The Controlled Fall

[NetChaplain]

"You can be born again into the image of Christ and never be bothered by the laws of Christ". Similar to what is being discussed on another thread...a form of godliness without the power.

Hi Brakelight and God's blessings to your Family! Thanks for your reply, which I find somewhat instructional. I would like to share my thoughts concerning the above quote. I understand that one born-again can still be highly carnal (1 Cor 3:3) until the Lord's chastisement takes them into maturity, but I do not believe they (unless you mean one who just professes to be born-again) could ever come to the place of only having "a form of godliness", as Scripture attributes this phrase to the unbeliever (1 Tim 3).

My replies are only intended for truth's sake and never out of competition (which I believe is the same for you), because I believe the more we are willing to share with one another for the right reason, the more the Lord can teach us.

His best to you Brother!

 

[brakelite]

Hi. Somewhat instructional????:shock: And here's me thinking that I was revealing the deepest of inspirational wisdom and insight!

The passaage 2 Tim. 3 does relate to the unsaved, I agree. However, within these very forums and of course spread throughout Christianity are many sincere born-again believers in Christ who sadly, for one reason or another, do not have the faith (nor perhaps even the desire) to believe that they can overcome sin. These I have noted have one thing in common. While certainly living a life which in outward appearance would pass muster as 'Christian' in many modern churches, they reject the authority of God as revealed in His commandments. They have to do this in order to justify their continuing transgression. Thus one reads and hears of many theories regarding the demise of the law, ranging from total antinomianism to partial acceptance of those commandments which prove to them less inconvenient. To these I believe can be attributed a form of godliness while denying the power.
In order to justify continuing habitual sin rather than embrace repentance and hunger and thirst for righteousness and receiving the blessing of God, many go to extraordinary lengths to twist scripture to claim sin can never be completely overcome in this life, and that the law of God has no claim upon them. Presumptous they are: though God loves them and if they are open to truth and desire to receive from God all that He offers, they will in time come to repentance and be the men and women God intends for them to be. They have much growing to do.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

So what you're saying here is that GOD make Adam and EVE imperfectly. Flawed. HE didn't do a good job. Yet HE blessed them. The first things GOD said to man was blessing. To a flawed man HE failed to make properly? Come on!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

So what you're saying here is that GOD make Adam and EVE imperfectly. Flawed. HE didn't do a good job.

I did not see anyone suggest that,just that their perfect design may have a purpose that we do not fully grasp.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[David777]

Hello Brakelite.

Rather suprised at your response;

"To these I believe can be attributed a form of godliness
while denying the power."

Oh Brakelite! That comment was most out of line in the
context of this thread.

I wonder whether you are familiar with the "dispensations"
approach to reading and understanding the Bible?

If not then you would be well advised to become familiar
with this approach. Otherwise your understanding of the
scripture will be sadly lacking, and this will be to your detriment.
It would also prevent the type of comments that you made above.

Dispensation means, man's response to specific revelation(s)
during the course of human history. For example the term,

"The dispensation of innocence in paradise" refers to
the dispensation which God placed Adam and Eve within.
We were not given this dispensation Brakelite.

God instructed Adam and Eve that they were not permitted
"to eat of the tree...". This dispensation does not apply to anyone
else Brakelite, it only applied to Adam and Eve. It is very
clear that this was a specific dispensation at a specific point
in human history. No argument on this point I hope.

Just on this one point alone you are now dispensational whether
you like it or not.

Now we will move quickly through the obvious dispensations
in human history to the current dispensation.

Ephesians 3:2-10

2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you;

(We need to stop at this point and examine "stewardship" or a better translation would be
"administration [oikonomian = dispensation]".)

3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.

(This dispensation Paul received was specific, to humans from this point onward.)

4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed
o His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

(This dispensation was not made known to other generations!)

6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body,
and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

( This is the dispensation in all its fullness, Jesus Christ.)

7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given
to me according to the working of His power.

8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles
the unfathomable riches of Christ,

9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages
has been hidden in God who created all things;

( Paul repeats that this "administration" = dispensation, was unknown previously.)

10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church
to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

( This line is the summation of all God's dispensations.)

A dispensational reading of the Bible is the only way. In fact
we are told this within the scriptures Brakelite, to adopt this
method of understanding God's revelations. If you avoid the
obvious dispensations you will arrive a a very confused
understanding of the scriptures.

