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History of Lucifer/Satan, including now

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Ezekiel 28:
12 “… Thus says the Lord GOD:
“You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius,
topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God;
you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned;
therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God;
and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones.
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you.
18 You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading;
therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; you have become a horror,
and shall be no more forever.”

Isaiah 14:
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ”I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.”
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying:
“Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms,
17 who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?”

Revelation 12:
7 “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon;
and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world;
he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God,
and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren,
who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony,
and they did not love their lives to the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea!
For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Revelation 20:
2 “… the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan …”

Luke 10:
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

God allows Satan to be the god/ruler/deceiver of this world
“the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).
“the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19).
“the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4).
“the ruler of this world” (John 12:31).
“him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14).
“the devil has sinned from the beginning” (1 John 3:8).
“he was a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44).
“there is no truth in him ... he is liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).
“the accuser of our brethren (believers)” (Revelation 12:10).
“the ruler of the demons” (Matthew 12:24).
“the spiritual forces of wickedness” (Ephesians 6:12).
“the world forces of this (spiritual) darkness” (Ephesians 6:12).
“Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if
his (false) ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).
“the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:2).
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion,
seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).
 
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Member

Ezekiel 28:
12 “… Thus says the Lord GOD:
“You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius,
topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God;
you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned;
therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God;
and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones.
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you.
18 You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading;
therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; you have become a horror,
and shall be no more forever.”

Isaiah 14:
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ”I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.”
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying:
“Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms,
17 who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?”

Revelation 12:
7 “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon;
and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan,
who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God,
and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren,
who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony,
and they did not love their lives to the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea!
For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Revelation 20:
2 “… the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan …”

Luke 10:
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

God allows Satan to be the god/ruler/deceiver of this world
“the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).
“the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19).
“the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4).
“the ruler of this world” (John 12:31).
“him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14).
“the devil has sinned from the beginning” (1 John 3:8).
“he was a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44).
“there is no truth in him ... he is liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).
“the accuser of our brethren (believers)” (Revelation 12:10).
“the ruler of the demons” (Matthew 12:24).
“the spiritual forces of wickedness” (Ephesians 6:12).
“the world forces of this (spiritual) darkness” (Ephesians 6:12).
“Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if
his (false) ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).
“the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:2).
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion,
seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).
Christians want someone to blame their sins on,or to be the cause of world problems.
They can't view the people as the cause of world problems,they view it's problems as been by a fallen angel i.e sin,war etc etc

The whole idea of satan,can be explained - but Christians do not like that...

It appeals to Christian nature for the source of evil to come from outside,not from inside...

Christians prefer the sin nature to come from another source,not from themselves....

A mixture of TV/Media and brainwashing builds up the idea of a supernatural fallen angel...

It breeds a narrow mind of world problems as well as ignorance as to what satan is and represents and a fear...

Matthew 15:17-20:<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23651">17</sup>Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23652">18</sup>But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23653">19</sup>For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23654">20</sup>These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


Mark 7:18-23:<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-24482">18</sup>And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-24483">19</sup>Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-24484">20</sup>And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-24485">21</sup>For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-24486">22</sup>Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-24487">23</sup>All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


James 1:14-15:<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30281">14</sup>But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30282">15</sup>Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Jeremiah 17:9:The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


Isaiah 45:7:I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Isaiah 44:6:Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Leviticus 16:21-22:<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-3223">21</sup>And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-3224">22</sup>And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
 
Member
Christains this and Christains that.

Christians want someone to blame their sins on,or to be the cause of world problems.
They can't view the people as the cause of world problems,they view it's problems as been by a fallen angel i.e sin,war etc etc

The whole idea of satan,can be explained - but Christians do not like that...

It appeals to Christian nature for the source of evil to come from outside,not from inside...

Christians prefer the sin nature to come from another source,not from themselves....
In most of your post you seem to assume a lot of things about Christians. Would there be a reason for that, does this describe the way you are?

Jesus Is Lord.
 
Loyal
Christians want someone to blame their sins on,or to be the cause of world problems.
They can't view the people as the cause of world problems,they view it's problems as been by a fallen angel i.e sin,war etc etc

The whole idea of satan,can be explained - but Christians do not like that...

It appeals to Christian nature for the source of evil to come from outside,not from inside...

