History of Lucifer/Satan, including now

[John Zain]

We have two completely different descriptions of the origins of Lucifer's musical instruments!
Yours says Lucifer's instruments were prepared for him;
mine says Lucifer's instruments were built right into his body.

Well, we're finally getting into the meat of what we should be aware of concerning Satan.
And I'm sure that Joe would be happy to loan his new dvd to you after he's watched it 500 times.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

I was under the impression that Christians believe Paul wrote his letters to the churches he started
... to guide them, to teach them further, to chastise them, to encourage them, even to praise them.

That others (like you) may possibly benefit from these writings is just more of God's grace.

And also, there is a good Looney Tunes dvd that I'd be happy to buy for you.

John,
Yes, Paul wrote his letters to the churches "to teach them" and part of that teaching was that Christ will save all men and not just those who Christ chooses to be in His church (and certainly not just those to whom Paul wrote his letters).

Col 1:16-20 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

The above scripture leaves no room for your illogical twisting of scripture to exclude those to whom the letters were not written. The same "all things created in heaven and earth" are the same all things that will be reconciled to Him "whether they be things in earth or things in heaven". The salvation of Christ (His work) does not leave anyone out. All will come to Christ when the Father draws them.

I must ask, do you agree that God created all of mankind? I assume you believe so. The same "all things" that God created are the same "all things" that will be reconciled to God.

Also, this scripture:

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Here again, Paul says that the "many" who were made sinners is the same "many" who will be made righteous. Isn't it true that through Adam's disobedience the penalty for his sin was passed down to all men? Scripture says it does. And those who were made sinners by one man's disobedience will all be likewise made righteous by the obedience of another man, Jesus Christ. Christ will ensure that He saves all who suffer under the curse of Adam.

Paul expresses it again in another one of his letters :

1Cor 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I have given you three witnesses of scripture (not to mention all the others that I have previously given you) that clearly state that Christ will save all sinners which constitutes all of mankind. If you still deny that Christ is the Savior of the world, then you simply do not believe God and there is nothing more that I can say.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe

 

[Brother Mike]

Monitoring this.

` But where are their scriptures? Where is the accountable age scripture. If all children under 12 get a free pass to heaven, then why not guarantee their salvation by making sure no child lives to be 12?

Num 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

God never changes!!

John Zain:

And also, there is a good Looney Tunes dvd that I'd be happy to buy for you.

I already gave a couple guys a month break from Talk Jesus with remarks like this. Lets use scripture.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[John Zain]

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Here again, Paul says that the "many" who were made sinners is the same "many" who will be made righteous.
Isn't it true that through Adam's disobedience the penalty for his sin was passed down to all men? Scripture says it does.
And those who were made sinners by one man's disobedience will all be likewise made righteous
by the obedience of another man, Jesus Christ.
Christ will ensure that He saves all who suffer under the curse of Adam.

Paul expresses it again in another one of his letters :
1Cor 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I apologize to you for the dvd offer.

Rom 5:19
"Many" is a very relative term; it doesn't even guarantee 50% (as does the word "most").
Millions are indeed "many", but not compared to billions.
If all suffer under the curse of Adam, why didn't Paul say "all" instead of "many"?
If Paul believed that the original sin affected everyone, he should have used the word "all".
"Many" is correct, that's for sure, but he would have been much more accurate using "all".

Also, if Jesus' words in Mark 16:16 are true:
-- Will "all" manage to get themselves water baptized?
-- Perhaps Paul should have included water baptism in his Romans 10:9-10.

So, was the Holy Spirit 100% successful in producing "all" of Paul's words 100% correctly?
If not, this is just another reason for Him being in us ... to lead us into "all" truth.

1 Cor 15:21-22
All I can say here is that "all" who are "in Christ" shall be made alive.
I'm not sure this verse is saying that "all" are (or will be) in Christ.
So, this verse is ambiguous ... perhaps only made clear by the Holy Spirit.

Also, what do you have to say about the famous perishing in Hell verses?
E.G. John 3:16-18, 3:36, 5:24, etc.
Please note: John was the closest disciple (spiritually) to Jesus.