 

[David777]

I did not see anyone suggest that,just that their perfect design may have a purpose that we do not fully grasp.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Hello thiscrosshurts.

I would like to know just where the idea that
Adam and Eve were "perfect" or that creation
was "perfect" originated.

Scripture never states this in Genesis, only that
the creation was good. If Adam and Eve were perfect
then they would have obeyed God perfectly.

Speculation seems to abound where the scripture is
the briefest in detail.

Do like the quote from Romans though.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Did you read the entire chapter there? Romans 11 I mean. If you did then what are you going on about? GOD was talking about the Jews not Adam. HE was talking about the Jews in their refusing HIM and how they can still be saved. Read the entire chapter.

If man was created imperfect it would mean GOD is also imperfect because of the fact that man was created in GODs very image. Means an exact duplicate.

 

[NetChaplain]

I appreciate the advocacy from proponents of this thread but my concern is more with the fact that God knew He would be using it in His plan, which not only evidences His omniscience but also His omnipotence in sovereign control over all things, as they are "predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph 1:11).

 

[David777]

Hello NetChaplain.

Beautiful quote from a remarkable chapter in Ephesians.

The love and compassion Jesus demonstrated by the sacrifice
of His own life, to save us is beyond understanding.

I will always see this event as the pure will of God.

God planned not that Adam would fail the test but
that salvation would be available to all in Christ.

I never see human sin as God's intention, never could
be from a God of love. God's purity is unquestionable
these kind of thoughts would never pass through His
mind.

God creates in love and rescues in absolute pure love!

 

[NetChaplain]

The love and compassion Jesus demonstrated by the sacrifice
of His own life, to save us is beyond understanding.

God planned not that Adam would fail the test but
that salvation would be available to all in Christ.

I never see human sin as God's intention

Hi Dave - In this life, I do not believe we are to know and understand sin the way God does. "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord" (Rom 11:33, 34).

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I would like to know just where the idea that
Adam and Eve were "perfect" or that creation
was "perfect" originated.

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock; his deeds are perfect. Everything he does is just and fair. He is a faithful God who does no wrong; how just and upright he is!

A designer who adds a flaw for a purpose still has a perfect design,perfect for the purpose he designed it for and not necessarily perfect to outside observers.The perfection is in the purpose not the product.

Job 22:3 Is it any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous? or is it gain to him, that thou makest thy ways perfect?

I never see human sin as God's intention, never could
be from a God of love. God's purity is unquestionable
these kind of thoughts would never pass through His
mind.

Isaiah 25:1 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

If I create a car that does not make me a car.

 

[David777]

Hello thiscrosshurts, a pleasure to respond.
Usually your posts are solid and enjoyable
to read, but I do take exception to the idea
that God creates evil!

I do see how you arrive at the idea that
God's creation is perfect since His deeds
are perfect. Therefore it would appear that
God will only ever create perfectly?

This is not necessarily true of course,
the creator may perfectly create an
imperfect creature such as Adam.

Deuteronomy 32:4 (KJV)
He is the Rock; his deeds are perfect.
Everything he does is just and fair. He is a faithful God who
does no wrong; how just and upright he is!

This may in fact be a misunderstanding of the
intent of the author in his work of creation.
God created and said it was "good", not perfect.

If Adam was created as a perfect image, then there
would be have been four persons as God not
three. This is only logical tch, Adam was a created
human being, not an image of God in a perfect
sense. I must emphasize this point, nor was the
earth perfect in the sense that we understand
perfection.

Everything he does is "just and fair".
I think that means everything, all, certainly
creating evil is not fair, not loving, not Grace.

He is a faithful God "who does no wrong";
Yes God does no wrong, no evil at all.
Thanks for the quote from Deuteronomy tch.

Your quote from Isaiah was a typo, waving the wand;

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)

Yes tch, the translators of the KJV seemed to have erred
in using the words "create evil" in the translation.

Here are two alternate translations of this verse;

Isaiah 45:7 (NASB)
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these.

Isaiah 45:7 (RSV)
I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe,
I am the Lord, who do all these things.

You will notice that none of the above translations
render Isaiah 45:7 the way the KJV does.
This translation of this one line is out of harmony
with the rest of the Bible.

God is holy, holy, holy, which of course rules
out the creation of evil. You should know better
tch, I am surprised.

You will need to address this problem that the KJV is
responsible for. What I desire is the other verses in the
Bible that would support the idea that God creates evil!
One line doeth not a doctrine maketh.