Christians prefer the sin nature to come from another source,not from themselves....
I take it from the above statements, that you aren't a Christian?
Are you here to sincerely learn about Christianity or just to try to prove how wrong it is and convert the rest of us to.... islam? atheism? buddhism?
 
Member
Christians want someone to blame their sins on,or to be the cause of world problems.
They can't view the people as the cause of world problems,they view it's problems as been by a fallen angel i.e sin,war etc etc

The whole idea of satan,can be explained - but Christians do not like that...

It appeals to Christian nature for the source of evil to come from outside,not from inside...

Christians prefer the sin nature to come from another source,not from themselves....

A mixture of TV/Media and brainwashing builds up the idea of a supernatural fallen angel...

It breeds a narrow mind of world problems as well as ignorance as to what satan is and represents and a fear...

Matthew 15:17-20:<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23651">17</sup>Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23652">18</sup>But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23653">19</sup>For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23654">20</sup>These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


Mark 7:18-23:<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-24482">18</sup>And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-24483">19</sup>Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-24484">20</sup>And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-24485">21</sup>For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-24486">22</sup>Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-24487">23</sup>All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


James 1:14-15:<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30281">14</sup>But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30282">15</sup>Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Jeremiah 17:9:The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


Isaiah 45:7:I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Isaiah 44:6:Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Leviticus 16:21-22:<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-3223">21</sup>And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-3224">22</sup>And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Dagelos,
For the most part the verses you quoted are not speaking of Satan. Also, the word "Lucifer" is not a correct translation. It should be translated "howl". Also, to say that God "allows" Satan to deceive is not really correct. God created Satan for the purpose of deceiving mankind. Satan is not a "fallen angel" as is commonly taught. He was created just as He is and God said that it is "good". Satan is good for the purpose he was created for and that is to deceive and bring evil.
Joe
 
Member
I take it from the above statements, that you aren't a Christian?
Are you here to sincerely learn about Christianity or just to try to prove how wrong it is and convert the rest of us to.... islam? atheism? buddhism?
I am a Christian.
But I feel the idea of satan among Christianity is false.
 
Member
Dagelos,
For the most part the verses you quoted are not speaking of Satan. Also, the word "Lucifer" is not a correct translation. It should be translated "howl". Also, to say that God "allows" Satan to deceive is not really correct. God created Satan for the purpose of deceiving mankind. Satan is not a "fallen angel" as is commonly taught. He was created just as He is and God said that it is "good". Satan is good for the purpose he was created for and that is to deceive and bring evil.
Joe
Lucifer in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,Hebrew is defined as...


1966 heylel hay-lale' from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:--lucifer.

Jesus is the morning star.

Revelations 22:16:I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


You have to understand how the King of Babylon is been spoken to,this is sarcasm,taunt.

Isaiah 14:4:You shall take up this [taunting] parable against the king of Babylon and say, How the oppressor has stilled [the restless insolence]! The golden and exacting city has ceased!

- Amplified Bible


satan is not the one who brings evil.Do you really think God needs someone else to take care of the evil?

Isaiah 45:7:I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
 
Member
In most of your post you seem to assume a lot of things about Christians. Would there be a reason for that, does this describe the way you are?

Jesus Is Lord.
Because most Christians seem to believe in the idea of satan.


A proper understanding of satan will help in the learning - the idea that there is God and satan is idolatry.

Exodus 20:3:Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Isaiah 44:6:Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 45:6:That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
 
Member
Satan is not a "fallen angel" as is commonly taught.
He was created just as He is and God said that it is "good".
Satan is good for the purpose he was created for and that is to deceive and bring evil.
Joe & Dagelos,

Why don't you read and believe the Scriptures in the OP?

Scripture clearly reveals that Satan and 1/3 of God's angels rebelled against God (of their own free will).

Question: Do you believe anything at all in the Scriptures, or just not the parts about Satan?
 
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Member
Joe & Dagelos,

Why don't you read and believe the Scriptures in the OP?

Scripture clearly reveals that Satan and 1/3 of God's angels rebelled against God (of their own free will).

Question: Do you believe anything at all in the Scriptures, or just not the parts about Satan?
Dear John,
Scripture only reveals that Satan "drew a third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth" (Rev 12). Satan was evil from the beginning and was not ever a "good" angel. He was a murderer from the beginning and there was never any truth in him (Joh 8:44). He did not choose to be this way anymore than we chose to be the way we are. God chose us both to be the way we are - He is the creator and He did not err in creating us the way we are. Also "free will" is not scriptural. God directs our paths and causes us to "will" and "do of His good pleasure". And yes, God does create evil but He uses it to accomplish good.

