Christians Always Met on the Lord's Day not the Sabbath

[DHC]

Human nature, the carnal mind is enmity against God. Remember that repentance and the forgiveness of sins is but the first step towards salvation. Overcoming the earthy pulls of this world is a lifelong process.
" For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law are justified....." Romans 2 covers a lot of God's principles on this issue.
Why would Jesus urge us to overcome if there is nothing further we must do once we have accepted Him as Savior?
The Bible says we must live a life of struggling against sin-being a Christian is not a free ride to salvation.

Hello judge not.

I do appreciate your sincerity and your post in general.

You did not answer the question that I asked, if you do not wish to answer
the question, then that is o.k. judge not.

Paul the Hebrew of Hebrews, declared in Romans 7, that even the law abiding elite
failed to obey the law. As a Christian any attempt to obey the law will also result
in failure. Which you supported by the reference to the willful sin you commit.
No attempt to achieve a "law of righteousness" will succeed, it is your flesh that
is the culprit.

Paul's advice was for the Gentiles is not to pursue a legal form of righteousness.

Galatians 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law;
you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything,
but faith working through love.

Rather, it by faith that our righteousness is given to us as a gift. It is the very
righteousness of Christ that is ours because we believed the Gospel.

 

[papajim]

Hello judge not.

You did state that a person must obey the ten commandments.

Consider the following argument.

If a person obeys the ten commandments, the legal
code, the "law of righteousness" and believes in Jesus
Christ. Which appears to be the theology of some on TJ.

But this person is impure in thought, sensual, creates strife,
is constantly jealous of others and their success. Has an explosive
temperament, is drunk on occasion, plays up to pretty women, etc.

Is that person saved?

1 John 3
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
(This is the behavior of the unrighteous)
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
(In Jesus is no sin, no lawlessness)
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
( No one in Christ can sin, anyone who does sin does not know Him)
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is
righteous, just as He is righteous;
( We have the righteousness of Christ, we practice righteousness)
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
(Living in sin is unrighteousness, of the devil)
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him;
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(You cannot sin if you are born again, born of Christ, fact!)
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does
not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
( Fruit of the spirit within is the evidence, patience, kindness, love, etc)

Hello DHC, this is a quote from you on the sanctification vs justification thread,

I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from DHC, If you agree that we are freed from sin, and sin is transgressing the law, and another talks about obedience to the law which is what being free from sin is, and you disagree, it seems you are bouncing around or trying to be argumentive. If you disagree with the order in which the law is kept, then come at it from a different direction than you are, so that it is not so confusing. If you feel you need to go back to Romans 6 to explain yourself then do so, it should clear up a lot of confusion. Thanks.

 

[DHC]

Hello DHC, this is a quote from you on the sanctification vs justification thread,

I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from DHC, If you agree that we are freed from sin, and sin is transgressing the law, and another talks about obedience to the law which is what being free from sin is, and you disagree, it seems you are bouncing around or trying to be argumentive. If you disagree with the order in which the law is kept, then come at it from a different direction than you are, so that it is not so confusing. If you feel you need to go back to Romans 6 to explain yourself then do so, it should clear up a lot of confusion. Thanks.

Hello Papajim.

The view that "sin is lawlessness" is the viewpoint of a person
raised in the legal system of Israel. That is why this perspective
is often emphasised in the letters of the New Testament. As it
is in John's letter, I did not state that I agreed with the statement
that sin is lawlessness. Anything that is not of faith is sin for me.

Jews wrote the New Testament Papajim, not Gentiles.

For a Gentile such as myself, who was not raised with a
knowledge of the legal system of Israel. It is impossible
for me to identify with the commandments. Conviction
of sin in my instance was the work of the Holy Spirit.
In our country our buildings never had the ten commandments
written on the walls. Never was the "ten" mentioned by anyone,
nor was it part of the education system.

Many of my sinful deeds did not correspond with the
overly simple ten commandments. My sin lay within the
deeds of the flesh which Paul explains in Galatians. See the
sins listed in red Papajim.

