Angels

[brakelite]

There is no need to mince words or try to find some other interpretation that fits your desired outcome of the text. Evil is necessary to create adversity and calamity, there is neither without it. God creates evil. Why did you ignore that fact I mentioned about evil having already existed when the creation was 'very good'? Creation without evil is 'perfect' not 'very good'. And that is what God is in the process of doing, perfecting his creation.

Hello Gary. Your contributions to this forum have often been very good, not perfect, but very good. Some I have not agreed with at all, but have kept my peace. On this however I cannot stay silent.
The holy scriptures echo from Genesis to Revelation a changeless, constant, persistent theme. The God we worship is holy. Perfectly holy, in all His thinking, His actions, His motives, His words. It is utterly repugnant I feel to suggest that it is even possible for God to create evil, to be the source of anything that is even remotely suggestive of sin, wickedness, or evil. Another explanation must be found to avoid painting a picture or caricature of God that places Him in a light tainted with darkness.
And that other explanation can be found in the full context of the text and giving consideration to the parallelism of Hebrew prose.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
What God is teaching us here is His sovereign power to guide the affairs of men and nations in order to bring about His purposes. He can prosper nations as equally efficiently as He can bring calamity upon individuals, and vice versa. This text does in no way prove that God is the source or author of all evil, certainly not moral evil and sin. Evil came into this world by permission through the wilful disobedience of man, though He restrains it and uses it for His purposes. Revelation informs us that there are four angels holding back the four winds of strife that are to soon come upon this world. There is an evil about to fall upon this planet the likes of which have never before been experienced. This evil does not come from God, it will come from Satan and his angels, but it comes by the express permission of God because all other avenues have been exhausted to bring man to repentance. As the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the earth, so evil angels have their opportunity to gain the ascendency over those who have rejected the gospel and spurned the offers of mercy and grace from a loving and holy God. The calamities that are to come man brings upon himself through his own hard-heartedness and refusal to repent. Just as Pharaoh refused to humble himself and let Israel go, so this world will refuse to huimble itself and will oppose God's people in the last days in the great battle of Armageddon.

 

[gdemoss]

Hello Gary. Your contributions to this forum have often been very good, not perfect, but very good. Some I have not agreed with at all, but have kept my peace. On this however I cannot stay silent.
The holy scriptures echo from Genesis to Revelation a changeless, constant, persistent theme. The God we worship is holy. Perfectly holy, in all His thinking, His actions, His motives, His words. It is utterly repugnant I feel to suggest that it is even possible for God to create evil, to be the source of anything that is even remotely suggestive of sin, wickedness, or evil. Another explanation must be found to avoid painting a picture or caricature of God that places Him in a light tainted with darkness.
And that other explanation can be found in the full context of the text and giving consideration to the parallelism of Hebrew prose.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
What God is teaching us here is His sovereign power to guide the affairs of men and nations in order to bring about His purposes. He can prosper nations as equally efficiently as He can bring calamity upon individuals, and vice versa. This text does in no way prove that God is the source or author of all evil, certainly not moral evil and sin. Evil came into this world by permission through the wilful disobedience of man, though He restrains it and uses it for His purposes. Revelation informs us that there are four angels holding back the four winds of strife that are to soon come upon this world. There is an evil about to fall upon this planet the likes of which have never before been experienced. This evil does not come from God, it will come from Satan and his angels, but it comes by the express permission of God because all other avenues have been exhausted to bring man to repentance. As the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the earth, so evil angels have their opportunity to gain the ascendency over those who have rejected the gospel and spurned the offers of mercy and grace from a loving and holy God. The calamities that are to come man brings upon himself through his own hard-heartedness and refusal to repent. Just as Pharaoh refused to humble himself and let Israel go, so this world will refuse to huimble itself and will oppose God's people in the last days in the great battle of Armageddon.

Hi brakelight, thanks for offering up your thoughts on the matter. I have always sided with the logic that you have used here until recently when things have been being pointed out to me. How do you deal with the fact that their was a knowledge of good and evil upon the completion of creation? You simply cannot have knowledge of something that doesn't exist. Please help me understand how you see this.

In Christ

Gary

 

[David777]

Hello Brakelite.

I am not surprised that you find the idea of God
creating evil itself. So do I, God is Holy, His creations are
good. It is only the rejection of God that creates evil.

