Demonic possession-v-Demonic influence!

[David777]

Hello Jari.

In your reply Jari I noticed that you contradicted yourself.

Here, read what you wrote, correct it and get back to me.

Then I will understand what you are in fact saying.

Oh, and look up the meaning of revival Jari.

"they just wanted to be part of God's church though they didnt have faith like others. They saw a revival and wanted to be part of it. Anyone wants to be part of big events right?
They saw something big was going on and wanted part of that, even they may not know what it was all about and they probably figured they need to sell their lands to get in it, so they did.
no mention weather they had faith or not God doesnt kill of his children who try to lie to to Him. and God's children know better that you cant lie to God. Only person who has no knowledge of God would try to trick God as he doesnt know how great God is.
scripture is absolutely silent regarding their faith status and its more reasonable assumption to assume they didnt have any faith or knowledge what it was all about.they just wanted to be part of it too."

 

[jari]

In your reply Jari I noticed that you contradicted yourself.

Here, read what you wrote, correct it and get back to me.

Then I will understand what you are in fact saying.

Oh, and look up the meaning of revival Jari.

"they just wanted to be part of God's church though they didnt have faith like others. They saw a revival and wanted to be part of it. Anyone wants to be part of big events right?
They saw something big was going on and wanted part of that, even they may not know what it was all about and they probably figured they need to sell their lands to get in it, so they did.
no mention weather they had faith or not God doesnt kill of his children who try to lie to to Him. and God's children know better that you cant lie to God. Only person who has no knowledge of God would try to trick God as he doesnt know how great God is.
scripture is absolutely silent regarding their faith status and its more reasonable assumption to assume they didnt have any faith or knowledge what it was all about.they just wanted to be part of it too."

hi david. I didnt contradict my self.......

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

Here is the contradiction Jari.

Read what you said,

no mention weather they had faith or not

scripture is absolutely silent regarding their faith

though they didnt have faith like others.

Notice the last line is contradicting the previous two lines.

In the last line your saying there faith was weak?
Which is a contradiction of the first line.

Or, your saying they did not have faith in the first place.
Which is a contradiction of the first and second lines.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

If I can be honest, I am of the understanding that we can be demonised. The question arises can a Christian be demonised. That is a great debate that has been around for a long time I gather. Saul was tormented by demons which may equate to mental illness. He knew the Lord as did Ananias and Judas.

(1 Samuel 16:14) The spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and he was tormented by an evil spirit sent by the LORD. (15) So the servants of Saul said to him: "Please! An evil spirit from God is tormenting you.

This may answer the question of can the hand of the Lord depart from you or once saved can we lose our salvation.

As Christians we believe in a spiritual realm. So can we as Christians be demonised? (Matt 16:23) He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do."

This verse indicates it was not a rhetorical statement but rather a confirmation that Satan can hinder us.

I have had personal experience of deliverance from the snare of the enemy and can say if we believe Jesus is Lord and live out our life’s according to the Word of God the enemy can tempt us (Matt 4:1) and may even speak to us through our minds; yet a poem I wrote answers this question for ME.

“There’s an Angel on my shoulder and a demon on my back with the sword of truth’s full frontal attack.”

Put on the full armour of God and be diligent and aware the enemy wants you to succumb to his way of thinking. We are in a war for our minds and soul.

Our thoughts belong to us and God. We can be tormented as Saul was and even rebuked as Peter was yet if our heart, mind and soul are towards God we know the Enemy will come to kill, steal and destroy what is rightfully given to us through Jesus. So both possession and influence can be true.

In saying this, there is much to be said that we or I cannot understand, trying to make sense of it is part of our journey. I am only a layman but think of these things the best I can.

Peace Be With You.

Hey Fallen. I really hate the use of the word "demonized' because so many Christians take it to mean 'possessed'. No Christian can be possessed although Mikes example was close to it. That man, if he ever became possessed would in effect no longer be a Christian because he would have to give way and give way until he had given away all his will and life to Satan. Whether or not he was still saved in another discussion.
But my point is....Can you use a different word that is more consise?

BTW. Why do you use the name "Fallen"? You are not fallen. You are a child of the Most High GOD.

 

[David777]

Hello all.

Found this on the internet.

The Demonic Voices Had To Go.

