Are you really saved?

[my_little_pony]

MLP

Father is a title

lets move on to something else.

Well, even with the "call no man on Earth father" issue, we are still talking about what is means to be saved. I said before that this is just an example of what God is looking for, and ultimately salvation comes from God.

The idea is that if we cannot, or will not, take a long hard look at what Jesus told us to do, then what is the point of salvation?

If we can't even call one another by our actual names, how are we ever going to lay our lives down for one another?

 

[JonahofAkron]

Take as long as you need. God willing you will return. Pie sounds good about right now.

Always.

I knew you'd understand.

Ha. True story. We are two peas in a pod.

Thank you.

Any time.

I think I understand your position now. The 'done away' with is being applied to the laws power to kill.

Perfectly simplified. I stink at making things easy. I'm praying for less linguistically challenging language and better imaginative writing.

I am working on my own understanding of the New Covenant. Part of it is establishing the place for the Old Testament writings. I have lots of work ahead of me on this.

As am I and the work will never cease.

Very true, there is no problem with the law except that it cannot bring righteousness. It is weak through the flesh. The problem is sin that dwells within the flesh.

Agreed. The design is not giving us right living.

If I could only get my thoughts crossed to others...the problem is that I have to use words.

Ha. Right there with you.

I am working backwards. I used to see a lot that wasn't in scripture. I am working very hard to be disciplined in this area. 'hermeneutical ' that's one of them $3 words like 'systematic theology' that do nothing but confuse me. The wiser one needs to be to understand the concepts put forth in the bible under any system makes me leery. God chose the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.

Also agreed. This is me apologizing again. I meant no offense.

I am still working on this area and you are helping. Colossians is a letter written to Gentile believers and must be understood that way. I continue to reread the whole book with different questions in mind. If it was to be understood that the gentiles in question were being told not to allow others to judge them for taking part in holydays, the Sabbath or the new moon feast then why would he mention food and drink?

The necessary requirements of living in a pagan community is eating the meat sacrificed to idols. This is why Paul has to talk about it do frequently. I think this is being discussed here.

The 10 Commandments has nothing to do with food and drink. The dietary laws in the OT are not enforce (1 Tim 4:3-5). I can eat and drink anything including alcohol (although I don't choose to). So the argument falls flat.

Nowhere in the Apostolic Writings is there a change in Kosher foods. The very definition of food is only understood by Torah. Nothing deemed unclean is food. Even Peter's vision of the sheet has nothing to do with food-it is about changing Peter's understanding about humanity's role in salvation.

The contrary is more applicable that he is telling these gentile believers not to let others judge them for not partaking or abstaining in one thing or the other. The intriguing thing is that the law is spoken of as a man's covenant. That if it is confirmed it cannot be disanulled (Gal 3:15). This verse also must be considered as something spoken to gentile believers. I have more to meditate on this issue. Thanks for helping me.

I must say that the issue is confused. If Galatians and some of Paul's other writings are written with the intent of proving that legalism is wrong, we cannot take his point to disavow all things 'Old Testament'. For one thing, there is more than one covenant-at the time of Paul, the Bible wasn't completed and we certainly didn't have a demarcation for the separate segments. With that in mind, we have to understand many of the terms that Paul uses without the 21st century attachment of Torah that most have. It ruins our reading of Paul and the Hebrew Scriptures to have that mindset.

I love to help, but understand that your questions and statements truly help me to solidify my understanding of the issue. So much more to learn, but I love what we have going right now.

So the commandments in ordinances abolished by the cross of Christ are those that are man-made? The good works are the 10 commandments? The Mosaic law didn't bring animosity between Jews and others? God's law is perfect. If someone keeps it they make others look bad and receive the reward of persecution. Jesus is the epitome of this. Now of course there were man made traditions/commandments that brought on animosity as well. I don't deny that. Look at the Pharisees. I just think it is too far of a jump to define the good works mentioned in Ephesians as the 10 commandments. Due to an unresolved issue in Colossians spoken of above.

Understandably. I think you captured the essence of this issue well, though.

I see and understand your point. I agree as well, that is if I were looking at it from the perspective of someone who is trying to follow it as part of their religion.

No religion, sir. Relationship.

The way I was looking at it though was from the perspective of the sinner. The law is contrary to him. The law is his enemy since it will minister death to him. See what I mean?

