I notice that your churches statement of faith has unity in essentials. I have some questions: Does your church require membership in order to attend, participate in the communion bread and wine or is faith in Jesus Christ enough? Does your church accept fellowship with those who disagree with their statement of faith? Does one need to accept all parts of the statement of faith in order to be a member? For example.. all of the statements seem essential to me except one - the one about eternal security which does not seem essential to me...
Baptist doctrine?
- Thread starter ushalk
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I notice that your churches statement of faith has unity in essentials. I have some questions: Does your church require membership in order to attend, participate in the communion bread and wine or is faith in Jesus Christ enough? Does your church accept fellowship with those who disagree with their statement of faith? Does one need to accept all parts of the statement of faith in order to be a member? For example.. all of the statements seem essential to me except one - the one about eternal security which does not seem essential to me...
Strypes
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sintheticg
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I've studied the occult far too much to accept that, their symbolism is all over the new king james and onward. I dont have a problem with newer translations until someone starts quoting one telling me Jesus is not God, then i have to take the conversation to KJV or we can just agree to disagree... Jesus is clearly part of the trinity and 100% God. I just had a debate on another forum with someone on the very subject and he managed to use the NIV to make it seem like Jesus was created, I suspected he was a Mormon because they believe Jesus is an angel (and satans brother) but I read somewhere mormons use the KJV they just accept and contradiction found in the writings of Joseph Smith as authority over the bible.
The conversation lead me to write a pretty extensive sermon presentation on Jesus the High Priest, Perfect sacrifice, and God hood.
If the english bible has words added to it then shouldn't we reject it? (Revelation 22:18-19) "¶For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: {19} And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
To reject a perfect translation in our language you are basically telling me I'll be blotted from the book of life if I don't learn hebrew and greek. I have a heard time believing God is that short sited and didn't ordain a plan from the beginning.
No disappointment brother, I certainly enjoy discussion.
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That idea of non-denominational pride is interesting because the multi concept is generally a cop out for not defining ones own beliefs, but desiring a righteous position without consideration.
Personally I go to a Baptist church but I know I wouldn't believe certain things pertaining to what the majority may think on certain non-essential doctrine, but nonetheless important doctrinal differences.
These I keep to myself so as not to offend because they are Christian brothers.
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Boanerges
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Read the Word and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you what He wants you to know and do. No matter where I fellowship, no matter how much I love the brethren there, I always put the Word of God first. Of course no two people will ever agree 100% on everything, but that should not keep us from loving each other in His Name.
DHC
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Hello folks.
Some very interesting posts, and a good deal of variation.
Please, if you could be so kind, post more "statements of faith"
and "church constitutions". I enjoy reading these.
Just a small point that some on TJ may not be aware of.
Baptism is the external sign of a deep and profound commitment
to Jesus Christ. You are baptized into the very death of Jesus Christ.
You are a new creation as a result of this baptism, all things are new
for you. Your flesh died with Christ, and you receive the Holy Spirit.
You have become spiritual, in the spirit there is no law or legalism.
Only in the personal death of a person in Christ is freedom from sin
assured. Please read the following;
Romans 6
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death,
so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father,
so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly
we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our
body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
Interesting reading is it not, is this in your church constitution?
Some very interesting posts, and a good deal of variation.
Please, if you could be so kind, post more "statements of faith"
and "church constitutions". I enjoy reading these.
Just a small point that some on TJ may not be aware of.
Baptism is the external sign of a deep and profound commitment
to Jesus Christ. You are baptized into the very death of Jesus Christ.
You are a new creation as a result of this baptism, all things are new
for you. Your flesh died with Christ, and you receive the Holy Spirit.
You have become spiritual, in the spirit there is no law or legalism.
Only in the personal death of a person in Christ is freedom from sin
assured. Please read the following;
Romans 6
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death,
so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father,
so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly
we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our
body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
Interesting reading is it not, is this in your church constitution?
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Not sure about Mormons but I know that Jehovah Witness also use KJV... in addition to their own book. It's funny because the KJV is strongly Trinitarian, thanks to the Church of England, but they must ignore those verses.
Jesus is certainly God but you seem to see Him as only part of the Trinity. I believe Jesus Christ is not only part of the Trinity He is also the complete Trinity, He is the I AM (John 8:58) , He is the Father (Isaiah 9:6, John 14:9) , Son and Holy Spirit (2 Cor 3:17). Jesus Christ is the embodiment of the complete Trinity.
The book of Revelation was a standalone book for many decades before being included in the Canon of Scripture. So I believe the warning in Revelation 22:18-19 applies only to the book of Revelation (as it says, 'this book'), and it cannot mean adding in the sense of adding more detail to help the reader understand. The italics in the KJV are the words or verses that were added to the bible that were not in the original, they are italicized so the reader knows they were not in the original Greek or Hebrew. This does not mean it is adding to God's Word... without them the KJV would be unreadable.