Perhaps you agree with the Muslims who say:
"The Bible cannot be correct ... it must have been altered."
They say this because it disagrees with their most Holy Qur'an.
But, they're not complaining about the Hell verses ... they have other issues.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Num 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

God never changes!!

John Zain:


I already gave a couple guys a month break from Talk Jesus with remarks like this. Lets use scripture.

Jesus Is Lord.

Mike,
I have heard the "age of accountability" defense many times to help make the doctrine of hell not seem so unjust.

First off, hell has never been the penalty of sin. Death is the penalty of sin - surely you know this. The threat of hell was adopted by the harlot churches from other pagan religions to create fear in the masses so that the powers within the church could exercise more control over its members. Death has always been the penalty of sin and that penalty was passed down from Adam to all his offspring (Rom 5:12). It makes no difference of one's age, death still awaits all mankind, adults and children alike.

Since the time of Adam until now, all men are still laying dead in the grave. But thanks to Christ that debt of death has been paid for mankind. It wasn't just for those who "accept" Christ; it is for all men of all time. John the Baptist made it very clear when He proclaimed:

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

And the apostle John gave him a second witness:

1Joh 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Because of Christ's death on the cross, Christ will give all men life again when the resurrection of the dead occurs. Death will not hold anyone in the grave. The penalty of Adam's sin has been paid by Christ and imputed to all men. I know that you believe that Christ will resurrect all mankind because the doctrine of hell requires it. If His sacrifice on the cross did not apply to all men, then Christ would have no such power to resurrect all of mankind.

But Christ came to do more than just pay the sin debt of the world and give us life again. He also came to make us righteous and stop us from ever sinning again.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, AND that they might have it more abundantly.

Christ accomplished giving all men life from His sacrifice at the cross. But God wants man to be made in His image and to never sin again. Even though Christ paid the sin debt, mankind must also stop sinning. Christ will stop mankind from sinning by drawing all men to Himself and will then cause them to be "born again". This great task is accomplished solely by the work of Christ. We are at His mercy to complete our salvation. We have nothing to contribute towards our own salvation. This constitutes giving mankind more abundant life as John 10:10 states.

In "due time" Christ will cause all men to come to Him and go through the process that leads us to be "born again". By the end of the final age, all mankind will be born again into the Kingdom of Heaven! And that is the GOOD NEWS that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The doctrine of hell makes Christ the worst nightmare the mind of man can envision. How is that good news???

Since Christ has paid the sin debt of the world, an "age of accountability" doctrine is a mute point and that is why there is no mention of it in the New Testament. All men will rise again thanks to Christ. And after our resurrection, Christ will start dealing with the sin problem that all men have. He is presently harvesting His church in this age so as to bring in the "first fruits" of the Kingdom. Later, He will use His church to bring in the final harvest of mankind. That is the Paul said:

1Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in DUE TIME.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe











It is not taught in the New Testament because it is a mute point after the sacrifice of Christ. and that is why an "age of accountability" is not taught in the New Testament. After the death of Christ

 

[Brother Mike]

So your point?

In "due time" Christ will cause all men to come to Him and go through the process that leads us to be "born again". By the end of the final age, all mankind will be born again into the Kingdom of Heaven! And that is the GOOD NEWS that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The doctrine of hell makes Christ the worst nightmare the mind of man can envision. How is that good news???

So, it's your view that everyone gets saved, would that be correct?

No Hell, no punishment, God reconciles everyone in the World back to himself?

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

I apologize to you for the dvd offer.

Rom 5:19
"Many" is a very relative term; it doesn't even guarantee 50% (as does the word "most").
Millions are indeed "many", but not compared to billions.
If all suffer under the curse of Adam, why didn't Paul say "all" instead of "many"?
If Paul believed that the original sin affected everyone, he should have used the word "all".
"Many" is correct, that's for sure, but he would have been much more accurate using "all".

Also, if Jesus' words in Mark 16:16 are true:
-- Will "all" manage to get themselves water baptized?
-- Perhaps Paul should have included water baptism in his Romans 10:9-10.

So, was the Holy Spirit 100% successful in producing "all" of Paul's words 100% correctly?
If not, this is just another reason for Him being in us ... to lead us into "all" truth.

