Is Baptismal Regeneration The Only Way?

[james1523]

• You can look and research all you want but, you will find that there is no precise chronological order of the four gospels, they all overlap and are separate accounts from 4 separate individuals with various times written.
• The most important things is they all chronicle the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
• You can say or manipulate them how ever you want to support your Baptimal Regeneration only salvation, I don't really care.
• Who are you to say the exact order of things in the spirit world, for there is no up, no down no time and space as any of us know it from the physical side.
• Again, I don't care about your self satisfying interpretation. The fact remains, Jesus is omipotent and we are not and, if he said that the malefactor and he would be in paradise together....spiritually regenerated, so be it!!!

A past post of yours claims that salvation is by "faith alone" but it doesn't say that anywhere in scripture and you take Luther's words out of context. James 2:24 says we are not saved by faith alone and this is the only place in scripture where the phrase "faith alone" appears. Salvation by faith alone is an expression from Martin Luther (not the Bible), and it doesn't mean what you and others claim it to mean. Luther wrote "Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life." from An Introduction to St. Paul's Letter to the Romans, Luther's German Bible of 1522 by Martin Luther, 1483-1546.

He says in the same sentence, that "works are necessary for salvation" and also that "faith alone" gives life. You and most others have ignored the part which says "works are necessary for salvation" and focus only on the "faith alone" part. Luther is not saying it is "faith alone" and nothing else matters. He says works are necessary for salvation, and baptism is such a work. Luther was not against works for salvation, he was against works for salvation without faith. He was against the idea that merely being baptised granted salvation, without faith. He also says "Salvation is by faith alone but the faith which saves is never alone". This means faith without water baptism is not genuine saving faith. Those with faith get water baptised (e.g. the Ethiopian official wanted to be water baptized in Acts 8, showed genuine saving faith).

Baptism is one of those works that are necessary for salvation. But baptism doesn't cause our salvation. Baptism is a condition for salvation, not a causal work for salvation. The difference between conditions and causal works is this: assume you are about to be hit by a car, stepping out of the way of the car is a condition for being kept safe. But stepping out of the way did not cause the car to miss you by a result of your own work. Therefore you cannot take merit or claim that you caused the car to miss you as a result of your own work. Baptism is a condition for salvation but it doesn't cause our salvation, or give us anything to boast about.

Salvation by faith alone means faith is what causes our salvation, but it doesn't mean that baptism is not necessary for salvation. The idea that salvation is by faith alone and therefore nothing else matters or important for salvation, is not what Luther taught.

Contrary to your claim that we cannot know the order of things, Scripture clearly says when the Spirit for regeneration was given and it wasn't until after Jesus died and rose from the dead.

The thief died before Jesus rose again. No one was born again until Jesus died, was buried, and rose again. No one received the Spirit for regeneration until after Jesus died, rose and was glorified. Therefore the thief was not born again or regenerated.

You can't make claims about the thief being born again without water baptism, when you can't even prove that the thief received the Spirit or was regenerated.

John 3 says we must be born again of water and the Spirit to be born again. Born of water is water baptism. Christ told us to make disciples by baptising them (Matt 28:19). This is why every believer in the New Testament was water baptised as soon as they believed without hesitation. This is why infant baptism has been practised in the church for hundreds of years. Nowhere in the bible does it say water baptism is not necessary and there's no example in the new testament of anyone not being water baptised or told that they didn't have to be water baptised.

 

[RJ]

A past post of yours claims that salvation is by "faith alone" but it doesn't say that anywhere in scripture and you take Luther's words out of context. James 2:24 says we are not saved by faith alone and this is the only place in scripture where the phrase "faith alone" appears. Salvation by faith alone is an expression from Martin Luther (not the Bible), and it doesn't mean what you and others claim it to mean. Luther wrote "Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life." from An Introduction to St. Paul's Letter to the Romans, Luther's German Bible of 1522 by Martin Luther, 1483-1546.

He says in the same sentence, that "works are necessary for salvation" and also that "faith alone" gives life. You and most others have ignored the part which says "works are necessary for salvation" and focus only on the "faith alone" part. Luther is not saying it is "faith alone" and nothing else matters. He says works are necessary for salvation, and baptism is such a work. Luther was not against works for salvation, he was against works for salvation without faith. He was against the idea that merely being baptised granted salvation, without faith. He also says "Salvation is by faith alone but the faith which saves is never alone". This means faith without water baptism is not genuine saving faith. Those with faith get water baptised (e.g. the Ethiopian official wanted to be water baptized in Acts 8, showed genuine saving faith).

Baptism is one of those works that are necessary for salvation. But baptism doesn't cause our salvation. Baptism is a condition for salvation, not a causal work for salvation. The difference between conditions and causal works is this: assume you are about to be hit by a car, stepping out of the way of the car is a condition for being kept safe. But stepping out of the way did not cause the car to miss you by a result of your own work. Therefore you cannot take merit or claim that you caused the car to miss you as a result of your own work. Baptism is a condition for salvation but it doesn't cause our salvation, or give us anything to boast about.

Salvation by faith alone means faith is what causes our salvation, but it doesn't mean that baptism is not necessary for salvation. The idea that salvation is by faith alone and therefore nothing else matters or important for salvation, is not what Luther taught.

Contrary to your claim that we cannot know the order of things, Scripture clearly says when the Spirit for regeneration was given and it wasn't until after Jesus died and rose from the dead.

The thief died before Jesus rose again. No one was born again until Jesus died, was buried, and rose again. No one received the Spirit for regeneration until after Jesus died, rose and was glorified. Therefore the thief was not born again or regenerated.

You can't make claims about the thief being born again without water baptism, when you can't even prove that the thief received the Spirit or was regenerated.

John 3 says we must be born again of water and the Spirit to be born again. Born of water is water baptism. Christ told us to make disciples by baptising them (Matt 28:19). This is why every believer in the New Testament was water baptised as soon as they believed without hesitation. This is why infant baptism has been practised in the church for hundreds of years. Nowhere in the bible does it say water baptism is not necessary and there's no example in the new testament of anyone not being water baptised or told that they didn't have to be water baptised.

"You can't make claims about the thief being born again without water baptism, when you can't even prove that the thief received the Spirit or was regenerated. " One more time.....I do not have to prove anything....Jesus said...(not you and not me)...Jesus said that "he would be in Paradise with the malefactor on that day" and you can't change that.

I am sorry James, you just don't understand because you unfortunately are the one who takes things out of context!

• James 2:24 does not say what you think it does. You see James, a man is justified by works and not faith alone...this, of course, is true.
• John 15:5 : Jesus is the vine we are the branch; it is his fruits through us and not our works.
• James 2: 14-17....Therefore, anyone calling himself a Christian but no works of the spirit, his faith is dead!.....Your works ( his works through you) comes after salvation, if you have none you are not save at all with or without water.
• The point is James, we are justified by faith alone first but we are also justified by the works of the spirit. If we have no works like this after salvation, we are not saved in the first place.
• It is time to stop....let's just agree to disagree and move on! You are a legal-list and I am not and lets just leave it there and move to other things...how about Jesus is the only way or Jesus is Lord and Saviour or no one comes unto the Father unless they go through Jesus first.

 

[james1523]

Then what for believers and those who call themself Christians who do not get water baptised. If no work after salvation (like being water baptized) then they are not saved because their faith is dead.

Mark 16:16 says Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

There is only two types of people here, those without faith and those who have faith and are baptized. There is no such thing as having saving faith and not being baptized.

This means whoever doesn't have faith will not be saved, even if they are water baptised.
But whoever has faith and is baptized will be saved.
Whoever has faith and is not baptized, does not have genuine faith, their faith is dead. So they also are not saved.

 

[RJ]

Then what for believers and those who call themself Christians who do not get water baptised. If no work after salvation (like being water baptized) then they are not saved because their faith is dead.

Mark 16:16 says Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

There is only two types of people here, those without faith and those who have faith and are baptized. There is no such thing as having saving faith and not being baptized.

This means whoever doesn't have faith will not be saved, even if they are water baptised.
But whoever has faith and is baptized will be saved.
Whoever has faith and is not baptized, does not have genuine faith, their faith is dead. So they also are not saved.