As am I. I believe it to be the only way to make sense of it. I will disagree on the minister of death portion. It does not judge. It cannot. It is inanimate. But by its statutes we are judged. I think there is a huge difference.

Once again, I agree with you. Our sin separates us from God. They are the nail in our coffin. Sin is our mortal enemy. But while we were yet sinners is the way it needs to be seen. The law having been given because of transgressions was enemy of all sinners. Exposing the sin. Justifiably killing us. So I say yes you are correct from a saved persons point of view. Hope this makes sense. It seems clear to me today...heh.

Ha. Agreed. Excellent post.

If the Lord wills anythings possible. But it is always about him. Praise God he gave me my character. As Paul said, "I am what I am by the grace of God". He has blessed you with much the same. Praise God.




We should. Lets make that a new topic/thread "How to define sin?"




True. The Ten were built on 2. (Mt 22:37-40).



I don't think there was ever a period without conflict for the body.



Yes they do.


thank you again. This conversation brought up lots of study tonight. It took 3 hours for me to complete this. Read, read and reread.

Have a blessed night in our Lord.

Gary

This study has been excellent. I will post soon on the new thread. I think the OP is awesome and can't wait to start. Have a marvelous day.

PS-the Whole Law is understood by the two because they are a perfect summation from Messiah. If the Law is paraphrased as 'loving God' and 'loving man', what does that say about the Law?

 

[RJ]

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

And just what is it that we must obey for eternal salvation?

I am sorry and I truly mean no disrespect but,:

You just don't get what I have been trying to convey to you all this time or, you just don't want to!

I have tried my best to explain. What me must do to gain salvation is to be perfect in the eyes of God. Though, all of his commandments ( 100's) are worthy, it is impossible for use to perform them day in and day out perfectly, which is a requirement of God because he tells us that if we break one commandment, we have broken them all!

If salvation is dependent on you, this is not a day to day proposition, you break one, one time in your life and you have broke them all...no eternal salvation.

You asked above: "And just what is it that we must obey for eternal salvation?"
My answer will disturb someone who follows this thread and is tired of me using this same verse but here is your answer:

Ephesians 2
<SUP></SUP>
<SUP>8</SUP> For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— <SUP id=en-NIV1984-29223 class=versenum>9</SUP> not by works, so that no one can boast.

You are saved by this:

You obey God by having faith in his free gift in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The prerequiste for salvation is by grace, through faith and not obeying his commandments.
If the prerequiste for salvation was obeying his commandments first, that would be salvation predicated by yourself and your works; the verse clearly says that is not the way it is because we would have to perfom this task perfectly 24/7 and we can not.

That is the basics why we understand that believers are saved and non-believers are not saved.

After salvation we gladly want to and strive to obey his commandments and this is an indication of one who is a Christian. But, when we fail and fail we will, we are already forgiven. We just pick ourselves up and keep trying to obey. That is why St. Paul says that we are no longer under the curse of the law and all the hundreds of commandments or laws. The sting of eternal death and and the guilt is erased!
Romans 8

Life Through the Spirit

<SUP id=en-NIV1984-28103 class=versenum>1</SUP> Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP>

Our sins are forgiven at the cross; this clears a pathway to God and salvation. It is the resurrection and the indwelling of Christ's resurrected life in us that provides eternal salvation.

 

[Eccl12v13]

which is a requirement of God because he tells us that if we break one commandment, we have broken them all!

You will find no where in God's word that means what you claim!

God's word tells us if we break the commandment of stealing, it is the same as breaking the commandment of lying.

And if we break the commandment of lying, it is the same as breaking the commandment of murder.

Let's read the example James gave us;

James 2
[11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

So instead of going through ALL of the possible combinations James just said the following;

[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

In other words, if you break ANY of God's commandments it is as though you have broken any of the others; NOT that you have actually broken ALL of them.

Now let's look at your statement an see if it makes any sense;

You obey God by having faith in his free gift in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

How do you obey according to you? By having faith in His free gift. But is that ALL one must do for salvation? To simply have FAITH?

And what was the free gift that Jesus gave? His BLOOD! That was the grace that was given.

