Are you really saved?

[JonahofAkron]

JonahofAkron,

Glad to see your return. hope your day went well.

It was fabulous. Thank you for your concern. I've enjoyed out dialogue immensely. I apologize that it's taken this long to respond. I own a small pie shop and it can be fairly busy near the holidays....especially at the end of a groupon.

Welcome to my world. :wink:

Ha! Indeed.

I'd like to limit discussing the 'point' to the 2 Corinthians 3 passage if you don't mind, unless you see them as inseparable.

Completely understandable. I used the connection between the verses as a point of reference for the idea that the New Covenant takes away the penalty of sin for those in Messiah.

In 2 Cor 3 I don't see the effect of Christ's substituted death penalty for the believer as being part of the passage. I can only see the contrast being drawn by Paul between that which those who were under the OC recieved (commandments in stone) versus that which those under the NC recieved (ministration of the spirit).

Actually, that's my point. The death penalty, I mean. Messiah took it for us and I think the verses here and in Hebrews are definitely linked. Hebrews is the how and these verses are the why.

I don't understand why you don't see this. Or how you do see this.

It may just be my miscommunication again. My apologies.

Yes, I am familiar with that story.

The statement that it faded because Moses was a sinful man, I have trouble with. I can't find that in scripture. I find that it faded but never given a reason as to why it did. How did you conclude it was due to his sinfulness?

I suppose it doesn't. Hmmm...my fault. I think I misspoke about which parts were important. I want to pull back a bit and give a different focus. The part is going to be in defining the New Covenant, itself, because that is key to how I get the understanding that Torah is relevant-it's part of the New Covenant. The death penalties associated with various statues and laws are what have been disposed of and are, in fact, the ministration of death. The problem with the Law is actually a problem in us, not in the Law, but I may be getting off point.


[QUOTR]Will as in future? The ministration of the spirit is a present tense event whose results are seen in the here and now. [/QUOTE] I agree. Maybe my thoughts were discombobulated.

The glory spoken of in the passage was the glory of the Ten Commandments and not Moses' face.

I agree. That's what I was trying to say, but failed.

I understand. You perceive that that which is done away with is the glory of the shine on Moses face. I cannot get that no matter how many times I read this chapter.

It isn't there and that's because I read into what I wanted to see...this is me apologizing for being problematic in hermeneutical and interpretational views.

I looked into the Greek because 'charges' would have completely changed my understanding. The correct rendering is 'ordinances' or 'decrees' which are basically laws. The word δόγμασιν can be found 5 times Luke 2:1, Acts 16:4, Acts 17:7, Eph 2:15 and in this verse in Col. Each time it speaks in regards to some type of law.

I will study the occurrences, but either way, the immediate context of the verse at hand sin. Proof texting is also vitally important, obviously. If we can't see prophecies of the New Covenant, Messiah's words, and Paul's letters all lining up, we have a serious problem. Any evacuation of Torah from the lives of the believers would violate Messiah's express commands in Matthew 5, at the very least, and would create serious prophetic conundrums if the claim of the prophets is constantly 'commands written on their hearts'. If we see this any other way, I feel we perpetuate a myth based on metaphysical and nondescript guidelines.

Especially to note is Eph 2:15 where it speaks about 'abolishing in his flesh the enmity, the law of commandments written in ordinances'. These 'commandments' are what separated the Jews from the Gentiles. By their removal it says he brought the two together making one new man.

I only find that man made doctrine has been at the root of this animosity. As a matter of fact, Paul tells the Ephesians that they were created to do good works. Good works are living out commands of Torah.

So when it says 'handwriting of ordinances that was against us' it is literally saying that the 'written law was our adversary'.

Two thing strike me about this statement: as something that God gave and ordained, the Torah can not be against us...the other is the place of Torah-it is not meant for condemnation or salvation, so seeing it as out 'adversary' is not only dangerous, it turns what God created into a lie by seeking to turn an inanimate object (rules) into some sort of enemy. This is most disconcerting as God gave them to us for our benefit.

One who would go up 'against' us. And it compliments that by adding that it was 'contrary' to us. Our 'list of sins' would not be contrary to us in the least.