Galatians 5
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you,
just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1) I could not commit idolatry since I did not know who God was!
I was not raised in Israel under the law, the covenant. I live in a
godless society Papajim, our society is not like yours.

2) Adultery I did commit, but this was far exceeded by fornication.

3) I had not committed murder no conviction on that front.

4) As for the sabbath day, in our country we work on this day.
Zero conviction regarding the sabbath day.

5) There is no law against excess alcohol consumption.

6) No law regarding illicit drug use.

7) No law for sorcery.

8) No law against debuachery and brawling.

9) No law covering self righteousness.

10) No law covering foul language.

Shall I continue?

I am sorry that in my case the ten commandments are
not of much use for the purpose of conviction.

 

[james1523]

Hello James,
You are refering to Col.2:14-20 and your right in the sense that there were other sabbaths in the law given to Israel, and if you notice in Col.2;20 "Wherfore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why as through living in the world are ye subject to ordinances." God's law was never an ordinance. The ordinances were written by the hand of Moses, the ten commandments were written by God, and the 7th day sabbath was in the law written by God. The 7th day sabbath was also under the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant with the other nine.

QUOTE=james1523;223785]Notice that Ex.31:13 is speaking only to the "children of Israel". The Sabbath was a sign for the Israelites. In the OT the Israelites were the only people on the whole Earth whom God chose and set apart for Himself. God only sanctified the Jews in the Old Testament, and if a Gentile wished to also participate, they had to become a Jew.

Who is it that represents God now James? the people that carry the message has changed, the truth has not changed. God did sanctify the Jews in the old testament who is it that is sanctified us now? Those that except the truth in Christ. We are now the light of the world.

"and if a Gentile wished to also participate, they had to become a Jew."



This is correct James, look at this on a grander scale. God spent 1500 years speaking the truth to Israel, after the 1500 years the truth came in the flesh and the truth was magnified and brought to life in Jesus. All those that believe in Jesus become a Jew, it is not the nation that is important to be a Jew, but the message, that is important to be a Jew. We are adopted into the truth as it is in Jesus
Gal. 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." You and I are from the seed of Abraham, and the promise, becomes our birthright, through faith.

If we are fearful that keeping the Sabbath will lead to us breaking the commandments and incur God's wrath, we have not fully entered into the reality of Christ as our Lord and Savior and our all in everything.

Actually it works in the reverse. The sabbath was about relationship teaching us how the ten were to be kept. It is only through our love for God that we can be obedient to the law, not something we do on our own, but through the imparted love of God working in us. God wanted us to spend the sabbath with Him, to put all of our worldy cares aside and bring our families to Him in worship. He wanted us to spend the day together, that is what the sabbath was meant for. A day He chose not a day we choose. We except by the sabbath by faith even if it dosen't make sense to us for the simple reason that God commanded us to, in the law. "The sabbath was made for man" it was part of creation, created on the 7th day of the creation week. God said it was His holy day, how do you change that?
[/QUOTE]

You may be correct. All of the old protestant bible commentaries I read state that the Sabbath has not past away, it is still in effect for Christians to keep. There is difference between the sabbaths and ordinances, and the Sabbath in the 10 commandments. Seemingly only in modern times do we find the belief that the 10 commandments no longer apply including the 7th day Sabbath. The Roman Catholic church changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday and so did all Protestant churches follow suit. So to read that the old bible commentaries support your position is to me no surprise . Although I understand that their definition of Sabbath is the Sunday day of rest, going to church etc, rather than the 7th day.

 

[papajim]

Hello Papajim.

The view that "sin is lawlessness" is the viewpoint of a person
raised in the legal system of Israel. That is why this perspective
is often emphasised in the letters of the New Testament. As it
is in John's letter, I did not state that I agreed with the statement
that sin is lawlessness. Anything that is not of faith is sin for me.

Jews wrote the New Testament Papajim, not Gentiles.