So do we continue in sin now that we have grace? Do we continue to break God's laws? Let's read what Paul tells us;

Rom.6
[1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Paul tells us NO! We do NOT continue to break God's laws. And if we are not breaking them, we are KEEPING THEM!

God's word NEVER says that grace or faith is ALL that is needed for salvation. As a matter of fact there is a whole LIST of things that are needed for salvation, grace (the blood of Jesus) and faith being just one of many!

Can you provide scriptures that state grace/faith is ALL that is needed for salvation? Of course not, because there are NONE in all of God's word.

Can I provide you scriptures that state it takes MORE than grace/faith for salvation? LOTS!

How are we saved?

By grace; the blood of Jesus.
By Faith. But where does faith come from?

Rom.10
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

And how do we believe?

[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So we need to first hear the word of God. But in order for that to happen we need a preacher. Is that all?

[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

So it cannot be just ANY preacher, the preacher must be sent.

[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So you have to HEAR the word from a preacher that was sent by God. Is that ALL? Once you hear God's word do we stop there and just proceed with faith ONLY?

James 1
[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

James tells us once we HEAR God's words we must DO them. That requires some sort of action, or work. One cannot just have faith without acting upon it. And this brings us all the way back to;

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

To be a doer of God's word one must OBEY God's word.

Here's my short list of what is needed for salvation.

Let me know when you find just ONE verse that states ALL that is needed for salvation is just grace/faith!

Again.....I am NOT saying that grace and faith are not needed for salvation. God's word tells us that grace and faith is not the ONLY thing that is needed.


.




.

 

[RJ]

You will find no where in God's word that means what you claim!

God's word tells us if we break the commandment of stealing, it is the same as breaking the commandment of lying.

And if we break the commandment of lying, it is the same as breaking the commandment of murder.

Let's read the example James gave us;

James 2
[11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

So instead of going through ALL of the possible combinations James just said the following;

[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

In other words, if you break ANY of God's commandments it is as though you have broken any of the others; NOT that you have actually broken ALL of them.

Now let's look at your statement an see if it makes any sense;




How do you obey according to you? By having faith in His free gift. But is that ALL one must do for salvation? To simply have FAITH?

And what was the free gift that Jesus gave? His BLOOD! That was the grace that was given.

So do we continue in sin now that we have grace? Do we continue to break God's laws? Let's read what Paul tells us;

Rom.6
[1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Paul tells us NO! We do NOT continue to break God's laws. And if we are not breaking them, we are KEEPING THEM!

God's word NEVER says that grace or faith is ALL that is needed for salvation. As a matter of fact there is a whole LIST of things that are needed for salvation, grace (the blood of Jesus) and faith being just one of many!

Can you provide scriptures that state grace/faith is ALL that is needed for salvation? Of course not, because there are NONE in all of God's word.

Can I provide you scriptures that state it takes MORE than grace/faith for salvation? LOTS!

How are we saved?

By grace; the blood of Jesus.
By Faith. But where does faith come from?

Rom.10
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

And how do we believe?

[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So we need to first hear the word of God. But in order for that to happen we need a preacher. Is that all?

[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

So it cannot be just ANY preacher, the preacher must be sent.

[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So you have to HEAR the word from a preacher that was sent by God. Is that ALL? Once you hear God's word do we stop there and just proceed with faith ONLY?

James 1
[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

James tells us once we HEAR God's words we must DO them. That requires some sort of action, or work. One cannot just have faith without acting upon it. And this brings us all the way back to;

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

To be a doer of God's word one must OBEY God's word.

Here's my short list of what is needed for salvation.

Let me know when you find just ONE verse that states ALL that is needed for salvation is just grace/faith!

Again.....I am NOT saying that grace and faith are not needed for salvation. God's word tells us that grace and faith is not the ONLY thing that is needed.


.

This is was I said:
Originally Posted by RJ
which is a requirement of God because he tells us that if we break one commandment, we have broken them all!


This was your response:
You will find no where in God's word that means what you claim!
God's word tells us if we break the commandment of stealing, it is the same as breaking the commandment of lying.
And if we break the commandment of lying, it is the same as breaking the commandment of murder.
Let's read the example James gave us;
James 2
[11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
So instead of going through ALL of the possible combinations James just said the following;
[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
In other words, if you break ANY of God's commandments it is as though you have broken any of the others; NOT that you have actually broken ALL of them.


