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Demonic possession-v-Demonic influence!

Ever read the newspapers?

Every now and then in the media, a story appears about
a person hearing voices. The voices tell the person to
kill or hurt someone else. This is fact, it is an issue in
mental health, it is called schizophrenia with auditory
hallucination.

Of course the medical profession cannot cure it.

Now I wonder who the voices really are?

Hmmmmm.

No demonic influence in the western world?

Hmmmmm.
 
Every now and then in the media, a story appears about
a person hearing voices. The voices tell the person to
kill or hurt someone else. This is fact, it is an issue in
mental health, it is called schizophrenia with auditory
hallucination.

Of course the medical profession cannot cure it.

Now I wonder who the voices really are?

Hmmmmm.

No demonic influence in the western world?

Hmmmmm.

LOL Love that subtle sarcasm!!
 
Yeah El Hombre viejo.

I think some people live in cocoons oblivious to the
real world, demonic influence is very prevalent in
the western world.

It is true of course, I in fact have met two people that
heard voices in their heads. Very unnerving talking to them.

One of them was such a nice fellow, he complained that the
voices were shouting at him and he had to leave.

I felt so sorry for him, he was alone the voices did not
allow him to associate with others. I have never forgotten
our brief conversation, what cruel voices they were.
 
I think some people live in cocoons oblivious to the
real world, demonic influence is very prevalent in
the western world.

It is true of course, I in fact have met two people that
heard voices in their heads. Very unnerving talking to them.

One of them was such a nice fellow, he complained that the
voices were shouting at him and he had to leave.

I felt so sorry for him, he was alone the voices did not
allow him to associate with others. I have never forgotten
our brief conversation, what cruel voices they were.

I've seen similar. Demonic activity works best when the people believe that it doesn't exist. That way there is no defense against it. If you don't believe you are under attack you simply lie back and relax...and get plowed under
 
Again.

If they just read the Bible they would understand that
Jesus drove the demons out of many.

The 70 people that Jesus sent out in Luke also were
involved in exorcism of some description.

Luke 10:17
Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”

It would be very nieve to ignore the demonic realm.
http://www.talkjesus.com/passage/?search=Luke+10:16-18&version=NKJV
 
Ananais thought he was lying to men Jari.

Here read the following statement.

"You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

This is what Ananias had misunderstood.

Jari, you asked me how I arrived at the conclusion
that Ananias was a believer.

It is not a conclusion, this is the flow of the passages in Acts 5.

It does not say Ananias was an unbeliever.

It says he was among the believers.

I am not interrupting the passages and inserting
an alternative meaning.

There is a parallel to this episode in Acts, here read
the following.

David let me ask you one question. Do you believe its possible there's unbeliever among believers?

the answer to this question defines the likehood of your conclusion..
 
Jari Back up one chapter and see who was being talked about. Annanias and Saphira were included in this group. Annanias was even filled with the HOLY SPIRIT.

You really want to read the entire account so you know what was going on.

Hi El Hombre viejo,

can you please post scripture where it states Annanias was filled with Holy spirit?
 
Hello Jari.

Hello Jari, nice to receive a reply from you, i do appreciate that.

You said,

David let me ask you one question. Do you believe its possible there's unbeliever among believers?

What a strange question, i think the answer is obvious.

We were discussing Acts 5, there was no mention that Ananias was an unbeliever.

So what has you question got to do with the passages?

Unless of course you would wish to rewrite Acts and insert your version.

Jari you have no base to stand on, Acts is clear and my argument is solid.

My argument is what the text says Jari, not an inflected interpretation.

You are rowing against the current Jari.

Try not to take this in a personal way, relax.
 
Hi El Hombre viejo,

can you please post scripture where it states Annanias was filled with Holy spirit?

Read from Acts 4:31 to Acts 5:5

Annanias was part of the group. The whole group was filled with the HOLY SPIRIT
 
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David let me ask you one question. Do you believe its possible there's unbeliever among believers?

What a strange question, i think the answer is obvious.

therefore it's possible annanias was unbeliever among believers.


Read from Acts 4:31 to Acts 5:5

Annanias was part of the group. The whole group was filled with the HOLY SPIRIT

well i read those and i believe what i said to james applies here.
 
