Is Baptismal Regeneration The Only Way?

[RJ]

Baptismal Regeneration is the belief that baptism is essential to salvation and that it is the means by which God actualizes the forgiveness of sins for the believer. It says that we are regenerated at baptism, not at faith.

Acts 2:38 is used by some to advocate a position of baptismal regeneration – that is, baptism is required for salvation. However, this is an inaccurate reading of Scripture. Here’s why:

• First the immediate context does not allow for such an interpretation. In the very next chapter, Acts 3:19, Peter links forgiveness with repentance without any such mention to baptism. He does the same thing at least four more times throughout Acts. If baptism were required for forgiveness of sin, then surely Peter would not have neglected to mention it as a requirement and just left people guessing.
• Second, the word “for” does not always mean, “in order to receive.” It can also mean “because” (cf. Acts 5:26; Mt 12:41). So the sentence may accurately be read in this way: “Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ because the forgiveness of your sins.”

• Third, the entirety of Scripture. The Bible is emphatically clear that we can do nothing to earn or add to our salvation. Ephesians 2:8 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.” “he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.” If baptism were required for salvation, then it would require a human work and this is contrary to the whole of Scripture. Baptism is the expected & commanded sign of being a Christian, not a necessary criterion for becoming one. Baptism was the universal experience of all Christians in the New Testament. For some, baptism is the expected & commanded sign of being a Christian but, not a necessary criterion for becoming one.
• Lastly, Jesus was the final and lasting atonement for our sins and his resurrection gives us lasting life for all eternity. Why would our omnipotent God abolish a legal system (a system of doing as a requirement); replace it with a system of grace, being a gift but turnaround and require us to do something ( water baptism). If we have to come together and physically go through a human effort to become baptised, then how can salvation be a gift, a gift is free and requires man to do nothing.
• That is why God replaced the Old Covenant with the New Covenant....it is all of him and none of us!

 

[NoHype]

It is a requirement, and our Lord Jesus set the example for us.

Does it mean that someone like the malefactor crucified with Christ who believed on Him can't be saved? No. Christ is able to save without water baptism also. But that's not reason enough to imply that water baptism is not required for those who are able and have no excuse.

 

[RJ]

It is a requirement, and our Lord Jesus set the example for us.

Does it mean that someone like the malefactor crucified with Christ who believed on Him can't be saved? No. Christ is able to save without water baptism also. But that's not reason enough to imply that water baptism is not required for those who are able and have no excuse.

I truly respect your opinon and immersion baptism can be a wonderful event, no doubt!
My thread was based of Baptismal Regeneration, is or isn't required for ones salvation?
You say it is a requirement, then you say it isn't. I think I understand what you are trying to say but it either is or it isn't!
I will do it to show him respect but I won't do it as the only means of regeneration.

 

[NoHype]

I truly respect your opinon and immersion baptism can be a wonderful event, no doubt!
My thread was based of Baptismal Regeneration, is or isn't required for ones salvation?
You say it is a requirement, then you say it isn't. I think I understand what you are trying to say but it either is or it isn't!
I will do it to show him respect but I won't do it as the only means of regeneration.

One must learn to be careful of that kind of idea you speak because of the Biblically unlearned, and because we are commanded to be baptized per the New Testament, by both our Lord Jesus and His Apostles. At the same time, what is man to try to put limits on His Power? Are we Christ that we can determine who He can save and who He cannot?

 

[RJ]

One must learn to be careful of that kind of idea you speak because of the Biblically unlearned, and because we are commanded to be baptized per the New Testament, by both our Lord Jesus and His Apostles. At the same time, what is man to try to put limits on His Power? Are we Christ that we can determine who He can save and who He cannot?

You make no sense.
It would be my argument that you limit God; You put limits on him with your Baptismal Regeneration not I.
How do you answer what you said: You say it is a requirement, then you say it isn't.?
Again, show me where I question God's ability to save, how did you come up with that?
No, it is Baptismal Regeneration that can put a man in bondage of untruth.
A change in conscience toward God and salvation can happen any where and with or without water and regardless, salvation would definetly come before water and water can only wash away a little dirt and that's all.