To answer your question, I believe all the scriptures but I totally reject the teachings of the harlot churches. Man was created evil and carnal. Adam and Eve were never perfect though they were for a short time without sin. If they were created "perfect", then they would never have sinned . God used Satan to bring out the sin nature that was already within Eve. God is not only responsible for Eve sinning but is the cause behind it. God planned for us to be sinners. Eve DID choose to sin but the choice she made was caused by God. In the carnal condition in which Eve was created, she could not have chosen to do anything different. And like Eve, we too are born carnal and cannot avoid sinning. If by our supposed "free will" we could choose not to sin, then we would not need a Savior. God gave the Law of Moses to prove to mankind that we are spiritually lacking and have a sin nature from birth. Because we are carnal and carnally minded, we are no different than a beast. But God will not leave us in this sinful condition forever. Christ came to pay our sin debt (death) and to cause all men to be "born again" into the Kingdom of Heaven (John 10:10). In the end, God will accomplish all that He stated He would do from the beginning and that was to create mankind in His image. Unfortunately for us, it is a long and painful process to be born into the family of God. But that is the way God chose to do it and we have no choice in the matter.

Rom 8:18-22 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature (mankind) mankind waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature (mankind) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature (mankind) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now (pain from the birth process). And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits (first but not only) of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Once God's creation has run its course, God will have produced many new sons and daughters and not just the first fruits of the harvest only but all of mankind. He is the creator and He is creating us in His image. When He is finished, we (mankind) will know both good and evil and will be fully like God in character and Spirit - no different than Christ Himself. Christ came to change mankind from the evil carnal people we all are, into the very image of His Father. He will not fail anyone. He is the Savior and it is up to Him to save us. God has spoken it:

1Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

and His Word will not return to Him void:

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Making sons and daughters of God is a long and painful process. God uses evil in that process so that we experientially know what evil is and how it differs from good. But He will not leave us in our evil condition, He has stated so in scripture. We must have patience and wait on the Lord for His great and glorious work to be accomplished.

So yes, I do believe in all the scripture, it is mainstream Christianity that does not.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe
 
Member

Oh God, another "Dear John" letter ... I've grown to hate those things! Oh well.

So, 2000 years of church doctrine has been wrong, but Joe's doctrine is right? Okay.

The bottom line is:
God created man to have free will ... so He wouldn't have robots worshipping Him.
(Man's soul consists of body, will, and emotions.)

For God, it had to be "free will or bust" ... and let the chips fall where they may.

Yes, this plan of His necessitates quite a risk ... and Eve chose to sin, and ditto for Adam.

But, Abram proved that sinful man WAS ABLE to go after God and worship Him.
Scripture goes on and on forever about Abram's faith making him righteous in God's eyes.

Now someone'll come along and say that God gave him this extraordinary faith of his.
If this was true ... sorry, the whole Bible's a sham, and Joe can just forget all of his pet theories.

P.S. Don't forget that God often talks about his small remnant of believers, i.e. there's only a few who make it.
 
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Member

Oh God, another "Dear John" letter ... I've grown to hate those things! Oh well.

So, 2000 years of church doctrine has been wrong, but Joe's doctrine is right? Okay.


The bottom line is:

God created man to have free will ... so He wouldn't have robots worshipping Him.
(Man's soul consists of body, will, and emotions.)

For God, it had to be "free will or bust" ... and let the chips fall where they may.


Yes, this plan of His necessitates quite a risk ... and Eve chose to sin, and ditto for Adam.


But, Abram proved that sinful man WAS ABLE to go after God and worship Him.

Scripture goes on and on forever about Abram's faith making him righteous in God's eyes.

Now someone'll come along and say that God gave him this extraordinary faith of his.

If this was true ... sorry, the whole Bible's a sham, and Joe can just forget all of his pet theories.

P.S. Don't forget that God often talks about his small remnant of believers, i.e. there's only a few who make it.


John,

You said:
So, 2000 years of church doctrine has been wrong, but Joe's doctrine is right? Okay.

Yes, nearly 2000 years of church history has been wrong. The churches that the apostles started quickly became harlot after their passing. Paul was told that it would happen and he grieved over it in his last few years.

Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.


