B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 12,067
Be careful what you ask for. I don't necessarily agree with all the point below, but here they are.
The largest Protestant denomination here in the US are the Baptists. They are fairly Calvinistic and believe in once saved/always saved.
The largest Protestant denomination in the world is the Assemblies of God. They are very anti-once saved/always saved.
Part 1
Once saved - always saved. This is perhaps one of the greatest dividing factors in the Church today.
There are Churches such as the Unitarians that believe everyone is saved no matter what. You don’t have to believe in God or Jesus or anything. Jesus died for everyone, so everyone is saved no matter what. (Unity Church)
Heb 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"
Yes God will never leave us. But can we leave him? There’s an old saying that says “If you feel far from God, guess who moved!” Keep in mind, many divorces are also one sided, both the husband and the wife do not want it, but it only takes one of them to make the divorce happen.
Can we backslide?
The word “backsliding” appears in the King James 12 times, and only in the Old Testament, not at all in the New Testament.
Jer 3:6, 8, 11, 12, 14, 22
Jer 8:5
Jer 31:22
Jer 49:4
Hos 4:16
Hos 11:7
Hos 14:4
Most believe that the tale of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) is a tale of backsliding because the son was not coming home for the first time: He was coming back home after leaving. To paraphrase, the son was with the father, left the father, and then came back to the father.
Luk 15:11 And He said, "A man had two sons.
Luk 15:12 "The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.' So he divided his wealth between them.
Luk 15:13 "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.
Luk 15:14 "Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished.
Luk 15:15 "So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
Luk 15:16 "And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.
Luk 15:17 "But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!
Luk 15:18 'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
Luk 15:19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'
Luk 15:20 "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
Luk 15:22 "But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;
Luk 15:23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
Luk 15:24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
Luk 15:25 "Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing.
Luk 15:26 "And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be.
Luk 15:27 "And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.'
Luk 15:28 "But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him.
Luk 15:29 "But he answered and said to his father, 'Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends;
Luk 15:30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.'
Luk 15:31 "And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours.
Luk 15:32 'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"
Jesus taught a lot in parables (stories). The only place that he actually explained what the parable meant was the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13:3-8 is the parable itself. It is also found in Mark 4:3-8 and in Luke 8:5-8.
Mat 13:3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;
Mat 13:4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
Mat 13:5 "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
Mat 13:6 "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 "Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
Mat 13:8 "And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
Mat 13:9 "He who has ears, let him hear."
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Mat 13:11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
The explanation
Mat 13:18 "Hear then the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
Mat 13:20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Mat 13:22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
Verse 19 is about the people who never believed in the first place because they did not understand.
Verses 20 and 21 are about people who believed for a little while and then quit believing.
Verse 22 is also about people who believed and then for various reasons quit believing.
Verse 23 is about people who never did backslide (not everyone backslides!) and who continue to believe.
In Romans 11; verse 20 we see that people can be “broken off” because of unbelief.
In verse 23 even though they were broken off, they believed again, thus God was able to “graft them in again.”
Rom 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
A person cannot be something “again” for the first time. They would have had to be that something once already in order to be it “again.”
Here the Bible says that someone can quit being what they were. In other words you can be a Christian (“salt”) and you can quit being a Christian (losing your “saltiness”)
Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
1Tim 1:19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
1Ti 5:15 for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
In the verses below, how would they know it’s a “different” gospel unless they had already heard the gospel in the first place?
Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Apparently just because your name was written in the book of life, it doesn’t mean it will always stay there forever, it can be removed.
Psal 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Could it be, there really is such a thing as going too far? Even for those who have already been used by God and have accomplished some of his work? A common argument is “well they were never saved in the first place”.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
2Jo 1:11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
Yes there is grace. Thank God for that.
Mat 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22 Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Phi 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Having said all of this, do I think it happens often? No. I think it is VERY difficult for this to happen, but I do think it is possible.
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
As I said at the beginning, he will never leave or forsake us, but can we leave and forsake him?
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Can we “fall way” from something we never had in the first place?
Luk 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Notice all 5 of the verses above say we are saved by what we believe in, or have faith in. Not by what we do. So how then, is it possible to get "unsaved" by what we do? We can't. We can't sin so much that we lose our salvation. (After all we weren't saved by works in the first place)
However we can sin so much that we lose our faith. (1Tim 4:1 and the parable of the sower) and once we lose our faith.. well... read those 5 verses again.
Look at Peter, he denied Christ 3 times in 1 day (after he was a believer) David committed an affair and had the womans' husband killed, Paul said he does the things he shouldn't do and doesn't do the things he know's he should do. (Romans 7)
So this woman goes back to prostitution, does she lose her salvation? Did Rahab the Harlot lose hers? How about Hosea's wife Gomer (the whole story is an allegory of Hosea as God and Gomer as Israel and how they were unfaithful to their husbands). I think the grace of God allows for mistakes after we become Christians (or believers). But you can sin so much that your faith starts to slip..