 

[NoHype]

You make no sense.
It would be my argument that you limit God; You put limits on him with your Baptismal Regeneration not I.
How do you answer what you said: You say it is a requirement, then you say it isn't.?
Again, show me where I question God's ability to save, how did you come up with that?

Are you Jesus that you can limit His Power to save? Did you die on the cross for the remission of sins for those who believe on you? If not, then why try to imply that there are other ways to be saved minus baptism? Afterall, your thread title asks "Is Baptism Regeneration The Only Way" doesn't it? What about the malefactor crucified with Jesus? Was he able to be baptized upon that cross?

Furthermore, you're bearing false witness by implying I said "You say it is a requirement, then you say it isn't." That statement is a bold faced LIE.

 

[RJ]

Are you Jesus that you can limit His Power to save? Did you die on the cross for the remission of sins for those who believe on you? If not, then why try to imply that there are other ways to be saved minus baptism? Afterall, your thread title asks "Is Baptism Regeneration The Only Way" doesn't it? What about the malefactor crucified with Jesus? Was he able to be baptized upon that cross?

Furthermore, you're bearing false witness by implying I said "You say it is a requirement, then you say it isn't." That statement is a bold faced LIE.

• Here is what you said, go back and look:
  "It is a requirement, and our Lord Jesus set the example for us.
  Does it mean that someone like the malefactor crucified with Christ who believed on Him can't be saved? No. Christ is able to save without water baptism also. But that's not reason enough to imply that water baptism is not required for those who are able and have no excuse."
• Above, your two statements, one says Baptismal Regenration is required, the second says that it is not required...does it not!...your words.
• I am very sorry for you that you feel you must resort to name calling to support your opposing statements.

 

[Brad Huber]

I truly respect your opinon and immersion baptism can be a wonderful event, no doubt!
My thread was based of Baptismal Regeneration, is or isn't required for ones salvation?
You say it is a requirement, then you say it isn't. I think I understand what you are trying to say but it either is or it isn't!
I will do it to show him respect but I won't do it as the only means of regeneration.

Are you looking for the least little possible to do and still be saved? I agree with Nohype. You don't "have" to have baptism to be saved, as there are obviously examples in scripture where some are not, and others not right away. One is saved through faith, not water. But its troubling to hear someone to look for the least.... that they can do (at least it sounds a bit like that). It makes it sound as if one is ashamed of Christ or too rebellious to follow His commands.

 

[RJ]

It is a requirement, and our Lord Jesus set the example for us.

Does it mean that someone like the malefactor crucified with Christ who believed on Him can't be saved? No. Christ is able to save without water baptism also. But that's not reason enough to imply that water baptism is not required for those who are able and have no excuse.

• You said: "Does it mean that someone like the malefactor crucified with Christ who believed on Him can't be saved? No."
• Again you are confusing, did you just say above that the thief on the cross was saved with out Baptismal Regeneration?
• Please no name calling!

 

[RJ]

Are you looking for the least little possible to do and still be saved? I agree with Nohype. You don't "have" to have baptism to be saved, as there are obviously examples in scripture where some are not, and others not right away. One is saved through faith, not water. But its troubling to hear someone to look for the least.... that they can do (at least it sounds a bit like that). It makes it sound as if one is ashamed of Christ or too rebellious to follow His commands.

That is truly odd; you must not have read my original posting against Baptismal Regeneration!

• I don't believe in salvation by Baptismal Regeneration only.
• NoHype does believe in Baptismal Regeneration.
• We are saved by faith and faith alone, not water, NoHype believes in water baptism and works, I do not.

 

[Brad Huber]

That is truly odd; you must not have read my original posting against Baptismal Regeneration!

• I don't believe in salvation by Baptismal Regeneration only.
• NoHype does believe in Baptismal Regeneration.
• We are saved by faith and faith alone, not water, NoHype believes in water baptism and works, I do not.

Have you been baptized, and do you promote that other Christians be or not be baptized? Or do you say its not really that important, its faith alone?

 

[RJ]

Have you been baptized, and do you promote that other Christians be or not be baptized? Or do you say its not really that important, its faith alone?

