Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Churches greatest threat

@TaylorDonBarret You have to make a choice in your heart to stop hoarding wealth before that action takes place, right? The rich man "went away sorrowful" because he realized he'd have to give it up, and when faced with that choice, that's the moment when he realized he valued his things more than eternal life. So a rich man can repent... I just don't think he can stay rich in the worldly sense for very long, lol.

Hosea 4:6 is pretty a succinct answer to this question. I think if we spent more time on our walk with Christ instead of anything and everything else, we would have the faith, virtue and knowledge to defeat the vast majority of the trials we face... we just don't recognize them for what they are and don't even bother fighting back.

True. We are without excuse if rejecting God's knowledge, having the knowledge we need on pages of the Bible, the Lord wanting it to be read frequently, and for us to heed those words. The Jews in Hosea's time didn't have the wonderful benefits we have access to.
 
That may be a fare statement for some, but you can't make a blanket statement for every rich man.
  • Only God knows what is in a man's heart.
  • How do you know that all rich men hoard?
  • What classifies a man as being rich, the government?
  • Does that mean that no "rich man" can be a true Christian?
  • Does that mean that no rich Christian tithes?
  • What if they tithe 10% of their wealth? That is more than the national average, what is enough?

Nobody should fear becoming wealthy for fear of not having eternal life with God. Abraham was possibly the richest man on earth in his time, yet was and is "the friend of God". Many very wealthy people are continually extremely benevolent, major philanthropists, many not even Christians. I know a Christian man that has a staff hired to help him distribute his wealth and manage that problem that tends to become an unbearable burden if such wealth is not handled well. That man has bought everything he ever wanted, now trying to give it away to ministries, but the wealth comes in faster than it can be tracked, all from one great idea. He is likely in a bass boat right now on a lake in Florida, and will be found later visiting a homeless shelter or making sure a women's abuse ministry there is well supplied, and in church whenever the doors are open, and attempting to live as normal a life as possible. He's found a church that lets him just be a regular man of God. He'll walk away from anyone wanting to treat him like a wealthy man. There are actually many more like him. Their problem is God's problem, finding ministers that can handle sudden wealth, so whatever he does is by the Spirit.

When God blesses the way God wants to bless, wealth can be greater than we can manage, forcing us to open the barn doors and let it spill out. Malachi 3:10 (KJV)
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


That promise was not limited to Israel, but to tithers. Tithers will not typically be found to hoard wealth. Would you enjoy going around paying off debts of churches so they can be about the gospel business? Ask the Lord. He does let believers experience more according to how faithful we are with little.
 
I forgot to add, the man in Florida does what Jesus told the rich young ruler to do, but it is immediately replaced. Jesus didn't tell the man to give up his income, become poor to follow him. The Lord wanted the man to not be yoked to his stuff, unable to serve. Many people do come into a big inheritance, not having a way to increase it by working and investing, having no business or job. Fear grips them, then they hoard it. That same fear often results in loss of fortunes, lives, and souls. I read about a lottery winner that sat on his winnings until a relative murdered him for the money. Lives ruined. If folks would do it God's way, Christians could live a very blessed life being a major blessing to many. But too many live in fear of many things.
 
That may be a fare statement for some, but you can't make a blanket statement for every rich man.
  • Only God knows what is in a man's heart.
  • How do you know that all rich men hoard?
  • What classifies a man as being rich, the government?
  • Does that mean that no "rich man" can be a true Christian?
  • Does that mean that no rich Christian tithes?
  • What if they tithe 10% of their wealth? That is more than the national average, what is enough?

this is what i am thinking. Lets say you have a large family and a large home. Your fairly young. So a few million dollars is not going to give you a guaranteed life free of poverty, youll probably need 10-15 million to know for certain that you will never have to worry about money again. And I think I am being extremely generous and liberal when I say that. So, if you have lets say 30 million in the bank.,.. and you know that you only need about 10-15 million to provide your family an exceptionally nice life, then what good is a 10% tithe? 3 million? you still have 12 million in the bank, just sitting there, when you could give that money to a Christian charity and spread the gospel, feed the homeless, put kids in church schools, etc.

I know this is a generalization and God knows the heart. But I am just saying, how can a person be mega rich and Christian?
 
Nobody should fear becoming wealthy for fear of not having eternal life with God. Abraham was possibly the richest man on earth in his time, yet was and is "the friend of God". Many very wealthy people are continually extremely benevolent, major philanthropists, many not even Christians. I know a Christian man that has a staff hired to help him distribute his wealth and manage that problem that tends to become an unbearable burden if such wealth is not handled well. That man has bought everything he ever wanted, now trying to give it away to ministries, but the wealth comes in faster than it can be tracked, all from one great idea. He is likely in a bass boat right now on a lake in Florida, and will be found later visiting a homeless shelter or making sure a women's abuse ministry there is well supplied, and in church whenever the doors are open, and attempting to live as normal a life as possible. He's found a church that lets him just be a regular man of God. He'll walk away from anyone wanting to treat him like a wealthy man. There are actually many more like him. Their problem is God's problem, finding ministers that can handle sudden wealth, so whatever he does is by the Spirit.

When God blesses the way God wants to bless, wealth can be greater than we can manage, forcing us to open the barn doors and let it spill out. Malachi 3:10 (KJV)
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

That promise was not limited to Israel, but to tithers. Tithers will not typically be found to hoard wealth. Would you enjoy going around paying off debts of churches so they can be about the gospel business? Ask the Lord. He does let believers experience more according to how faithful we are with little.
well, i know from my own personal experience before I became I christian, back when I had no knowledge, when i was floating in a sea of sin and uncertainty, searching for God, I didnt know who to fear or what to base my life on. One day I heard the verse "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge", and even though i didnt believe in the bible at the time, i knew the moment i heard that verse that i had discovered a truth. because we are mortals, we live in a cold, dark world filled with death and suffering. no matter who you are, where you live, how old you are, how strong you are, no matter what.... knowledge is finding out how to live in accordance with the power that controls things. Knowledge is agreeing with the power that controls your life, your death, your suffering, your success, your joy, etc. think of it like this... if you dont have any knowledge, then you dont know God. so you are living in a world without God, and therefore you know nothing about God's lovingkindess. You may have even heard about God, but the stuff about his love and grace doesnt sound really as loud as the sound of hell, of satan, of death, of the worldwide flood that drowned millions to death, etc. So you live in a cold, dark world where your natural inclincation is to fear those in power. you fear even life itself. But who is in power? In a world without God, the person who wishes to have knowledge doesnt even know who to fear , because there is no single source of power which can be readily identified as the controller of everything. But knowledge begins when we realize that GOD is in control, and thus fear Him.

I dont think I have explained that very well. i dont think i did. but it was extremely powerful to me and I know that it is foundational to the true faith. not just because it was foundational to mine, but because God Himself has made it known "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge", and Jesus even stressed the importance of fearing 'the one who can cast both body and soul into eternal fire"
 
this is what i am thinking. Lets say you have a large family and a large home. Your fairly young. So a few million dollars is not going to give you a guaranteed life free of poverty, youll probably need 10-15 million to know for certain that you will never have to worry about money again. And I think I am being extremely generous and liberal when I say that. So, if you have lets say 30 million in the bank.,.. and you know that you only need about 10-15 million to provide your family an exceptionally nice life, then what good is a 10% tithe? 3 million? you still have 12 million in the bank, just sitting there, when you could give that money to a Christian charity and spread the gospel, feed the homeless, put kids in church schools, etc.

I know this is a generalization and God knows the heart. But I am just saying, how can a person be mega rich and Christian?
How could Abraham please God through faith while mega rich? I think he understood wealth and understood faith. God let the two conditions persist in his life. He pleased God, and provided for hundreds of people in his camp, having an army to go rescue Lot, defeating several kings and tyrants.

Back to the rich young ruler Jesus spoke with. The Lord didn't tell him to follow poverty, but to sell present goods and give to the poor, then follow. He is not on record saying it's better to be poor, forbidding a person from having more wealth, with which more people can be blessed. Jesus is on record saying it's very hard for a rich person that trusts in his wealth, trusting his money, to enter Heaven.

When wealth climbs to unusual amounts, it becomes harder to disperse it in a holy manner even for the generous Christian. It's very possible that a tithe of millions to a single church could ruin God's work with them concerning faith. It becomes better to make a career of searching out those God wants to bless in answer to specific prayers by the faithful out there. The billionaire could do a community great harm by passing out suitcases of $100 bills to a street lined with poor drug addicts, guaranteeing premature deaths and disabilities. It takes hearing his voice, then doing what he says.

Knowledge of God is vital, but so is knowledge of the world system good too where it comes to having wealth. Fifteen years ago a widow came to work for us that inherited millions from her husband (how many isn't known), and a huge drug company lawsuit over his death. She "went nuts" with the money, gave much out to family and friends, her church, ministries, and requests from folks by letter and phone calls. Investments she didn't know about just disappeared, probably by fraud and neglect. Within about 3 years she was broke, owing a huge amount of taxes, mostly income, lots on property. It was necessary sell everything but her car to reduce debt,moved into a tiny mobile home in the middle of nowhere by herself, to go to work to make a living and pay on her remaining debts. She wouldn't listen to advice even when asking for it. "I know God will guide me, but I just want to know what you would do if....." There's another danger besides trusting in riches, that being not using wisdom in managing it. Not one relative or friend could help her, as all spent their gifts immediately, paying off bills, mortgages, etc. Her church helped fix her car, still helping her now that she is too old and disabled to work. Her sister died, leaving her another smaller inheritance, but that went within weeks. She is still faithful, rides a church bus to and from services.

It's possible to sell what you have, give to the poor, then end up a burden on all around you. That isn't good. The key is follow Jesus, following his instructions, listening to wise counselors (anointed brethren in Christ). He would not have told that woman to do what she did and failed to do.

Having twelve thousand of thousands of dollars in a bank with no debt could take you decades to share as God leads you. By then that money would have accumulated more through interest, adding more years on your job. Remember the TV show "The Millionaire"? A wealthy man sent a million dollars to someone each segment, documenting how it changed lives. Lots of lessons in the natural life were presented, with many lives ruined. It's people who are faithful with little that God want to make rulers of much. The rich young ruler favored the power of wealth rather than pursuing a career with Jesus by his side. Had he agreed with Jesus, his ministry might have been helps to the poor, his wealth never diminishing regardless of how much he gave out, in keeping with the principle of Jesus blessing the five fishes and two loaves, feeding thousands.
1 Corinthians 12:27-29 (KJV)
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?........
 
i disagree.
give me a billion dollars, and watch me give away 99.9% of it in the matter of a few months or a few years.
there are plenty of trustworthy christian charities and plenty of projects for the wealthy person to finance.
build an orphanage/church/school in africa. build 100 of them. build 1000 of them. buy a million bibles and distirbute 1 to every pastor in south america.
etc, etc, etc.
dont give me no excuses, the rich have plenty of ways to honor God with their money.
it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven.
and you know its impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, dont you?
praise God, all things are possible with God. that dont mean that we sin so grace may abound, though.
 
all things are possible with God
I love you brother Taylor but you said it appropriately " all things are possible with God". It is his decision, and I think it is possibly better to say that not all rich men go to heaven!
 
I love you brother Taylor but you said it appropriately " all things are possible with God". It is his decision, and I think it is possibly better to say that not all rich men go to heaven!
I love you too RJ :).
It is His decision, and thank Him for that! ha ha
He did say that it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven, though. so we should not be making excuses for the wealthy, encouraging them that it is ok to have extreme amounts of unnecessary wealth that go unshared.

If i was a pastor I would probably peach on this subject every once in a while: "What are you doing with you money???" :)
 
"What are you doing with you money???" :)
Well, I guess by someone's standards in the world, I am a rich man!:laugh::laugh: My wife and I tithe to our church. Like I intimated earlier, but by who's standard's and what is enough.
I could sale everything I have, reduce my living standards by 50% and give the other 50% to a charity...Is that what you suggest? Are you doing something similar?:(
 
Well, I guess by someone's standards in the world, I am a rich man!:laugh::laugh: My wife and I tithe to our church. Like I intimated earlier, but by who's standard's and what is enough.
I could sale everything I have, reduce my living standards by 50% and give the other 50% to a charity...Is that what you suggest? Are you doing something similar?:(
i mean, i would be lying if i said that God would not be pleased with you if you decided to do that for Him.

am I doing that? well, me and my wife have a combined monthly income of about $2,500, our monthly rent is $750, our monthly car payment is $450 (27% interest rate on the loan), our monthly cell phone bill is $70, our monthly car insurance is another $70, we pay $60 a month for internet so i can do school work here at home, we pay about $50 a month for utilities, we pay about $250 a month for gas money in the car, we pay about $350-400 a month for food. so we are on a pretty tight budget. but we do sponsor a child in south america through a christian organization that works through an evangelical church down there, and that costs us $35 a month. and we donate $10 per month to the local christian radio station that we like to listen to. and I go out to the homeless community several times a month and give them food, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, apples and oranges, and stuff like that.
 
i mean, i would be lying if i said that God would not be pleased with you if you decided to do that for Him.

am I doing that? well, me and my wife have a combined monthly income of about $2,500, our monthly rent is $750, our monthly car payment is $450 (27% interest rate on the loan), our monthly cell phone bill is $70, our monthly car insurance is another $70, we pay $60 a month for internet so i can do school work here at home, we pay about $50 a month for utilities, we pay about $250 a month for gas money in the car, we pay about $350-400 a month for food. so we are on a pretty tight budget. but we do sponsor a child in south america through a christian organization that works through an evangelical church down there, and that costs us $35 a month. and we donate $10 per month to the local christian radio station that we like to listen to. and I go out to the homeless community several times a month and give them food, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, apples and oranges, and stuff like that.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
God Bless you TaylorDonBarret!!
 
i disagree.
give me a billion dollars, and watch me give away 99.9% of it in the matter of a few months or a few years.
there are plenty of trustworthy christian charities and plenty of projects for the wealthy person to finance.
build an orphanage/church/school in africa. build 100 of them. build 1000 of them. buy a million bibles and distirbute 1 to every pastor in south america.
etc, etc, etc.
dont give me no excuses, the rich have plenty of ways to honor God with their money.
it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven.
and you know its impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, dont you?
praise God, all things are possible with God. that dont mean that we sin so grace may abound, though.

Well, I don't see putting a thread thread through a needle eye using faith or trust to apply to any spiritual purpose. Just an opinion of mine.

Let's make sure that while thinking the rich ought to do such things as you listed, that each of us does our relative part supporting the gospel.

It's actually futile hoping the 1% of wealthy Americans who hold up to 40% of America's net worth, which is mostly tied up in stocks that rise and fall in value, could help as much as each American willing to tithe. If all their wealth could be seized, that wealth would mathematically support America about 3 months, a one-time event. I'm figuring in what we borrow plus what is produced in a year. To extract their wealth in dollars would require dissolving most industries that depend upon stock investments to carry them through lean times. Once that was spent, the loss of jobs due to failing corporate America would be disastrous, beyond repair without divine intervention. Does America qualify for major protection from God? I won't answer that. Meanwhile we are grateful that the 1% invest to keep the gap between "enough" and "famine" as wide as possible.

I say all that to emphasize that the burden of doing business for the kingdom of Heaven has always been a duty of the average citizen of it, supplying what we can according to ability, with a cheerful heart, not out of abundance. what the wealthy do or don't do is between them and God.

There are commandments for rich Christians, implying that some rich people are Christians. A good one is 1 Timothy 6:17-19 (KJV)
17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

It says "ready" to distribute, not empty themselves, willing to help, not being forced. Do good with wealth, which is not possible if all their wealth is given away. That would make many of them poor, cursed with poverty, when formerly blessed to create wealth and provide employment.

The majority of scholars have put up the common idea of the camel going through the needle eye is not something based on our idea of a thread and needle, or camel passed through a sewing needle. It would have been sufficient for Jesus to declare something like "It is impossible for anyone that possesses more than needed for person/family to be saved. It referred to the night gate in the wall at Jerusalem, the main gate closed for security, which was too narrow and short for a fully loaded trader's camel to pass through. The animal had to be unloaded, the goods carried through, then loaded back on. A fully loaded camel looks like a tick carrying a dog, so to speak. An issue was the complaints of rich traders having to part with goods, camel on the inside, goods on the outside, having to leave goods outside while transferring goods inside. It was a matter of distrust, robbers waiting for him to go inside. The wealthy would settle for sleeping with the camel and the goods outside the gate, with one eye open, until the wide gate was open in the morning. There is definitely a big spiritual lesson there. They trusted their goods too much to enter the safety of the city. That's what the guides say, anyway, recently better supported by information from archaeologists and historians.

If it meant no rich person could be saved, then technically no American could be saved if we spend money on recreation, pets,movies and DVDs, or invest in a retirement, or keep valuable jewelry, or do anything else beyond what is required to keep our family fed, clothed, and housed any more than absolutely necessary. Anything above that is wealth, way more than most of the world's population. My wife and I spend about $2 a day for food and eat healthily. Well, when the grand children are here that goes up to $6-$8 a day, max $250 a month. The world average income is 10,000 per family, spending about $175 U.S. dollars per week for 4. My family has it better than most of the world, making us wealthy just on that point! Humans don't need what most Americans cram down. There are ways to cut spending far less than average, making more wealth available for others. The Church could feed the world by just eating right, cooking at home, packing lunches, etc. It ought not matter what the wealthy do. Ya listening, Church?

But people remain obsessed over what the wealthy have and won't share, which would not help more than about 90 days of our lifetime in this country, which means perhaps all those complaining are covetous.

So maybe we can add covetousness to the list of enemies of the Church.
 
if Jesus meant a giant gate big enough for a camel to go through, then why did he say a needle?

i dont think that """interpretation""" of the bible holds up anymore than the 'interpretations' of the bible which claim evolution and homosexuality.

what i do think though, is that the catholic church, back when it was teaching the kings and queens that they may sin as much as they please just so long as they pay the church in order to cover their sins, that they had to come up with some "interpretation" to explain away that verse in order to keep the wealthy convinced that they were in no danger.

do i covet the wealth of the wealthy? do i focus on the wealthy and what they can do? not at all.

maybe you are projecting, but i am not speaking out of envy or out of misplaced priorities.

all the money in the world wont save a single soul.

but a man who has been born-again by the spirit of God is not going to sit on a lump of gold he doesnt need when he knows the world around him is starving to death
 
if Jesus meant a giant gate big enough for a camel to go through, then why did he say a needle?

I'm not sure if Jesus really meant a needle, or if he meant a small opening in a gate that one crawls through.

The phrase, eye of a needle, was a common one to that day and age (not in English of course) in reference to such small gates one could enter into a city after hours through. It's definitely possible this kind of gate is what Jesus was referencing, methinks.

Travis
 
Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Actually he said eye of "the" needle.
Dovegiven is correct,the night entrance was referred to as "the eye of the needle",not just in Jerusalem but throughout the middle east at that time..
Think about it,why would Jesus say "a camel" when you could have used anything thats bigger than the eye of a needle.
Guess who could afford camels back then?

I do share your sentiments about pride and greed but Dovegiven is correct about the thin layer of actual wealth in the world.
It's mostly just paper backed by greed.
Edit:well now it's electronic bits.
 
Lets look at some context=

"The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus *answered again and *said to them, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” They were even more astonished and said to Him, “Then who can be saved?” Looking at them, Jesus *said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”

Jesus says it is IMPOSSIBLE for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. but with God, it becomes possible.

now, if Jesus was talking about a camel passing through something that was possible for it to pass through, then the entire context makes no sense.
 
I would encourage you all to read some good bible commentaries on that passage. all that i have found agree with me.

Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said, as always.
 
Most do have" a" needle ,an interlinear or Greek literal translation has the.

Young's Literal Translation
It is easier for a camel through the eye of the needle to enter, than for a rich man to enter into the reign of God.'

The gate is history and google images has pictures of what an eye of the needle gates looks like.
I can't say for sure what Jesus meant but I have to wonder why he chose a camel.
 
Back
Top