I disagree on more than one ground: our sins are what separate us and what will kill us if we don't have them expunged by Messiah-I believe this to be the point of the context. The Law cannot be against us. Our sins, however, are constantly against is and the life we were designed to lead.

I hope this is making sense. I know it goes against your current position but I am trying my best to be Berean and study, study, study. It is what the text is saying to me.

This is what I really enjoy about our conversation. If you were to visit Texas, I'm sure we could talk for hours. Thank you for your truly great character.

Col 2:16 comes on the heels of the previous study about handwriting in ordinances. Same context.

Agreed. Context is king.

Verse 16 actually starts with 'Therefore' in the Greek being a connector to the previous statements. Verses 8-15 are a complete thought followed by 16-19 as another but related to each other. The second being dependent on the first. So using your example of 'list of sins' being nailed to the cross and contrary to us there would be no reason for Paul to begin talking about ordinances like meats, drinks, holyday, or Sabbath. And finalize in speaking of Touch not, Handle not, Taste not. But if he were expounding on the previous paragraph including 'writing in ordinances' which were nailed to the cross then the next two paragraphs make sense.

This is very true. I'll have to give this area some more thought and prayer. I will say this: if we are not to sin, we should clarify what 'sin' is.

I tried and tried to read it and see it the other way but it just doesn't work.

You can only do what you can do. Another failure on my part, it seems, to fully explain the position.

Quality answer. In this case everyone without exception agrees on the Ten Commandments and therefore there is no reason to bring them up while the other things may have been questionable. I could see why you would see it that way. But if this kind of clarity was in effect then Paul would have no need to write to the Romans speaking of 5 of them. Just thinking out loud. There is no instance of new believers being addressed to learn and follow them as part of salvation. I understand that the absence doesn't constitute the opposite as true either. I have to say that 'if' the Ten Commandments weren't 'done away' with then your argument here would be plausible.

The Ten seem to me to be the categories that the rest of the commands fall into. They are first because they demonstrate exactly what all of the rest are about. Paul's writing of them in no way negates their adherence at this point. He could have used them because of their universal role in the lives of the believers.

Wow, that was a lot to unpack. Gentile believers being allowed into the body of Christ. I'm confused. By the time this letter was written Peter had already started adding Gentile believers to the church (Cornelius).

This is true. Unfortunately, this is still a period of conflict for the Body. Pharisees believed that the New Covenant was most certainly applicable to all nations, but only through Israel and would have required anyone seeking entrance to become a Jew first. I think the entirety of Paul's letters can be viewed in this context: how are Gentiles supposed to enter the Body of Messiah? Paul's answer is spiritually by faith; an oft repeated phrase in his letters and one that established the Gentiles as being part of Messiah.

Cornelius is the first to Gentile to be shown having the Spirit. Paul's letters and the Elders' letter seem to come years after this incident.

And Paul had already finished his first missionary trip church planting Gentile churches. They were already a part of the body of Christ. The Judaizers are seeming to say that they weren't but they already were.

I agree. That is the crux of the position. I believe the conversations about the Gentiles by Jacob are not necessarily for Gentiles already in Messiah, though I'm sure it provided clarification, it seems that the council convened to decide what would happen for those entering in later. Either way, you are correct about the Judaizers: their entire goal was to place the Torah and the Oral Torah on new converts immediately. Paul appears to be saying that not only is Oral Torah a bad idea, but spiritual growth happens slowly.

Sorry this was an inserted thought that meant the scriptures we are already discussing. Nevermind.

No worries.

Could it be that Isaiah is seeing the future redemption that Paul spoke of for Israel?

Either way, Gentiles are now a part of Israel. I also see that Isaiah is saying that Gentiles are keeping Sabbath.

This very well could include a new temple and animal sacrifices. Just a thought. I haven't studied it out.

If there is no separation in the New Man, I don't see how Torah could only include the Jews.

I enjoy the exchange as well as the time spent in the word seeking for clarity on what God Almighty would have of us.

Most excellent. I hope this continues.

Do you classify yourself under any certain sect? Just curious. I do not. I was Baptist until I saw error.

That's how I started as well. I probably classify myself as a messianic Jew, though I'm not a fan of labeling...it incorrectly identifies people with things they may not even believe.

have a blessed day.