1 Cor 15:21-22
All I can say here is that "all" who are "in Christ" shall be made alive.
I'm not sure this verse is saying that "all" are (or will be) in Christ.
So, this verse is ambiguous ... perhaps only made clear by the Holy Spirit.

Also, what do you have to say about the famous perishing in Hell verses?
E.G. John 3:16-18, 3:36, 5:24, etc.
Please note: John was the closest disciple (spiritually) to Jesus.

Perhaps you agree with the Muslims who say:
"The Bible cannot be correct ... it must have been altered."
They say this because it disagrees with their most Holy Qur'an.
But, they're not complaining about the Hell verses ... they have other issues.

John,
I would never be offended by anything you could possibly say to me but I gladly accept your apology.

You said:
Rom 5:19
"Many" is a very relative term; it doesn't even guarantee 50% (as does the word "most").
Millions are indeed "many", but not compared to billions.
If all suffer under the curse of Adam, why didn't Paul say "all" instead of "many"?
If Paul believed that the original sin affected everyone, he should have used the word "all".
"Many" is correct, that's for sure, but he would have been much more accurate using "all".

It is clear in Rom 5:19 that the "many" who were constituted sinners is the same "many" that will be made righteous. When scripture uses the word "all" you still reject that it really means "all". So if Paul had used the word "all" here, you would still deny that Christ will save all of mankind.

You said:
Also, if Jesus' words in Mark 16:16 are true:
-- Will "all" manage to get themselves water baptized?
-- Perhaps Paul should have included water baptism in his Romans 10:9-10.

Here is Mark 16:16:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Christ is not speaking of "water baptism". Water baptism is merely a physical symbol used to show a spiritual reality that must take place (being "born again"). Being dunked in water never saved anyone. Being spiritually baptized in Christ will save everyone.

We must all "die to self" (death of our Old man) and the New Man in Christ must rise in his place. That is the process that must occur spiritually in our life and what water baptism represents. Water baptism is merely a symbol - it accomplishes nothing. Being "born again" is a long process that involves many things, including the judgment of our Old man. It does not happen with a simple dunking in water. If you believe it does, then you should reread all of Paul's letters.

You said:
So, was the Holy Spirit 100% successful in producing "all" of Paul's words 100% correctly?
If not, this is just another reason for Him being in us ... to lead us into "all" truth.

Scripture is 100% correct, however the "bible translations" down through the age are not. The Holy Spirit in us makes it possible for us to understand scripture and believe scripture. The Holy Spirit was not given so that we can work through the errors that the writers of the scriptures may have have made.

You said:
1 Cor 15:21-22
All I can say here is that "all" who are "in Christ" shall be made alive.
I'm not sure this verse is saying that "all" are (or will be) in Christ.
So, this verse is ambiguous ... perhaps only made clear by the Holy Spirit.

Here is the verse:

1Cor 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This verse is not ambiguous. Everyone who died in Adam (that is all of mankind) will all be made alive again by Christ. It is saying the same thing as Rom 5:19. It is only ambiguous to you because it doesn't fit with your doctrines. In any other context outside of scripture, you would have no problem understanding such a simple statement. But since you have to make scripture conform to your own beliefs, the statement suddenly becomes "ambiguous".

You said:
Also, what do you have to say about the famous perishing in Hell verses?
E.G. John 3:16-18, 3:36, 5:24, etc.
Please note: John was the closest disciple (spiritually) to Jesus.

Hell is not mentioned in any of the verses you listed above. When scripture does say "hell" it is only referring to the unseen place which represents the grave or the state of being dead.

The verses you listed talk about being condemned or not having life more abundantly as John 10:10 says. Being condemned is what happens to every man's carnal nature (Old man). The Old Man must die - Paul said that he died daily. In water baptism, the dunking part represents the death of our carnal nature. Our carnal nature is condemned. It is necessary to die before our new birth in Christ can occur. The church goes through the salvation process in this life, all others will go through it in the final age on the new earth. Being "condemned" or "destroyed" is necessary to find new life in Christ.

Also, John was not the closest to Christ spiritually. There are no scriptures to support this claim. John was just as carnal as anyone else. He did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit until it was given at Pentecost. Scripture does say that John the Baptist was the greatest of all men to have lived but He still is not as great as anyone who will be born again into the Kingdom of Heaven.

