Forgiveness and repentance.

[agua]

Is repentance a pre requisite to forgiveness?

 

[gdemoss]

Is repentance a pre requisite to forgiveness?

Can you find one instance in the bible where forgiveness is mentioned preceding repentance when they are together as it pertains to God and man? I believe it is always before.

Our forgiveness of others isn't conditioned upon repentance of the assailant as we owe a great debt ourselves which was forgiven us. God on the other hand owes no one anything and righteously can demand repentance as a prerequisite to forgiveness. Including demanding us to forgive everyone else as a condition of receiving forgiveness.

God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Gary

 

[agua]

Can you find one instance in the bible where forgiveness is mentioned preceding repentance when they are together as it pertains to God and man? I believe it is always before.

I agree.

Our forgiveness of others isn't conditioned upon repentance of the assailant as we owe a great debt ourselves which was forgiven us. God on the other hand owes no one anything and righteously can demand repentance as a prerequisite to forgiveness. Including demanding us to forgive everyone else as a condition of receiving forgiveness.

God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Gary

God sets the standard for forgiveness and repentance seems necessary before God and man.

Luk 17:3-4 NKJV Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. (4) And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."


Is there any biblical account where forgiveness is given before repentance ?

 

[Peace Seeker]

No, I couldn't find any precedence in the bible where an unrepentant offender was required to be forgiven.

However, the Parable of The Unforgiving Servant reminds us of the magnitude of the debt we owe God for His forgiveness of our sins. So in light of that, there are times when I have forgiven someone that has wronged me, without his asking for forgiveness.

Letting go of a rattlesnake might help the snake, but it benefits us as well.

Also, in Mark 11:24 there is no mention of offender repentance :

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins".

 

[agua]

However, the Parable of The Unforgiving Servant reminds us of the magnitude of the debt we owe God for His forgiveness of our sins. So in light of that, there are times when I have forgiven someone that has wronged me, without his asking for forgiveness.

Repentance doesn't require a person asks forgiveness but is necessarily a change in heart/attitude/actions/direction. I wonder if forgiving someone who isn't repentant is actually helping them. I do see how it makes us sacrificial though.

What do you think?

Also, in Mark 11:24 there is no mention of offender repentance :

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins

Good point. Mark 11:25 doesn't mention repentance but this doesn't necessarily rule it out.

Why is repentance important and should it be necessary ?

 

[jiggyfly]

6 When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners.7 Now, most people would not be willing to die for an upright person, though someone might perhaps be willing to die for a person who is especially good.8 But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.9 And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.10 For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son.11 So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God.
Romans 5:6-11 (NLT)

 

[Peace Seeker]

Repentance doesn't require a person asks forgiveness but is necessarily a change in heart/attitude/actions/direction. I wonder if forgiving someone who isn't repentant is actually helping them. I do see how it makes us sacrificial though. What do you think?

Hi Agua,
One specific person I had in mind while I was writing my thoughts on this subject has changed his heart/attitude/actions/direction in a big way. After I had forgiven him I prayed for him and he is a different person from what he was.

Some people show you by their actions that they are sorry, yet are unable to actually say they are sorry. Not everyone is strong enough to face up to their sins, and if you confront them they might be even less willing to repent. That is how this person was, and I believe that in this case, my forgiving him with no strings attached, allowed him to forgive himself and repent. Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. I don't know if I'm making any sense to you, it's hard to convey thoughts on a screen sometimes.

Anyway, I am convinced that because I forgave him without demanding anything of him, it allowed him to repent in his own way. Every circumstance is unique for all of us, so I am not going to pretend I have all the answers about forgiveness.

The bible is straight forward about repentance being a prerequisite to forgiveness. But then again, Jesus could have allowed the people to stone the woman caught in adultery (which would have been lawful for the people to do), but He didn't have to.

So what I am saying is, yes, we should endeavor to call people on their wrongs done to us, to bring about repentance, for their benefit and ours. But it's possible we don't have to in every case. My forgiving someone has never harmed me, no matter what. It costs me nothing and I gain everything.

I understand what you are getting at about forgiving someone who is unrepentant, that it is not helping him, that he will continue to arrogantly continue his actions because he thinks it is the harmed party's Christian duty to forgive him 7x77 times, etc.

Confronting the offender allows him the chance to consider his actions towards you and to repent. I do get that, and my post was not meaning to imply that I or any Christian should just be a pushover and automatically forgive in all circumstances. There have been many times where I have confronted a wrong against me, I don't just forgive automatically, all the time.

But as I said, there are times when I have felt the need to forgive, if not just for my peace of mind, then for the sacrificial aspect you mentioned. I have been blessed by the Lord to have a forgiving spirit, and I don't mean to sound boastful when I say that.
I have been forgiven MUCH by the Lord, so I try my best to forgive, just because He does and did.