All great questions:

• Yes I have been baptised
• Whether others get baptised is up to them.
• Like I have said in my previous posts, it is by faith alone.
• I would never say that it is not important, that is up to someone else to decide for themselves but, it is not a requirement for salvation, If it were, it would be an insult to Christ's finality on the cross and his resurrection.
• Please read my original thread: Is Baptismal Regeneration The Only Way?

 

[james1523]

Baptismal Regeneration is the belief that baptism is essential to salvation and that it is the means by which God actualizes the forgiveness of sins for the believer. It says that we are regenerated at baptism, not at faith.

Acts 2:38 is used by some to advocate a position of baptismal regeneration – that is, baptism is required for salvation. However, this is an inaccurate reading of Scripture. Here’s why:

• First the immediate context does not allow for such an interpretation. In the very next chapter, Acts 3:19, Peter links forgiveness with repentance without any such mention to baptism. He does the same thing at least four more times throughout Acts. If baptism were required for forgiveness of sin, then surely Peter would not have neglected to mention it as a requirement and just left people guessing.
• Second, the word “for” does not always mean, “in order to receive.” It can also mean “because” (cf. Acts 5:26; Mt 12:41). So the sentence may accurately be read in this way: “Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ because the forgiveness of your sins.”

• Third, the entirety of Scripture. The Bible is emphatically clear that we can do nothing to earn or add to our salvation. Ephesians 2:8 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.” “he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.” If baptism were required for salvation, then it would require a human work and this is contrary to the whole of Scripture. Baptism is the expected & commanded sign of being a Christian, not a necessary criterion for becoming one. Baptism was the universal experience of all Christians in the New Testament. For some, baptism is the expected & commanded sign of being a Christian but, not a necessary criterion for becoming one.
• Lastly, Jesus was the final and lasting atonement for our sins and his resurrection gives us lasting life for all eternity. Why would our omnipotent God abolish a legal system (a system of doing as a requirement); replace it with a system of grace, being a gift but turnaround and require us to do something ( water baptism). If we have to come together and physically go through a human effort to become baptised, then how can salvation be a gift, a gift is free and requires man to do nothing.
• That is why God replaced the Old Covenant with the New Covenant....it is all of him and none of us!

We should be clear on the difference between conditions and works. Baptism is a condition for salvation, but it is not a work, i.e. something that is earned. Baptism is not a way to earn God's salvation, it is a necessary condition in order to receive the salvation that God offers as a free gift, by His grace. A condition for salvation has nothing to do with works and no impact on salvation by faith alone whatsoever. Any idea that baptism is somehow opposed to salvation by faith alone should be condemned. Even Martin Luther, who believed in salvation by faith alone, did not consider water baptism an unnecessary work, he considered water baptism an essential condition for salvation.

Regeneration means death, burial and resurrection. This is what it means to be "born again". One can have faith yet not be born again - Abraham, Isaac, all old testament saints.
Baptism is essential to salvation because it is God's command, to make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. Mark 16:16 - belief and baptism is requirement for salvation.
There is no example in Scripture of any believer not being baptized in the new testament, because they all knew it was essential for salvation.
Salvation is not about going to heaven because we have faith. Salvation is to be set free from sin and death, which is achieved through death, burial and resurrection, at baptism.
Baptism is not an "insult to the cross" or his resurrection. Baptism is the cross. Baptism is about dying and then rising again.
Romans 6:4 says "For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives."
Now why don't we interpret Romans 6:4 as literally and practically as we take John 3:16? Why do Christians insist that baptism is not essential, and is somehow against the cross? Baptism is about dying and being buried with Christ. This is why it is essential for salvation, because our salvation depends upon being identified with Christ. Unfortunately the majority of Christianity thinks salvation is to go to heaven because we believe in Christ. But scripture teaches that salvation is to die and rise again with Christ through baptism (1 Peter 3:21).

The view that baptism is necessary for salvation is entirely consistent with the old testament types. Take the example of the Israelites. They were not saved from Egypt just because they had faith. They were saved by passing through the sea and following the cloud which was their baptism and salvation as followers of Moses (1 Cor 10:2) (similarly, believers who pass through the waters of baptism (sea) and follow the Spirit (cloud), are baptized and saved as followers of Christ).

Take the example of Noah. Noah was not saved from the flood just because he had faith. Noah was saved by living through the flood, and remaining in the ark which is a symbol of Christ. This was Noah's baptism, being saved through water. 1 Peter 3:20 "to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,"

By faith we enter the ark (Christ) and then we are saved through the waters of baptism.
James 2 says faith without works is dead. Baptism is one of the works that shows our faith. Imagine if the Israelites had faith but never stepped into the sea - they would have stayed in Egypt. Imagine if Noah had faith that God would save him, but Noah did nothing about an ark - he would have drowned.
So Christians who have faith but don't get baptized, are like Noah who could believe that God could save him, but would never enter the ark.

Since the early days of Christianity, since Christ Himself was baptized by John, and His followers also, water baptism was the means by which a believer became a follower and disciple of Christ.

So the view that it is not essential for salvation is a lie from Satan who wants us to be ignorant and not enter God's full salvation. If we reveal the heart's intent, I am sure that Christians who do not wish to be baptized find water baptism an inconvenience or an embarrassment, that stands in the way of their more spiritual pursuits, yet at the cost of their own salvation, due to their disobedience of God's plain and simple command "..be baptized, every one of you" (Acts 2:38).

 

[B-A-C]

I don't know if I would go so far as to say it's the "only" way.
But Jesus did it, his disciples did it, John the baptist did it, and Jesus asked us to do it to others.
So it may not be the only way, but it appears to be the preferred way.
It may be (as in the case of the thief on the cross) that grace was given because he didn't really have an opportunity.
But what if you've been saved for several years? Likely in that time you had many opportunities. Is it possible God will ask us why we didn't do it?

 

[RJ]

I don't know if I would go so far as to say it's the "only" way.
But Jesus did it, his disciples did it, John the baptist did it, and Jesus asked us to do it to others.
So it may not be the only way, but it appears to be the preferred way.
It may be (as in the case of the thief on the cross) that grace was given because he didn't really have an opportunity.
But what if you've been saved for several years? Likely in that time you had many opportunities. Is it possible God will ask us why we didn't do it?

• That was the whole point of the thread, Baptismal Regenerationists say it is the only way and of course that is not the case.
• But what if you've been saved for several years? Likely in that time you had many opportunities. Is it possible God will ask us why we didn't do it? Hmmm, I am nobody to say what God will do, I guess it could be possible but, after all, wouldn't one still be saved if you hadn't been baptised. What if you were saved but died before you had a chance. I would think that finding Jesus in you is what he is looking for. He is going to have plenty to point out to me if he so wishes!

 

[james1523]

Baptism is the only way because baptism is regeneration. Saying baptismal regeneration is not the only way, is like saying Noah could have been saved a different way other than building an ark. The thief on the cross was not regenerated because he was not baptised by water or by the Spirit -he died before Christ was risen and before the Spirit was given. That's why the thief went to paradise , and not heaven.
Anyone who thinks the thief on the cross was saved under the new covenant dispensation, need to prove from scripture how the thief obtained the Spirit, to be born again, when the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified (John 7:39).

2 Kings 5 tells the story of a man who thought a simple command of God such as water baptism was unnecessary. He wanted to be healed of leprosy a certain way, by a miracle of hand waving and calling on the name of the Lord. Instead the prophet told him via a messenger to wash in the river, and didn't even come to meet him. This made Naaman angry because he traveled so far, and he was told he just had to wash in a river 7 times, and he though "what's so special about this river, there are better rivers at home". But obeying God's command, Naaman was healed.

Water baptism is the first test for a Christian to see if we can obey a simple command of God. Maybe we want to work miracles, save many people, do great works in His name, but we cannot obey a simple command from God such as water baptism. It is also a test to see if we trust God or our own reason. On the one hand Naaman thought the water was nothing special - he could use any old water, it wasn't even the best water. On the other hand, he put too much emphasis on the water, thinking that it was the water that would heal him, rather than God through obedience to the prophets instructions. In an example of baptism to us - God saved Naaman from leprosy through the water. Did the water save him? The answer is both yes and no. If Naaman had washed in another river, he would not have been healed. If Naaman had refused to wash at all, demanding a hand waving and prayerful miracle from a great prophet - he also would not have been healed. The story of Naaman reminds us of Christians who say the water is nothing special, why do I need to be water baptised? It also reminds us of Christians who say that it is the water which saves, which is also not true. On the one hand it is not about the water, yet on the hand we cannot ignore the water. On the one hand the water saves, on the other hand the water doesn't save.