You said:
Perhaps you agree with the Muslims who say:
"The Bible cannot be correct ... it must have been altered."
They say this because it disagrees with their most Holy Qur'an.
But, they're not complaining about the Hell verses ... they have other issues.

The scriptures are 100% accurate, however, the bible that you use does contain many errors (regardless of version). Did you know that there have been over 1000 verse corrections made to the KJV since 1611? Even to this day the KJV bible still contains many errors. Word for word translating of one language into another language is simply not possible. When I say the "scriptures" say anything, I am referring to the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures - not their English translations. With this said, the KJV is still the best translation available to us but it should be read and studied knowing that errors do exist in it. When in doubt, the original Greek or Hebrew writings supersede any translation.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

So, it's your view that everyone gets saved, would that be correct?

No Hell, no punishment, God reconciles everyone in the World back to himself?

Jesus Is Lord.

Mike,
Yes, the scriptures proclaim that Jesus is the Savior of the world - not just a small part of the world as the harlot churches state. "Hell", as the churches define it, does not exist - it is a lie.

All men will come to Christ in the same way. They must be "born again". Being born again is a long and painful process which includes judgment and destruction. No one can escape this process of being born again. It is the work of Christ, not ours. He will cause it to happen at the appointed time for each person. Mankind is merely clay in the hand of the potter. Jesus will shape us all into the image of God in "due time". The churches make a serious error in thinking that Christ cannot save people into the Kingdom of Heaven after their physical death. It is true that after a man's physical death he cannot be in the "church". The church is only for the first fruits of the harvest. They are blessed above all men and will have life in the Kingdom age to rule and reign with Christ. Those that are not chosen to be in the church will still be born again and enter the Kingdom of Heaven before the final age ends. The church will be used by Christ to gather in the remaining harvest of mankind. None will be lost. If you read scripture in light of what I just stated, it will make a lot more sense. Those "difficult" verses will disappear and (if the Lord is willing) you will come to know the true Christ for the first time.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe

 

[Brother Mike]

one more try.

In "due time" Christ will cause all men to come to Him and go through the process that leads us to be "born again". By the end of the final age, all mankind will be born again into the Kingdom of Heaven! And that is the GOOD NEWS that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The doctrine of hell makes Christ the worst nightmare the mind of man can envision. How is that good news???

Since my other questions where ignored, perhaps you can shed some light on this then.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Here at the End of the final age where the new city is set up, it appears that we have some nations that are not saved, and people who are not yet in the book of life, being barred from entering the city. According to your statement, how would this be possible, and who are these extra unsaved just walking around?

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Peace Seeker]

The churches make a serious error in thinking that Christ cannot save people into the Kingdom of Heaven after their physical death.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

It doesn't say...."but after this you get a second chance to become born again".

And what is this judgment? Is it not where God separates the sheep from the goats? And you don't believe in a literal hell, so after the judgment where do these unbelievers go?

What is the punishment that is referred to here in Matthew 25:31-46?

 

[Brother Mike]

Hard verses.

Joe in Arkansas

If you read scripture in light of what I just stated, it will make a lot more sense. Those "difficult" verses will disappear and (if the Lord is willing) you will come to know the true Christ for the first time.

So, if those so called difficult verses get out of my way, then I will come to know the true Christ? Would that be opposed to the false one I had been following?

PeaceKeeper:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

It doesn't say...."but after this you get a second chance to become born again".

And what is this judgment? Is it not where God separates the sheep from the goats? And you don't believe in a literal hell, so after the judgment where do these unbelievers go?

What is the punishment that is referred to here in Matthew 25:31-46?

It appears to be a new belief of Universalism/Catholicism where there is some refining place or something, everyone goes to. Hard to tell at this point.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[David777]

Hello Joe.

It is clear in Rom 5:19 that the "many" who were constituted sinners is the same "many"
that will be made righteous. When scripture uses the word "all" you still reject that it really
means "all". So if Paul had used the word "all" here, you would still deny that Christ will save
all of mankind.

Ephesians 3

2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you,

3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.

4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed
by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.

6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

When Paul uses the "all" he may be referring to the combination of Jew and Gentile.

Now if we look at Romans 5:18-19
<sup class="versenum">
</sup>
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in
condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men,
resulting in justification of life.

