Just curious

[sintheticg]

How many denominations out there partake of "The Lords supper?"

Do you use wine or grape juice?

Do you use unleavened bread or just regular bread?

I had a major issue yesterday picking up my younger brother from a bible camp and they used leavened bread. leaven is a picture of sin and Christ was sinless, therefore the bread should have no leaven, but i'd welcome any other views as i'm trying to learn here. this was far from my only problem with this "bible" camp, but for discussion sake ill keep those to myself.

as far as grape juice vs. wine, i'd like to hear arguments for both. my own understandings are that wine in itself is not sin, but being drunk on wine is:
(Ephesians 5:18) "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"
(Proverbs 20:1) "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
(Proverbs 31:4-6) "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: {5} Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. {6} Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts."

If we use the "law" of first mention we see the first time wine is mentioned in the texts is in (Genesis 9:19-24) "These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread. {20} And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: {21} And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. {22} And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. {23} And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. {24} ¶And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him."

we see the first time wine is mentioned it leads to a very disgusting sin, but it wasn't the one who was drunk that sinned so much that what his son did to him while he was drunk.

I would lean toward grape juice for the simple fact that there may be recovered alcoholics in the crowd, but at the same time, the sacraments are for those who are saved and if you really are saved, The Lord promises you will not be tempted above which you are able (1 Corinthians 10:13) "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

please include scriptures for your argument, after all, our feelings aren't what's important here, but what do the scriptures say?

 

[james1523]

How many denominations out there partake of "The Lords supper?"

Do you use wine or grape juice?

Do you use unleavened bread or just regular bread?

I had a major issue yesterday picking up my younger brother from a bible camp and they used leavened bread. leaven is a picture of sin and Christ was sinless, therefore the bread should have no leaven, but i'd welcome any other views as i'm trying to learn here. this was far from my only problem with this "bible" camp, but for discussion sake ill keep those to myself.

We use wafers and juice.
Historically, Christians used regular household bread, leavened bread, whatever was available. There's uncertainty about what type of bread Jesus used, and whether it was a Passover meal or a seder meal. If this was an important matter it would be detailed clearly in scripture. Some think that because the Last Supper was before Passover, Jesus used leavened bread. Others say it was an early Passover, so Jesus used unleavened bread. The Orthodox church uses leavened bread and believes Jesus used this. But evidence points stronger to the use of unleavened bread, easily broken and distributed.

In terms of wine or grape juice.. I have attended churches that have alcohol wine.. normally the wine is mixed with water, it's very weak, so it should not really be a problem for alcoholics. I should think that the advertisements for alcoholic in the world in general would be far greater temptations than the communion wine anyway.

 

[sintheticg]

We use wafers and juice.
Historically, Christians used regular household bread, leavened bread, whatever was available. There's uncertainty about what type of bread Jesus used, and whether it was a Passover meal or a seder meal. If this was an important matter it would be detailed clearly in scripture. Some think that because the Last Supper was before Passover, Jesus used leavened bread. Others say it was an early Passover, so Jesus used unleavened bread. The Orthodox church uses leavened bread and believes Jesus used this. But evidence points stronger to the use of unleavened bread, easily broken and distributed.

In terms of wine or grape juice.. I have attended churches that have alcohol wine.. normally the wine is mixed with water, it's very weak, so it should not really be a problem for alcoholics. I should think that the advertisements for alcoholic in the world in general would be far greater temptations than the communion wine anyway.

thanks for your response james. It has been my understanding that Christ says (Matthew 26:26) "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body." So in the picture of the ceremony the bread is his body, which we can agree was sinless. If leaven is a picture of sin in scripture then in my opinion we should not be using leavened bread as a sign of respect at the very least, but i suppose you are right that it is not clearly defined. I also suppose in contradiction to myself that we being freed from the law that it doesn't really matter so long as we are worshiping in spirit and in truth.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

If leaven is a picture of sin in scripture then in my opinion we should not be using leavened bread as a sign of respect at the very least, but i suppose you are right that it is not clearly defined. I also suppose in contradiction to myself that we being freed from the law that it doesn't really matter so long as we are worshiping in spirit and in truth.