Gary

You as well, sir.

Jonah

 

[my_little_pony]

who is Jesus referring to when he call and use the word father

1. Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Hi Ozell, I think you are confusing what it means to use "father" as a title and what it means to use "father" as a descriptive term.

Jesus did not forbid the use of the word father but he did forbid it being used as a title. For example, I have a biological father. He is my father. I can say, "my father is taller than me" and I've still not used the word as a title.

However, if I say, "Hi father, how are you"? then I've just used the word as an address rather than a descriptive term.

"Call no man on earth your father, master, teacher".

He immediately follows these comments up with:

MT 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

MT 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

That's what the titles represent; people exalting themselves above one another.

This becomes especially clear when people argue, for no apparent logical reason, that we MUST use these special titles for one another. Some people even become angry to the point of threatening to fire employees or parents claiming their grown children don't love them anymore.

When we are children we call our parents "mother" and "father" to make it clear that those two people have a special relationship to us that is different to other people. As children we need to understand that.

But when we grow up and become adults, we put away childish things and we become brothers and sisters in the Kingdom of Heaven with ONE father, master, teacher. this is not to say that our biological parents are not our biological parents anymore, but just that we recognize one another as brothers and sisters in spirit.

Are we willing to smash our pride and do it the way Jesus said to do it?

 

[Kit Carson]

I am saved. I believe in God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.

That is all it takes. Nothing more. If you want me to go out in the middle of the field and shout it I will, if you tell me if you do,, I will chop off your head. I will say ....well I sure did want to go fishing a few more times, but if this is what it takes today, I will still shout it.

That is all it takes. Very simple.

All this fussing over theology , doctrine, this or that denomination, Christian or Catholic, to me is very silly. We when we do these things act just like the ones who wanted to follow the law and not accept grace.

Pretty simple to me, the box is under the Christmas tree, it says for Kit on it. I open it up an say .....Thank you for your love and grace.

I will do all I can to make you proud of me. I just accept the rest of it all by faith.

It works too.....just this past week I have started getting aggravated at all daily white lies. If I want to go fishing or do something on a day off, I put a message on my phone something like , I am out of town , or I have a dental appointment .......not anymore......no, I just say, I have went fishing today, leave me a message and I will call you back this evening.

People call me and say.....something came up.....yea right. Lol!
Two words and I know.

So just accept, and tell Christ , Thank you. Let the holy spirit guide you......so very simple.

All this you are right, I am right, they are right, is to me just silly.

God is right, that is all ............nuff said. :shade::shade::wink:

Kit

 

[jiggyfly]

Nice post RJ, and I agree there are many more scriptures that agree with your post, about 600.

 

[RJ]

Nice post RJ, and I agree there are many more scriptures that agree with your post, about 600.

I appreciated the encouragement!

 

[Peace Seeker]

I agree the New covenant replaces animal sacrifice and the shedding of blood.

did it replace the commandments?

Hi Ozell,

Jesus fulfilled the Law but gave us something better, which is grace. The Apostle Paul was adamant that we are not under the law. So if I say we ARE under the law then shall I throw out most of the new testament that Paul wrote?

I think endeavoring to obey the 10 commandments and actually being under them is not the same thing.

 

[agua]

Hi Ozell,
.....

I think endeavoring to obey the 10 commandments and actually being under them is not the same thing.

Can you elaborate on this some more PS.
This is an interesting and very relevant point.

 

[RJ]

Hi Ozell,

Jesus fulfilled the Law but gave us something better, which is grace. The Apostle Paul was adamant that we are not under the law. So if I say we ARE under the law then shall I throw out most of the new testament that Paul wrote?

I think endeavoring to obey the 10 commandments and actually being under them is not the same thing.

I think endeavoring to obey the 10 commandments and actually being under them is not the same thing

Very well put Peace Seeker!

 

[Peace Seeker]

Can you elaborate on this some more PS.
This is an interesting and very relevant point.

God put His law on our hearts and we as His children want to please and obey Him. It is a natural consequence of salvation and being of God that we try to obey Him. You could say we even do it instinctively.

Therefore it is not because we are under coercion to obey (which would be the case if we were "under the law"), we just do. No enforced mandate to follow needed.