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s
obedience many will be made righteous.

The "all" could very well be understood as Jew and Gentile, perhaps not the "all" in
the whole of mankind. We have to tread carefully Joe, it is not what we prefer the scriptures say.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Since my other questions where ignored, perhaps you can shed some light on this then.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Here at the End of the final age where the new city is set up, it appears that we have some nations that are not saved, and people who are not yet in the book of life, being barred from entering the city. According to your statement, how would this be possible, and who are these extra unsaved just walking around?

Jesus Is Lord.

Mike,
The verses you quoted are not at the end of the final age but during the final age. The "New Jerusalem" is a symbol for the church. The church at this time is now "born again" and is complete. Only those who have been chosen for the church are in the Lamb's book of life. All others must remain outside of its gates. Don't confuse the church or New Jerusalem with the Kingdom of Heaven. The church is in the Kingdom of Heaven but it is not the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus Christ is the Kingdom of Heaven. Now read on to Rev 22:17:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The church has been completed as you showed in ch. 21. But yet the church (the bride of Christ) and the Spirit make a free offer to come and drink of the "water of life" which is Christ. This offer is made just 5 verses from the end of last chapter of Revelation. But that is not the end. Paul in his letter to the Corinthians shows us what happens after Revelation leaves off.

1Cor 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Paul says that after all of mankind is saved, then the Kingdom of Heaven (not the church) is delivered up to the Father so that God may be "all in all". These verses show the end of God's plan for creation. I don't know of any other verses that go any further into the future than these. Revelation ends with the offer of salvation to those outside the church. But here in Corinthians, Paul shows us the final outcome of mankind. All who sinned in Adam will be saved in Christ and then the Kingdom will be offered up to the Father so that He will be "all in all". The End. Christ completed the mission to the save the world just as the Father gave to Him to do. It takes 3 ages of time (due time) but He accomplishes all that the Father gave Him to accomplish.

Here is another scripture that shows the final outcome:

Phil 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, not just of the church as is commonly taught.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

It doesn't say...."but after this you get a second chance to become born again".

And what is this judgment? Is it not where God separates the sheep from the goats? And you don't believe in a literal hell, so after the judgment where do these unbelievers go?

What is the punishment that is referred to here in Matthew 25:31-46?

Do you not know that all men will be judged starting with the church in this age? Judgment is a necessary component of salvation. The judgment of God produces righteousness. Judgment is not the end of God's mercy. His mercy has no end.

Separating the sheep from the goats has nothing to do with the church. The church has already been chosen and completed before Christ resurrects the remainder of mankind and then He separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep are the Old Testament saints who inherit the Kingdom of God. They do not get to enter the church.

The "goats" go to the New Earth for judgment (Lake of Fire). Notice in ch. 21 that the church (New Jerusalem) is in their mist and the church in ch. 22 makes them an offer to drink of the waters of life. Please read my last post to Mike.

Joe

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Joe in Arkansas


So, if those so called difficult verses get out of my way, then I will come to know the true Christ? Would that be opposed to the false one I had been following?

PeaceKeeper:


It appears to be a new belief of Universalism/Catholicism where there is some refining place or something, everyone goes to. Hard to tell at this point.

Jesus Is Lord.

Mike,
If you believe that Christ will fail in His mission to save the world but will torture most of mankind in the fires of hell for all eternity, then yes, you are following a false Christ.

The gospel of Christ that I teach is the same one that Christ and the apostles teach. The harlot church, whose head is Satan, has turned Christ into a failure and into a living nightmare for most of mankind. They teach that God is void of love and mercy for most of His children and is powerless to save them. It is no wonder that Christ will say "I never knew you" to them and then spew them out of His mouth. They will go into the Lake of Fire to be saved into the Kingdom of Heaven at the end of the final age.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

It is clear in Rom 5:19 that the "many" who were constituted sinners is the same "many"
that will be made righteous. When scripture uses the word "all" you still reject that it really
means "all". So if Paul had used the word "all" here, you would still deny that Christ will save
all of mankind.

Ephesians 3

2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you,

3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.

4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed
by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.

6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

When Paul uses the "all" he may be referring to the combination of Jew and Gentile.