Oh Really!!!
Please, about verse 10 above, please tell me and the rest of the readers of this thread.... what is it that you do not understand about...guilty of all??

Why can't you see that breaking one and therefore is the same as breaking them all....is the same of being guilty of all? The results are the very same!!!

You take the verse and distort it to serve YOUR theology. I would be very careful my friend:

Revelation 22
<SUP>18</SUP> I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-31084 class=versenum>19</SUP> And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

 

[gdemoss]

Also agreed. This is me apologizing again. I meant no offense.

I took none

The necessary requirements of living in a pagan community is eating the meat sacrificed to idols. This is why Paul has to talk about it do frequently. I think this is being discussed here.

It absolutely amazes me to see the different perspectives that can be had. Reminds me of my three year old who hits me out of the blue with her perspective on things. Not that I'm calling you a three year old, mind you. So, it would be let no one in the Pagan community judge you for your participation in the Sabbath, holydays or new moon feasts but not to allow...ummm...Jews..(??)..to judge one for eating and drinking things offered to idols which is a requirement of living in pagan communities? Obviously the pagans wouldn't judge them for it. All of this to be understood coming after Paul saying that Jesus took 'ordinances' and nailed them to his cross which is what the 'therefore' is therefore. You really think that this is the way God meant it to be read?

Nowhere in the Apostolic Writings is there a change in Kosher foods. The very definition of food is only understood by Torah. Nothing deemed unclean is food. Even Peter's vision of the sheet has nothing to do with food-it is about changing Peter's understanding about humanity's role in salvation.

1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Did God really set the standard for eating in the Torah? I'd say he was pretty clear. These blessings were given to Noah and remain in effect for his descendants whom God has not given restrictive commands to. The only people ever to receive a restricted diet were Israel through the law of Moses Lev 11:1-47. Now, as a gentile, Paul has specifically taught that I am not to seek to be under the law. That if I be circumcised then Christ will profit me nothing. By the law for one to become partaker of the Old Covenant he had to be circumcised.

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Here we have a big problem. Scripture tells us that people who command to abstain from meats (eat a Kosher diet according to the Mosaic Law) believe doctrines of devils. Does God expect me to adhere to a Kosher diet as a form of obedience? One must obey Jesus to have eternal life Heb 5:9. No. As a gentile I have never been under the law and will never be under the law. Paul's writing to Timothy is very clear that 'all' Gods creatures are good and 'nothing' to be refused. God had other reasons behind limiting the types of food the Israelites ate. Please, please don't tell me that this somehow means something else.

I must say that the issue is confused. If Galatians and some of Paul's other writings are written with the intent of proving that legalism is wrong, we cannot take his point to disavow all things 'Old Testament'.

Nah, legalism isn't wrong. Trying to bring someone under the Old Covenant law is wrong. We need to specify what law we are under. We are under law to Christ. We are to obey him and receive eternal life. Eternal life is not about following a diet. Nor is it about digging a hole and burying our human waste. Eternal life is about taking on the divine nature and escaping the corruption in the world through lust. It is about letting God be God and being the servant that God made man to be. It is about doing the work that he has set before you with joy. It is about seeing the light and leaving the darkness to be in the light. We are people who have no use for stockpiling things or money but would rather take our surplus and improve the life of someone else. Ones who are not willing that any should perish but plead with them to repent and come under the Lord Jesus Christ. We are people who do everything we do out of love. whether we spank a child, feed the homeless, visit a sick friend, withstand another christian to the face because they are to be blamed...we do it in love. We are under the law of love. God is love. We are the sons of the living God. The righteousness of God which was manifested in Jesus cannot be attained to by following written law. It is attained by picking up our cross, denying our selves and following him.

That said, the 10 commandments and the Mosaic law have a lot to offer. Paul pointed this out to us. Does God take care for oxen? Studying the Old Testament gives us a great deal of insight to the process of the revelation of God unto man. In Genesis we learned of Gods plan for marriage of one man and one woman bonded together for life. Paul also taught how the Israelites were great for understanding what not to do. But Jesus taught us that the law was designed around a stiffnecked people who were given divorce because of the hardness of their hearts.