I don't know if that makes sense, but it does to me. (LOL)

 

[Peace Seeker]

I think endeavoring to obey the 10 commandments and actually being under them is not the same thing

Very well put Peace Seeker!

Thanks, the Spirit does give me my moments!

 

[agua]

God put His law on our hearts and we as His children want to please and obey Him. It is a natural consequence of salvation and being of God that we try to obey Him. You could say we even do it instinctively.

Therefore it is not because we are under coercion to obey (which would be the case if we were "under the law"), we just do. No enforced mandate to follow needed.

I don't know if that makes sense, but it does to me. (LOL)

That makes perfect sense PS. Thanks.

Joh_14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

 

[gdemoss]

I apologize that it's taken this long to respond. I own a small pie shop and it can be fairly busy near the holidays....especially at the end of a groupon.

Take as long as you need. God willing you will return. Pie sounds good about right now.

Ha! Indeed.

I new you'd understand.

Completely understandable. I used the connection between the verses as a point of reference for the idea that the New Covenant takes away the penalty of sin for those in Messiah.

Thank you.

Actually, that's my point. The death penalty, I mean. Messiah took it for us and I think the verses here and in Hebrews are definitely linked. Hebrews is the how and these verses are the why.
It may just be my miscommunication again. My apologies.

I think I understand your position now. The 'done away' with is being applied to the laws power to kill.

I suppose it doesn't. Hmmm...my fault. I think I misspoke about which parts were important. I want to pull back a bit and give a different focus. The part is going to be in defining the New Covenant, itself, because that is key to how I get the understanding that Torah is relevant-it's part of the New Covenant. The death penalties associated with various statues and laws are what have been disposed of and are, in fact, the ministration of death. The problem with the Law is actually a problem in us, not in the Law, but I may be getting off point.

I am working on my own understanding of the New Covenant. Part of it is establishing the place for the Old Testament writings. I have lots of work ahead of me on this.

Very true, there is no problem with the law except that it cannot bring righteousness. It is weak through the flesh. The problem is sin that dwells within the flesh.

I agree. That's what I was trying to say, but failed.

If I could only get my thoughts crossed to others...the problem is that I have to use words.

It isn't there and that's because I read into what I wanted to see...this is me apologizing for being problematic in hermeneutical and interpretational views.

I am working backwards. I used to see a lot that wasn't in scripture. I am working very hard to be disciplined in this area. 'hermeneutical ' that's one of them $3 words like 'systematic theology' that do nothing but confuse me. The wiser one needs to be to understand the concepts put forth in the bible under any system makes me leery. God chose the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.

I will study the occurrences, but either way, the immediate context of the verse at hand sin. Proof texting is also vitally important, obviously. If we can't see prophecies of the New Covenant, Messiah's words, and Paul's letters all lining up, we have a serious problem. Any evacuation of Torah from the lives of the believers would violate Messiah's express commands in Matthew 5, at the very least, and would create serious prophetic conundrums if the claim of the prophets is constantly 'commands written on their hearts'. If we see this any other way, I feel we perpetuate a myth based on metaphysical and nondescript guidelines.

I am still working on this area and you are helping. Colossians is a letter written to Gentile believers and must be understood that way. I continue to reread the whole book with different questions in mind. If it was to be understood that the gentiles in question were being told not to allow others to judge them for taking part in holydays, the Sabbath or the new moon feast then why would he mention food and drink? The 10 Commandments has nothing to do with food and drink. The dietary laws in the OT are not enforce (1 Tim 4:3-5). I can eat and drink anything including alcohol (although I don't choose to). So the argument falls flat. The contrary is more applicable that he is telling these gentile believers not to let others judge them for not partaking or abstaining in one thing or the other. The intriguing thing is that the law is spoken of as a man's covenant. That if it is confirmed it cannot be disanulled (Gal 3:15). This verse also must be considered as something spoken to gentile believers. I have more to meditate on this issue. Thanks for helping me.

I only find that man made doctrine has been at the root of this animosity. As a matter of fact, Paul tells the Ephesians that they were created to do good works. Good works are living out commands of Torah.