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therefore it's possible annanias was unbeliever among believers.




well i read those and i believe what i said to james applies here.


Refresh my memory here please. All were filled with the HOLY SPIRIT it says. That would include Annanias who was there. Still, filled with the HOLY SPIRIT Annanias could still make a choice. And he did. And wrongly.
 
Refresh my memory here please. All were filled with the HOLY SPIRIT it says. That would include Annanias who was there. Still, filled with the HOLY SPIRIT Annanias could still make a choice. And he did. And wrongly.

all were yes. was annanias part of that all? scripture seems to imply that they came aboard later on (or tried to).

it also says in this verse believers were added afterwards:

14And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

would be odd to me if we could say with given information that annanias was truly a believer.
 
Hello Jari.

Could you explain in more detail what you mean by this line.

"all were yes. was annanias part of that all? scripture seems to imply that they came aboard later on (or tried to)."

I am sorry Jari, to me it seems to be a contradiction.
 
Could you explain in more detail what you mean by this line.

"all were yes. was annanias part of that all? scripture seems to imply that they came aboard later on (or tried to)."

I am sorry Jari, to me it seems to be a contradiction.

it just says all believers were filled but it doesnt say was annanias part of this "all",
he seem'd to have joined later on.
 
Back again Jari.

Show me Jari where in Acts 4,5 that Ananias is not part of the "all".

Also, where does it say that Ananias joined later on.

All you need is the scriptural justification so we can proceed.
 
Many profess godliness but....

....far too often, when they are reproved for a fault, they become defensive and angry. This then often leads to greater sins, until a complete falling away is manifested. God's purpose in dealing so harshly with Ananias and Sapphira was to ensure that His people learned early that a pure church without blemish and without spot was God's desire. Hypocrisy, lying, dishonesty, covetousness, greed, these sins were not to be tolerated among God's people. So much for the contention by some that God's commandments needn't be observed. Here is a salutary lesson indeed that God's commandments were as meaningful and applicable to the New Testament Christian as they were to anyone from the time of Adam.
Ananias and Sapphira acted the part of deceivers. Pretending to make an entire sacrifice to God, they covetously and selfishly kept part of the sale price back to use for themselves. The Holy Spirit revealed the truth to the Apostles, revealed the true nature of these pretenders to the faith, and the immediate judgement of God was to rid the church of this blot upon its purity.
This was sure evidence of the presence of God among the early church, and this act became a terror to hypocrites and evil doers. Such could no longer remain in connection with those who in habit and disposition were constant representatives of Christ; and as persecutions arose shortly thereafter, I can imagine that only those who had forsaken all, only those who had consecrated themselves entirely and surrendered their whole lives to Him for truth's sake endured. Christ's true disciples give 100%.
Matt.16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Lu 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

In the matter of whether Ananias and Sapphira were Christians, I am inclined toward Jari's view, though loathe to make a conclusive judgement. That they died as non-Christians there can be no doubt. If they were Christian at some stage, if they had accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour, at what stage did they lose their salvation? When they devised their lie together? Or when they acted upon it before witnesses? Mmmmm. Raises a heap more questions doesn't it.
It could be that the scripture, although stating all were filled with the Holy Spirit, didn't immediately state ...except (Ananias and Sapphira)...but left it to a few verses later to describe the nature of that exception.

This is a lesson also for these final days as God prepares His people for His coming. As we appraoch the final crisis, only 100% consecration and surrender will empower us to endure the temptations and persecutions that will no doubt assail the children of God in these last days. Half-heartedness, hypocrisy, lawlessness, disobedience and worldiness will surely place us in jeopardy of missing out on being a vital part of the greatest event in the history of mankind. The soon coming of our Lord and Saviour to take His people home.
 