Christ gave a description (in symbolic language) in Revelation 17 & 18. He commanded that those who have ears to hear (the few, the chosen) to come out of her or they will receive of her plagues and be held accountable for her sins. This corruption of the church did not happen because of "free will" but by the will of God. Like in the Jewish religion, God calls many into the church but only chooses a few to actually find the narrow gate. The church is only the first fruits of the harvest of mankind. The great and final harvest of the remainder of mankind will occur in the final age. Christ will use His elect (the church) to bring in this great harvest mankind.

I am always amazed that those who believe in an eternal hell as the punishment for rejecting Christ choose to ignore massive amounts of scripture that proves it to be a horrible hoax. First off, the penalty of sin is death, not being burned in hell for eternity. Secondly, God says in many scriptures that He will save all of mankind but somehow the harlot churches takes that to mean about 1% instead of "all" as the scriptures clearly state. God the Father sent Christ to be the Savior of the world, not a small part of the world. If Christ does not save the entire world, then He will fail in the mission the Father sent Him on.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Christ is not a failure. God is love and love never fails. Scripture says that the Father will draw all men to Christ and that Christ will "in no wise cast them out" (John 6). Not all men are drawn to Christ in this age, in fact, probably less than 1% are drawn to the true Christ. Those that are drawn to Him now become the leaders (priests and kings) that Christ will use for the great and glorious purpose of bringing in the full harvest of mankind. The true church is only the FIRST fruits - not the full harvest. When all is finished, every knee will bow and proclaim Jesus is Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit (Phil 2:10-11 & 1Cor 12:3). This act by all of mankind will give glory to the Father. When the Father truly draws us to Christ, it will be because the Father has put faith and a love for Christ in ours hearts and has healed our spiritual vision so that we can truly know Him. No man can come to Christ until this happens within them. We choose Christ willingly but God is the cause of our choosing Him, not us.

You said:
For God, it had to be "free will or bust" ... and let the chips fall where they may.

"Free will" is not in scripture. Your doctrine is based on the carnal mind of man. What the scripture does say is:

Phil 2:13 for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


God is in full control of His creation. God allows us to willingly choose but He is the cause of what we choose - not by force, but by putting all the factors in place, both internal and external, that cause us to make the choice that pleases Him. The "free will" doctrine is the foundation of Christian self righteousness. There is no room for it in the Kingdom of God.

You said:
Now someone'll come along and say that God gave him this extraordinary faith of his.
If this was true ... sorry, the whole Bible's a sham, and Joe can just forget all of his pet theories.


Yes, Christ gave me my faith. If you have faith, then God gave it to you as well. If you love God, then God caused you to love Him. God is the giver of all good gifts. We cannot come to God unless He causes us to come to Him. The "whole bible" is not a sham but the doctrines of the harlot churches are.

Your beliefs that you express have no scriptural support. You were taught those beliefs by spiritually blind men who do not know God or His Son. My beliefs are founded upon the Word of God and are not "pet theories". Unless God heals a person's spiritual blindness, they will never understand or believe what God has said through His Word. The carnal eyes which all men have from birth will never let them see the gate that leads to God and the Kingdom of Heaven. That gate is the true Christ and we are all at God's mercy of healing us so that we can find it. He promises in scripture that all men have a time appointed for that healing. He will not allow even one of His children to remain lost. There is a time for every purpose under heaven.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe
 
Member
Joe,

Let's tackle one issue at a time ...

Re: the verses you have quoted, you're mixing up God's elect with the people of the world.

Paul's letters to Philippi and Ephesus were written to the elect.
All of this "you", "we", "us", etc. has nothing to do with the people of the world.

"To all the saints in Christ Jesus ..." (Phil. 1:1)

"To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus ..." (Eph. 1:1)

i.e. not to the pew-sitters, but to those who were walking the talk.
 
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Member
Joe,

Let's tackle one issue at a time ...

Re: the verses you have quoted, you're mixing up God's elect with the people of the world.

Paul's letters to Philippi and Ephesus were written to the elect.
All of this "you", "we", "us", etc. has nothing to do with the people of the world.

"To all the saints in Christ Jesus ..." (Phil. 1:1)

"To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus ..." (Eph. 1:1)

i.e. not to the pew-sitters, but to those who were walking the talk.
John,
Of course I understand that Paul wrote his letters to the churches that he started. That in no way changes the meaning of what Paul was stating in them.

Scripture breaks mankind down into three main groups.

1). The unbelieving world also referred to as "seas".

2). Those who have been "called" to the church who are also referred to as dwelling on the "earth".

