians although their lifestyle denies it.

Titus 1:16; 1 Cor 5:9-13; Matt 7:21-23;

I'm not sure we are any less susceptible on any part of it. I think Satan attacks us equally on all fronts.

 

[Grace]

True, Sardis was a dead church! Funny how it seemed to be a busy church with a good name. They seem to be so caught up in their reputation they did not even realize they were dead.
I am thankful that our church is a place we meet God. Worship brings His presence. I do not believe there is a perfect church...but we should never settle for anything less than His presence!

 

[B-A-C]

Less than a minute after reading your reply I found a news article about Ophrah Winfrey's Christian advisor.
Christian Pastor Rob Bell says Christians should ignore the Bible so we can remain relevant in today's society.
Of course this is the same guy who wrote "Love Wins" which says there really is no hell or eternal punishment.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

1Peter 1:3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in Whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith,even the salvation of your souls.

Faith without works is dead.

Keep the faith.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Bless you ....><>

 

[Dovegiven]

Hoping I am very wrong about it, but deadness seems to be a symptom of mostly neglect of reading, studying and meditating over the Word frequently every day. It's made very convenient to do, having all sorts of Bible apps on cell phones. I have chosen all along to read it at every opportunity, not at all connected to Facebook, Twitter like all around me.I'm one of THEM". Nowadays very few sermons are based on more than a verse, but with many comments." Social gospel". That having no power to get people saved, entertainment seems to be taking a primary role. But even that isn't moving people to even smile. Phil Driscoll came by playing his trumpet for us, with a great gospel message in between playing and singing, moving me to tears.By the time he was finished half the congregation had slipped out, less than a dozen people thanking him for his ministry to us. Comments leaving? "Who was that old dinosaur?" "He talked too much."

I stopped teaching Sunday School anywhere they tell me beforehand to "Just read the quarterly lesson to them, they don't like doing the Bible thing so much." No questions, no comments, nodding off, pecking on their phones. Now all the little churches have a preacher, so I'm not doing that either, except talking to them by Messenger to help sort out their sermons. Most can't prepare a sermon, and not one has demonstrated preaching impromptu straight from their Bible. I am praying for a living church to arise here, like the one we really love 5 hours away, Faith Life Church in Branson MO. I've witnessed Bro Keith preach like the old times with power.

I'm putting the word "apathy" as the greatest danger to the Church.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

I know satan is the greatest threat to the church, but in what way do you believe is his greatest strategy?

In my opinion, I would say that satan's greatest weapon is the theory of evolution. he has convinced nearly the entire world that it is true, and once you accept that genesis is not reliable then you deny the entirety of the bible, and everything becomes flimsy and open for liberal interpretation. many people go to college and become atheists because of the theory of evolution, many people go to bible college and become atheists because even bible colleges are teaching it these days. many people accept homosexuality because they accept evolution, many people deny satan and hell because of evolution. many people are universalists because of evolution. i could go on and on. i think evolution is a big, big deal that has much more damage to the church than anyone realizes. it cuts away the foundation of the bible.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

There are so many but I feel "performance based acceptance" causes many to reject grace and believe that they are accepted because they
did something.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
How can you really understand God's mercy without being a total screw up.
1 Corinthians 1:27 God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
1 Corinthians 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
1 Corinthians 1:29 so that no man may boast before God.…

If acceptance is based on our performance then Jesus was of no effect.
It seems to me that our acceptance is based on the work Jesus did as man and as the Lamb.

We do seem to have a role:
John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

I feel I have to be careful not to boast even if I fully believe because that kind of faith would also be his gift of grace.
If I call down God's righteous judgement on an unbelieving world then I am actually calling down his mercy because his wrath was already poured out on his perfect
lamb.


As for the devil,well I have a verse for him to:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

God is so awesome even his enemies unwittingly work for him.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

If I call down God's righteous judgement on an unbelieving world then I am actually calling down his mercy because his wrath was already poured out on his perfect
lamb.