Leaven can be a symbol of pride which puffs up but it is also used as a pattern for the arrival of the kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
So there is leaven from heaven and leaven from the mind of man.

 

[sintheticg]

Leaven can be a symbol of pride which puffs up but it is also used as a pattern for the arrival of the kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
So there is leaven from heaven and leaven from the mind of man.

thank you for the scriptures, makes sense now :embarasse

 

[SBNmediamember]

I think you're pretty much on the right track with grape juice, as Christ wouldn't have partaken in anything that would remotely altar the state of one's mind. So, for example, if 10 beers would make one drunk, then 1 beer would make that person 10% drunk, right? And all alcoholics started with one drink. So, looking it up in Strong's Concordance, there are several verses on being sober. These are a command and not a suggestion. Like Titus 2:6 "likewise exhort to be sober minded..." 1Peter 4:7 "be ye therefore sober and watch unto..." 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." I would venture to say, then, that our Lord had no intention of making anyone feel warm and fuzzy. Nor did he ever suggest that drinking in moderation would be okay. So then "why," with all common sense, would He pass fermented wine around at the Last Supper? (Fermented implying decay) For, in the Garden, when He asked His disciples to watch and pray, He would have known that alcohol in their systems would make that impossible (can you imagine a thirsty disciple just "sipping" a tiny bit of wine with his meal?) So, alcohol has no place in the life of a Christian, and those who support it are simply supporting their habit. What else can be said? For their habit is more important than their weaker brother. Yes, I saw two weaker brothers fall off the wagon because of "my" liberty! Therefore do I speak from experience. We have an example to set and we need to be set apart from the world, or the world won't see any difference.
But the elements serve as "symbols" only. Bread, leavened or unleavened will not altar the state of one's mind. So if we make a LAW out of having everything the way it was on the table at the Last Supper, then we are going to have to follow ALL laws, right? I would say that the topic of wine vs. grapejuice and the topic of unleavened bread would be two different cases. One deals with sobriety and the other with legalism. Let Communion be exactly what Christ said, that we should "Do this in remembrance of Me." For that's what Communion is all about more than the ingredients. We take it to "REMEMBER," and unleavened bread isn't going to be found just everywhere (1 Cor. 11:24). But with today's modern churches? We're blessed if any even heard of communion, because very little is preached from the original manuscripts anymore. So we've got to find a church that still knows the original Gospel the way it was preached by the early church in the Book of Acts, which was the original church role model. Does that help? 1Cor. 2:2 "For I determined to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified," which makes every other topic pale in comparison. Make that verse your bottom line and all the rest fall into place.

 

[judge not]

I celebrate it with unleavened bread and real wine.

Jesus identifies leaven as a symbol of sin- Matthew 16:6-12, Mark 8:15

Wine is used in the Bible.

You only need a very small amount of each for the observance.

 

[james1523]

thanks for your response james. It has been my understanding that Christ says (Matthew 26:26) "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body." So in the picture of the ceremony the bread is his body, which we can agree was sinless. If leaven is a picture of sin in scripture then in my opinion we should not be using leavened bread as a sign of respect at the very least, but i suppose you are right that it is not clearly defined. I also suppose in contradiction to myself that we being freed from the law that it doesn't really matter so long as we are worshiping in spirit and in truth.

Yes. You know one church I used to go to, we used rice crackers and apple juice.

 

[farout]

Just about every Pastor has a funny story of something thing that went wrong in Baptism or the Lords Supper. I too have a funny time while having the Lords Supper.

The Womans Mission Union always prepred the LOrds Supper. One Sunday morning the Elders passed out the the Unlevened Bread (little bits of soda crackers). After I read the Scripture and prayed over it, I said "take and eat in rmemberence of Him. All of a sudden people were aking choking and gasping. Some how the ladies got Garlic crackers instead of soda crackers. Many had to get up and have a drink of water. we all got over it, but I will never forget it.


farout