It is these kinds of issues that cannot be fathomed by our own reasoning. Just as in Matthew 22:40-44 Jesus stumped the Pharisees, so they dared not ask any more questions, when we come to water baptism, we cannot fully understand why or how God uses it to save us. We may ask "is it right or wrong to be water baptised", but this is not a question that deserves an answer. This type of question is from the line of human reasoning and not from God. Instead, it is neither right nor wrong to be water baptised, it is simply God's command.

Here we see the difference between works and conditions. That Naaman had to follow the instructions from God was a condition to his healing. It was not his own work that merited him to deserve the healing. Baptism is never a work, it is a condition. People who say baptism is a work, are saying that their baptism makes them deserve God's salvation. Not at all, none of us deserve anything. Both faith and baptism, are conditions to salvation, not works.

5 Now Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the Lord had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier, but he had leprosy.
2 Now bands of raiders from Aram had gone out and had taken captive a young girl from Israel, and she served Naaman’s wife. 3 She said to her mistress, “If only my master would see the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy.”
4 Naaman went to his master and told him what the girl from Israel had said.5 “By all means, go,” the king of Aram replied. “I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” So Naaman left, taking with him ten talentsof silver, six thousand shekelsof gold and ten sets of clothing.6 The letter that he took to the king of Israel read: “With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman to you so that you may cure him of his leprosy.”
7 As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, “Am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life?Why does this fellow send someone to me to be cured of his leprosy? See how he is trying to pick a quarrel with me!”
8 When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent him this message: “Why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.” 9 So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha’s house. 10 Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, “Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed.”
11 But Naaman went away angry and said, “I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them and be cleansed?” So he turned and went off in a rage.
13 Naaman’s servants went to him and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’!” 14 So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy.

 

[RJ]

Baptism is the only way because baptism is regeneration. The thief on the cross was not regenerated because he was not baptised by water or by the Spirit -he died before Christ was risen and before the Spirit was given. That's why the thief went to paradise , and not heaven. The thief was saved under the old covenant, not the new.

• No baptism is not regeneration. Regeneration is spritual...being born again...the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...no physical things required.
• Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise" Who are you to say it is not heaven. The Jewish Encyclopedia says: "garden"; in the second and third, "park." In the apocalypses and in the Talmud the word is used of the Garden of Eden and its heavenly prototype
• Who are you to argue with Jesus himself? You can't say the criminal on the cross was not regenerated with out water; he was by Christ alone. You can't ignore that Christ was with the criminal.
• How do you know that the criminal was saved only under the old covenant. If he was jewish, how do you know if he was ritually saved....not all jews were!.....How do you know he wasn't a Gentile....was crucifixtion only for Jews...hardly!

 

[DHC]

• No baptism is not regeneration. Regeneration is spritual...being born again...the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...no physical things required.
• Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise" Who are you to say it is not heaven. The Jewish Encyclopedia says: "garden"; in the second and third, "park." In the apocalypses and in the Talmud the word is used of the Garden of Eden and its heavenly prototype
• Who are you to argue with Jesus himself? You can't say the criminal on the cross was not regenerated with out water; he was by Christ alone. You can't ignore that Christ was with the criminal.
• How do you know that the criminal was saved only under the old covenant. If he was jewish, how do you know if he was ritually saved....not all jews were!.....How do you know he wasn't a Gentile....was crucifixtion only for Jews...hardly!

Matthew 3:11
As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I,
and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the true baptism and the one we should focus on.
Dotting the i's and crossing the t's is certainly not what Christianity is about.
Christianity is all about the new creation in Christ and the interaction with the
Holy Spirit. It is not whether you have had a wash but whether the fire of the
Holy Spirit is burning within you. Regeneration from flesh to spirit!