Now if we look at Romans 5:18-19
<sup class="versenum">
</sup>
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in
condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men,
resulting in justification of life.

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s
obedience many will be made righteous.

The "all" could very well be understood as Jew and Gentile, perhaps not the "all" in
the whole of mankind. We have to tread carefully Joe, it is not what we prefer the scriptures say.

David,
All means all. If it meant less than all, Paul would have made it clear. There are many, many verses that proclaim that Christ is the Savior of the world and none that say He will fail and only save a small fraction.

Joe

 

[Brother Mike]

Here is the deal.

Joe in Arkansas

Mike,
If you believe that Christ will fail in His mission to save the world but will torture most of mankind in the fires of hell for all eternity, then yes, you are following a false Christ.

The gospel of Christ that I teach is the same one that Christ and the apostles teach. The harlot church, whose head is Satan, has turned Christ into a failure and into a living nightmare for most of mankind. They teach that God is void of love and mercy for most of His children and is powerless to save them. It is no wonder that Christ will say "I never knew you" to them and then spew them out of His mouth. They will go into the Lake of Fire to be saved into the Kingdom of Heaven at the end of the final age.

Here is the deal Joe.

Strange doctrines and belief systems, OK, you present what you believe to be truth in scriptures. Hinting that other members here who have equal standing with you, may believe in a false Christ, or part of a Harlot Church is not OK.

You know very well many here believe in Hell, and to make a comment that Jesus said "I never knew you." is not going to fly here. What you believe is not so superior as to make you a judge.

I suggest you change your wording, and approach very quickly. This is a verbal warning only.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Joe in Arkansas


Here is the deal Joe.

Strange doctrines and belief systems, OK, you present what you believe to be truth in scriptures. Hinting that other members here who have equal standing with you, may believe in a false Christ, or part of a Harlot Church is not OK.

You know very well many here believe in Hell, and to make a comment that Jesus said "I never knew you." is not going to fly here. What you believe is not so superior as to make you a judge.

I suggest you change your wording, and approach very quickly. This is a verbal warning only.

Mike,
You asked me the question if I thought you were following a false Christ. If you did not really want to know what I think, then you should not have asked me. My beliefs in Christ come from scripture and are supported by scripture. I am not surprised you would threaten me with harm since you are offended with the Christ I know and follow. He is obviously not the same Christ who you know. One of us is following a false Christ. You know my opinion in the matter. I stand by the Word of God.

1Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

 

[David777]

Dear Joe.

A person is saved by believing in Jesus Christ, the Gospel.

A person is not saved on the basis of their scriptural interpretation or theology.

I tread very lightly in most areas of doctrine, it is not what I think that matters.
It is what the scriptures testify to, the revelation of Jesus Christ.
This is the paramount subject of the New Testament not Joe's pet interpretation.

To proclaim Universalism is of secondary importance to Jesus Christ.

You believe that because a person does not agree with your interpretation
then they must believe in a false Christ. From the most basic approach to scripture possible,
you are incorrect in your conclusion. Tread softly, gently, in Love above all Joe.

 

[Brother Mike]

OK.

Mike,
You asked me the question if I thought you were following a false Christ. If you did not really want to know what I think, then you should not have asked me. My beliefs in Christ come from scripture and are supported by scripture. I am not surprised you would threaten me with harm since you are offended with the Christ I know and follow. He is obviously not the same Christ who you know. One of us is following a false Christ. You know my opinion in the matter. I stand by the Word of God.

Joe, I need you to focus for a moment. I told you, I don't care what you believe. I said change your tactics with putting other members down because they do not believe what you do. That is what I warned you about. Post your scriptures, explain them without the accusations or hints about those that don't believe like you being part of the Harlot Church.

It's like me saying those that don't speak tongues today follow a false doctrine and are confused, not knowing the Holy spirit.

I can teach about tongues, and the Holy Spirit without targeting people, putting them down.

Your response was that I am offended at the Christ you follow.

How you managed to make that up Joe is beyond me, I gave you simple instructions that were not that hard.

So, one more time. Present your scriptures and teaching in a way that does not direct insults at those that believe different than you.

If I find your unable to follow these instructions, Then I will look into other measures you may understand more clearly.

Mike.