So the commandments in ordinances abolished by the cross of Christ are those that are man-made? The good works are the 10 commandments? The Mosaic law didn't bring animosity between Jews and others? God's law is perfect. If someone keeps it they make others look bad and receive the reward of persecution. Jesus is the epitome of this. Now of course there were man made traditions/commandments that brought on animosity as well. I don't deny that. Look at the Pharisees. I just think it is too far of a jump to define the good works mentioned in Ephesians as the 10 commandments. Due to an unresolved issue in Colossians spoken of above.

Two thing strike me about this statement: as something that God gave and ordained, the Torah can not be against us...the other is the place of Torah-it is not meant for condemnation or salvation, so seeing it as out 'adversary' is not only dangerous, it turns what God created into a lie by seeking to turn an inanimate object (rules) into some sort of enemy. This is most disconcerting as God gave them to us for our benefit.

I see and understand your point. I agree as well, that is if I were looking at it from the perspective of someone who is trying to follow it as part of their religion. The way I was looking at it though was from the perspective of the sinner. The law is contrary to him. The law is his enemy since it will minister death to him. See what I mean?

I disagree on more than one ground: our sins are what separate us and what will kill us if we don't have them expunged by Messiah-I believe this to be the point of the context. The Law cannot be against us. Our sins, however, are constantly against is and the life we were designed to lead.

Once again, I agree with you. Our sin separates us from God. They are the nail in our coffin. Sin is our mortal enemy. But while we were yet sinners is the way it needs to be seen. The law having been given because of transgressions was enemy of all sinners. Exposing the sin. Justifiably killing us. So I say yes you are correct from a saved persons point of view. Hope this makes sense. It seems clear to me today...heh.

This is what I really enjoy about our conversation. If you were to visit Texas, I'm sure we could talk for hours. Thank you for your truly great character.

If the Lord wills anythings possible. But it is always about him. Praise God he gave me my character. As Paul said, "I am what I am by the grace of God". He has blessed you with much the same. Praise God.

This is very true. I'll have to give this area some more thought and prayer. I will say this: if we are not to sin, we should clarify what 'sin' is.

We should. Lets make that a new topic/thread "How to define sin?"

The Ten seem to me to be the categories that the rest of the commands fall into. They are first because they demonstrate exactly what all of the rest are about. Paul's writing of them in no way negates their adherence at this point. He could have used them because of their universal role in the lives of the believers.

True. The Ten were built on 2. (Mt 22:37-40).

This is true. Unfortunately, this is still a period of conflict for the Body. Pharisees believed that the New Covenant was most certainly applicable to all nations, but only through Israel and would have required anyone seeking entrance to become a Jew first. I think the entirety of Paul's letters can be viewed in this context: how are Gentiles supposed to enter the Body of Messiah? Paul's answer is spiritually by faith; an oft repeated phrase in his letters and one that established the Gentiles as being part of Messiah.

I don't think there was ever a period without conflict for the body.

Cornelius is the first to Gentile to be shown having the Spirit. Paul's letters and the Elders' letter seem to come years after this incident.

Yes they do.


thank you again. This conversation brought up lots of study tonight. It took 3 hours for me to complete this. Read, read and reread.

Have a blessed night in our Lord.

Gary

 

[Stickz]

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. These verses tell me that if we are allowing sin to rule in our lives we are under the law. The law was given to destroy the flesh. If we live and walk in the flesh ( Romans 8 ), we will die with the flesh because of the law. If we live and walk in the Spirit, we will live because of grace.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Notice that it doesn't say, "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? It doesn't matter anymore because God no longer looks at your sin." It says, "God forbid".

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. If His commandments are a grievance to you then you have yourself a problem: You are living in the flesh and therefore under the law.

 

[RJ]

The service of God is freedom; the service of the world is bondage. No man ever yet heard a true Christian say that the laws of God, requiring him to lead a holy life, were stern and "grievous."


For this is the love of God - This the love of God that he produces. It is vain to pretend love to God while we live in opposition to his will. His commandments - To love him with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves, are not grievous - are not burdensome; for no man is burdened with the duties which his own love imposes. The old proverb explains the meaning of the apostle's words, Love feels no loads. Love to God brings strength from God; through his love and his strength, all his commandments are not only easy and light, but pleasant and delightful.