So , I am drawn back in.
Then what for believers and those who call themself Christians who do not get water baptised. If no work after salvation (like being water baptized) then they are not saved because their faith is dead.......

• James, so you are a Baptismal regerationist but you agree above that you are "saved first"?....Do I read that correctly?

 

[james1523]

So , I am drawn back in.
Then what for believers and those who call themself Christians who do not get water baptised. If no work after salvation (like being water baptized) then they are not saved because their faith is dead.......

• James, so you are a Baptismal regerationist but you agree above that you are "saved first"?....Do I read that correctly?

Yes, salvation and regeneration are two different things.

 

[RJ]

Yes, salvation and regeneration are two different things.

• O.K., so, I guess your saying that one can't come before the other and your order is salvation first, separated by Water Baptism and, then finally comes regeneration.
• So again, you can be saved but not spiritually regenerated until water baptism?

 

[james1523]

O.K., so, I guess your saying that one can't come before the other and your order is salvation first, separated by Water Baptism and, then finally comes regeneration.
So again, you can be saved but not spiritually regenerated until water baptism?

That's right.. for example no one in the old testament was regenerated, yet they were saved by faith. Faith brings deliverance from hellfire. Regeneration through water baptism brings death to the old man, as well as entrance into the kingdom of Heaven, which is God's rule and reign on Earth (the church). At my water baptism, I was told clearly by the pentecostal pastor, that I was a believer in Christ, but I just hadn't died yet. Baptism was necessary to bring death to my old man.

To give an illustrative example. The Israelites in Egypt were the children of God, they were saved, because they were God's peple. But only if they passed through the waters of the parted sea (water baptism) and followed the cloud (signifying the Spirit) could they be saved from slavery (signifying the "old man", and enter the promised land (The kingdom of God, Jerusalem).

John the Baptist was saved but not regenerated. He was the bridegroom's friend, not the bride (believers in Christ who are regenerated):
John 3:28-29 ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice.

To believe in Christ but not be regenerated makes one a friend of Christ and a child of God. But to believe and be baptized makes one part of the bride of Christ, His lover. According to the book of Revelation, friends of Christ get to dwell on the new earth in peace and security with no death or tears. These people are resurrected to their created state. But the bride of Christ gets to rule and reign with Christ over these people, from the New Jerusalem. These people are resurrected and glorified with immortal spiritual bodies. Many are called to salvation, but few are chosen to rule and reign with Christ (Matt 22:14).

 

[RJ]

That's right.. for example no one in the old testament was regenerated, yet they were saved by faith. Faith brings deliverance from hellfire. Regeneration through water baptism brings death to the old man, as well as entrance into the kingdom of Heaven, which is God's rule and reign on Earth (the church). At my water baptism, I was told clearly by the pentecostal pastor, that I was a believer in Christ, but I just hadn't died yet. Baptism was necessary to bring death to my old man.

To give an illustrative example. The Israelites in Egypt were the children of God, they were saved, because they were God's peple. But only if they passed through the waters of the parted sea (water baptism) and followed the cloud (signifying the Spirit) could they be saved from slavery (signifying the "old man", and enter the promised land (The kingdom of God, Jerusalem).

John the Baptist was saved but not regenerated. He was the bridegroom's friend, not the bride (believers in Christ who are regenerated):
John 3:28-29 ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice.

To believe in Christ but not be regenerated makes one a friend of Christ and a child of God. But to believe and be baptized makes one part of the bride of Christ, His lover. According to the book of Revelation, friends of Christ get to dwell on the new earth in peace and security with no death or tears. These people are resurrected to their created state. But the bride of Christ gets to rule and reign with Christ over these people, from the New Jerusalem. These people are resurrected and glorified with immortal spiritual bodies. Many are called to salvation, but few are chosen to rule and reign with Christ (Matt 22:14).

That's right.. for example no one in the old testament was regenerated, yet they were saved by faith. Faith brings deliverance from hellfire. Regeneration through water baptism brings death to the old man, as well as entrance into the kingdom of Heaven, which is God's rule and reign on Earth (the church). At my water baptism, I was told clearly by the pentecostal pastor, that I was a believer in Christ, but I just hadn't died yet. Baptism was necessary to bring death to my old man.