For a Gentile such as myself, who was not raised with a
knowledge of the legal system of Israel. It is impossible
for me to identify with the commandments. Conviction
of sin in my instance was the work of the Holy Spirit.
In our country our buildings never had the ten commandments
written on the walls. Never was the "ten" mentioned by anyone,
nor was it part of the education system.

Many of my sinful deeds did not correspond with the
overly simple ten commandments. My sin lay within the
deeds of the flesh which Paul explains in Galatians. See the
sins listed in red Papajim.

Galatians 5
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you,
just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1) I could not commit idolatry since I did not know who God was!
I was not raised in Israel under the law, the covenant. I live in a
godless society Papajim, our society is not like yours.

2) Adultery I did commit, but this was far exceeded by fornication.

3) I had not committed murder no conviction on that front.

4) As for the sabbath day, in our country we work on this day.
Zero conviction regarding the sabbath day.

5) There is no law against excess alcohol consumption.

6) No law regarding illicit drug use.

7) No law for sorcery.

8) No law against debuachery and brawling.

9) No law covering self righteousness.

10) No law covering foul language.

Shall I continue?

I am sorry that in my case the ten commandments are
not of much use for the purpose of conviction.

You don't need to apoligize DHC,
God will still lead you into all truth with the Holy Spirit if you continue to be faithful.
The law or ten commandments might be used by the U.S. but it still came from the bible. Sunday observance is not biblical, sabbath keeping is, and yet almost all of the christian world follows the day of the sun. In the old testament this was an abomination to God and still is. The battle in the bible has never changed, it is those that believe God and worship Him, and those that worship pagan gods or something other than the true God. Truth is, and always will be truth, no matter what peoples carry it. It has to be consistant because it comes from God, and God is truth.

Jesus was a sabbath keeper though He did not keep it as the Jewish people did, but He brought a greater meaning to it. He did the same thing with adultry He took the commandment and gave more details concerning adultry as you have already mentioned. All sin comes from within the heart and is extended through our actions. All righteousness comes from the heart and is extended through our actions. If the flesh is within, Jesus will be crucified in us, and we will do the works of the flesh, if God is within, the flesh will be crucified, and He will reflect in our actions. Sin and righteousness are contrary one to the other, and cannot coexist in the heart at the same time.

All laws had their specific purposes. There were laws regarding health, laws regarding sexual immorality of all different sorts, laws against the world of spiritualism, there was the great moral law given and written down by God Himself. There were also laws regarding the sanctuary service, and this was how God was going to deal with the sin problem, which was disobedience to the great moral law. The ten commandments were under the mercy seat, because the mercy seat represented Christ showing mercy over the law, or over sin. The sanctuay service was an amazing set of laws teaching us the plan of salavation in Christ, from the slaying of the lamb to the cleansing of the sanctuary and the placing of blood on the goat and being led into the wilderness to die. All explain how God deals with the sin problem. All this teaches us the work of our High Priest. If you study the sanctuary service you will find the work of the high priest represented the work of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary which Paul spoke of in the book of Hebrews. John also saw the heavenly sanctuary and the work of our High Priest in the book of Revelation.
When Jesus died the curtain in the sanctuary dividing the holy place from the most holy place was torn in two, showing that the law of ordinces had come to an end, because Christ was and is the fullment of these laws. The sin problem had been dealt with, sin was destroyed in Christ. Now comes the issue of faith, which is the ministry of the High Priest applying His blood to the sinner, so that through faith he recieves the imputed righteousness of God in Christ, this was given to us at the cross and resurrection of Jesus.
This applies to all of humanity not just the Jewish nation. As I have said before the Jews were given the truth to be the light of the world, but more often than not they went ******* after false gods, the gods of the pagan countries.
If we would realize that the truth has always been the same, because it is truth and cannot be changed, it would take a lot of confusion out of the christian world. We have to realize that God throughout the old and new testaments was teaching the same truth, but in the new testament it went from the Jews to all that would believe, the truth only changed hands from the Jews to the believers.

 

[judge not]

Hello judge not.

I do appreciate your sincerity and your post in general.