For one thing, there is more than one covenant-at the time of Paul,

Really? The bible doesn't elude to this, unless I missed something.

the Bible wasn't completed

Not the NT but the OT was. According to Paul the OT alone is able to make one wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

and we certainly didn't have a demarcation for the separate segments. With that in mind, we have to understand many of the terms that Paul uses without the 21st century attachment of Torah that most have. It ruins our reading of Paul and the Hebrew Scriptures to have that mindset.

I'm having difficulty making sense of this. Yeah...I don't get it.

I love to help, but understand that your questions and statements truly help me to solidify my understanding of the issue. So much more to learn, but I love what we have going right now.

mutual

No religion, sir. Relationship.

Both. Religion and Relationship. :wink: See James for the religion part.

As am I. I believe it to be the only way to make sense of it. I will disagree on the minister of death portion. It does not judge. It cannot. It is inanimate. But by its statutes we are judged. I think there is a huge difference.

I didn't call the commandments the ministration of death, God did. 2 Cor 3 Of course you may if you like disagree with him.

This study has been excellent. I will post soon on the new thread. I think the OP is awesome and can't wait to start. Have a marvelous day.

PS-the Whole Law is understood by the two because they are a perfect summation from Messiah. If the Law is paraphrased as 'loving God' and 'loving man', what does that say about the Law?

That it is 'lovely'? :shade:

 

[gdemoss]

Revelation 22
<SUP>18</SUP> I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-31084 class=versenum>19</SUP> And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

So what do you suppose will happen to the English translators? I haven't found a version yet that doesn't add to or take away from the original. Not to mention that there are differing manuscripts in the original languages which all cannot be correct. And does this apply to translations since they are not technically the word of God as God wrote his in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek? Just Questions. Got any answers?

 

[Eccl12v13]

Oh Really!!!
Please, about verse 10 above, please tell me and the rest of the readers of this thread.... what is it that you do not understand about...guilty of all??

Do you think there are those that have never killed or even never thought of killing anyone? Now did they break the law of do not kill? Of course not. So they did NOT break ALL of God's laws. But if they lied, stole or had respect of person it would be as THOUGH they had killed. Why? Because to break any of God's laws is the SAME as breaking any of the others, or being "...guilty of all", as James tells us; NOT that you really broke ALL of them!

How simple is that? Here is another example;

Exod.21
[28] If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
[29] But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

Now this is just one of God's 613 laws that I know for a fact I have never broken. And to be honest I doubt I ever will break.

BUT.....I have lied and I have coveted before!

So even though I do not own an ox, the fact that I broke God's other laws of do not lie and do not covet, would be the same as if I broke God's law of not to allow an ox, that I was warned of, to kill a man or a woman.

Breaking one of God's laws is as THOUGH you broke any of the others.

What James wants us to understand is that there are no big or little sins. To God the sin of allowing an ox, that you have been warned of that pushes and could kill is the SAME as the sin of stealing!

Now I'm sure those reading can understand this!

.

.

 

[RJ]

Do you think there are those that have never killed or even never thought of killing anyone? Now did they break the law of do not kill? Of course not. So they did NOT break ALL of God's laws. But if they lied, stole or had respect of person it would be as THOUGH they had killed. Why? Because to break any of God's laws is the SAME as breaking any of the others, or being "...guilty of all", as James tells us; NOT that you really broke ALL of them!

How simple is that? Here is another example;

Exod.21
[28] If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
[29] But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

Now this is just one of God's 613 laws that I know for a fact I have never broken. And to be honest I doubt I ever will break.

BUT.....I have lied and I have coveted before!

So even though I do not own an ox, the fact that I broke God's other laws of do not lie and do not covet, would be the same as if I broke God's law of not to allow an ox, that I was warned of, to kill a man or a woman.

Breaking one of God's laws is as THOUGH you broke any of the others.

What James wants us to understand is that there are no big or little sins. To God the sin of allowing an ox, that you have been warned of that pushes and could kill is the SAME as the sin of stealing!

Now I'm sure those reading can understand this!

.

You said:
Breaking one of God's laws is as THOUGH you broke any of the others.
O.K., that is exactly what I have been saying all along and that you have disagreed with but here, you essentially say the same thing.

You said:
What James wants us to understand is that there are no big or little sins. To God the sin of allowing an ox, that you have been warned of that pushes and could kill is the SAME as the sin of stealing!
Yes, it is true that any sin big or little as you put it, separates us from God. And, all reasonable Christians agree that to God sin is sin!
But, what you fail to see or fail to want to see,is that this is not what James is talking about.