To create a doctrine necessitates multiple scriptures.

If a person wants to tar Jesus with a dirty brush, then
produce the scriptures. Please don't reduce it to one word
with a variety of possibilities in translation.

This beggars belief!

I am already over this nonsense, farewell.

 

[gdemoss]

If a person wants to tar Jesus with a dirty brush, then
produce the scriptures. Please don't reduce it to one word
with a variety of possibilities in translation.

What does this have to do with Jesus?

 

[Brother Mike]

Good, and Evil.

brakelite

Evil came into this world by permission through the wilful disobedience of man, though He restrains it and uses it for His purposes.

There is nothing in the scripture that says evil came into this World by God's permission.

God "Found" iniquity in the devil. I am sure he did not recognize it right away, never having experienced it. Hence he "Found it." God is perfect love, and by nature would have no knowledge of those things.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

What God created was not evil. He never created evil, what he created became evil. God found evil in this Angel he made.

God gave the earth to man. He gave everything to his man Adam. Adam obeyed Satan.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

When Adam obeyed Satan, Adam by default made Satan his god. This is how Satan became the god of this world. All that God had given Adam was now in possession of a mad evil spirit. A disobedient Angel.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


The law of sin and death came upon this earth, praise the Lord that God had a plan to be free from it. In that law of sin and death is sickness, poverty, early death and everything listed under the curse of the law. (Deut 28) Jesus redeemed us from that curse that Adam brought upon the earth. (Gal 3:13)

God is the author of all things, and all things were made by him and created for him. He is not the author of evil though, and it only takes getting yourself under the hand of the devil to have bad things happen to you. Satan does not need God's help, and the Kingdoms are not divided.

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Miss Elly]

How do you know God created evil? Perhaps it always was. Pride was FOUND in the heart of lucifier. It doesn't sound like God created that evil to me. Satan had a free will of his own and he chose to be rebellious against God. What kind of people would we be if we didn't have a choice? Robots? Animals? After satan is cast into hell, there won't be any more evil and we will not be tempted anymore (the children of God).

 

[Brother Mike]

God created evil, we think not.

God never planed for evil, never considered evil. Satan is the author of it, and why it's his very nature and will not receive forgiveness.

Man took on that nature.

Miss Elly

After satan is cast into hell, there won't be any more evil and we will not be tempted anymore (the children of God)

Scripture says, when we are tempted we are drawn away and enticed by the lust of our OWN flesh.

Satan only has the ability to push buttons that are already there, and amplify that pulling on our flesh. He also has the ability to put thoughts in our minds and make those twisted thoughts seem reasonable to us if we allow him to do so.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[David777]

Also.

God's plans are always based on love.

God always acts through love.

Jesus Christ is love.

No darkness, sin, can originate in God.

God is Holy, Spiritual, Purity.

Evil only exists in opposition to God and that is a temporary state.

God cannot create that which is evil.

How could pure love conceive evil, it cannot.

Where there is light there is no darkness.

Darkness is the absence of light.

 

[gdemoss]

What kind of people would we be if we didn't have a choice?

We have 2 choices. We can do things our way. Or we can do things Gods way. One leads to life and the other to death. Free will realized.

Freedom to choose between what good we will do within the boundaries of Gods will is the gift of God to his creation. What it means to be truly free.

There is nothing that God did not know was going to happen that he didn't already plan for including evil. If someone had a loaded gun and decided to give it to a five year old that was playing cops and robbers with his 4 year old brother in their bedroom and the 4 year old ended up dead, most people would want to execute that person on the spot considering that he should have known better. With God, he knew all about what would happen. He knew about all of the wars, torcher and fighting. He new about all of the rapes and incest. God knew of it all and he still set it all in motion by creating everything. It is hard for me to fathom but it was the right thing to do, since the righteous God of the universe did it. He knew exactly how he would use evil to punish evil by bringing them up against each other. I just try to remember that he is God and his ways are truly righteous. Even when he sends men out to destroy whole cities and kill women and babies. I think we need to re-evaluate what evil is.

Gary

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

God never planed for evil, never considered evil. Satan is the author of it, and why it's his very nature and will not receive forgiveness.

Do you suppose God was surprised by this?
Are you saying Satan duped God?
That is frightening,how do we know he won't thwart God again?
God made everything perfect and Satan came in and messed it all up?