3). Those that Christ has chosen out of the earth (the called) who are also referred to as saints, elect, and those that dwell in the heavens.

All men dwell in the "seas" until they are called to be saints. When we enter the "church", we enter as carnal men who are spiritually blind. The "called" dwell a little higher than the unbelievers and that is why they are referred to as dwelling on the earth. When God chooses us out of the "called", He causes us to start dwelling in the heavens with Him. That is the difference between walking by the flesh and walking by the Spirit.

Rev 3:15-16 refers to the same three groups as cold (unbelievers), lukewarm (the called) and the hot (the chosen). Christ considers the "lukewarm" to be the most unacceptable because they have become even worse than an unbeliever. They mistakenly follow after Satan who masquerades as Christ because they are carnally minded and have no spiritual understanding. They are quickly and easily deceived by Satan. Christ will say to this group "I never knew you".

It sounds as if you are saying that since Paul wrote his letters to the churches, everything he wrote about in the letters is limited to that group. If that is the game you are playing with scripture to get it to conform to your beliefs, then you will never understand God's plan for mankind. When scripture says that Christ was sent by the Father to be the Savior of the world, then you have to believe that the "world" is only the "church" since that is the only group you believe will be saved. With that type of reasoning, it is no wonder you believe what you believe.

You have let your "idols of the heart" pervert the Word of God.

May the Lord have mercy upon you,
Joe
 
Member
Hello Joe and John.

Nice day.

Different forms of the will of God in the Bible. It is extremely important to recognize that God acts in various ways toward mankind. One does not find the will of God through the scriptures in one inflexible
form.

God’s Decretive Will

There are events that can be described as God’s decretive will. A biblical description of God’s decretive will is found in Psalms 33:11, which says: “The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation,” and again in Isaiah 14:27, which says: “For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?”

It was God’s decretive will that was at work in the redemption of mankind in His Son Jesus (Acts 2:23; 4:28; Colossians 1:4). What God purposes cannot be thwarted. For example, in Romans 8:28-30, God has decreed that He will justify on the basis of a foreordained Christ (Acts 2:23; I Peter 1:19,20) a foreordained gospel plan (I Corinthians 2:7) and a foreordained life (Ephesians 2:10).

God’s Preceptive Will

But there is a second way in which the “will of God” is used in the Bible. This has to do not with what God purposed to do Himself but with what He desires for man to do. This can be described as God’s preceptive will and is primarily concerned with man’s obedience to His word or precepts. The writer of Hebrews speaks of the “will of God” in this sense when he writes: “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise” (Hebrews 10:36). In was in this sense that the Lord used the expression in Matthew 7:21: “Not every who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” When Jesus said “the will of My Father,” he was speaking of God’s precepts, statutes, or commandments. Consequently, it is in connection with God’s preceptive will—not His decretive will—that man is commanded to “work out his own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12).

Furthermore, it is in connection with God’s preceptive will that we understand that the Lord is “longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (II Peter 3:9). Actually, God’s desire (will) for the salvation of all men is reflected many places in His word (cf. I Timothy 2:4; Luke 7:30; Matthew 23:37), but such must be kept distinct from God’s decretive will. A failure to make such a distinction will cause one to land squarely within the Calvinist camp.

God’s Permissive Will

There is a third sense in which the “will of God” is used in the Scriptures. It can be described as God’s permissive will. Perhaps it is with God’s permissive will that men have the most trouble. In this category are to be found all those things which God neither purposes nor desires, but which he allows man in his freedom to bring about. There is a sense in which this third category is related to the second, God’s preceptive will. With a strict use of the word “permissive,” it can be seen that man’s response to God’s desire or preceptive will is not decreed or purposed by Him and is, therefore, permitted. In other words, God does not make someone obey His laws; in the strictest sense, He permits one to do so.

But that which makes this third category different from the second is not the presence of God’s permission, but the absence of a stated desire on God’s part that these events or circumstances should happen. In this category are events God neither purposed nor desired, but, nevertheless, permits, including some things that are clearly contrary to His stated desire (will), such as man’s sins. Therefore, when, in Jeremiah 19:5, God said: “They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into my mind,” He made it plain that it was not His will they were doing, decreed or preceptive. In other words, it was not the mind (will) of God that they should do such a thing. Nevertheless, the Lord permitted His people to exercise their free wills and do those things clearly contrary to His counsel (will). Things such as this are within the “will of God” only in the sense that He permits them to happen (cf. Acts 17:24-30; 14:16; Romans 1:18-32).