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sintheticg
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thanks for your response. I too believe Jesus is 100% God there for all parts of the trinity. the trinity is 3 distinct persons but all persons are the One and only God, the alpha and omega. The only analogy I can draw is to talk about dimensions. you and I see in 3dimensions and exist in a 4th dimension of time. a 2dimensional being on a chalk board would have a very limited view of our universe, If i wanted to show myself to the being I could stick my finger through the chalk board, but he'd just see a cross section of a finger. I think of God as existing in all dimensions including the 6+ known dimensions that we cannot see but can mathematically prove. In order for God to show himself to our limited view, he had to do it a particular way, and apparently the trinity is his solution to reveal himself to us.
thank you for clarifying your position on the italicized words. I agree that those were added to translate correctly, it was done by some 50 scholars over 7 years (funny enough, 7 is the number of perfection) and it was all peer reviewed in a circular fashion so that none was done of private interpretation.
I suppose that is my issue with newer versions, especially ones that are copywritted...
I can see your argument about revelation, and shall study the issue farther for sure, thanks for your input brother. May our discussion be to exhort one another and not to win a debate.
Shouldn't this be interpreted as, "we are in the process of dieing to self", that we are of those who have been freed from sin?.......I think so, what do you reckon?
In other words, the death process is incomplete. The death of self though nonetheless is finished! Yes?
Totally in agreement with your post, are you a Baptist?
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Boanerges
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You have yet to prove even one.
sintheticg
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is there scripture in context that shows eternal security is false?
I think eternal security, is not such a big issue or problem. What is it going to matter if we do or don't believe in it, it won't change the reality. Bigger issues are rejection of gifts of the Spirit, particularly prophesy, for edification of the Body. Without the gifts functioning there is little spiritual growth. Now this has some effect on an individuals and churches spiritual health.
sintheticg
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I believe eternal security is important 1) because it's in God's word and 2) because it shows his grace is sufficient, it also shows that salvation by faith alone is not a bondage or religion, but is a relationship with God.
Service is no longer "I have to God said so" but it's "I get to, because I love him as He loved me."
by prophesy I assume you mean looking at the signs of the times, since we are told no new prophecy will be coming?
Not this prophecy
the gift of prophecy, which is the inspired preaching and speaking of the Word for strengthening the church: 1 Cor 14. Which the apostle Paul said we should desire the most..that all may prophesy... and which few of us desire it, and few churches even believe in it, and even fewer actually practice it. God's work on the Earth is two things - redemption and building His church. I cannot see that a doctrine about eternal security matters to either of these works. A person who does not believe in eternal security will still be saved as much as a person who does believe in it. There is no eternal value in believing or not believing this doctrine. There would be value in encouraging someone with the doctrine of eternal security, if it gives them peace and comfort... but not to debate about the matter. But there is eternal value in building and strengthening the church through prophesy and other spiritual gifts.sintheticg
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Not this prophecy
(1 Corinthians 13:8-12) "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. {9} For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. {10} But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. {11} When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. {12} For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
Now that we have the bible which is the living word, the literal mind of Christ, we no longer need "tongues" ect. We have a more sure word of prophecy in the bible. Remember as the bible is being written the only way to prove you were of God was to perform these miracles, because no one had a bible to test whether or not you were telling the truth. Now that which is perfect has come, and we thus that which was in part is done away.
I believe in gifts certainly, but i prefer to clarify what gifts we are talking about because some have really run away with "gifts" claiming that you don't have the spirit of God unless you're speaking in tongues, which is false. I also like to read through Acts and show these folks that tongues is not blabbering like a bafoon but when an apostle spoke on the day of pentacost, every man heard in their own native language. So if I spoke a sentance, a german would hear in german, a chinese fellow would hear in chinese, ect. If I don't understand what you are saying, you aren't speaking in tongues.
That's true, well according to my post I was talking about the most important gift which is prophesy not tongues and prophesying being the preaching of the Word i.e. the Bible as I said in my previous post. Jesus is the Living Word (John 1:1) and the Bible is certainly the Words of Christ but whether they are the living Word to us depends upon whether we read the bible in spirit or in the letter, as John 5:39 says life is not in the Scriptures but in Christ. So even though we have the Bible we still need prophesy to speak those Words to us as spirit and life for our encouragement. Also we need prophesy so we know exactly what words of the Bible we are to speak or preach. The Bible is a very big book and we cannot know which verses to preach to the hearers unless we depend upon the Spirit of God. This is the difference between preaching dead letters like the Pharisees did and imparting the Spirit of life to the hearers through the spoken Word of God. Now the situation in most churches is to have one man e.g. the pastor speaking and the rest of the congregation silent and listening. No one is using the gift of prophesy except perhaps the pastor. The same situation occurs Sunday after Sunday. This is in contrast to Paul's exhortation to desire the best gifts and that we may all prophesy (1 Cor 14:31). I hope that makes sense.
sintheticg
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I'm glad we are on the same page. As someone who knows he is being called to preach I must say I appriciate this point of view as I do yearn to teach but don't want my pastor to feel I'm after his job.
Rev T.S.Perkins
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Imho the only label we have claim to is men and women saved by grace all else is warned about In the word ...let no divisions come between the family of God .that includes doctrines ( mans condition teachings ) or any thing else such as doctrinal pride ....but to rever each other in the love of one Christ our Lord and savior......in love. Rev
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Boanerges
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That is your interpretation for sure.