• 1 Corinthians 1:17
  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
• If water baptism was a requirement for salvation Christ would have sent Paul the apostle to baptize. However, Paul was not sent to water baptize but to preach the gospel of which water baptism is not an essential element

To give an illustrative example. The Israelites in Egypt were the children of God, they were saved, because they were God's peple. But only if they passed through the waters of the parted sea (water baptism) and followed the cloud (signifying the Spirit) could they be saved from slavery (signifying the "old man", and enter the promised land (The kingdom of God, Jerusalem

• Please, stop living in the Old Testament, we are under the New Testament.

To believe in Christ but not be regenerated makes one a friend of Christ and a child of God
You are an Immersionist and many of us are not. You think you are the preffered choice of God and we are not. But, a friend of Christ and a child of God, as you say, is just fine for me and makes me very complete!

 

[james1523]

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
If water baptism was a requirement for salvation Christ would have sent Paul the apostle to baptize. However, Paul was not sent to water baptize but to preach the gospel of which water baptism is not an essential element

If baptism wasn't a requirement for salvation, then Mark 16:16 wouldn't say it is. The disciples of Christ baptized (John 4:1-2). Christ told us to make disciples by baptizing (Matt 28:19). Clearly it's important. If we are not baptized in the name of Christ we are not a disciple of Christ and we really can't claim to be a Christian which is a follower of Christ. The mistake is thinking it is "only a sign" and not an essential thing, when it is so carefully observed in scripture that we cannot say it is "only a sign".

Please, stop living in the Old Testament, we are under the New Testament.

Maybe you should take the old testament out of your bible then. Everything in the New Testament is directly related to the old testament. Your rejection of the old testament is probably why you have little understanding about regeneration and baptism. They are foretold and shadowed in the old testament afterall. If we are discerning we can see that water baptism "replaces" circumcision (Col 2:11-12)

You are an Immersionist and many of us are not. You think you are the preffered choice of God and we are not. But, a friend of Christ and a child of God, as you say, is just fine for me and makes me very complete!

Your reasoning is man's reasoning not God's because He wants to mature us. We should not want to remain a child , but grow unto maturity. If we have not been water baptized, our flesh has not been crucified, and we have not been born again, so we cannot progress much further in the Christian faith than an infant (Hebrews 6). Instead of asking the question of "is baptism necessary for salvation", a better question would be "if we are saved, why would we not want to get water baptised". Not desiring water baptism indicates something wrong with our spirituality. I know that for myself, the first thing I wanted to do when I believed in Christ was get water baptized, this is what the Spirit put on my heart, and many others can testify the same.
The Ethiopian official was eager to be water baptized after hearing the gospel: Acts 8:36 "“See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”"
So the gospel and baptism go hand in hand.
Obedience to water baptism is a sign of living faith. Ignorance of baptism is a sign of dead faith, or not listening to the Spirit, one of the two.
Water baptism is also a requirement to be a member of most churches. So not only do we have God asking us to be water baptized, but also His church saying we should be water baptized.
Christians who do not obey God or the church and don't want to get water baptized are like Christians who live with their partner and don't get married. Maybe they believe in Christ but I think they have some issues like self-righteousness -putting their own reason and excuses before God and his church.

 

[RJ]

• James,

You said:
If baptism wasn't a requirement for salvation, then Mark 16:16 wouldn't say it is. The disciples of Christ baptized (John 4:1-2). Christ told us to make disciples by baptizing (Matt 28:19). Clearly it's important. If we are not baptized in the name of Christ we are not a disciple of Christ and we really can't claim to be a Christian which is a follower of Christ. The mistake is thinking it is "only a sign" and not an essential thing, when it is so carefully observed in scripture that we cannot say it is "only a sign".