You did not answer the question that I asked, if you do not wish to answer
the question, then that is o.k. judge not.

Paul the Hebrew of Hebrews, declared in Romans 7, that even the law abiding elite
failed to obey the law. As a Christian any attempt to obey the law will also result
in failure. Which you supported by the reference to the willful sin you commit.
No attempt to achieve a "law of righteousness" will succeed, it is your flesh that
is the culprit.



Paul's advice was for the Gentiles is not to pursue a legal form of righteousness.

Galatians 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law;
you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything,
but faith working through love.

Rather, it by faith that our righteousness is given to us as a gift. It is the very
righteousness of Christ that is ours because we believed the Gospel.

The bible says belief and faith is not enough.
" Faith if it hath not works is dead, being alone"
" Faith is made perfect by works"
One big part of works is obedience to God and His commandments.
Sin is breaking any of God's commandments.
There would have to be a transition made to conform to God's commandments in order to receive salvation.
Jesus said -If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love..
One must practice righteousness in order to be counted righteous by God- 1John 3;7
and being obedient to the commandments is one of the first steps.

I said salvation is a lifelong process-we are begotten children of God now that need to grow in the truth with salvation being our promise for obedience and love towards God at the time of our resurrection-then we are saved. Saved means rescued from being cast into the lake of fire-so far that hasn't happened so we are on the road to salvation and it's a narrow with a lot of obstacles, that's where overcoming develops us.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

The bible says belief and faith is not enough.
" Faith if it hath not works is dead, being alone"
" Faith is made perfect by works"
One big part of works is obedience to God and His commandments

That's the truth but the works he is speaking of is this:
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

I said salvation is a lifelong process-we are begotten children of God now that need to grow in the truth with salvation being our promise for obedience and love towards God at the time of our resurrection-then we are saved.

Saved is a term that has many uses and seems to mean something slightly different to everyone so if you mean eternal life then knowing
God and the one whom God sent "is" eternal life.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Saved means rescued from being cast into the lake of fire-

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

We can walk in it now, as opposed to being cast in it.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

If we would realize that the truth has always been the same, because it is truth and cannot be changed, it would take a lot of confusion out of the christian world. We have to realize that God throughout the old and new testaments was teaching the same truth, but in the new testament it went from the Jews to all that would believe, the truth only changed hands from the Jews to the believers.

The truth has never changed but man's perception of the truth changes constantly.

Jesus said "I am the truth".
John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

The truth then is a person and that person told us the truth about every person who was not the truth.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

The law and Moses could never bring life they can only take it away so they are not truth,in fact they are thieves.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I would even venture to say that all who came after him are thieves and robbers otherwise they would bring life.
It seems to me that Jesus was lifted up between two thieves.

 

[Barny]

The bible says belief and faith is not enough.
" Faith if it hath not works is dead, being alone"
" Faith is made perfect by works"
One big part of works is obedience to God and His commandments.
Sin is breaking any of God's commandments.
There would have to be a transition made to conform to God's commandments in order to receive salvation.
Jesus said -If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love..
One must practice righteousness in order to be counted righteous by God- 1John 3;7
and being obedient to the commandments is one of the first steps.

I said salvation is a lifelong process-we are begotten children of God now that need to grow in the truth with salvation being our promise for obedience and love towards God at the time of our resurrection-then we are saved. Saved means rescued from being cast into the lake of fire-so far that hasn't happened so we are on the road to salvation and it's a narrow with a lot of obstacles, that's where overcoming develops us.

Hi judge not,

I hope you don't mind my saying that you seem to be proposing a doctrine of works of the law which is at odds with your blog name.

But I agree with Thiscrosshurts.
Our works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.

And we keep his commandments, as 1John 3:22-23 describes.
1: Believe in Jesus.
2: Love one another.

And how do we do righteousness?
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

But, if we add the law to the above, then that is being lukewarm.
We cannot mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6.

 

[papajim]

The truth has never changed but man's perception of the truth changes constantly.