At the tender age of 11, however, I became born again. And while I was definitely lacking in tact and mercy (I vividly recall telling my brothers they were “going to hell” every time they did something I thought to be a sin!), I immediately embarked on a wonderful relationship with Jesus. Unfortunately, my ship got off course … way off course.

Our home was rocked with divorce. The world came calling. Religion grew boring. And I deliberately turned my back on everything I knew to be right. By the time I was 21 years old, I was a mess. I was drinking and getting drunk all the time, smoking almost two packs of cigarettes a day, popping speed like it was candy, smoking weed for a good time, and don’t even get me started on the bar-hopping! I was completely and utterly miserable. If that wasn’t enough, I began hearing “voices” when I was 19 years old. My beloved grandmother had spent a great deal of time in the state’s mental institution, diagnosed with schizophrenia when she was just a young mother. She was a dear, sweet woman and I loved her, but she heard “voices” until the day that she died. And now the “voices” had started in on me. But…someone was praying.



My mom and some of her friends had begun praying for me – fervently, faithfully praying. And so I once again became convicted of my sin and fell on my knees in my bedroom floor, giving my heart and my whole life back to Jesus. One moment my soul was blackened with sin and the next it was as white as snow! I was a new creature, just like the Bible says, and all those old things had passed away! What a joy to experience freedom and release from all that bondage – I was like a prisoner who suddenly had a death sentence commuted and now found herself “in the free world” with her whole life in front of her!



About a week later, I had a chance to deal with those “voices” that had so terrified me for two years. I was putting on my makeup and here they came, just like before - a hateful, demonic presence surrounding me. Voices which I could hear clearly inside my head were telling me that I was no good, not loved and much, much worse. But this time was different. This time, I knew that Jesus lived in my heart and I quickly recalled how He had dealt with the devil and his demons when He walked on this earth. He was never afraid of them. He was in control in every situation and He cast them out all the time. So I said out loud to that demonic presence, “You have no right to me. I belong to Jesus now. Get out of here!” And they took off, because I had realized that “greater is He [Jesus] that is in me, than he [the devil] that is in the world!” And then I finished putting on my makeup.

 

[Furious_Love]

Hey Fallen. I really hate the use of the word "demonized' because so many Christians take it to mean 'possessed'. No Christian can be possessed although Mikes example was close to it. That man, if he ever became possessed would in effect no longer be a Christian because he would have to give way and give way until he had given away all his will and life to Satan. Whether or not he was still saved in another discussion.

Hello Brother El Hombre Viejo, I live in the western world and I think over the years the word Demon & Satan has diminished due to our culture that veers away from such terms as they seem outdated and obscure. As Christians we believe in satan and his hoard. Outside of western culture apart from the occult many cultures believe in demonic influence and possession. We live in a physical yet spiritual world we accept as truth through scripture. To deny the existence of it (Spiritual Realm) means we deny the Spiritual World which we live in and thus deny scripture.

But my point is....Can you use a different word that is more consise?

What else can I call it when scripture uses such terms. I do understand what you mean though and I cannot think of another way to put it. I believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God and hence use its terms. Our thoughts belong to us and God. Satan has been around long enough to know how to influence certain individuals and even possess them. We are in a war for our souls and western culture through science has tried to invent new ways of what is written in the Word to mean something else. As I said before can you count out Mental Illness as part of the spiritual world, I think they are both related. Jesus came to set us free from certain death and an eternity in hell. This is all spiritual.

BTW. Why do you use the name "Fallen"? You are not fallen. You are a child of the Most High GOD.

When I joined in 2005 I was born-again yet I was leading a life which fell outside of God’s boundaries. Our world we live in is fallen and we rely on Christ to redeem us from our fallen state. It seemed appropriate that fallen would be my pseudonym because I was a work in progress. The years have passed and as I grow in the Lord I know I am a Child of the most High. Yet I still fall and need help up from my Lord.

Hope this has to some degree answered your questions. If not I will try elaborate more next time.

 

[Brother Mike]

I think we pretty much made it clear.

OK, can we wrap this up?

We know giving place to thoughts the devil can get a hold of our minds.
We see people possessed by devils in the bible that were crazy.

We see people motivated by the devil to say things, like in Peter's case.

We see the devil kill two believers who where not crazy, but lied and did as the devil led them to do.

Books have been written... Possessed in spirit, possessed in mind, oppressed.

Jesus said the devil minds the things of man. God said he is the King over the children of pride. (Job)

Acts 16:16 we see a women that is able to function, though the bible calls her possessed.
So, I can make a strong case for being mentally controlled. Does this mean possessed? or very heavy oppressed in mind? Does it mean in our spirit? I see different levels of place given in the mind. This can happen to anyone saved, or not saved.



Now, certain books say different, but I have to stick with what I see in the scriptures.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

Here is the contradiction Jari.

Read what you said,

no mention weather they had faith or not

scripture is absolutely silent regarding their faith

though they didnt have faith like others.

Notice the last line is contradicting the previous two lines.

In the last line your saying there faith was weak?
Which is a contradiction of the first line.

Or, your saying they did not have faith in the first place.
Which is a contradiction of the first and second lines.

right thanks for clearing that up. Actually its not contradiction, what i meant is scripture doesnt say what kind of faith they had but we can see they have different kind of faith that others (assuming no faith)

 

[jari]

OK, can we wrap this up?

We know giving place to thoughts the devil can get a hold of our minds.
We see people possessed by devils in the bible that were crazy.

We see people motivated by the devil to say things, like in Peter's case.

We see the devil kill two believers who where not crazy, but lied and did as the devil led them to do.

Books have been written... Possessed in spirit, possessed in mind, oppressed.

Jesus said the devil minds the things of man. God said he is the King over the children of pride. (Job)

Acts 16:16 we see a women that is able to function, though the bible calls her possessed.
So, I can make a strong case for being mentally controlled. Does this mean possessed? or very heavy oppressed in mind? Does it mean in our spirit? I see different levels of place given in the mind. This can happen to anyone saved, or not saved.



Now, certain books say different, but I have to stick with what I see in the scriptures.

Jesus Is Lord.

Mike, demonic possesion and influence are two different things - i believe.

You said devil killed two believers?
why do you insist something that cannot be backed by scripture?

Actually it says the opposite here:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

i believe we are safe. certainly no devil can pluck us out of God's hand.


i dont think God wants us to make assumptions by His word... we should have facts or not preach something.
otherwise i'm sure u'll understand where that can lead, it can lead to any kind of false beliefs that are harmful to people's faith.

have you heard that its possible for some one to go to church and actually be not believer? or some one goto church believing in God and in Jesus and not accept him as lord? not be born again (receive holy spirit) ?
its very possible people "believe" but theres wide ranges of levels of faith and beliefs as well.

i hope you now see the problem here calling some one saved just because he "believes" .

if you didnt before you do now...

God bless you

 

[Furious_Love]

OK, can we wrap this up?

Why Brother Mike? Is this more opinion rather than scripture. If it is the fore I understand.

 

[Brighthouse]

Davy, never been to California?? lol Or down South? The enemy can be compared to a great white shark,or one who prowls around as a fake lion!( 1 Peter 5:8) He is always hungry,he is always looking to devour someone. It is his very nature to both lie, and steal from us.( john 10:10,John 8:44) I myself have dealt with a number of people who have had such problems. I myself did as well.

But not everyone is demon possessed, not everything is a demon either. This fear can be so consuming,that many brothers and sister cannot go far in there own faith because of such fear. But fear comes from doubt,and with doubt we do without.What can become fearful is that which we do not understand.

The disciples had such problems themselves!( matt 17:15-21)They forgot what Jesus talked about in Matt 6:16-18 not if you fast!! WHEN!!! you fast! I had one such case in a place called Corbin Kentucky. a little 12 year old girl who played with oujah boards, got caught up by a few bad spirits.

After the woman came to our Church to talk to some of us about her daughter, Holy Spirit knew this was a baddie. And told me to pray and fast for 3 days prior to going to see her,which I did. Spirits are like flys, some flys are bigger then others,but all fall under the power of Jesus!! ALL!! un like terrible movies like the exorcist which look to make Jesus weak. I guess so! Considering who help directed the movie!! ( same with rosemarys baby!

The very man who started the satan Church in San Fransciso Anton Le-vey now deceased. His church was called the coven back then in 1966. I know because I was a member of this horrible cult. I had more chains around my neck and on my body,that when one looked at me,they would have thought I was a chain and bondage store all by myself!

Jesus set me free,and through him I have seen many set free by his wonderful power! But understand,HIS POWER!! NOT MY!! I have none to defeat any baddies. I know many most wonder after this topic. Not all are called to this.in fact, to be most honest about this, few should ever look to be!

But I will tell you this! You become very sure of your faith! You better be!And you better know the Word of God! For Jesus Christ himself!!! Spoke the Word unto the devil!(Matt 4:1-11)

Why would Jesus himself have to?? being God in the flesh?? Because my brothers and sister what he said back in Psalm 138:2 holds true more then his very Name!Psalm 138:2 says "FOR YOU!!!! have magnified YOUR WORD!!! ABOVE!!!!! your very name!" That is why Jesus spoke!

That is why we speak from his Word!! IN!!!! HIS NAME!! ( Philippians 2:9-11)A double portion to the baddies! This promise given to believers is for all believers!! Not just a few?? What kind of promise is ever made by Jesus to a few?? ( mark 16:15-18) Now we are not to look for problems either.

But we have no fear of them if they do cross our path in Jesus! Luke 10:17-20!!!!! We rejoice our name in the Lambs book of LIFE!!! When I was delivered and filled with Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit taught me this!! ( 1 john 2:27) Whatsoever you say from me,show them,let not your words fill them,but mine! This promise I must keep!

That is why I show you Jesus!! Not me! To go forth in our lives and become conquers in Christ,we must first learn how to. Jesus and His Word,Jesus and his Word!( rom 8:35-39!) Blessing all.

 

[Brother Mike]

Possession by devils.

Jari:

Mike, demonic possesion and influence are two different things - i believe.

The men of God I listen to is the Word of Faith teaching. In that teaching is a difference of possessed and oppressed. I would like to use that. However, for this forum and Word study sake.......


The bible only talks about possessed, and we allow Hollywood to define that term for us.

Possessed in the bible means to be influenced by the devil.

daimonizomai or demonized as Fallen used is a combination of English words, to make up one Greek word. It means to be influenced by a devil.

Some translations say "They had a devil, and not used the word Possessed. Meaning a devil in your possession.

Thayer's Greeks says, to be under the power of a demon. Which anyone speaking in hate, or malice would be under the wrong spirit.

There are certain levels of control mentioned in the bible, all considered possession. That is what the word means.

Jari

You said devil killed two believers?
why do you insist something that cannot be backed by scripture?

That is pretty prideful Jari, I said something I can't back by scripture?

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Ananias and Sapphira Where both saved, Had they not been saved, They would not have tried to look good in front of the other bother's and sisters concerning their giving. They wanted to make it look as if they gave all to the Lord in front of everyone.

The held some back, and lied. Lying to any believer is lying to the Holy Spirit, Peter mentioned this to them. "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost"

They both understood what lying to the Holy Ghost meant, because they where both saved, and been around all the teaching. (Others have tried to explain their salvation to you Jari)

Peter said, why hath Satan filled your heart.

Satan had gotten enough place to fill their heart.........

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Satan had a place to Kill..........

So, Jari.

Where Ananias and Sapphira just two unsaved people passing by, and just thought on the spur of the moment to look good to the saved?

If they where not saved, then would they have understood lying to the Holy Ghost? Would they even know Peter?

If Satan did not Kill them, then Jesus or God must have right?
God and Jesus formed a team to kill, steal and destroy?

Think about it Brother.

Fallen:

Why Brother Mike? Is this more opinion rather than scripture. If it is the fore I understand.

I was more interested in everyone conclusion after we have discussed this, we don't have to wrap it up, I just wanted to see where everyone stood.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

Ananias and Sapphira Where both saved, Had they not been saved, They would not have tried to look good in front of the other bother's and sisters concerning their giving

how does this define saved versus unsaved? they could act hypocritically which they were.

and whatever the motivates where i dont understand how does that define saved.

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

Acts 4

32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul;
neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own,
but they had all things in common.

The background of this incident is the sharing between believers.Now look at the way Peter talks to Ananais.

Acts 5

3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?

4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control?
Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Peter is talking to a believer, certainly not to an unbeliever.
"Why have you conceived this thing in your heart"

If an unbeliever lies, you expect it Jari. If a Christian lies, this
is a different matter altogether, that is how Peter is talking to Ananias.