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....far too often, when they are reproved for a fault, they become defensive and angry. This then often leads to greater sins, until a complete falling away is manifested. God's purpose in dealing so harshly with Ananias and Sapphira was to ensure that His people learned early that a pure church without blemish and without spot was God's desire. Hypocrisy, lying, dishonesty, covetousness, greed, these sins were not to be tolerated among God's people. So much for the contention by some that God's commandments needn't be observed. Here is a salutary lesson indeed that God's commandments were as meaningful and applicable to the New Testament Christian as they were to anyone from the time of Adam.
Ananias and Sapphira acted the part of deceivers. Pretending to make an entire sacrifice to God, they covetously and selfishly kept part of the sale price back to use for themselves. The Holy Spirit revealed the truth to the Apostles, revealed the true nature of these pretenders to the faith, and the immediate judgement of God was to rid the church of this blot upon its purity.
This was sure evidence of the presence of God among the early church, and this act became a terror to hypocrites and evil doers. Such could no longer remain in connection with those who in habit and disposition were constant representatives of Christ; and as persecutions arose shortly thereafter, I can imagine that only those who had forsaken all, only those who had consecrated themselves entirely and surrendered their whole lives to Him for truth's sake endured. Christ's true disciples give 100%.
Matt.16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Lu 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

In the matter of whether Ananias and Sapphira were Christians, I am inclined toward Jari's view, though loathe to make a conclusive judgement. That they died as non-Christians there can be no doubt. If they were Christian at some stage, if they had accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour, at what stage did they lose their salvation? When they devised their lie together? Or when they acted upon it before witnesses? Mmmmm. Raises a heap more questions doesn't it.
It could be that the scripture, although stating all were filled with the Holy Spirit, didn't immediately state ...except (Ananias and Sapphira)...but left it to a few verses later to describe the nature of that exception.

This is a lesson also for these final days as God prepares His people for His coming. As we appraoch the final crisis, only 100% consecration and surrender will empower us to endure the temptations and persecutions that will no doubt assail the children of God in these last days. Half-heartedness, hypocrisy, lawlessness, disobedience and worldiness will surely place us in jeopardy of missing out on being a vital part of the greatest event in the history of mankind. The soon coming of our Lord and Saviour to take His people home.


LOL Well I wouldn't say they selfishly kept some of the money from the sale...It was theirs to keep or give as they chose. If you sold your house, would it be selfish of you to keep all of the money from that sale? No. Its your money. Annanias and Saphira made a show of giving it all just to get praises Yes! They lied about it. Nobody would have thought the less of them if they had said " We sold our house too, and we're giving part of the proceeds. They would have lived.
 
Hello Brakelite.

Nice to receive input from someone else.

I''ll just reprint what you said,

In the matter of whether Ananias and Sapphira were Christians,
I am inclined toward Jari's view, though loathe to make a conclusive judgement.
That they died as non-Christians there can be no doubt. If they were Christian at some stage,
if they had accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour, at what stage did they lose their salvation?
When they devised their lie together? Or when they acted upon it before witnesses?
Mmmmm. Raises a heap more questions doesn't it. It could be that the scripture, although stating
all were filled with the Holy Spirit, didn't immediately state ...
except (Ananias and Sapphira)...
but left it to a few verses later to describe the nature of that exception.


There is a problem with saying too much in a post.

My replies will be to every statement you made, hence an encyclopedic reply.
That is why Jari, El Hombre viejo, and myself use simple statements,
they ensure a simple reply, preferred.

1) The text is the absolute standard, all ideas need scriptural
support from within the text.

So I will look at one of your statements Brakelite.

"at what stage did they lose their salvation?"


This is where you would need to supply the scripture in Acts
to support this idea. In my reading of Acts 5 there is no mention
that they lost their Salvation. Where does it say that they did not believe in Jesus.
They lied, they thought to men, surely this does not determine their final destiny,
a lie means damnation??

The simple reading of the text is the best, this avoids inserting ideas into the text.

The text says "all" not some or a few.
 
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Ananias and Saphira made a show of giving it all just to get praises Yes!
There is not much information to go on but that would be my guess also.
They may have been trying to secure a place of endearment in the movement.We can only speculate as to this or whether they were there during the initial shaking.
What is clear is that this is a serious move of God.
They may have simply died from heart failure due to the epiphany that their every thought was known by God.
 
They may have simply died from heart failure due to the epiphany that their every thought was known by God.

LOL Have you ever thought about the ramifications of lying to a GOD who knows everything? The uselessness of your effort, the futile, effusive babblings of a foolish man. I thought about it once....I discovered that I was not that foolish after all.
 
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