I am glad you started this post because it is something I am always thinking of.

 

[agua]

6 When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners.7 Now, most people would not be willing to die for an upright person, though someone might perhaps be willing to die for a person who is especially good.8 But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.9 And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.10 For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son.11 So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God.
Romans 5:6-11 (NLT)

Jesus reconciled sinners to God by being the propitiatory/atoning sacrifice. This means He took the punishment upon himself to appease God's justice and shows sacrificial love and mercy but doesn't address repentance. We are also called to love our enemies/attackers regardless of repentance.


God loves the world but does He forgive sinners before repentance ?



Act 26:17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
Act 26:18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

 

[agua]

Hi Agua,

Some people show you by their actions that they are sorry, yet are unable to actually say they are sorry. Not everyone is strong enough to face up to their sins, and if you confront them they might be even less willing to repent. That is how this person was, and I believe that in this case, my forgiving him with no strings attached, allowed him to forgive himself and repent. Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. I don't know if I'm making any sense to you, it's hard to convey thoughts on a screen sometimes.

Anyway, I am convinced that because I forgave him without demanding anything of him, it allowed him to repent in his own way. Every circumstance is unique for all of us, so I am not going to pretend I have all the answers about forgiveness.

The bible is straight forward about repentance being a prerequisite to forgiveness. But then again, Jesus could have allowed the people to stone the woman caught in adultery (which would have been lawful for the people to do), but He didn't have to.

So what I am saying is, yes, we should endeavor to call people on their wrongs done to us, to bring about repentance, for their benefit and ours.
But it's possible we don't have to in every case. My forgiving someone has never harmed me, no matter what. It costs me nothing and I gain everything.

We don't need to always point out wrong for a person to come to repentance. We have instructions on discipline inside the Church, to show us the correct way of dealing with wrong doers, but many times people come to repentance without confrontation as you say.

But as I said, there are times when I have felt the need to forgive, if not just for my peace of mind, then for the sacrificial aspect you mentioned. I have been blessed by the Lord to have a forgiving spirit, and I don't mean to sound boastful when I say that.
I have been forgiven MUCH by the Lord, so I try my best to forgive, just because He does and did.

I am glad you started this post because it is something I am always thinking of.

I think it's important to remember that the absence of forgiveness doesn't mean the absence of love. We are called to love our enemies just as God loved us "while we were still sinners"/( apart from Him).

 

[gdemoss]

Is there any biblical account where forgiveness is given before repentance ?

Yes, but it isn't really spoken about with a clear 'proof text'. Understanding the truth behind Heb 10:26, I think can help. The willful sin spoken of there is based upon the knowledge of the action being a sin. Once one has received the knowledge of the truth, not the gospel but the truth that what they are partaking in is sin, they had better stop. But before they knew it was sin, they were unrepentant of it, yet forgiven.

Illustration: Bob became a Christian on Jan 26th, 2009. He spent 2 years studying the Word of God daily and faithfully gathering together with the brethren. He quit drinking, smoking, cussing, beating his wife, gambling, watching pornography and a host of other sinful things almost immediately upon submitting to Christ. After two years of walking with the Lord and growing in his grace Bob became aware that he was stealing from the company in the ways he was spending his time there. He became convicted of his sin and repented.

Bob was forgiven of this sin before he repented of it. But if after Bob was confronted about his sin he choose to continue in 'his sinful ways' he would be subject to Heb 10:26. We may all be ignorant of some sin in our lives if we have not be brought to the fullness of understanding and maturity that is in Christ Jesus. We are forgiven. Lest we become aware and refuse to repent.

Progressive sanctification under grace for the child of God. "Sanctify them in thy truth, thy word is truth" And "If I had not come and spoken to them they would have not had sin, but now they have no cloak for their sin."

My brethren, to whom much is given, much is expected. May we be found of him walking in peace.

Gary

 

[agua]

Illustration: Bob became a Christian on Jan 26th, 2009. He spent 2 years studying the Word of God daily and faithfully gathering together with the brethren. He quit drinking, smoking, cussing, beating his wife, gambling, watching pornography and a host of other sinful things almost immediately upon submitting to Christ. After two years of walking with the Lord and growing in his grace Bob became aware that he was stealing from the company in the ways he was spending his time there. He became convicted of his sin and repented.

Bob was forgiven of this sin before he repented of it.

I can see how Bob wasn't aware of his sin until he grew in Christ but still don't see how this implies this particular sin was forgiven before his repentance. Forgiveness implies deliverance. How could Bob be delivered from a sin until he became aware of it?

I still haven't seen a biblical precedent for forgiveness preceding repentance.

 

[gdemoss]

I can see how Bob wasn't aware of his sin until he grew in Christ but still don't see how this implies this particular sin was forgiven before his repentance. Forgiveness implies deliverance. How could Bob be delivered from a sin until he became aware of it?

I still haven't seen a biblical precedent for forgiveness preceding repentance.

Right! All sins of ignorance are forgiven. Period. Without law sin is not imputed even though there is sin. Once one becomes aware, he is responsible to repent and turn away from the sin or else face judgement.

Gary

 

[agua]

Right! All sins of ignorance are forgiven. Period. Without law sin is not imputed even though there is sin. Once one becomes aware, he is responsible to repent and turn away from the sin or else face judgement.

Gary

Can you show me from scripture this concept.

Imputation means to "attribute". If a sin hasn't been attributed neither can it be forgiven. If sin isn't imputed, or if someone is unaware of their sin, they have yet to be held accountable for it. This still doesn't address repentance.


Impute
G1677

ἐλλογέω
ellogeō
el-log-eh'-o
From G1722 and G3056 (in the sense of account); to reckon in, that is, attribute: - impute, put on account.

 

[gdemoss]

Can you show me from scripture this concept.

Imputation means to "attribute". If a sin hasn't been attributed neither can it be forgiven. If sin isn't imputed, or if someone is unaware of their sin, they have yet to be held accountable for it. This still doesn't address repentance.


Impute
G1677

ἐλλογέω
ellogeō
el-log-eh'-o
From G1722 and G3056 (in the sense of account); to reckon in, that is, attribute: - impute, put on account.

Imputed Sin means second death. Imputed righteousness means eternal life. unforgiveness means second death. Forgiveness means eternal life.

Does it get any more biblical?

 

[Peace Seeker]

We don't need to always point out wrong for a person to come to repentance. We have instructions on discipline inside the Church, to show us the correct way of dealing with wrong doers, but many times people come to repentance without confrontation as you say.

Yes, Matthew 18:15-20 and other scripture on the matter. And yes, the Holy Spirit does convict people of sins leading to repentance, without any help needed from us.

I think it's important to remember that the absence of forgiveness doesn't mean the absence of love. We are called to love our enemies just as God loved us "while we were still sinners"/( apart from Him).

Yes, I'm learning that truth in a stronger way every day. Love conquers evil and the law is summed up in love God with all our being, and love one another. Our enemies need our love as much, if not more than our brethren do.

 

[gdemoss]

And yes, the Holy Spirit does convict people of sins leading to repentance, without any help needed from us.

Hey Peaceseeker, I have been trying to nail this one down but cannot. Where does it show the Holy Spirit acting upon people other than being received by them, without the use of another human being. Maybe I missed something but I can't find it.

Thanks in advance,

Gary

 

[agua]

Imputed Sin means second death. Imputed righteousness means eternal life. unforgiveness means second death. Forgiveness means eternal life.

Does it get any more biblical?

I still have not seen any scripture regarding forgiveness before repentance. Imputation of sin implies accountability and doesn't address forgiveness/repentance.

Can you provide a scripture or specific example in the bible where a person/people was forgiven without repentance ?

 

[agua]

Where does it show the Holy Spirit acting upon people other than being received by them, without the use of another human being. Maybe I missed something but I can't find it.

Thanks in advance,

Gary

Joh 16:7-11 NKJV Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. (8) And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (9) of sin, because they do not believe in Me; (10) of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; (11) of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.


Some suggest the conviction of sin only applies to unbelievers.

 

[gdemoss]

Joh 16:7-11 NKJV Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. (8) And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (9) of sin, because they do not believe in Me; (10) of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; (11) of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.


Some suggest the conviction of sin only applies to unbelievers.

I believe this is what was being done through Peter and Stephen by the Holy Spirit which filled them and flowed off of their tongues. When I look at Stephens defense he gave, I see him show how the spirit in the past has worked though people to convict others of sin. Nowhere in scripture do I find that he does it outside of this arena. Can you find an instance?

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

I still have not seen any scripture regarding forgiveness before repentance. Imputation of sin implies accountability and doesn't address forgiveness/repentance.

Can you provide a scripture or specific example in the bible where a person/people was forgiven without repentance ?

You don't see 'Imputation of sin which implies accountability' as unforgiven when those who have it imputed unto them are cast into hell? Or vice versa with imputed righteousness?

Illustration: Bob never understood that his wrongful use of time at work was stealing. Bob died. Bob came before the throne for judgement with a clear conscience and received eternal life along with the imputed righteousness unto him. God never said a word about the sin in his life that he was ignorant of as he was forgiven without ever repenting of it.

Anything wrong with this?

Gary