Did Jesus take upon Himself the punishment for everyone?, or only for those who are born-again believers? If He took upon Himself the punishment for everyone, then why isn't everyone going to be saved?

 

[Travis]

Did Jesus take upon Himself the punishment for everyone?

Yes

or only for those who are born-again believers?

No

John 2
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.​

If He took upon Himself the punishment for everyone, then why isn't everyone going to be saved?

People won't be saved because they rejected the only way to salvation, Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

You can't be saved if you don't want to be saved. You can't want to be saved if you don't come into the light. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Travis

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

If we are to interpret that verse literally (that Christ died for the whole world), then the logical conclusion is that the sins of everyone have been paid... and by God's very nature He cannot condemn a sinless person. So the literal interpretation fails in that regard. In my opinion, the meaning is that Christ died for all who will receive Him, regardless of who they are. In that sense, He died for the whole world, and not just one race of people, but for anyone in the entire world who will repent and believe. for example: Jesus prays " I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." (John 17:9 ESV)

 

[Travis]

That's the traditional Calvanist view of things, a "limited atonement."

Personally, I don't think that view holds up to the test of scripture, but I can understand why people do hold to it at least.

Did Jesus Die for Everyone? My Calvinist Friends Say No|Disagree on Doctrines That Do Not Affect Our Salvation|Far More in Common Than Differences

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Did Jesus take upon Himself the punishment for everyone?

Did Adam sin for all? How do you read the scriptures.
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

God sent him to save the world,do you suppose he succeeded?

The term "saved"is kind of generic between denominations so I try to understand scripture itself.
In my 20 some years of study I have come to the conclusion that we don't understand the nature of reality from God's point of view.

Eternity means "no beginning and no end,always was and always will be".
So I think our present concept of heaven and hell is not accurate because it leaves to many conflics with other scripture
Technically you can't begin eternal life or eternal punishment.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Only the one who came from heaven ascends to heaven,Jesus even went so far as to say he was still in heaven at that moment.
According to Eph. chapter 2 we were resurrected with Christ 2000 years ago.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We also have to fit the resurrection in the whole thing and that does not fit the standard idea of going to heaven or hell after death.

John 6:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

You can't be saved if you don't want to be saved. You can't want to be saved if you don't come into the light. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
That may also be beyond our ability,actually I thinks believing is a gift of faith that no man may boast.

John 6:64"But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

I don't believe we have a choice in the matter,I know I didn't.

 

[Travis]

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
That may also be beyond our ability,actually I thinks believing is a gift of faith that no man may boast.

John 6:64"But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

I don't believe we have a choice in the matter,I know I didn't.

These scriptures are 100% true.

Fatalism is a deadly trap to fall into though. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. I think we will understand these things much better on the other side of eternity.

Travis

 

[B-A-C]

Of course even ALL men have been "granted to come to the Father".
Also He draws ALL of us unto Him.. some simply choose not to accept Him.

2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Rev 3:20; 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Fatalism is a deadly trap to fall into though. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. I think we will understand these things much better on the other side of eternity.

Yes we are on the wrong side of the tracks.
I think the misunderstandings come from mixing temporal information with eternal information.
It looks completely different from the other side of the tracks.
What is reality,what my eyes see or what God says?
Let every man be a liar but let God be true.

Scripture says the kingdom of heaven is within you.
Jesus went to prepare a place for you so that where he is you may be also.
He also said if we love him and obey his commands that he and the Father would take up residence in you.
So you are the place he is preparing for you.
The pattern I see here is that time and space is something God made.
He can make adjustments to the beginning at any(our) time because to him the end and the beginning are the same.
He even knows everything that didn't happen because from out of time you have time to be everywhere and everything and exhaust every combination of every possibility and it all would be instant because there is no time and space unless God designs it from outside of itself.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Of course even ALL men have been "granted to come to the Father".
Also He draws ALL of us unto Him.. some simply choose not to accept Him.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
It doesn't actually say ALL but I would have to agree with you because God is love and love would not exclude anyone permanently.