Your interpretation Jari is against the flow and meaning of these passages.

 

[jari]

Acts 4

32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul;
neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own,
but they had all things in common.

The background of this incident is the sharing between believers.Now look at the way Peter talks to Ananais.

Acts 5

3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?

4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control?
Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Peter is talking to a believer, certainly not to an unbeliever.
"Why have you conceived this thing in your heart"

If an unbeliever lies, you expect it Jari. If a Christian lies, this
is a different matter altogether, that is how Peter is talking to Ananias.

Your interpretation Jari is against the flow and meaning of these passages.

David I don't see how you come to this conclusion. Peter's response to annanias seems rather to be addressing unbeliever. As peter is telling he has tried to lie to Holy spirit. Believers wouldnt even try to do - atleast its more likely that they wont.

and even multitude of believers is gathered it doesnt mean ananias was beleiver too.

ananias thought peter was mere man so peter told him why his attemb of lying failed.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

David I don't see how you come to this conclusion. Peter's response to annanias seems rather to be addressing unbeliever. As peter is telling he has tried to lie to Holy spirit. Believers wouldnt even try to do - atleast its more likely that they wont.

and even multitude of believers is gathered it doesnt mean ananias was beleiver too.

ananias thought peter was mere man so peter told him why his attemb of lying failed.

Jari you are right in this respect. They were unbelievers in that while they were saved they did not believe the WORD. Just as you can be saved, (and I assume you are) and still disbelieve GODs Word about ,for example, your healing being a done deal... You could be saved and still die from any number of diseases even though the WORD says you were healed by JESUS stripes.

Still They lied to the HOLY SPIRIT which left them open to being killed by Satan. Yes we know it was Satan who killed them because GOD is life and death does not come out of life.

 

[jari]

I still don't understand how they could have been saved. a person walking into a church saying i wish to be saved is not saved yet is he? he can be called believer already though, but not saved yet. (and not spirit filled)
ananias seems to be just like that.
in my point of view...

 

[El Hombre viejo]

I still don't understand how they could have been saved. a person walking into a church saying i wish to be saved is not saved yet is he? he can be called believer already though, but not saved yet. (and not spirit filled)
ananias seems to be just like that.
in my point of view...

Jari Back up one chapter and see who was being talked about. Annanias and Saphira were included in this group. Annanias was even filled with the HOLY SPIRIT.

You really want to read the entire account so you know what was going on.

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

Ananais thought he was lying to men Jari.

Here read the following statement.

"You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

This is what Ananias had misunderstood.

Jari, you asked me how I arrived at the conclusion
that Ananias was a believer.

It is not a conclusion, this is the flow of the passages in Acts 5.

It does not say Ananias was an unbeliever.

It says he was among the believers.

I am not interrupting the passages and inserting
an alternative meaning.

There is a parallel to this episode in Acts, here read
the following.

1 Corinthians 11

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy
manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself,
not discerning the Lord’s body.

30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

This is exactly what happened to Ananias Jari.
Ananias thought he could lie to men and maintain
some of his assets. A very common practice in the
modern church.

God refines us Jari, we are judged now Jari, not later.
Ananias was judged immediately so that Ananias will
not be condemned with the world.

Acts 5, does not say Ananias was an unbeliever, if he
was it would have said so.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Ananais thought he was lying to men Jari.

Here read the following statement.

"You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

This is what Ananias had misunderstood.

Jari, you asked me how I arrived at the conclusion
that Ananias was a believer.

It is not a conclusion, this is the flow of the passages in Acts 5.

It does not say Ananias was an unbeliever.

It says he was among the believers.

I am not interrupting the passages and inserting
an alternative meaning.

There is a parallel to this episode in Acts, here read
the following.

1 Corinthians 11

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy
manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself,
not discerning the Lord’s body.

30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

This is exactly what happened to Ananias Jari.
Ananias thought he could lie to men and maintain
some of his assets. A very common practice in the
modern church.

God refines us Jari, we are judged now Jari, not later.
Ananias was judged immediately so that Ananias will
not be condemned with the world.

Acts 5, does not say Ananias was an unbeliever, if he
was it would have said so.

David The goofy thing about what Annanias did is that he could have given only a part of the money from the sale. It was his to do with as he saw fit.