I believe you are implying that God never really had total control of his creation.
Also did God make messengers before there was anyone to send a message to?
Who were they messaging?

Romans 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Who's will frustrated creation?
Can you explain what "not by it's own will" means?

 

[Miss Elly]

In reply to "ThisCrossHurts".

You make no sense whatsoever. God does not have control over our will, why would he have control over satan's? But God can and will destroy the workers of inquity. You know, its enough that we work out our own salvation through Jesus Christ without all of the sarcasm. You are not making yourself look too bright and you are completely misconstruing everything I said. It's laughable.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

You are not making yourself look too bright and you are completely misconstruing everything I said.

I was responding to Brothermike's post.I actually didn't even see yours.

Are you saying God did not know this would happen?

What is your interpretation of these verses.
Romans 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

 

[lilyR]

Hi, First of all I would like to point out that God did not create sin at all, but he created his creatures. Sin first started in the heart of Lucifer.
Angels, just like every mankind where created with free will, the power to choose for or against something.They have same conditions as us regarding eternal life.The rebellious one Lucifer, one of the angles chose to rebel against God..

Ezekiel 28:12-19
" Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of tyre and say to him thus says the lord God. you were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
15 You were blameless in the ways from the day you were created till unrighteousness was found in you.
16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst and sinned. So I cast a profane thing from the mountain of God and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub from the midst of stones of fire.
17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty, you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground: I exposes you before kings to feast their eyes on you"

Lucifer/Satan had the choice to stay loyal to God but his own will rebelled against God. It is same will we have been given to choose to change our behaviour to accept him or not. God was not to blame for his downfall. What made Angels rebel and act the way they did was PRIDE...he wanted to be above God and to overthrow God's throne but he was defeated.

Revelations 12:7-9
" Then war broke out in heavenMichael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down - that ancient serpent called the devil or Satan who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to earth and his angels with him"

When God created Adam, Satan wanted to prove he had the power by tempting Adam & evil with the same fruit that God had forbidden them to eat and when they did everything went downhill from there. Again, Adam had no sin when God created him until they ate that forbidden fruit. Even

I do believe all this happened for a purpose, God wanted to show his character, to show he is a righteous and loving God. Then he sent Jesus to die for sin of mankind and he paid the price.God knew all this would happen, before he even created everything. Without both Good and evil, we wouldn't have that freedom of choice to get saved and he wouldn't have expressed his love that he has for us. He wanted is to see character towards mankind. He let everyone choose whether to accept his remedy or not.

 

[Brother Mike]

The Doctrines......

ThisCrossHurts:

Do you suppose God was surprised by this?
Are you saying Satan duped God?
That is frightening,how do we know he won't thwart God again?
God made everything perfect and Satan came in and messed it all up?

Satan never duped or thwarted God, and certainly does not win.
There is more than enough scripture to prove that God never intended for man to fall, God never planed for man to rebel against him. God never planed for one of his Angels to go bad.

When God made things, it was Good, Not posting lots of scriptures at this point.

Miss Elly

You are not making yourself look too bright and you are completely misconstruing everything I said. It's laughable.

Keep in mind that misconstruing things can simply be a lack of understanding, greater understanding, or different belief system. Thiscrosshurts is only posting what they believe and know to be true, and is most likely surprised just as we are that at least "I" myself just don't get it. In other words, lets be all smiles and nice.

God knew all this would happen, before he even created everything. Without both Good and evil, we wouldn't have that freedom of choice to get saved and he wouldn't have expressed his love that he has for us. He wanted is to see character towards mankind. He let everyone choose whether to accept his remedy or not.

Do you have a scripture that God was happy with his creation of man, and had this outcome as his plan the whole time?

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Do you realize that because of Adam's sin, Satan had a grip on this planet so strong, God had to destroy mankind except for Noah and his family, even later many turned to false god's sacrificing and eating their own children? Even so, Satan is still the god of this world until death be completely done away with.

Was that really God's master plan? To knowingly cause all this pain and destruction so we can learn to trust and accept him?

If God is love, does love plan those types of things?

Jesus is Lord.

 

[gdemoss]

God does not have control over our will

Oh no? God can't make you do anything against your will? God doesn't know what to allow around you to cause you to move in a certain direction? Or even to say certain words? You underestimate the sovereignty of God. You have the choice to be good or evil, God moves the pieces around as he sees fit. He works 'all' things to the council of his own will according to the book of Ephesians.