But if only some choose to believe
wouldn't that give them boasting rights?
And wouldn't those who had never seen love or any good in their life have more boasting rights
due to the fact that they believed even though they could not see?

Saul's conversion was initiated entirely by God so he had no bragging rights and it does not at all fit the generic "get saved" model.
The conversion of Cornelius's household doesn't fit the model either,the holy Spirit fell as soon as Peter began to speak.
Everyone in that house was saved without having a clue what saved meant or what they were being saved from.
Cornelius had more bragging rights than anyone because an angel moved on his behalf because his piousness got someones attention.

Jesus said if he be lifted up he would draw ALL men unto him so the same questions arise.
Does he fail to draw some because they are more stubborn?
Does he draw some more powerfully than others?

I think diligence demands that we search for truth and not settle for doctrines that raise more questions than they answer.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Did Adam sin for all? How do you read the scriptures.
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

God sent him to save the world,do you suppose he succeeded?



The term "saved"is kind of generic between denominations so I try to understand scripture itself.
In my 20 some years of study I have come to the conclusion that we don't understand the nature of reality from God's point of view.

Eternity means "no beginning and no end,always was and always will be".
So I think our present concept of heaven and hell is not accurate because it leaves to many conflics with other scripture
Technically you can't begin eternal life or eternal punishment.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Only the one who came from heaven ascends to heaven,Jesus even went so far as to say he was still in heaven at that moment.
According to Eph. chapter 2 we were resurrected with Christ 2000 years ago.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We also have to fit the resurrection in the whole thing and that does not fit the standard idea of going to heaven or hell after death.

John 6:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

I think it is important to interpret scripture with scripture. When Jesus says that He did not come to condemn, that is true because the world was already condemned before He came. Jesus came to save, not to condemn. There was no reason for Him to come to condemn, because everyone was already condemned by their own actions. I think what Jesus is doing when He says that He was not sent into the world to condemn the world is addressing a criticism that humans make against Him, that unless He came into the world that they would not be guilty because they would not have known any better. Also, I am sure you know of people who hate Jesus because they do not like the fact that those who do not believe are condemned. Many people view Jesus as someone who condemns everyone who does not believe in Him. But thats not it at all, everyone is already condemned, Jesus doesn't come to condemn people who are already condemned, He came to save.

Now, did death come to all men because of Adam? Well, death entered the world through Adam's sin, but if anyone lived a sinless life then God would have to raise them from the dead and that person would not need Jesus. They would be self-justified. So, no, death does not come to the whole world because of Adam's sin, death comes to the world because of the world's sin. But death did enter the world through Adam's sin. There's a big difference.

Now, lets put the words of Jesus into context. You quoted only John 3:17, but lets look at John 3:17-19. He said

"God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son."

So we see that Jesus clearly does not mean the WHOLE world, but only those in the world who believe in Him.


Now, is hell eternal? Well, first of all, I think you are doing way way way way too much over analyzing, and you need to just take scripture as plainly written. God didnt assume that we were able to understand the things He understands, no, He knows our limitations in understanding and He is able to tell us the truth in a way we can understand. Remember, God cannot lie. So He wouldnt lie about heaven or hell. They are not merely inner states of being, although that is part of the idea, they are also real places that really exist outside this universe and really last forever. One last thing before I get into some scripture...... i would suggest that you study the greek.

Now lets take a look at the story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus. If you need some context, the text is found in luke 16.

“Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side. “The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.’ But Abraham said to him, ‘Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there."

In this text we see the nature of hell. It is a place that souls go to after they die. It is very painful to be there. And once you go there, there is absolutely no way to go to heaven. you are there for good, (for bad), forever.

that should make it very plain and simple to you.

One more example for you, is in Mark 3 Jesus says that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven. He says they are guilty of eternal sin. He uses the same word for eternal that He uses to describe eternal hell and eternal life. So we see that Jesus is clearly teaching that eternal is never ending (because those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven).