Forgiveness and repentance.

[agua]

I believe this is what was being done through Peter and Stephen by the Holy Spirit which filled them and flowed off of their tongues. When I look at Stephens defense he gave, I see him show how the spirit in the past has worked though people to convict others of sin. Nowhere in scripture do I find that he does it outside of this arena. Can you find an instance?

Gary

No I can't find any instance of the HS working from within a sinner/unbeliever.


However we do see the HS working autonomously/within Christ and believers.



Luk 4:1 NKJV Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,



Luk 12:11-12 NKJV "Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. (12) For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."



If the HS works through others to bring people to repentance I wonder if He ever works on the target autonomously.


Interesting.

 

[gdemoss]

If the HS works through others to bring people to repentance I wonder if He ever works on the target autonomously.


Interesting.

Here is what I have to offer. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. This is why the Holy Spirit may be grieved. He is your comforter yet you do not have to allow him access through you to the other party. You can choose to use 'your' words and mess it all up. The Holy Spirit must be submitted to in order for him to function through the believer. This is why one must 'receive' the spirit as well as 'ask' the Father for him, in order for him to give him to you more abundantly. There are spirits around us all the time. We choose to 'receive' them or not. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Ask the Father and he will give you the Holy Spirit. This world was put in subjection unto the angels. The next will not. We will judge angels then. We wrestle not with flesh and blood but principalities and powers and rulers of darkness.

The spirit is constantly moving me in new directions and teaching me all day long as I work or do what not. There is a huge battle for me going on and has been for the last year. I am beginning to understand how to go to our Father through Christ for everything that I need to get clarity. As you know, I have not had complete victory over influence but I am waxing stronger in spirit.

Peace and Love brother,

Gary

 

[agua]

You don't see 'Imputation of sin which implies accountability' as unforgiven when those who have it imputed unto them are cast into hell? Or vice versa with imputed righteousness?

You will need to reword this please I don't think I understand your gist.

I am trying to understand your thinking. Are you suggesting ignorant sins are forgiven without repentance and known sins are forgiven with repentance, or that repentance isn't required at all?

 

[gdemoss]

You will need to reword this please I don't think I understand your gist.

I am trying to understand your thinking. Are you suggesting ignorant sins are forgiven without repentance and known sins are forgiven with repentance, or that repentance isn't required at all?

Yes, ignorant sins are forgiven without 'direct' repentance of them. The forgiveness is given based upon the 'repentance' or turning toward God as Father being his son. All of it ties into my understanding of true salvation which is the fallen man hearing the voice of God and believing him and subsequently turning to him and not turning back away to reject him yet again. Following the voice of truth all the way home. I bring this up only because salvation and forgiveness are directly tied into salvation. I don't mean to side track into a discussion of salvation but felt it necessary to explain where my line of reasoning is coming from.

Gary

P.S. I like this form of studying together in real time through the forum.

 

[agua]

Oky doky thanks for clearing that up.

I can see how we will have many unknown sins revealed to us come meeting the Lord and our repentance and acceptance of the Gospel will spare us.( by God's grace of course) I also believe we will feel compunction/repentance at this time.

I would appreciate your opinion on Luke 17: 3,4 now.


Luk 17:3-4 NKJV Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. (4) And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."


If a brother sins against us should we forgive him if he is unrepentant, and if not/so why?

 

[gdemoss]

I would appreciate your opinion on Luke 17: 3,4 now.

Begin in chapter 16 for the context. Jesus is teaching on money and covetousness and there were Pharisees who were spying in on the discussion as always. They began to ridicule him. So he went about by the Holy Spirit to tell them they are an abomination to God. He explained that the time of the law and the prophets ruling was over now that the kingdom is preached with him being king. He put them in there place.

Henceforth why he told the story about the rich man and Lazarus at this time. Notice the story is basically about a rich Pharisee who looks with contempt upon the poor as he himself trusts in his riches. Mistaking gain for godliness. Which was commonplace in the era. Even the disciples all marveled when Jesus said rich men ain't gonna make it without Gods help. Within this story you see the correlation between the law and the prophets and the king of the kingdom when he says, 'they have Moses and the Prophets let him here them', Of course after the rich man is in Hell he knew that he himself listened not to them so he asks that Abraham send Lazarus. "They will not believe even if one is sent from the dead" who is Christ our King. Jesus is always the same, he resists the proud and gives grace unto the humble. This story is to tell the Pharisees they won't repent even after his Resurrection from the dead.

Then he turned to his disciples and said...Sin will happen. But be careful to see what is being said here. He is saying some will be forgiven and some will not. Pharisees no forgiveness. But unto them "take heed unto yourselves" or paraphrased "make sure your not one of them by doing what I say next".

See this clearly: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Your brother has trespassed against you. For HIS sake that trespassed rebuke him. Since this is a face to face encounter, repentance is required for reconciliation between the two. There can be no reconciliation between two if both aren't agreed when both are enlightened as to the problem. Confession must be made.

As you can see, the next thing the disciples ask for is more 'faith' which allows them to do the 'works of faith' such as forgiving a constantly erring brother. Finally he finishes the thought by showing them that when they actually fulfill the role as servants that they are they should humbly admit that turning their brother to repentance and converting him back to a right relationship with them and God was merely there duty to do and they are unprofitable servants.

If a brother sins against us should we forgive him if he is unrepentant, and if not/so why?

I believe this was answered in the exegesis of the text above. If you need more clarity go to Matthew 18 and see why you must forgive everyone their trespasses or not be forgiven by the Father.

What love our marvelous Lord has bestowed upon us that we might bestow it upon others! Praise, Honor and Glory to the Lamb!!!

Gary

 

[agua]

The biblical message of repentance/forgiveness is shown clearly in scripture. Jesus sought to bring sinners to repentance.

Mar_1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Joh_8:11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."



This concept was also applied within the Church.



Mat 18:15-17 NKJV "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. (16) But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY WORD MAY BE ESTABLISHED.' (17) And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.




This is also seen in the teachings from Paul concerning discipline within the Body.



1Co 5:9-13 NKJV I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. (10) Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. (11) But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. (12) For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? (13) But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "PUT AWAY FROM YOURSELVES THE EVIL PERSON."



Not performing this disciplinary action causes the group of believers to be approvers of the wrong doing.


1Co 5:1-2 NKJV It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father's wife! (2) And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.



It's a very important concept bringing a brother to repentance and one which few Churches today practice in detriment to the Body.

Why?


1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?


and



2Co_7:10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.



Later Paul tells us to reaffirm love for a brother who has been punished.


2Co 2:6-8 NKJV This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, (7) so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. (8) Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him.



All Church discipline is of course based upon the godly counsel of the scriptures and elders/pastors and done out of love for the good of the individual and the Body.

 

[gdemoss]

Agua, Do we consider the paralitic who was let down through the roof and healed by Christ and his sins forgiven to have been repentant? It was the faith of the four who bore him that healed him.

I came to Christ and my wife was a mess still. I endured her grief for about 6 weeks. I was reading the bible daily and came across this scripture. I knew I had found the answer! I did not need to go to her and get her to go to Christ. I went immediately through my work place gathering up Christians for the bearing of the paralytic. Four of us stood around a picnic table and took turns praying over her as we lowered her through the roof so to speak. Within 48 hours she broke down and came to Christ...I still weep when I tell this story. It was so beautiful. Just two days before she was asking me why her husband was abducted and replaced by a preacher. Now she was on her knees confessing that Jesus is Lord. Yes, I know, my story she did repent but what about our paralytic?

Also what shall we say of James who tells the twelve tribes scattered abroad to bring the sick to the elders who shall anoint him with oil and pray over him. It says that their intercessory prayer will save him and that if he has committed any sins they will be forgiven him. Where is his repentance?

I say all of this to bring up one point. I have learned that I cannot just look at a verse here or a verse there and think that I will be able to nail down doctrine that covers all things. I must submit to and know the spirit who wrote the bible to understand the spirit of the whole council of God. To be able to understand things like how David is a lawbreaker who doesn't keep the Sabbath and Jesus calls him innocent. They are mysteries that are revealed by God through his spirit to whom he will for the benefit of others. The answer is that the law was made for the unrighteous and the Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath. In this case the Lord has declared David righteous and says the law is not applicable in this case because he desires mercy and not sacrifice.