• Yes , and the the second part of Mark 16:16 is important. If God were so concerened about immersion, he would have not said: "but whoever does not believe will be condemned"....would have said, but whoever does not believe and baptised will be condemed.
• It all boils down to this:

1. It is not eactly about scripture, I can quote as many verses as you to support my belief.
2. The truth of the matter is you don't understand and accept grace the way I do. We are saved by grace and that is a gift and none of our own doing. God gave us a New Covenant of grace and you are still stuck in the Old Covenant and the legalistic atonement of doing something to provide your salvation.
3. 2 Corinthians 12:9......Paul relays a message he received from God in this passage. When Paul asked God to take away 'a thorn in his flesh,' God lovingly denied his request. Why? Because it made Paul weak. Why would God want this for one of his faithful servants? Because it made him powerful.
4. You deny that God's grace is sufficient and refuse his total, stand alone power.
5. You have no real weakness because you have been "water- immersed baptised".
6. What you need to do is humble yourself and admit that only God's grace is sufficient for your salvation, not a bunch of humans getting together and humanly performing the act of baptism!
7. You see , I can qoute a verse on this subject: Romans 11:6

 

[james1523]

• James,

You said:
If baptism wasn't a requirement for salvation, then Mark 16:16 wouldn't say it is. The disciples of Christ baptized (John 4:1-2). Christ told us to make disciples by baptizing (Matt 28:19). Clearly it's important. If we are not baptized in the name of Christ we are not a disciple of Christ and we really can't claim to be a Christian which is a follower of Christ. The mistake is thinking it is "only a sign" and not an essential thing, when it is so carefully observed in scripture that we cannot say it is "only a sign".

• Yes , and the the second part of Mark 16:16 is important. If God were so concerened about immersion, he would have not said: "but whoever does not believe will be condemned"....would have said, but whoever does not believe and baptised will be condemed.
• It all boils down to this:

1. It is not eactly about scripture, I can quote as many verses as you to support my belief.
2. The truth of the matter is you don't understand and accept grace the way I do. We are saved by grace and that is a gift and none of our own doing. God gave us a New Covenant of grace and you are still stuck in the Old Covenant and the legalistic atonement of doing something to provide your salvation.
3. 2 Corinthians 12:9......Paul relays a message he received from God in this passage. When Paul asked God to take away 'a thorn in his flesh,' God lovingly denied his request. Why? Because it made Paul weak. Why would God want this for one of his faithful servants? Because it made him powerful.
4. You deny that God's grace is sufficient and refuse his total, stand alone power.
5. You have no real weakness because you have been "water- immersed baptised".
6. What you need to do is humble yourself and admit that only God's grace is sufficient for your salvation, not a bunch of humans getting together and humanly performing the act of baptism!
7. You see , I can qoute a verse on this subject: Romans 11:6

The reason the second part of Mark 16:16 omits baptism, is because baptism alone cannot save anyone, we need faith.Mark 16:16 says two things 1) if you believe and are baptized you will be saved, 2) if you don't believe you will be condemned. You are using the second part of this verse to reject the first part of this verse. But both parts of the verse are true especially the first - 1) we need belief and baptism to be saved.

Let's see if you really can quote as many verses to support your belief so far you haven't given any verse which says baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Paul says it is by baptism that we are united to Christ (1 Cor 12:13, Rom 6:2, Gal 3:27), in Christ's death, burial and resurrection (Rom 6:1-6). Peter says baptism saves us (1 Pet 3:21), and Paul says baptism brings new life and renewal by the Spirit (Tit 3:5) and the washing of baptism sanctifies and justifies us (1 Cor 6:11). That is 7 verses and add Mark which is 8 verses at least.

You think that grace and baptism are not related to each other but If we reject baptism we have no real power for living the Christian life because it is through baptism that we die to our flesh and live a resurrected life (Romans 6:3-5). Grace is not just unmerited favor, it is also God's strength and presence, and baptism is a way that God's grace is applied to our being - freeing us from the old man and bringing new life.

Also for additional confirmation, if we study the early church apologetics concerning baptism the overwhelming view is that baptism is the way we are regenerated and is necessary for salvation. That is why the church over the centuries, has placed such importance on water baptism.

Matt 3:15, Jesus was baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness. This means that if Jesus had not been baptized, he would not have been righteous in the eyes of God. The importance of water baptism should not be understated and merely treating it as a trivial matter or only "getting wet" must grieve the Holy Spirit who commands us to make disciples of Christ by baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Hekuran]

I take Acts 10: 44-48 as a helpful illustration of the place of baptism:

While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, for they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter said, “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” So he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they invited him to stay for several days.This, of course, is a major turning point in the spread of the gospel: from here, Gentiles are included.

To me it seems clear that salvation comes to Cornelius before baptism - he receives the Holy Spirit, speaks in tongues and praises God. Paul's first response on seeing the evidence of salvation is to initiate baptism.

Baptism is a powerful public declaration that a person has died to themselves and lives in expectation of rising with Christ. In the case of Cornelius, it was also an infallible statement that the church accepted him as one of them. Salvation is not dependent on baptism, but baptism is a natural step of obedience following salvation.

That's what I understand about baptism from this passage.

 

[RJ]

I take Acts 10:44-48 as a helpful illustration of the place of baptism:

While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, for they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter said, “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” So he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they invited him to stay for several days.This, of course, is a major turning point in the spread of the gospel: from here, Gentiles are included.

To me it seems clear that salvation comes to Cornelius before baptism - he receives the Holy Spirit, speaks in tongues and praises God. Paul's first response on seeing the evidence of salvation is to initiate baptism.

Baptism is a powerful public declaration that a person has died to themselves and lives in expectation of rising with Christ. In the case of Cornelius, it was also an infallible statement that the church accepted him as one of them. Salvation is not dependent on baptism, but baptism is a natural step of obedience following salvation.

That's what I understand about baptism from this passage.

I like what you say.
Most Baptismal Regenerationist ,who have been at it long enough, have come to un-avoidable conclusinon that many a salvation does occur outside water baptism. In fact, with their on followers, they will agree that salvation comes first. Unfortunately, that is where they draw the line. To satisfy their theology,their doctrine is yes your saved first but regeneration doesn't happen until you are immersed. That is also why, they say you may have to be baptised several times if regeneration hasn't taken effect. Aside from God making that final conclusion, I don't know how or who among them decide when a follower is not regenerated yet.
I find that so odd, first you are saved (Christ in you). Now, God has said that he would never leave or forsake you but, if you do not get totally wet with water, he will leave you. What a pitty to be trapped inside this kind of bondage!

 

[james1523]

Regeneration is to die and be buried with Christ and raised with Him. Is there any other way this can happen apart from baptism? This is the problem with seeing baptism as only a symbol - it ignores the regenerative work that God accomplishes through the act of baptism. Col 2:12 ...having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him...

And we cannot say that God does not work through physical acts - afterall, it is because of a violent death on a cross, and the physical blood that was shed, that Christians believe their sins are forgiven. Yet no one would say that Christ's blood "does nothing", it is just blood, so why do we say that the baptismal water "does nothing"?


"That is also why, they say you may have to be baptised several times if regeneration hasn't taken effect. " - that is a false concept, "they" are wrong. We only have to be baptized once.

"Aside from God making that final conclusion, I don't know how or who among them decide when a follower is not regenerated yet. " - the decision is easy and verifiable -those who are not baptized are not regenerated.

Those who are against baptism regeneration do not understand faith alone nor regeneration.

Martin Luther and the Lutheran Church believe in baptismal regeneration, yet they were the primary originators and defenders of the "faith alone" doctrine. Some have argued that baptismal regeneration is incompatible with faith alone - but in Luther's mind they were perfectly compatible. It is due to a wrong understanding of what Luther meant by faith alone and wrong understanding of regeneration that they arrive at these conclusions.

The modern reformed doctrines of salvation by faith alone apart from baptismal regeneration are nothing but antinomian and gnostic heresies, that deny the physical realm, that have strayed from the orthodox doctrine of baptismal regeneration - upheld today by the Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran churches, and any discerning Christians.

Coupled with these strange doctrines that "only the spiritual matters" is heretical views that Jesus only died on the cross "spiritually", that we can have "spiritual" fellowship without seeing people face to face, and that all of the scriptures about giving to the poor, clothing the naked and feeding the hungry, only mean giving, clothing and feeding in a "spiritual" sense.

However the bible defines true spirituality in this way:: James 1:27 "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." True spirituality is shown by outward actions. True spirituality is to embrace water baptism as the physical act of regeneration.