Surely you two are aware that the will of God has different forms?
 
Member
Nice day.

Different forms of the will of God in the Bible. It is extremely important to recognize that God acts in various ways toward mankind. One does not find the will of God through the scriptures in one inflexible
form.

God’s Decretive Will

There are events that can be described as God’s decretive will. A biblical description of God’s decretive will is found in Psalms 33:11, which says: “The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation,” and again in Isaiah 14:27, which says: “For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?”

It was God’s decretive will that was at work in the redemption of mankind in His Son Jesus (Acts 2:23; 4:28; Colossians 1:4). What God purposes cannot be thwarted. For example, in Romans 8:28-30, God has decreed that He will justify on the basis of a foreordained Christ (Acts 2:23; I Peter 1:19,20) a foreordained gospel plan (I Corinthians 2:7) and a foreordained life (Ephesians 2:10).

God’s Preceptive Will

But there is a second way in which the “will of God” is used in the Bible. This has to do not with what God purposed to do Himself but with what He desires for man to do. This can be described as God’s preceptive will and is primarily concerned with man’s obedience to His word or precepts. The writer of Hebrews speaks of the “will of God” in this sense when he writes: “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise” (Hebrews 10:36). In was in this sense that the Lord used the expression in Matthew 7:21: “Not every who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” When Jesus said “the will of My Father,” he was speaking of God’s precepts, statutes, or commandments. Consequently, it is in connection with God’s preceptive will—not His decretive will—that man is commanded to “work out his own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12).

Furthermore, it is in connection with God’s preceptive will that we understand that the Lord is “longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (II Peter 3:9). Actually, God’s desire (will) for the salvation of all men is reflected many places in His word (cf. I Timothy 2:4; Luke 7:30; Matthew 23:37), but such must be kept distinct from God’s decretive will. A failure to make such a distinction will cause one to land squarely within the Calvinist camp.

God’s Permissive Will

There is a third sense in which the “will of God” is used in the Scriptures. It can be described as God’s permissive will. Perhaps it is with God’s permissive will that men have the most trouble. In this category are to be found all those things which God neither purposes nor desires, but which he allows man in his freedom to bring about. There is a sense in which this third category is related to the second, God’s preceptive will. With a strict use of the word “permissive,” it can be seen that man’s response to God’s desire or preceptive will is not decreed or purposed by Him and is, therefore, permitted. In other words, God does not make someone obey His laws; in the strictest sense, He permits one to do so.

But that which makes this third category different from the second is not the presence of God’s permission, but the absence of a stated desire on God’s part that these events or circumstances should happen. In this category are events God neither purposed nor desired, but, nevertheless, permits, including some things that are clearly contrary to His stated desire (will), such as man’s sins. Therefore, when, in Jeremiah 19:5, God said: “They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into my mind,” He made it plain that it was not His will they were doing, decreed or preceptive. In other words, it was not the mind (will) of God that they should do such a thing. Nevertheless, the Lord permitted His people to exercise their free wills and do those things clearly contrary to His counsel (will). Things such as this are within the “will of God” only in the sense that He permits them to happen (cf. Acts 17:24-30; 14:16; Romans 1:18-32).

Surely you two are aware that the will of God has different forms?
David,
I am aware that theologians and seminaries teach on this subject to help explain why their teachings are contradictory to God's Word. However, scripture does not teach or agree with such reasoning - it is extra-biblical, like so much of the mainstream church's teachings. God does not "allow" or "permit" anything. He is the cause of all things. "Free will" is also extra-biblical. As with the subject above, there are no scriptures that support "free will". If there were scriptures, then God's Word would be in conflict with itself which cannot happen. If "free will" were true, don't you think Paul or someone would have taught concerning it. They didn't though, but they did teach that God is the cause of all things and that His will and purposes are fulfilled in our lives. He sets our direction and path. He causes us to "will" and "do of His good pleasure". And these scriptures are not just speaking of those who have the Holy Spirit. It is true of all men.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart of man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 21:1 Man's goings are of the LORD, how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

There simply are no scriptures that say "man directs his own paths" or "God allows man to set his own course" or "man creates his own destiny" or "God allows man's will to supersede His will" or "man has a will that is free from causality". EVERYTHING (good or evil) that happens in this creation was planned and caused by God to happen.

