This Doctrine does NOT line up with the Word of God!

[jari]

Let's read the scripture again and use just a little common sense here;

Exod.32
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

So what would have happened had they NOT sinned against God?

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what is your point? If people dont believe in jesus and worship other gods thats sin against God. Forsaking living God.

Pretty obvious thats not the way... as salvation is only found in Jesus and in no other name.

And may i add we may always come to the Lord to receive Him as our savior.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[james g]

Exod.32
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Moses' willingness to be blotted out of the Book foreshadows Him who alone could do the atoning work. He offered himself without spot unto God, (Heb. 9:14) and gave His life a ransom for many. He died for that nation (John 11:51, 52).

What Doctrine lines up with the Word of God?Does Jesus save you or not.Yes or no?
You did not like this I did.shiloh357=Eternal Security is not based on what you do. It is based on the faithfulness of God to keep His promises to His children. Eternal Secuirty does not teach that you can sin as much as you want. Those who believ in Eternal Security believe that a true Christian is not out looking for a way to sin.They are not living a sinful lifestyle in open rebellion to God.I like this.

 

[Eccl12v13]

what is your point?

And that is just what you are missing here.....the point!

Exod.32
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

So what would have happened had they NOT sinned against God?

If they did NOT sin, or break God's laws, their names would NOT be blotted out of His books.

The whole point here is that GOD Himself tells us that a name written in His books is NOT permanent!

If a person dies while their name is in God's books they will receive salvation.

If a person dies and their name is NOT in God's books they will NOT receive salvation.

Let's read what God tells us of the righteous. And understand if God calls one righteous.....they ARE righteous. But can they loose their righteousness based on something they do? Let's read.....

Ezek.18
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

God's word tells us that WHEN, not if or maybe, but WHEN the righteous stops keeping His laws AND DIES in them, that once righteous man shall die.......as in the second death.

Now this is GOD saying that the righteous can loose his righteousness.

You do not have to believe God's word...you do have a choice!


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[Eccl12v13]

Exod.32
Eternal Secuirty does not teach that you can sin as much as you want.

But it does give the false hope that there is NOTHING a person can do to have their name blotted out of God's books, when God's word tells us that sin can cause the righteous to loose their righteousness;


Exod.32
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Ezek.18
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

.

 

[jari]

And that is just what you are missing here.....the point!

Exod.32
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

So what would have happened had they NOT sinned against God?

If they did NOT sin, or break God's laws, their names would NOT be blotted out of His books.

The whole point here is that GOD Himself tells us that a name written in His books is NOT permanent!

If a person dies while their name is in God's books they will receive salvation.

If a person dies and their name is NOT in God's books they will NOT receive salvation.

Let's read what God tells us of the righteous. And understand if God calls one righteous.....they ARE righteous. But can they loose their righteousness based on something they do? Let's read.....

Ezek.18
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

God's word tells us that WHEN, not if or maybe, but WHEN the righteous stops keeping His laws AND DIES in them, that once righteous man shall die.......as in the second death.

Now this is GOD saying that the righteous can loose his righteousness.

You do not have to believe God's word...you do have a choice!


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no your missing the point. the people in OT were not born again believers. do you know what born again means? its person whom God has given His Holy spirit and he has become a child of God. Those people who worshipped golden calf had not understood much.

Born again cant lose his salvation.

and Ezek.18 does not answer this as it only speaks about death and living.

Our rightneusness comes from Jesus.


Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


God has predestinated us and justified us. If persons name was to be removed from book of life thats a person who God never predestinated nor saved nor did He know Jesus in personal level or have the Holy spirit.


And why do you keep arguing that we could lose our salvation using verse that has nothing to do with born again people?

God's word tells us that WHEN, not if or maybe, but WHEN the righteous stops keeping His laws AND DIES in them, that once righteous man shall die.......as in the second death.

And why do keep twisting God's word? You just make verses say whatever you want them to say. dont you have any problem with that?

It says what it says and not what you think.

should you say to God , Lord dont write that write this?

i think you should have been His counselor when God gave his word... wouldnt have to change the words afterwards.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Matthew 34-40
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

These are righteous people who didn't know who he even was or is.
That doesn't seem to align with most doctrines.

 

[Eccl12v13]

And why do keep twisting God's word? You just make verses say whatever you want them to say. dont you have any problem with that?

What did I twist here?

Ezek.18
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Did God say, if or maybe? NO! God said WHEN!

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[Eccl12v13]

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God has predestinated us and justified us.

Now do you REALLY believe that God has already decided who will be allowed eteranl life with Him? That means WE do not have a choice in the matter!

Let's read something else;

Rev.17
[8] The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

So these individuals did not have a choice either....seeing as, "...whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world..."

Now if this is the case why should ANYBODY do anything? If the choice has been made...and there is NOWAY salvation can be lost....why not jsut sit back and live our lifes the way we want to? Because...according to you, "...God has predestinated us and justified us."

If this is true why would Paul tell us this;

1Cor.9
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Why would Paul have to keep his body under subjection if his fate has been sealed?



.

 

[james g]

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.To blot out of Jehovah's book, is to cut off from fellowship with the living God, or from the kingdom of those who live before God, and to deliver over to death.

 

[Eccl12v13]

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.To blot out of Jehovah's book, is to cut off from fellowship with the living God, or from the kingdom of those who live before God, and to deliver over to death.

Rev.20
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Would this not be loosing your salvation?

And what is the ONLY thing that can cause this?

SIN!

And WHO controls whether we sin or not?

WE DO!

.

.

 

[james g]

The Bible mentions various books, Num. 14, the Book of the Wars of the Lord, Ps 69:28 and Isa. 4:3 Book of the Living; Mal 3:16, Book of Remembrance, Rev. 20-12, Lamb's Book of Life. There are also many books in keeping the record of an individuals life.