What James is saying has to do with salvation and the laws. James is saying that in order for the laws to save you, you have to do all of them and do them every time. If you break one law, it is like breaking all of them. In other words, if you break one or all 613 of the laws, the result is the same...you are dead to your sin.

That is why I say that, in order for the laws to bring you eternal salvation you must do them perfectly all the time!

James 2:10

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

<SUP id=en-NIV1984-30288 class=versenum>10</SUP> For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

 

[Eccl12v13]

That is why I say that, in order for the laws to bring you eternal salvation you must do them perfectly all the time!

James 2:10

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

<SUP id=en-NIV1984-30288 class=versenum>10</SUP> For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


[/COLOR]

Yes....YOU say that, but where does GOD say that we MUST keep ALL of His laws perfectly ALL the time?

He does NOT! Not ONCE!

From Gen. to Rev. God tells man to keep His laws, but He NEVER says that we MUST keep them ALL PERFECTLY!

God tells us we must obey him for eternal salvation;

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

But He NEVER says that we MUST obey Him PERFECTLY! Why would He put a condition like that upon His creation when He knows ALL will sin? He knew that from the first commited sin man ever did.

Does He want us to keep His commandments? Of course! Does He ever say we must keep them perfectly? No! Not ONCE!

.

 

[RJ]

Yes....YOU say that, but where does GOD say that we MUST keep ALL of His laws perfectly ALL the time?

He does NOT! Not ONCE!

From Gen. to Rev. God tells man to keep His laws, but He NEVER says that we MUST keep them ALL PERFECTLY!

God tells us we must obey him for eternal salvation;

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

But He NEVER says that we MUST obey Him PERFECTLY! Why would He put a condition like that upon His creation when He knows ALL will sin? He knew that from the first commited sin man ever did.

Does He want us to keep His commandments? Of course! Does He ever say we must keep them perfectly? No! Not ONCE!

.

I have shown you several times where the Bible says the same thing.
Just because it doesn't use YOUR required word, "perfect" does not mean it is not saying the same exact thing!

James 2:10
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-30288 class=versenum>10</SUP> For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

If can't see that this verse is saying to keep the whole law that you must keep each point perfectly, then you just don't want to come to any agreement.

Like I said, you don't want to see and don't even try!

 

[Eccl12v13]

I have shown you several times where the Bible says the same thing.

Just because it doesn't use YOUR required word, "perfect" does not mean it is not saying the same exact thing!

Ok....then show us ANYWHERE in God's word using another word than 'perfect', where God tells man he MUST keep his laws exactly ALL of the time for salvation. Because what James says does NOT say that;

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

Is there anyone else that reads the above verse by James to mean, "ALL of God's laws MUST be kept PERFECTLY ALL of the time for salvation."?

Or was James just telling us that to God there are no big sins or little sins. To God breaking any law is the same as breaking any other law.

.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

Is there anyone else that reads the above verse by James to mean, "ALL of God's laws MUST be kept PERFECTLY ALL of the time for salvation."?

Or was James just telling us that to God there are no big sins or little sins. To God breaking any law is the same as breaking any other law.

Yes and yes,both interpretations are correct and they point to the same answer as many seeming contradictions.
"With man it is impossible but with God all things are possible".
Remember the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
I always thought God did this.

 

[ozell]

Well, even with the "call no man on Earth father" issue, we are still talking about what is means to be saved. I said before that this is just an example of what God is looking for, and ultimately salvation comes from God.

The idea is that if we cannot, or will not, take a long hard look at what Jesus told us to do, then what is the point of salvation?

If we can't even call one another by our actual names, how are we ever going to lay our lives down for one another?

Romans 13:7
Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

you can call people by their actual name , but there is a time when a person have to be called by there title.

it is written

Ecclesiastes 3


<SUP id=en-KJV-17361 class=versenum>1</SUP>To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
<SUP id=en-KJV-17362 class=versenum>2</SUP>A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
<SUP id=en-KJV-17363 class=versenum>3</SUP>A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
<SUP id=en-KJV-17364 class=versenum>4</SUP>A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
<SUP id=en-KJV-17365 class=versenum>5</SUP>A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
<SUP id=en-KJV-17366 class=versenum>6</SUP>A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
<SUP id=en-KJV-17367 class=versenum>7</SUP>A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; <SUP id=en-KJV-17368 class=versenum>8</SUP>A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace


we live in a world where we call and honour people with titles.