The carnal reasoning of man has perverted the truth of scripture. It is God's will for it to be so. God has even said that He sent a strong delusion so that they will be deceive:

2Thes 2:7-12 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This verse is not speaking of the "antichrist" or some other figure "out there". This is speaking of a harlot christian who has been deceived into actually following Satan. The "man of sin" is inside us, the one who follows Satan. When Christ comes to us a second time, the brightness of His appearing will destroy our man of sin. But for now, it is God's will for it to be this way. But only for now, not always. Christ will appear again to each of us, not in the flesh again as He did the first time, but in the Spirit. When He comes, He will heal our blindness and we will be able to look back and see how deceived we were. But until a person experiences the brightness of the Lord's second coming, they will remain deceived. And when someone is deceived, they cannot know that they are. That is the nature of being deceived.

The harlotry of the carnal church is a "mystery" or is hidden in scripture. I did not understand or know of any such thing until after the Lord's second appearing to me. Once my vision was healed, the scriptures opened up for me. The "strong delusion" was removed by the Lord and my "man of sin" that was created in the harlot church was destroyed. My life was changed forever. He did this for my wife on the same day back in October 2005. But not only for me, but for all those whom He has chosen since the time of the apostles. I know many such Christians that have a testimony very similar to mine though they are few in number. Once Christ appears a second time, true growth in Christ starts. I pray that the Lord will take me on to maturity so that I will be "like Him" on the day He calls me from my grave. If not, I will go on to judgment but my ultimate salvation is assured as is the ultimate salvation of everyone. I am in His hands. I am His work. He is the master potter and I am the clay. He is the one who will make me into God's image. I cannot "free will" myself into it. I do not have that power. I have nothing to boast about. There was nothing good in me that brought the Lord's favor upon me. The "man of sin" in me was ruling in God's temple (my body). Then suddenly, the Lord came to His temple (me). I was not expecting Him but He came nonetheless.

The Lord is tender, loving, full of mercy and goodness. I chose to follow Him because I love Him. But my choice was not out of some fabled "free will". My choice and ability to follow Him was only possible because of His grace and mercy upon me. He was the cause behind it all. He does not force me to follow Him but He causes it nonetheless.

Someday, my testimony will be everyone's testimony and then every knee will "willing" bow to Him and proclaim Him Lord, to the glory of the Father.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe
 
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Member
Hello Joe.

Joe I was very surprised at your response.

The post was 100% scripture, illustrating the different degrees of God's will.
Which is obvious from the scriptural passages that were used as examples.

Then you stated the following:

There simply are no scriptures that say "man directs his own paths" or
"God allows man to set his own course" or "man creates his own destiny" or
"God allows man's will to supersede His will" or "man has a will that is free from
causality". EVERYTHING (good or evil) that happens in this creation was planned
and caused by God to happen.


The whole Bible is full to the brim of people who steer there own course through life
and will pay the consequences. These people are examples for us, so that we do not
make the same mistakes.

I must strongly object to the use of "causality", this a non-biblical term. Causality is a philosophical term Joe.
I do not believe man has free will but I do not believe we are robotrons either.

Man makes choices everyday this is undeniable.
God's decretive will cannot be thwarted or altered this is also beyond question.

I am sorry Joe but there are multiple levels to decisions and the will of God.
It is not theology it is written in the scripture.
 
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Member
the pied piper of noise

from John Zain:

The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.
John, you've quoted "scripture" (nearly 900 words) from a copyrighted book that some man would claim to own. Legally, anything over 200 words requires the copyright holder's permission in writing.

In any case, the description of Lucifer is inaccurate. Rather, my un-copyrighted Holy Bible says this:

...the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. (Ezekiel 28:13 KJV)

We have two completely different descriptions of the origins of Lucifer's musical instruments! Yours says Lucifer's instruments were prepared for him; mine says Lucifer's instruments were built right into his body.

Lucifer's gift was music. And then he was cast out as profane. But he didn't lose his musical ability.

Today, the discerning would agree that the world is bathed in perverted "music" -- by the god of this world.
 
Member
Joe I was very surprised at your response.

The post was 100% scripture, illustrating the different degrees of God's will.
Which is obvious from the scriptural passages that were used as examples.

Then you stated the following:

There simply are no scriptures that say "man directs his own paths" or
"God allows man to set his own course" or "man creates his own destiny" or
"God allows man's will to supersede His will" or "man has a will that is free from
causality". EVERYTHING (good or evil) that happens in this creation was planned
and caused by God to happen.