Romans 13:9
The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

All of the commandments are fullfilled by this one command: "To love God with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves".

1 Corinthians 13: 2-7
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-28652 class=versenum>2</SUP> If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28653 class=versenum>3</SUP> If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,<SUP class=footnote value='[b]'>[b]</SUP> but have not love, I gain nothing.
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-28654 class=versenum>4</SUP> Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28655 class=versenum>5</SUP> It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28656 class=versenum>6</SUP> Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28657 class=versenum>7</SUP> It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Jesus said that he did not come to do away with the Law but to fufill it.

Indeed, with Christ in us is the fulfillment of all of God's commandments. This the essence of the New Covenant and our possesion of Christ's resurrected life.

This is not true of the Old Covenant, there was not a complete fulfillment of the law in those days. Their ritual and sacrifical sytem was always and only in preparation until the Messiah was revealed.

Under the New Covenant, all of God's commandments are still with us, holy, righteous and we cherish them but, under no circumstances are we required to do them to gain salvation.

We gain and have salvation through Christ alone. As a result of this and, through our faith and love for God and neighbor, we strive for perfection until we gain it in full:

1 Corinthians 13: 9-12
<SUP>9</SUP> For we know in part and we prophesy in part, <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28660 class=versenum>10</SUP> but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28661 class=versenum>11</SUP> When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28662 class=versenum>12</SUP> Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known

 

[Eccl12v13]

Under the New Covenant, all of God's commandments are still with us, holy, righteous and we cherish them but, under no circumstances are we required to do them to gain salvation.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

And just what is it that we must obey for eternal salvation?

 

[ozell]

I am saved. I believe in God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.

That is all it takes. Nothing more. If you want me to go out in the middle of the field and shout it I will, if you tell me if you do,, I will chop off your head. I will say ....well I sure did want to go fishing a few more times, but if this is what it takes today, I will still shout it.

That is all it takes. Very simple.

All this fussing over theology , doctrine, this or that denomination, Christian or Catholic, to me is very silly. We when we do these things act just like the ones who wanted to follow the law and not accept grace.

Pretty simple to me, the box is under the Christmas tree, it says for Kit on it. I open it up an say .....Thank you for your love and grace.

I will do all I can to make you proud of me. I just accept the rest of it all by faith.

It works too.....just this past week I have started getting aggravated at all daily white lies. If I want to go fishing or do something on a day off, I put a message on my phone something like , I am out of town , or I have a dental appointment .......not anymore......no, I just say, I have went fishing today, leave me a message and I will call you back this evening.

People call me and say.....something came up.....yea right. Lol!
Two words and I know.

So just accept, and tell Christ , Thank you. Let the holy spirit guide you......so very simple.

All this you are right, I am right, they are right, is to me just silly.

God is right, that is all ............nuff said. :shade::shade::wink:

Kit

emotions

what are you saved from?

why should we believe your words(shout)?

 

[ozell]

Hi Ozell, I think you are confusing what it means to use "father" as a title and what it means to use "father" as a descriptive term.

Jesus did not forbid the use of the word father but he did forbid it being used as a title. For example, I have a biological father. He is my father. I can say, "my father is taller than me" and I've still not used the word as a title.

However, if I say, "Hi father, how are you"? then I've just used the word as an address rather than a descriptive term.

"Call no man on earth your father, master, teacher".

He immediately follows these comments up with:

MT 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

MT 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

That's what the titles represent; people exalting themselves above one another.

This becomes especially clear when people argue, for no apparent logical reason, that we MUST use these special titles for one another. Some people even become angry to the point of threatening to fire employees or parents claiming their grown children don't love them anymore.

When we are children we call our parents "mother" and "father" to make it clear that those two people have a special relationship to us that is different to other people. As children we need to understand that.

But when we grow up and become adults, we put away childish things and we become brothers and sisters in the Kingdom of Heaven with ONE father, master, teacher. this is not to say that our biological parents are not our biological parents anymore, but just that we recognize one another as brothers and sisters in spirit.

Are we willing to smash our pride and do it the way Jesus said to do it?

MLP

Father is a title

lets move on to something else.