 

[ozell]

Matthew 7:12-14

<SUP id=en-KJV-23329 class=versenum>12</SUP>Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.


<SUP id=en-KJV-23330 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>13</SUP>Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: <SUP id=en-KJV-23331 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>14</SUP>Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

broad is the way and wide
people who worhip on the first day of the week are many

narrow is the way and strait
people who worship on the 7th day of the week are few

Jesus kept the sabbath day

Luke 4:16
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+4:15-17&version=KJV
Paul taught the gentiles to keep the sabbath as was his manner

Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 13:41-43

<SUP id=en-KJV-27404 class=versenum>41</SUP>Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.


<SUP id=en-KJV-27405 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>42</SUP>And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. <SUP id=en-KJV-27406 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>43</SUP>Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

 

[ozell]

Matthew 22:13-15

<SUP class=versenum>13</SUP>Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


<SUP id=en-KJV-23887 class=versenum>14</SUP>For many are called, but few are chosen

 

[ozell]

I have shown you several times where the Bible says the same thing.
Just because it doesn't use YOUR required word, "perfect" does not mean it is not saying the same exact thing!

James 2:10
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-30288 class=versenum>10</SUP> For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

If can't see that this verse is saying to keep the whole law that you must keep each point perfectly, then you just don't want to come to any agreement.

Like I said, you don't want to see and don't even try!

long after Jesus death and resurrection the Lord said

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


so now I ask you RJ which commandment do you not keep?

which one do you stumble at?

when you sin do you ask forgiveness?

 

[ozell]

understand faith and the commandments go together so don't be deceived

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+14:11-13&version=KJV

 

[ozell]

which one can't you do?

do you believe in God commandments?

are you the few?
Exodus 20


<SUP id=en-KJV-2053 class=versenum>1</SUP>And God spake all these words, saying,
<SUP id=en-KJV-2054 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>2</SUP>I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2055 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>3</SUP>Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2056 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>4</SUP>Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

<SUP id=en-KJV-2059 class=versenum>7</SUP>Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2061 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP id=en-KJV-2064 class=versenum>12</SUP>Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2065 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>13</SUP>Thou shalt not kill.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2066 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>14</SUP>Thou shalt not commit adultery.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2067 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>15</SUP>Thou shalt not steal.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2068 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>16</SUP>Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. <SUP id=en-KJV-2069 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>17</SUP>Thou shalt not covet

 

[RJ]

long after Jesus death and resurrection the Lord said

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
This has always been my point throughout these many threads. I find amusing and ironic that you quote a verse that I would use to supports my point!

Of course we are not to sin but, it is obvious to Jesus that he understands that we are not capable of not sining. Not that we want to sin but, we are not perfect like he is and we are not capable of no sin.

Jesus acknowledges this to us by saying: " And if any man sin"!
Then he follows up by saying that the Holy Spirit speaks on our behalf when we do mess up.


Isn't God's love and grace a beautiful thing?


so now I ask you RJ which commandment do you not keep?
I strive lead a perfect life but when I don't always, I know this:
Romans 8

Life Through the Spirit

<SUP id=en-NIV1984-28103 class=versenum>1</SUP> Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP>

which one do you stumble at?
I think I have already answered that.

when you sin do you ask forgiveness?
Fairly understanding your theology of salvation, I don't think you will like my answer but I am going to answer you truthfully:

When I sin and I am aware of it, I am repentive....regretfull!
I will even say something like: "Sorry Lord" I didn't mean to do that.

I have even said please forgive me.



Now, saying all that, I do not think that asking for forgiveness is required to stay in covenant with God and therefore saved. Here are some things that support this for me:

• Jesus died for our sins...all of them.
• Jesus died once and for all.
• Asking for forgiveness is a good thing as long as one does not think it is required for continued salvation. If this is in your heart, once you do that, then your salvation is of your works and that is not true. And, if you think that these works are required from you, it is an afront to God by telling him that his grace is not sufficient for our salvation.

I posted all of my requirements from you above.