The whole Bible is full to the brim of people who steer there own course through life
and will pay the consequences. These people are examples for us, so that we do not
make the same mistakes.

I must strongly object to the use of "causality", this a non-biblical term. Causality is a philosophical term Joe.
I do not believe man has free will but I do not believe we are robotrons either.

Man makes choices everyday this is undeniable.
God's decretive will cannot be thwarted or altered this is also beyond question.

I am sorry Joe but there are multiple levels to decisions and the will of God.
It is not theology it is written in the scripture.
David,
You are still equating "making choices" as "free will". The ability to make a choice says nothing about whether one has free will or not. The "cause" of the choice is all that matters. If one has "free will", then the choices that they make are free from someone's control. The scripture makes it very clear that God is in control of the choices we make. Do you not know that all the Old testament history, such as the story of Joseph, Noah, Moses, 40 years in the wilderness, etc., etc. all contain spiritual messages for those whom God has given the eyes to see and perceive. Every aspects of those happenings were controlled by God to teach us a spiritual Truth that Christ will fulfill. If man had a "free will", then such events from the Old Testament would say nothing to us. As I have said before, the bible is basically one large parable of spiritual truths. If man had a "free will", then this would not be possible. Just because when a story is written down without it specifically stating that God caused the people involved to make the choices they made, does not mean that He didn't. In other places in scripture, God tells us that it is He who is behind all the choices that are made. I have quoted you a few of those scriptures but somehow they hold no meaning to you. You have yet to show me any scriptures that say that God lets mankind direct his own paths and because those scriptures do not exist, you are forced to come up with extra-biblical theories.

Extra-biblical theories are the backbone of much of the false teachings in the harlot churches. Here is a common one; What happens to a 5 year old child after He dies who has sinned but has never even heard of Jesus much less accepted Him? Does God cast that child to hell with all the other sinners? Most churches say no and base their support on extra-biblical theories (such as an age of accountability). Nearly no one believes that God would torture in fire a 5 year old child so they are forced to come up with an extra-biblical reason why God won't do such a horrible thing. They usually say that the child will be allowed an opportunity after death to accept Christ or not. If he makes the wrong choice, then into the fire he goes. But where are their scriptures? Where is the accountable age scripture. If all children under 12 get a free pass to heaven, then why not guarantee their salvation by making sure no child lives to be 12?

What about those who lived and died before Christ was born? Surely they must have a chance to know Christ and make a decision before God would cast them into hell??? So they come up with more extra-biblical babble to help make their doctrine of hell more believable.

The doctrine of "free will" is no different. If they would stick to what the scriptures say, then no extra-biblical theories are needed because there is no teaching of free will in them. As the harlot church evolved throughout this age, her teachings have become so self-contradictory and evil that I look back and can't believe that I used to believe them. But I was under the strong delusion that God had sent to the harlot church and I believed the lie - the lie that I was following Christ when in reality, I was following Satan and was a child of the devil. My "man of sin" (my carnal religious self) was sitting in God's temple (inside me) proclaiming that he was God. The doctrine of "free will" is the man of sin's foundational support. No one is more self righteous than a harlot Christian and Christ will spew them out of His mouth into judgment until they have been destroyed (died to self, destruction of the man of sin). The New Man in Christ will be all that remains. The man of sin will be destroyed through judgment but through that fire we will be saved. This process of destruction is the same for all men. The church is first in this life and the rest of mankind in the final age. The carnal mind does not want to die but die it will - the brightness of His appearing is no match for carnal mankind.

If you ever want to convince me of anything, then you must show me a double witness of scripture instead of saying "it is taught throughout the entire bible". Show me the specific scriptures that teach what you say is taught and how they do not conflict with the scriptures that I have presented. It can't be done.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe
 
Member
John,
Of course I understand that Paul wrote his letters to the churches that he started.
That in no way changes the meaning of what Paul was stating in them.
... It sounds as if you are saying that since Paul wrote his letters to the churches,
everything he wrote about in the letters is limited to that group.
If that is the game you are playing with scripture to get it to conform to your beliefs,
then you will never understand God's plan for mankind.
I was under the impression that Christians believe Paul wrote his letters to the churches he started
... to guide them, to teach them further, to chastise them, to encourage them, even to praise them.

That others (like you) may possibly benefit from these writings is just more of God's grace.

And also, there is a good Looney Tunes dvd that I'd be happy to buy for you.
 
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