So much to learn about the righteous judgment of the Lord that we may be like him.

Every knee shall bow.....

Gary

 

[agua]

Repentance is a clear concept taught in scripture and without a good understanding of this the Church becomes sullied. The same concept was used by God to keep Israel from straying into worldly ways.


This simple concept still applies today.


Mar_2:17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Jesus asked for forgiveness precisely because those who needed it where to ignorant to even know they needed it.
From all outward appearances they knew exactly what they were doing and they certainly were not repentant.
Jesus must have already forgiven them and was pleading for mercy on their behalf.

It seems to me love is the requirement to forgive and is entirely at the discretion of the forgiver.
Do we suppose the Father answered his prayer?

 

[jiggyfly]

Jesus reconciled sinners to God by being the propitiatory/atoning sacrifice. This means He took the punishment upon himself to appease God's justice and shows sacrificial love and mercy but doesn't address repentance. We are also called to love our enemies/attackers regardless of repentance.


God loves the world but does He forgive sinners before repentance ?



Act 26:17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
Act 26:18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

That's not what the scripture I quoted says you may want to read it again.

 

[agua]

Jesus asked for forgiveness precisely because those who needed it where to ignorant to even know they needed it.
From all outward appearances they knew exactly what they were doing and they certainly were not repentant.
Jesus must have already forgiven them and was pleading for mercy on their behalf.

It seems to me love is the requirement to forgive and is entirely at the discretion of the forgiver.
Do we suppose the Father answered his prayer?

True Tch Jesus did ask for their forgiveness. If they didn't repent and believe, and end up in the lake of fire, does this mean they were forgiven ? Or do we assume they became believers.

 

[agua]

That's not what the scripture I quoted says you may want to read it again.

Do you believe everyone will be saved or only those who repent and believe/have faith?

You posted

Rom 5:6-11 NKJV For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. (8) But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (10) For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (11) And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


Explain how this addresses repentance and forgiveness.

 

[Kit Carson]

I do not think it possible to accept Christ and be saved without repentance. But that is between myself and Christ. Christ and his teachings and knowledge convict me that even as a good a man as I can strive to be I am still a sinner. So next to Christ I am convicted that I need to repent.

Just using myself as an example. We become aware, and we repent and we are saved.

If I do something that is wrong and it effects another, I ask for forgiveness and I am forgiven by Christ. He also teaches me not to do that again. If that person that is effected forgives me or not is not a factor, but it is a factor to that person and will become apparent when that person also is convicted of their sin as we all are.

Christ also holds back the wrath of God, he begs for all to be saved. He is unwilling for any to perish. So he begs for us, for the full measure of Gods wrath to be tempered and for more time to be granted.

There are also two resurrections, one for the believer and one for the condemnation. I need to study that more, but I get the hint that those who died before God revealed himself to us, will get a chance. But that is another subject and I need to study it. Before putting foot in mouth.

Kit

 

[gdemoss]

I do not think it possible to accept Christ and be saved without repentance. But that is between myself and Christ. Christ and his teachings and knowledge convict me that even as a good a man as I can strive to be I am still a sinner. So next to Christ I am convicted that I need to repent.

Just using myself as an example. We become aware, and we repent and we are saved.

If I do something that is wrong and it effects another, I ask for forgiveness and I am forgiven by Christ. He also teaches me not to do that again. If that person that is effected forgives me or not is not a factor, but it is a factor to that person and will become apparent when that person also is convicted of their sin as we all are.

Christ also holds back the wrath of God, he begs for all to be saved. He is unwilling for any to perish. So he begs for us, for the full measure of Gods wrath to be tempered and for more time to be granted.

There are also two resurrections, one for the believer and one for the condemnation. I need to study that more, but I get the hint that those who died before God revealed himself to us, will get a chance. But that is another subject and I need to study it. Before putting foot in mouth.

Kit

Thank you for sharing. Keep studying. Ask yourself, if there be just two Resurrections, one for the just and the other for the unjust then why does Jesus speak of judging the sheep at the same time he judges the goats? I pray God give humility before all or our studies that we may learn from him unobstructed.

Peace to You.

Gary

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

If they didn't repent and believe, and end up in the lake of fire, does this mean they were forgiven ?

I don't know and I'm starting to feel that I'm not supposed to know.
I have to figure out what to do with scripture like this.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

God is not judging us,Jesus says he judges no man.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
It is the word that he spoke that will judge us.So I do see his word as trumping all other concepts.
I feel the the word that he spoke was a word of reconciliation.
It's a reconciliation attitude.Some people see a word of Judgement and destruction.

Why do I believe it is about reconciliation?
I think Kit explains it well:

Christ also holds back the wrath of God, he begs for all to be saved. He is unwilling for any to perish. So he begs for us, for the full measure of Gods wrath to be tempered and for more time to be granted.

Yes,yes and yes.I don't beg forgivness for evil men I beg forgiveness for all men including those who think they are evil and seem to be enjoying it.They are really just ignorant to the spirit of life and love.
If some are going into the fire it will not be by my mouth or curse.When Jesus returns I want to be found enforcing the Fathers will that none should perish.Not pointing out fault like an accuser.

 

[jiggyfly]

Do you believe everyone will be saved or only those who repent and believe/have faith?

You posted

Rom 5:6-11 NKJV For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. (8) But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (10) For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (11) And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


Explain how this addresses repentance and forgiveness.

Does what I believe change what the scriptures say?

 

[agua]

Does what I believe change what the scriptures say?

--> What we believe doesn’t change the meaning of scripture but it does influence our interpretation of it.

Romans 5:6-11 deals with Jesus dying for all men and becoming the atoning sacrifice. This shows how God loves the world/all men but doesn’t address forgiveness and repentance.

To receive forgiveness we must repent and believe/have faith.



Acts 2:38-39 NKJV Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (39) For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."


Repentance is necessary for the remission of sins.


Remission
G859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

 

[agua]

I feel the the word that he spoke was a word of reconciliation.
It's a reconciliation attitude.Some people see a word of Judgement and destruction.

The scriptures give us a good picture of both reconciliation at Calvary and judgement at the White Throne. Both are part of God's ultimate plan.

Yes,yes and yes.I don't beg forgivness for evil men I beg forgiveness for all men including those who think they are evil and seem to be enjoying it.They are really just ignorant to the spirit of life and love.
If some are going into the fire it will not be by my mouth or curse.When Jesus returns I want to be found enforcing the Fathers will that none should perish.Not pointing out fault like an accuser.

We are called to love all men and part of showing love is helping a brother in sin come to godly sorrow and repentance. Not doing this is actually enabling sin/wrong behaviour to continue. God gave us a good representation of discipline and why we need to apply it.


2Co 7:9-10 NKJV Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. (10) For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.


If Jesus did not want us to bring sin to attention why did He teach us the godly method of doing this ?


Mat 18:15-17 NKJV "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. (16) But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY WORD MAY BE ESTABLISHED.' (17) And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

We are called to love all men and part of showing love is helping a brother in sin come to godly sorrow and repentance. Not doing this is actually enabling sin/wrong behavior to continue. God gave us a good representation of discipline and why we need to apply it.

I was not addressing our interaction with others,only my attitude when beseeching God on all men's behalf.I am not going to point out someones faults to God.I am going thank him for his promises to all mankind and as much as possible apply it to individuals I pray for.
Once I have prayed for them it would not be of faith to go around talking about their sin or their faults.

How I would interact with a person would be depend on the situation.

Mat 18:15-17 NKJV "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. (16) But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY WORD MAY BE ESTABLISHED.' (17) And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

This situation covers a brother who has sinned against me.
In order to be my brother and "sin against me" he would have to meet certain criteria.

I must also balance this scripture:
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

This covers unbelievers but does not exclude a brother.