 

[james1523]

No baptism is not regeneration. Regeneration is spritual...being born again...the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...no physical things required.
Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise" Who are you to say it is not heaven. The Jewish Encyclopedia says: "garden"; in the second and third, "park." In the apocalypses and in the Talmud the word is used of the Garden of Eden and its heavenly prototype
Who are you to argue with Jesus himself? You can't say the criminal on the cross was not regenerated with out water; he was by Christ alone. You can't ignore that Christ was with the criminal.
How do you know that the criminal was saved only under the old covenant. If he was jewish, how do you know if he was ritually saved....not all jews were!.....How do you know he wasn't a Gentile....was crucifixtion only for Jews...hardly!

You say that regeneration is the indwelling of the Spirit. Yet John 7:39 says the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified. How can the thief be born again if he didn't receive the Spirit?
Rom 8:9 Whoever doesn't have the Spirit of Christ doesn't belong to him

How could the Spirit of Christ enter the thief on the cross, to make him regenerated, when Jesus was still alive and not yet glorified? The Spirit of Christ, could not come into believers until after Jesus rose from the dead. Was the thief alive after Jesus rose from the dead? No. Therefore, the thief did not have the Spirit of Christ, and therefore he was not regenerated or born again.

Also, the thief could not have been born again because he did not believe (or even know) that Jesus rose from the dead, Romans 10:9 says that we must believe Jesus rose from the dead to be saved.

This proves that the thief on the cross died under the old covenant and was declared righteous under the old covenant, not by faith in Christ's finished work on the cross and not by being born again of the Spirit.

The thief on the cross is not an example of Christian salvation by faith alone, or regeneration, as many Christians suppose. It is an example of the mercy, grace and compassion of Christ under the old covenant.

The thief on the cross is an example of Christ's forgiveness before the gospel came into effect. Just like Christ also forgave prostitutes, and the woman caught in adultery, and the tax collectors, before the gospel came into effect.

We don't know if the thief was water baptized or not, scripture doesn't say. It is equally likely that the thief was baptized, because many came to be baptized by John in that region. We cannot use the thief as an example of salvation without water baptism.

 

[RJ]

You say that regeneration is the indwelling of the Spirit. Yet John 7:39 says the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified. How can the thief be born again if he didn't receive the Spirit?
Rom 8:9 Whoever doesn't have the Spirit of Christ doesn't belong to him

How could the Spirit of Christ enter the thief on the cross, to make him regenerated, when Jesus was still alive and not yet glorified? The Spirit of Christ, could not come into believers until after Jesus rose from the dead. Was the thief alive after Jesus rose from the dead? No. Therefore, the thief did not have the Spirit of Christ, and therefore he was not regenerated or born again.

Also, the thief could not have been born again because he did not believe (or even know) that Jesus rose from the dead, Romans 10:9 says that we must believe Jesus rose from the dead to be saved.

This proves that the thief on the cross died under the old covenant and was declared righteous under the old covenant, not by faith in Christ's finished work on the cross and not by being born again of the Spirit.

The thief on the cross is not an example of Christian salvation by faith alone, or regeneration, as many Christians suppose. It is an example of the mercy, grace and compassion of Christ under the old covenant.

The thief on the cross is an example of Christ's forgiveness before the gospel came into effect. Just like Christ also forgave prostitutes, and the woman caught in adultery, and the tax collectors, before the gospel came into effect.

We don't know if the thief was water baptized or not, scripture doesn't say. It is equally likely that the thief was baptized, because many came to be baptized by John in that region. We cannot use the thief as an example of salvation without water baptism.

• You can look and research all you want but, you will find that there is no precise chronological order of the four gospels, they all overlap and are separate accounts from 4 separate individuals with various times written.
• The most important things is they all chronicle the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
• You can say or manipulate them how ever you want to support your Baptimal Regeneration only salvation, I don't really care.
• Who are you to say the exact order of things in the spirit world, for there is no up, no down no time and space as any of us know it from the physical side.
• Again, I don't care about your self satisfying interpretation. The fact remains, Jesus is omipotent and we are not and, if he said that the malefactor and he would be in paradise together....spiritually regenerated, so be it!!!