 

[ozell]

Originally Posted by Eccl12v13
Did Jesus REALLY take away the sins of the world....OR.....did He redeem us from the curse of the law that said blood is required for the remission of sin?

Because if He took away ALL of the sins of the world, who is it that He is coming back to punish upon His return? Along with ruling the earth when He returns, is He not supposed to also punish those that transgressed HIs laws? How can He punish sinners if ALL of the sins of the world were taken away?

Eccl12v13,

You can't always be a such a literalist.
Of course you know that the Bible teaches a lot by using such things as symbols, symbolism and parables to name a few.
We can never take many things, as stated, literally but, to learn and understand the truer meaning of the truth that is being spoken.

Sin is and has always been in the world since the fall of Adam and Eve.
The Old Covenant sacrificail system only covered over the sins of the people who participated. This appeased God until the "Day of Atonement" the very next year and had to be repeated year after year.

Jesus did not remove sin from the world so that it doesn't exist any more. But, what he did do with his perfect and final sacrifice, he ended the Old Covenant sacrifical system. He essentially, for all, took the sins away from the sight of God.

All have forgivess available now (everyone, all unbelivers), for God says there are no more sacrifices. Because of finally solving the sin problem, this it clears the way, a path to God, and all that believe are rewarded with salvation.

Hebrews 10:10
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
Romans 6:10
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God
Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.


There are many more scriptures that state this truth!

now that you are saved and believe in Jesus have you sinned since your acceptance of Jesus?

 

[ozell]

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

And just what is it that we must obey for eternal salvation?

praise God

 

[ozell]

=RJ;189036]The service of God is freedom; the service of the world is bondage. No man ever yet heard a true Christian say that the laws of God, requiring him to lead a holy life, were stern and "grievous."

what is a true christian?

For this is the love of God - This the love of God that he produces. It is vain to pretend love to God while we live in opposition to his will. His commandments - To love him with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves, are not grievous - are not burdensome; for no man is burdened with the duties which his own love imposes. The old proverb explains the meaning of the apostle's words, Love feels no loads. Love to God brings strength from God; through his love and his strength, all his commandments are not only easy and light, but pleasant and delightful.

Romans 13:9
The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

All of the commandments are fullfilled by this one command

and Paul showed us how to love our fellow man, keep the commandments.

: "To love God with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves".

how?

by not stealing from our nieghbour, or killing our neighbour, or coveting our neighbour, or lying on our neighbour

1 Corinthians 13: 2-7
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-28652 class=versenum>2</SUP> If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28653 class=versenum>3</SUP> If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,<SUP class=footnote value='[b]'>[b]</SUP> but have not love, I gain nothing.
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-28654 class=versenum>4</SUP> Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28655 class=versenum>5</SUP> It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28656 class=versenum>6</SUP> Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28657 class=versenum>7</SUP> It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Jesus said that he did not come to do away with the Law but to fufill it.

the commandments are still valid

Indeed, with Christ in us is the fulfillment of all of God's commandments. This the essence of the New Covenant and our possesion of Christ's resurrected life.

where is this written?

Jesus is in us only if we keep his word and walk as he walked

This is not true of the Old Covenant, there was not a complete fulfillment of the law in those days. Their ritual and sacrifical sytem was always and only in preparation until the Messiah was revealed.

and then it ended the law of sacrifice but the OC commandments remains

Exodus 34:28
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Under the New Covenant, all of God's commandments are still with us, holy, righteous and we cherish them but, under no circumstances are we required to do them to gain salvation.

you contradict the Lord command, eternal life is salvation

Matthew 19

<SUP id=en-KJV-23778 class=versenum>15</SUP>And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.


<SUP id=en-KJV-23779 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>16</SUP>And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? <SUP id=en-KJV-23780 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>17</SUP>And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

We gain and have salvation through Christ alone. As a result of this and, through our faith and love for God and neighbor, we strive for perfection until we gain it in full:

1 Corinthians 13: 9-12
<SUP>9</SUP> For we know in part and we prophesy in part, <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28660 class=versenum>10</SUP> but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28661 class=versenum>11</SUP> When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28662 class=versenum>12</SUP> Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known

the commandments are Jesus from his own mouth created with no mans help

if you want salvation, Jesus said keep the commandments

eternal life is salvation