I fear that I will be waiting a very long time.

 

[NetChaplain]

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock; his deeds are perfect. Everything he does is just and fair. He is a faithful God who does no wrong; how just and upright he is!

A designer who adds a flaw for a purpose still has a perfect design,perfect for the purpose he designed it for and not necessarily perfect to outside observers.The perfection is in the purpose not the product.

Hi TCH - Even though we will not understand why God chose this way for man to "enter into life", we can rest in His control, not ours.

I believe the Scripture you listed here in Deuteronomy 32 and your comment with it, best exemplifies my thread. I appreciate it and hope you do not mind me sharing it with others on ten other sites that I also fellowship with, I believe it will prove helpful for some.

As for the reference in Isaiah 45:7 concerning the word "evil", it's my opinion that it does not intend sin, but the evil which results from sin. A good example is in Job 2:10; "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil (hardness)? Many times the KJV uses the word evil, not for sin, but its products.

I myself from the beginning of this thread have been trying to center more on God's foreknowledge of this issue than as to the why and what He did, because it maintains the consistency of His control of all things. I believe He uses what we do not understand to affirm His control and through it, causes and teaches us to yield all to His trust, which is the primary reason for my thread.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Firstly :Netchaplin,thanks and I would love you to share that.


To David,hey my brother from the other,side of the world.

Hello thiscrosshurts, a pleasure to respond.
Usually your posts are solid and enjoyable
to read, but I do take exception to the idea
that God creates evil!

Actually it was Isaiah that said it,I actually copied it from the Bible.

This is not necessarily true of course,
the creator may perfectly create an
imperfect creature such as Adam.

I thought that's what I said.
A good example is in the movie Schindler's list where they made cannon
shells flawed on purpose and the design of the company
became about saving the lives of as many Jews as possible
by appearing to be eager to meet Hitlers needs.
Again mind you this is pure speculation,
it answers many questions but it also opens up new ones.

If Adam was created as a perfect image, then there
would be have been four persons as God not
three. This is only logical tch, Adam was a created
human being, not an image of God in a perfect
sense. I must emphasize this point, nor was the
earth perfect in the sense that we understand
perfection.

I fully agree,however if it was done for a specific purpose that
could not be accomplished any other way then it would be perfect for that purpose.
I drive a perfect 1986 Honda Accord,well the car is not perfect but it is perfect for my purpose.

Yes tch, the translators of the KJV seemed to have erred
in using the words "create evil" in the translation.

Strong's Hebrew 7451--ra' =adjective-bad, evil
It's a tough one to peg down because in Hebrew context is so important
On one end of the spectrum it means evil and on the other end it can mean discomfort.
We may have to wait until we can ask either Isaiah or Jesus.

I fear that I will be waiting a very long time.

Do I get to go translation shopping like you did.
There are more but you will use the same method to attack them.
We can simply choose the translation with the lighter or darker bent.
How would you like your toast.

There is a sovereignty issue to be dealt with also.
You seem to be saying someone or something trumped Gods will,design and purpose.
I don't see him as a weakling on muscle beach who got his sand castle kicked in.
Perhaps you could enlighten me to this more powerful entity?

 

[David777]

There is a sovereignty issue to be dealt with also.
You seem to be saying someone or something trumped Gods will,design and purpose.
I don't see him as a weakling on muscle beach who got his sand castle kicked in.
Perhaps you could enlighten me to this more powerful entity?

Appreciate your response tch.

God's sovereignty is way beyond translation issues, never
questioned. Scripture indicates strongly that God's plan
was fully realized in Christ. God's entire will is that you
believe in His Son.

I am not an advocate of pure freewill tch as freewill is not
possible in a landscape dominated by the spirit of the air.
We by nature exhibit the deeds of the flesh and are
opposed to God, no debate on this point. Freewill is
strangely absent before the intervention of Christ and
the Holy Spirit. We are drawn towards Jesus!

With the intervention of the Holy Spirit, there does then
exist a level of decision making with eternal consequences.
I do not believe that this could be called freewill in any sense,
certainly not if the dictionary definition of freewill is employed.

Choosing Jesus under the influence of the conviction of
the Holy Spirit automatically disqualifies any freedom of
will. Our will is never free but always subject to internal and
external spiritual forces.

We may need to find a more suitable word, freewill is
a philosophical term and does not belong within the
landscape of the scripture.

I will burn the next heretic that attempts to propagate
the idea that man's will is ever free.