Exod. 32:33: "And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." If one dies without forgiveness of their sins their name vanishes out of the record book of life.

 

[jari]

What did I twist here?

Ezek.18
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Did God say, if or maybe? NO! God said WHEN!

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you said it means second death.

 

[jari]

Now do you REALLY believe that God has already decided who will be allowed eteranl life with Him? That means WE do not have a choice in the matter!

Let's read something else;

Rev.17
[8] The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

So these individuals did not have a choice either....seeing as, "...whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world..."

Now if this is the case why should ANYBODY do anything? If the choice has been made...and there is NOWAY salvation can be lost....why not jsut sit back and live our lifes the way we want to? Because...according to you, "...God has predestinated us and justified us."

If this is true why would Paul tell us this;

1Cor.9
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Why would Paul have to keep his body under subjection if his fate has been sealed?



.

because paul was talking about witnessing to people. he wasnt talking about losing his salvation. the context must not be forgotten.

So you dont believe everyword said in bible? im glad you admit.
and im also glad you admit that your doctrine is not based on whole bible but on the the verses you are ok with.


But for those who wonder the predestination and believe the whole bible is true. Id say God saw us somehow suitable for salvation and predestinated us and elected us (chosen).
because he before knew we would accept the Gospel. So we were elected according to God's mercy.

thats the way i see it.


Rom 9:15-16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:18-19 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

 

[Eccl12v13]

The Bible mentions various books, Num. 14, the Book of the Wars of the Lord, Ps 69:28 and Isa. 4:3 Book of the Living; Mal 3:16, Book of Remembrance, Rev. 20-12, Lamb's Book of Life. There are also many books in keeping the record of an individuals life.

Exod. 32:33: "And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." If one dies without forgiveness of their sins their name vanishes out of the record book of life.

And now you are introducing YOUR doctrine here. Can you read to us from God's word that says what you claim, "If one dies without forgiveness of their sins their name vanishes out of the record book of life."

God does NOT tell us WHEN He removes a name from His books. Is it after the 1st, 101st or 1001st sin? We do not know! Nor does HIs word tell us if a name can or will be replaced.

How do you know that a name 'vanishes' out of God's book of life if they do not ask for forgiveness? Does God's word state this anywhere?

That is why there will be a JUDGEMENT! God will open HIs books and;

Rev.20
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Based upon what is written in these books will determine your final dwelling place.

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[Eccl12v13]

So you dont believe everyword said in bible? im glad you admit.

But for those who wonder the predestination and believe the whole bible is true. Id say God saw us somehow suitable for salvation and predestinated us and elected us (chosen).
because he before knew we would accept the Gospel. So we were elected according to God's mercy.

thats the way i see it.


Rom 9:15-16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Rom 9:18-19 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Soooo..that's the way YOU see it now!

So you are equating mercy with predestination and slavation?

And where can we read this from God's word?

Also...at what point did I admit to not believing every word in the bible?

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[jari]

Soooo..that's the way YOU see it now!

So you are equating mercy with predestination and slavation?

And where can we read this from God's word?

Also...at what point did I admit to not believing every word in the bible?

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you make no comment on certain key verses given to you.

and i have given you many verses on each thing you have questioned.

their all there just read up.

 

[Stickz]

Jari: wrong these verses have been discussed many times in these forums. it doent say they have the holy spirit. it says they have only tasted the heavenly gift. When you have holy spirit its more than a taste , you have the very spirit in you.

And as much as these verses get discussed, people still continue to wrongfully use and explain them. The word tasted in Hebrews 6 is the word geuomai in the Greek, also the same word in this verse:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

to say that someone tasted of the Holy Spirit but didn't actually receive it is the same as saying that Jesus only tasted of death but didn't actually go through with it. And if that's the case, then we are all in trouble. Same book. Same author. Same word. Same meaning. He fully died, right? But didn't stay that way. Now, if you want to explain away the Hebrews 6 verse so that it doesn't sound as though one can lose their salvation, then fine, but you need to find another way to do it because the way that you have chosen to do it is wrong.

Jari: so i dont know is it your carelesness but ur twisting the scripture here. making it say what you want.

Who's twisting the scriptures to get what they want out of it? Any honest and unbiased person would agree that you have been caught in your own accusation.

 

[jari]

And as much as these verses get discussed, people still continue to wrongfully use and explain them. The word tasted in Hebrews 6 is the word geuomai in the Greek, also the same word in this verse:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

to say that someone tasted of the Holy Spirit but didn't actually receive it is the same as saying that Jesus only tasted of death but didn't actually go through with it. And if that's the case, then we are all in trouble. Same book. Same author. Same word. Same meaning. He fully died, right? But didn't stay that way. Now, if you want to explain away the Hebrews 6 verse so that it doesn't sound as though one can lose their salvation, then fine, but you need to find another way to do it because the way that you have chosen to do it is wrong.

Who's twisting the scriptures to get what they want out of it? Any honest and unbiased person would agree that you have been caught in your own accusation.

exactly. Jesus only tasted death he didnt die permanetely.

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

is Jesus dead? no He's alive , he merely tasted death for us and rose again.

 

[james g]

And now you are introducing YOUR doctrine here.isn't that what you are doing?wasn't that what you were saying?

 

[james g]

3. You do not know if your name is in God’s books UNTIL the books are opened and your name is read. Rev.20:12,15







<DIR>Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. </DIR><DIR><DIR>Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.</DIR></DIR><DIR>Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. </DIR><DIR>Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. </DIR><DIR>Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. </DIR><DIR>Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. </DIR>can know now that they are saved, according to 1 John.