Jesus said "I am the truth".
John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

The truth then is a person and that person told us the truth about every person who was not the truth.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

The law and Moses could never bring life they can only take it away so they are not truth,in fact they are thieves.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I would even venture to say that all who came after him are thieves and robbers otherwise they would bring life.
It seems to me that Jesus was lifted up between two thieves.

I'm not sure I agree with this thiscrosshurts. It was Christ that gave the law to Moses so it came from the truth and Moses was directly instructed by Christ who is the truth, so then he could not have been a theif. Maybe I am missing something here.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I'm not sure I agree with this thiscrosshurts. It was Christ that gave the law to Moses so it came from the truth and Moses was directly instructed by Christ who is the truth, so then he could not have been a theif. Maybe I am missing something here.

Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.

Acts 7:53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it."

The new testament tells us that the law was given to Moses by Angels.
Angels are prone to error or at least misunderstanding God's plan and purpose for mankind.

Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
Job 15:15 If God places no trust in his holy ones, if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes,
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

 

[judge not]

Hi judge not,

I hope you don't mind my saying that you seem to be proposing a doctrine of works of the law which is at odds with your blog name.

But I agree with Thiscrosshurts.
Our works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.

And we keep his commandments, as 1John 3:22-23 describes.
1: Believe in Jesus.
2: Love one another.

And how do we do righteousness?
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

But, if we add the law to the above, then that is being lukewarm.
We cannot mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6.

Hello, I adhere to the understanding of faith and works-my quotes are from James 2: 14-26

Looking at Romans 3:31 right now- " Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

To believe in the one He has sent means we should also believe what He says- " keep my commandments" for one.

I'll think about changing my name to judge maybe.

 

[judge not]

That's the truth but the works he is speaking of is this:
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."



Saved is a term that has many uses and seems to mean something slightly different to everyone so if you mean eternal life then knowing
God and the one whom God sent "is" eternal life.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.



Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

We can walk in it now, as opposed to being cast in it.

With John 17:3 - I believe what Jesus is defining to the Father is those as spirit beings in God's family-we will truly know Him, the Father, and Jesus while we are spending eternity with God in His realm-the world of Spirit and all power
versus
just knowing about God on earth from teachings and study.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

With John 17:3 - I believe what Jesus is defining to the Father is those as spirit beings in God's family-we will truly know Him, the Father, and Jesus while we are spending eternity with God in His realm-the world of Spirit and all power.

I like the way you explain that and I agree.

versus just knowing about God on earth from teachings and study.

I agree there is a difference between knowing about God and knowing God.
There is more to consider though since there is no time in the spirit.

e·ter·nal
adj.
1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
2. Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
3. Forever true or changeless: eternal truths.
4. Seemingly endless; interminable. See Synonyms at ageless, continual.
5. Of or relating to spiritual communion with God, especially in the afterlife.

Since there is no beginning or end to eternal then we are there now although we don't readily perceive it.

I believe scripture bears that out:
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Time is relative to mass and speed in this universe but spirit is not bound to the laws of this universe.

John chapter 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

This verse shows that the relationship is for this world not the next.
How would the world see this perfect oneness if you are dead.

 

[judge not]

I like the way you explain that and I agree.



I agree there is a difference between knowing about God and knowing God.
There is more to consider though since there is no time in the spirit.

e·ter·nal
adj.
1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
2. Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
3. Forever true or changeless: eternal truths.
4. Seemingly endless; interminable. See Synonyms at ageless, continual.
5. Of or relating to spiritual communion with God, especially in the afterlife.

Since there is no beginning or end to eternal then we are there now although we don't readily perceive it.

I believe scripture bears that out:
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


Maybe we are in the possible semi-eternal class. We are created beings. We had a beginning.
Angels are spiritual beings and were created-they had a beginning. and some of them will be destroyed according to Revelation.
God had no beginning-He always was and always will be-hard for us to understand sometimes
When we are changed to spirit from flesh we will be receiving the promise of eternal life and will continue forever in God's kingdom.