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
The word "exchanged" is key here. If you go to a store, and almost buy some pants, and never purchase them and never take them home,
well they were never yours, so you can't exchange them. However if you buy them, and leave the store with them, now you OWN them.
You can take them back later and exchange them. So this verse doesn't mean that they never accepted it, it means they accepted it as truth, even if it was for a very short while, and then "exchanged" it for something else.
Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
No.. no one is more powerful than God, not even Satan himself can snatch someone out of Jesus's hand.
But could it be, that we are free leave on our own accord?
I've found that most people that debate this, also have specific view about predestination, the elect and God's sovereignty. I'm used to think that predestination was a different argument from once saved always saved, but now I am more convinced that they are almost the same subject....
Is it true that God wants everyone to be saved?
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Yet we know that "all" won't be saved.
Matt 8:12; 13:42; Matt 24:51, Luke 13:28, etc...
The argument goes something like this...
Either God is in control or he isn't. Either he is sovereign over everything or he isn't.
Some people think there is no middle ground.
There are many verses in the Bible that talk about how God predestined certain things to happen. (Acts 4:28, Rom 8:29-30, 1Cor 2:7, etc..) Not to mention all the prophecies of Christ that were fulfilled (example Acts 3:18) Obviously if God said these things were going to happen, then he "predestined" them to happen.
But does that mean he predestines EVERY single thing that happens? If God truly is in control of everything, and nothing happens that he doesn't want to happen then that means every single sin that happens is God's fault. If we don't have freedom of choice and we can only do what God predestines us to do, then every murder, rape, molestation, divorce, genocide, lie, cheat and fraud is God's fault that it happens.
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
What if instead of God being in control of all of our decisons, he is in control of all our circumstances? What if the sins we do, really are our choice?
What is God is SO sovereign, that he is in control, even when we don't do what he wants us to?
Many, many times in the OT Israel was punished for disobeying God, for turning away from him and following other Gods. Was it really God's choice that Israel do this, just so he could punish them? Or was it simply their own choice?
Back to once saved always saved... some will argue.. do you think you are stronger than God? No of course not, I can't make universes, stars, planets, oceans, and millions of other things, I can't hold the world in my hands. But is it possible that God sometimes respect our choices, even when they are bad choices?
Does God's will for the human race depend on me? Or will his will happen in spite of me?
I believe God will always use circumstances and the Holy Spirit to guide us in the right direction, I believe he wants us to do the right thing.
But does he always MAKE us do what he wants us to do? It seems many who believe in once saved - always saved, when they find out someone they "thought" was saved is actually living in sin (perhaps, adultery, pornography, or some other serious sin) then they will say "well that person was never really saved in the first place".
But that isn't what the Bible says, Peter sinned after he was a believer, Paul did too, that didn't make them "un-saved".
I believe God was in control of the circumstances that they sinned in, but the choice to sin, was their own.
A favorite verse, quoted by many people says...
Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I believe this, yes God loves us all, but the love of God is NOT the salvation of God.
I am sometimes told.. it is dangerous to tell people they can lose their salvation.
I would ask... which is more dangerous??
Someone who can't lose their salvation, but is afraid that they might (what is the danger here?) ... or ...
Someone who can lose their salvation, but think's that they can't.
I suppose God could have made us all robots... Here is some food for thought...
God creates Earth #1, with Adam #1, but oops Adam messes up and eats from the tree of Knowledge of Good ad Evil. Well I suppose God could have pressed the "reset" button on creation, and started all over again. Then God creates Earth #2, with Adam #2, but oops, Adam #2 messes up too.... (see a pattern here??)
Perhaps God could have kept on "re-setting" creation and starting over and over again with Adam #3, and #4, etc... but eventually they all would have messed up. The point here is God didn't make them to be robots, he made them to have freedom of choice. Yes, Adam made a bad choice, but does that mean God wasn't in control?
I'm sure satan would like to think so. All of Adams descendents are born into sin, and the sin keeps passing on through his bloodline to all of humanity.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Wow, sounds like satan must have won. But God had a plan....
Another "adam" came to earth in the form of flesh, born from a human mother. His favorite name for himself was "son of man". Yet, even though he came to earth as a human, he never sinned, so death could not hold him.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Because of sin, we all die.
But what if someone didn't sin?
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jesus didn't earn the wages of death, because he never sinned.
Now we have choice... it isn't just Adam making the choice for all of humanity, we can make the choice individually as we will. In a way, Jesus coming to Earth and breaking the curse of sin, was the same thing as God "re-setting" the universe all over again, but it was better, ... because instead of having multiple Adams make the choice for us over and over again... we can make the choice ourselves in Jesus.
Earlier... I mentioned someone might ask.. do you thnk you're stronger than God? I would ask the question back.. do you think your decision is stronger than God's purpose?
... so there you have it, a few scriptures that support the other side.
Last edited:
