The Trinity...Biblical or NOT ???

[Eccl12v13]

I am curious why you would retract your posts if there was another scripture that explains HOW they are one.Your position seems accurate to me so wouldn't you want another scripture to back up that position?

As for the seeing and hearing the Father

Oh,this is getting good.

You are correct...I should have said if there is a scripture that can be found saying they are ALL one in the same, or as RJ put it; As quoted from the thread, "How can Jesus Be God, yet not know things" post # 45;

"...Jesus is the Holy Spirit, God is the Holy Spirt, the Holy Spirit is God and the Holy Spirit is Jesus."

"The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity..."

"Put another way, the three persons of the Trinity are of one being...."

THEN I would retract ALL of what I said and posted!

But finding scriptures stating ANY of the above will NEVER be found!

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[Eccl12v13]

As for the seeing and hearing the Father

Oh,this is getting good.

And let's consider another....

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

But we know that Adam and Eve heard God in the garden....

Gen.3
[9] And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
[10] And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
[11] And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
[12] And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
[13] And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

So.....did Jesus lie? No way. He CANNOT lie!

Or consider this......

John 5
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Did Jesus make a mistake here also?

Because we have the following scriptures that CANNOT be ignored.....

Exd. 24
[9] Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
[10] And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
[11] And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


Above it says that at least 70 people saw the God of Israel.

Do you think maybe Jesus forgot about this meal? Of course not!


So since we know that Jesus cannot lie, nor is he capable of making mistakes...then WHO was the God that Adam and Eve heard in the garden AND who was the God that the 70 elders saw and ate and drank with if, as Jesus tells us, NO MAN has seen or heard God the Father?

It must have been THIS God;

John 1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.

It MUST have been the God that was called the Word, who was also a God, and was with ANOTHER God in the beginning.

And it was this God that was called the WORD that did the following;

1Cor.10
[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

So it was really Jesus, also known as the Word, who, as John tells us, was also a God, that fed the nation of Israel spiritual food and followed them.

Now let's read what the God of the OT said would happen to Him;

Zech.12
[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,….

Well now...the God speaking above on the OT said at some point they would look upon Him that they pierced. And as we know that was also Jesus!

And now let's read of a conversation that Abraham had with the God of the OT, then read who THAT person was that Abraham spoke with;

Gen.18
[24] Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
[25] That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Now let’s find out who it is that will judge “…all the earth…“, and who gave him the authority. Let us go to St. John and read what Jesus has to say on the matter.

St. John 5
[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son;
[26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given unto the Son to have life in himself.
[27] And hath given him authority to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man.

So Jesus, Moses or ALL of those that wrote the bible were NOT lying. ALL of God's words are true.

It was Jesus that was the God of the OT and NOT the one that became known as God the Father.

Because Jesus said that NO MAN has EVER seen or heard God the Father!



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[Thiscrosshurts]

Nice work,thank you.

John 5
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Not any man-except he who is from God.No man at any time has seen God.
A man can see God but not just any man.
The one which is from above,the one who came from God.
The one who is from above is above time.
Time is of the world,it is in a way the god of this world.
You have to be from above to see around time.
The people Jesus was talking to had received the word Jesus spoke.
This qualified them to see the Father in Jesus by that same word and they were all one because they were all that same word now.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus said the Son of man is in heaven while he was standing on the earth.He said no man had ascended-except he that came down from heaven.Which gives me the impression that the ascension had already taken place.From heavens standpoint which is not constrained to linear time it had already happened so he could descend into time and never leave all at the same time.My guess is he descended and ascended many times but only became flesh once.

Peace

 

[agua]

It was Jesus that was the God of the OT and NOT the one that became known as God the Father.

Amen

Because Jesus said that NO MAN has EVER seen or heard God the Father!

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This is the interesting part. We know for certain God's voice has been heard and is the Father's several times in the NT.



Mat_3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Mat_17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!"

Joh 12:28-29 NKJV Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came from heaven, saying, "I have both glorified it and will glorify it again." (29) Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to Him."



We know people definitely have heard the Father's voice and so Jesus mustn't mean His audible voice when addressing the Jews in John 5. Unless He means the particular Jews who were with Him at the time which seems unlikely.



Joh_5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.



It seems likely that Jesus was rebuking the Jews for not believing the Fathers testimony, or what he said. We can compare this with speaking to someone, but because they haven't heeded the words, we say they haven't heard us. This seems the most likely interpretation imo.

 

[RJ]

And let's consider another....

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

But we know that Adam and Eve heard God in the garden....

Gen.3
[9] And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
[10] And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
[11] And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
[12] And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
[13] And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

So.....did Jesus lie? No way. He CANNOT lie!

Or consider this......

John 5
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Did Jesus make a mistake here also?

Because we have the following scriptures that CANNOT be ignored.....

Exd. 24
[9] Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
[10] And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
[11] And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


Above it says that at least 70 people saw the God of Israel.