 

[DHC]

The law or ten commandments might be used by the U.S. but it still came from the bible. Sunday observance is not biblical, sabbath keeping is, and yet almost all of the christian world follows the day of the sun.

Sabbath means "seventh day" not saturday. (Genesis 2:3)
Saturn (Latin: Saturnus) was a god in ancient Roman religion.
Saturn the planet and Saturday are both named after this god.
Sda follow the day of Saturnas. Why do you worship saturn?
Sabbath keeping was given to national Israel and to no other nation.

The battle in the bible has never changed, it is those that believe God and worship Him, and those that worship pagan gods or something other than the true God. Truth is, and always will be truth, no matter what peoples carry it. It has to be consistant because it comes from God, and God is truth.

This idea that a battle rages in the Bible regarding the sabbath or idolatry
is not true at all. Life and Death was the battle ground that God surveyed.
Death was introduced through Adam and all died. Even if a person loved
God and obeyed the sabbath they died, they fell on the battlefield.
Even babies who had not sinned died, there were no exceptions.
The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23).

Romans 5
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had
not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Jesus was a sabbath keeper though He did not keep it as the Jewish people did,

No one kept the sabbath or any other law, the flesh is unable to obey the law.

Biblical truth, is and always has been the same, the promise of the
messiah is and only is what the scripture proclaims. This is the crowning
revelation of all scripture, The Revelation and Reconciliation of Jesus Christ.
The law pointed directly to the messiah. Prophets proclaimed the identity and
majesty of the messiah, behold the true King of Heaven and Hell will be here soon.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life;

Jesus is the truth, the absolute truth.
The testimony of Jesus Christ is also absolute truth.
You and I the created images of God Himself, have been reconciled
through His Son Jesus Christ. This is the revelation of the scripture
and you will do well to place great emphasis on this TRUTH. Not
undermine this eternal revelation with prattle concerning a twelve hour
period of the week.

Please interpret the following verse and get back to me;

Romans 5:20
The Law came in so that the transgression would increase;
but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

 

[DHC]

I like the way you explain that and I agree.



I agree there is a difference between knowing about God and knowing God.
There is more to consider though since there is no time in the spirit.

e·ter·nal
adj.
1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
2. Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
3. Forever true or changeless: eternal truths.
4. Seemingly endless; interminable. See Synonyms at ageless, continual.
5. Of or relating to spiritual communion with God, especially in the afterlife.

Since there is no beginning or end to eternal then we are there now although we don't readily perceive it.
Time is relative to mass and speed in this universe but spirit is not bound to the laws of this universe.

Hello ThisCrossHurts.

We are there, but not yet there, it is done, but not yet finished.

I noticed your reference to the relativity of time ThisCrossHurts.

The trouble with time started a century ago, when Einstein’s special and general theories of relativity
demolished the idea of time as a universal constant. One consequence is that the past, present, and future
are not absolutes. Einstein’s theories also opened a rift in physics because the rules of general relativity
(which describe gravity and the large-scale structure of the cosmos) seem incompatible with those of
quantum physics (which govern the realm of the tiny). Discover Magazine, 2013.

Methinks to avoid being a bonehead one needs to live in, and by the Spirit.
Otherwise, the head hurts trying to understand that which may well be far
beyond understanding.

 

[Barny]

Hello, I adhere to the understanding of faith and works-my quotes are from James 2: 14-26
Looking at Romans 3:31 right now- " Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
To believe in the one He has sent means we should also believe what He says- " keep my commandments" for one.
I'll think about changing my name to judge maybe.

Unfortunately we're both speaking of different works and different commandments that result in different outcomes.

The 2 sides of the debate that are often seen in forums are outlined below.

Group 1: Those saved by grace alone.
Their works that shows their faith is believing in Jesus, John 6:29.
They're justified by faith without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28.
Their faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
The commandments they keep are to believe in Jesus and love one another, 1John 3:23.
Here, to believe in Jesus results in life everlasting. Example: the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord". This thief had no deeds/obedience to the law to show for himself. Instead he believed in Jesus and was saved.