Misunderstanding this truth will cause you much agony.

Peace in Christ,

Gary

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Oh no? God can't make you do anything against your will? God doesn't know what to allow around you to cause you to move in a certain direction? Or even to say certain words? You underestimate the sovereignty of God. You have the choice to be good or evil, God moves the pieces around as he sees fit. He works 'all' things to the council of his own will according to the book of Ephesians.

Misunderstanding this truth will cause you much agony.

Peace in Christ,

Gary

Gary. Are you saying that GOD will take you and use you like a marionette if HE so chooses? Come on Help an old man understand what you are saying.

Actually too, if you read all of the bible GOD is NOT in control in the Earth. We are. GOD has given us dominion in the Earth. If you wonder why some polititians get elected president and GOD allows it...look no further than at us Christians.
Oops!! Now I'm getting into politics...."Sorry." He said sheepishly.

 

[gdemoss]

Gary. Are you saying that GOD will take you and use you like a marionette if HE so chooses? Come on Help an old man understand what you are saying.

Actually too, if you read all of the bible GOD is NOT in control in the Earth. We are. GOD has given us dominion in the Earth. If you wonder why some polititians get elected president and GOD allows it...look no further than at us Christians.
Oops!! Now I'm getting into politics...."Sorry." He said sheepishly.

Yes, I am saying that God will put you where he wants to, when he wants to and their is nothing you can do about it. The bible is full of examples of his doing this. God allows you certain freedom to choose certain things but you couldn't harm a hair on anothers head lest he allowed it.

There has never been a leader of a nation that God has not put in place. The only effect we can have on who will govern us is by our moral submission to God. The US is getting what God is giving them even though they think they vote people into office. Even the rule of the Antichrist over the world is Gods doing. Just as he gave Saul to Israel he gives Antichrist to the world, just before he crushes him and them.

Peace in Christ, may God move you and show you that he is doing it as he has me. It is awesome to watch God work in this manner.

Gary

 

[lilyR]

Brother Mike: In Response to your questions.

Genesis 1: 27,
"So God created man in his own image,In the image of God he created him; male and female he created him"

We are God's creation, created in his very own image.How then could he not have liked something similar to his own?If you read 2 Corinthians 4:4, refers to Jesus having the "Image of God", like man,mankind.How could he not have liked that...he is the one who created us.

Genesis 1:1-31, talks about all that God created in the first week.verse 31 says " It was all good". Problems with Adam & evil started in Genesis 3, bare in mind there was already the fallen Angel lucifer,who tempted them.I do agree adam brought sin to genetations and to mankind, Which I mentioned in second last paragragh above,that it went downhill/wrong from that moment.I also believe Evilness was already there before Adam sinned. why else would God warn Adam not to eat the forbidden fruit or they would die?

Yes Satan is ruling the world but despite of the sin Adam & Evil did, we are given a second chance. That's why he paid the penalty for all our sins to acknowledge him so be are saved.

Was that really God's master plan? To knowingly cause all this pain and destruction so we can learn to trust and accept him?

If God is love, does love plan those types of things?

Jesus is Lord.[/QUOTE]

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Yes, I am saying that God will put you where he wants to, when he wants to and their is nothing you can do about it. The bible is full of examples of his doing this. God allows you certain freedom to choose certain things but you couldn't harm a hair on anothers head lest he allowed it.

There has never been a leader of a nation that God has not put in place. The only effect we can have on who will govern us is by our moral submission to God. The US is getting what God is giving them even though they think they vote people into office. Even the rule of the Antichrist over the world is Gods doing. Just as he gave Saul to Israel he gives Antichrist to the world, just before he crushes him and them.

Peace in Christ, may God move you and show you that he is doing it as he has me. It is awesome to watch God work in this manner.

Gary

Hmmmmmm Uh huh. I'd say you have that more than a little bit confused.

I don't know how many Obamaites we have here but.... Do you think that man would have been elected president if Christians had gotten down on their knees and asked GOD for wisdom before they voted? Now all they do is wail and whine about the job he isn't doing. If they had prayed first GODs man would have gotten in.

 

[David777]

Nice argument.

Good argument lilyR.

I thought this was a good question:

Was that really God's master plan? To knowingly cause all this pain and destruction so we can learn to trust and accept him?