Do you think maybe Jesus forgot about this meal? Of course not!


So since we know that Jesus cannot lie, nor is he capable of making mistakes...then WHO was the God that Adam and Eve heard in the garden AND who was the God that the 70 elders saw and ate and drank with if, as Jesus tells us, NO MAN has seen or heard God the Father?

It must have been THIS God;

John 1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.

It MUST have been the God that was called the Word, who was also a God, and was with ANOTHER God in the beginning.

And it was this God that was called the WORD that did the following;

1Cor.10
[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

So it was really Jesus, also known as the Word, who, as John tells us, was also a God, that fed the nation of Israel spiritual food and followed them.

Now let's read what the God of the OT said would happen to Him;

Zech.12
[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,….

Well now...the God speaking above on the OT said at some point they would look upon Him that they pierced. And as we know that was also Jesus!

And now let's read of a conversation that Abraham had with the God of the OT, then read who THAT person was that Abraham spoke with;

Gen.18
[24] Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
[25] That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Now let’s find out who it is that will judge “…all the earth…“, and who gave him the authority. Let us go to St. John and read what Jesus has to say on the matter.

St. John 5
[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son;
[26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given unto the Son to have life in himself.
[27] And hath given him authority to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man.

So Jesus, Moses or ALL of those that wrote the bible were NOT lying. ALL of God's words are true.

It was Jesus that was the God of the OT and NOT the one that became known as God the Father.

Because Jesus said that NO MAN has EVER seen or heard God the Father!



.

Because Jesus said that NO MAN has EVER seen or heard God the Father!

Eccl12vs13 could you please give the Chapter and verse for the above point. If you already have, could you please give just it again.

I find that very interesting, especially from Exodus where Moses met God many times on MT. Sinai!

 

[Eccl12v13]

Because Jesus said that NO MAN has EVER seen or heard God the Father!



Eccl12vs13 could you please give the Chapter and verse for the above point. If you already have, could you please give just it again.

I find that very interesting, especially from Exodus where Moses met God many times on MT. Sinai!

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

It was not God the Father that Moses met and spoke with. Moses spoke with the God that will judge the whole earth;

Gen.18
[24] Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
[25] That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Now let’s find out who it is that will judge “…all the earth…“, and who gave him the authority. Let us go to St. John and read what Jesus has to say on the matter.

St. [URL="http://javascript<b></b>:{}"]John 5[/URL]
[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son;
[26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given unto the Son to have life in himself.
[27] And hath given him authority to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man.

It will be God the Son that judges the earth....not God the Father!



.

 

[Eccl12v13]

How about this....let's fit these into man's concept of God and His 'spirits'

Rev.4
[5] And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Rev.5
[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

So tell me....Is it God the Father, God the Son and God the "SEVEN" Spirits? Or is it just ONE Holy Spirit?

Just HOW do these "SEVEN" fit into man's concept of the "trinity"?

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[RJ]

How about this....let's fit these into man's concept of God and His 'spirits'

Rev.4
[5] And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Rev.5
[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

So tell me....Is it God the Father, God the Son and God the "SEVEN" Spirits? Or is it just ONE Holy Spirit?

Just HOW do these "SEVEN" fit into man's concept of the "trinity"?

.

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit doesn't exclude other spirits of God.......after all, one thing you fail to recognize: God is God and he can have anything he wishes!!!

One question ECCL, do you feel or think that the Holy Spirit dwells inside you?.... a yes or no would be nice.

 

[Eccl12v13]

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit doesn't exclude other spirits of God.......after all, one thing you fail to recognize: God is God and he can have anything he wishes!!!

One question ECCL, do you feel or think that the Holy Spirit dwells inside you?.... a yes or no would be nice.

Can't do a yes or no. The mods say I must provide scriptures. So here goes.....

I believe the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth/Holy Ghost/Holy Angel/Comforter dwells in me the ONLY way Jesus tells us He does;

Through His words!

John 6
[53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
[54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Well....we got the answer....but can this be right? How can we eat Jesus flesh and drink His blood so that He dwells is us and we in Him?

[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


And what words does the Holy Spirit bring?

John 16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And what does the scriptures tell us of all that bring the same message?

John 17
[8] For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

So if we have the words of Jesus dwelling in us we have the words of the Father. And that means we have BOTH of their spirits dwelling in us, because Jesus said, "...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Not only do their spirit now dwell in us, we are now ONE with them;

[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


This is the ONLY explanation found in the bible that tells us HOW God's Spirit dewlls in us!


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[Donnie Ducati]

How can a ..."Christian"...claim Christ /or even trust Christ ,and not believe in his Deity ...?... something He Himself claimed and proclaims throughout Scripture. Its like depositing your money in an uninsured bank , or driving a car with no gas gage.

If the "Trinity" is not...then Jesus Christ was not an all sufficient savior and all the prophesies leading up to his birth were false.

His name shall be called Emanual......GOD WITH US.