Group 2: Those who mix grace with works of the law.
Their works that allegedly shows their faith is perfect obedience to the law. But, as they never attain this, some then argue that some ambiguous lessor level of obedience is acceptable to God.
Obedience to the law (which is allegedy achieved through faith) is seen as doing righteousness.
The commandments they (try to) keep is the OT law which includes the 10 commandments. This is also referred to as the law of sin and death Rom 8:2, the law of righteousness Rom 9:31, and also as ministry of condemnation/death, 2Cor 3:7.
Here, the view is that to believe in Jesus results in evidence of obedience (whether perfect or some ambiguous lessor level) to the law. If one has this so called obedience then it is believed that they are abiding in Christ and saved. If one does not meet the minimum level of evidence of deeds/obedience to the law, then they are condemned/lost.

I'm sure you would agree these are both 2 very different gospels.
Only one of them is correct.

 

[judge not]

Unfortunately we're both speaking of different works and different commandments that result in different outcomes.

The 2 sides of the debate that are often seen in forums are outlined below.

Group 1: Those saved by grace alone.
Their works that shows their faith is believing in Jesus, John 6:29.
They're justified by faith without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28.
Their faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
The commandments they keep are to believe in Jesus and love one another, 1John 3:23.
Here, to believe in Jesus results in life everlasting. Example: the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord". This thief had no deeds/obedience to the law to show for himself. Instead he believed in Jesus and was saved.

Group 2: Those who mix grace with works of the law.
Their works that allegedly shows their faith is perfect obedience to the law. But, as they never attain this, some then argue that some ambiguous lessor level of obedience is acceptable to God.
Obedience to the law (which is allegedy achieved through faith) is seen as doing righteousness.
The commandments they (try to) keep is the OT law which includes the 10 commandments. This is also referred to as the law of sin and death Rom 8:2, the law of righteousness Rom 9:31, and also as ministry of condemnation/death, 2Cor 3:7.
Here, the view is that to believe in Jesus results in evidence of obedience (whether perfect or some ambiguous lessor level) to the law. If one has this so called obedience then it is believed that they are abiding in Christ and saved. If one does not meet the minimum level of evidence of deeds/obedience to the law, then they are condemned/lost.

I'm sure you would agree these are both 2 very different gospels.
Only one of them is correct.

I would hope a person would choose group 2.

The thief on the cross rationale is an exception to the rule and under the circumstances Jesus can bypass the usual commands that He teaches about keeping the Law and the requirements for salvation especially under those deadly circumstances.

If Jesus is the supreme authority of the Bible we have to follow him with what He says- Matt 19:17

If some scriptures say Faith is necessary for salvation we have to look at all scripture combined (the big picture) that includes faith and works and choose the side that calls for both just to be sure.

Did Jesus teach His disciples that obedience was necessary- of course, John 8:31, John 14:21, 23-24

 

[Barny]

I would hope a person would choose group 2.

The thief on the cross rationale is an exception to the rule and under the circumstances Jesus can bypass the usual commands that He teaches about keeping the Law and the requirements for salvation especially under those deadly circumstances.

If Jesus is the supreme authority of the Bible we have to follow him with what He says- Matt 19:17

If some scriptures say Faith is necessary for salvation we have to look at all scripture combined (the big picture) that includes faith and works and choose the side that calls for both just to be sure.

Did Jesus teach His disciples that obedience was necessary- of course, John 8:31, John 14:21, 23-24

I not surprised with your answer. We do both follow very different gospels.

The thief on the cross is a clear contradiction to your gospel. Your "exception to the rule" rationale implies that God is unjust, and that those who are saved on their death beds are truly blessed over all who live on as Christians, thanks to the luck of circumstance.

We both argue to obey God, but we both see each other as being in disobedience.

Unfortunately the doctrine your follow is a lukewarm mix of grace with works of the law. God rejects this, Rev 3:16.
You cannot mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6

I'm curious whether you are of the view that perfect obedience to the law is required or whether some lessor, yet acceptable level of obedience is okay with God?