So just HOW does he delight in God's laws?
Also...Paul DOES keep God's laws! So why would he do that if he knows it leads to death?
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This Doctrine does NOT line up with the Word of God!
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So just HOW does he delight in God's laws?
Also...Paul DOES keep God's laws! So why would he do that if he knows it leads to death?
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Again I ask;
So just HOW does he delight in God's laws?
Also...Paul DOES keep God's laws! So why would he continue to engage in something that he knows leads to death?
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Yet another round.
Dear Eccl12v13, Paul delights in God's laws that does
not mean that he can obey them. Paul never says that.
If you read my quotes from Romans you will find that
the thinking and the doing are different.
Paul says, he may be fond of God's law but it
causes a war within his nature. Paul is not a good
man, rather a wretched man, unable to do good.
Who will free Paul from his condition?
This condition is always present in mankind,
the wishing and the doing are never fulfilled.
Law or no law we are already dead, not only in
our own sin but in the federal inheritance from
Adam. That is why death rages before the law
and after the law.
Dear Eccl12v13, Paul delights in God's laws that does
not mean that he can obey them. Paul never says that.
If you read my quotes from Romans you will find that
the thinking and the doing are different.
Paul says, he may be fond of God's law but it
causes a war within his nature. Paul is not a good
man, rather a wretched man, unable to do good.
Who will free Paul from his condition?
This condition is always present in mankind,
the wishing and the doing are never fulfilled.
Law or no law we are already dead, not only in
our own sin but in the federal inheritance from
Adam. That is why death rages before the law
and after the law.
But did Paul do his best to keep God's laws?
Did not Paul tells others to keep God's laws?
Why would Paul tells us to keep God's laws if keeping them leads to death?
Does God EVER tell man he is not to try to keep His laws?
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Hello.
The answer is no to the first two questions.
Let us look at the solution which Paul explained.
Romans 8 (NKJV)
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
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Live in the Spirit and not in the flesh Eccl12v13.
Where the Spirit is there is no law, law applies to the flesh.
Does Paul tell us to keep laws or to live in the Spirit and
put to death the deeds of the flesh.
We are in fact repeatedly told to love one another.
What else can we do Eccl12v13, it has already been
done. We enter the sabbath rest from works of the flesh.
More proof regarding the apparent law.
Please read the following from Ephesians 2.
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
The answer is no to the first two questions.
Let us look at the solution which Paul explained.
Romans 8 (NKJV)
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
_______________________________________________________________
Live in the Spirit and not in the flesh Eccl12v13.
Where the Spirit is there is no law, law applies to the flesh.
Does Paul tell us to keep laws or to live in the Spirit and
put to death the deeds of the flesh.
We are in fact repeatedly told to love one another.
What else can we do Eccl12v13, it has already been
done. We enter the sabbath rest from works of the flesh.
More proof regarding the apparent law.
Please read the following from Ephesians 2.
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
And here is were one should tread carefully......
God's word tells us that Paul did, in fact, keep God's laws and told others to do the same!
Are you suggesting otherwise?
Are you sure you want to be the one responsible for teaching that Paul did not keep God's laws nor did he tell others to keep God's laws?
Matt.5
[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
So again.....are you 100% sure that Paul did not try to keep God's laws nor did he teach others to keep God's laws?
Again...where in all of God's word does He EVER tell man not to try to keep His laws? Is it possible to keep them perfectly? Of course not! But does God EVER tell man not to try to keep His laws? Never!
Let's read just ONE verse and ask ourselves, "When Paul read this law did he do his best NOT to break it?" Let's read.....
Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Paul tells us if it were not for God's law he would not have known that it was wrong to covet! Now do you think once he became aware that it was a sin to covet, he did his best NOT to commit that sin? Of couse he did!
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Stickz
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Just a few thoughts:
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: This is part of the new covenant: What laws are being referred to here? And what is the purpose of putting them into the hearts and minds of the people, if not for them to be obeyed?
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
But it keeps no one from using the verse when it's relevant to their argument. Should we assume that Jesus spent three years preaching things just to void it all out when He died on the cross?
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Has this day happened yet? And, there are still things from the law that are yet to be fulfilled.
Are we, or are we not supposed to keep this particular commandment: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself?
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Which law are we trying to fulfill here? And why?
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. If we steal something from someone, we are breaking the 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself ' commandment. Also when we commit adultery or bear false witness.
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
If Paul were preaching grace and not law, I wonder what his intentions were with these verses to the people of Ephesus:
Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
Ephesians 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
quoting one of the ten commandments to them as though it were still relevant?
I Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
I Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. The first part of this verse is from Deuteronomy, then what Jesus said in red, and now Paul, in this day of grace, is using it here in his letter to Timothy. If the law is no longer valid, why does Paul keep quoting from it?
james g, what do you think about king Saul having the Spirit taken from him?
I Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: This is part of the new covenant: What laws are being referred to here? And what is the purpose of putting them into the hearts and minds of the people, if not for them to be obeyed?
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Jesus was almost always speaking to those under the old covenant. He was speaking to them when He said this too:jiggyfly: Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px inset;" class="alt2"> Originally Posted by Eccl12v13
I implied nothing. I simply quoted scriptures. Jesus gave us the conditions for eternal life by answering the question as such;
Matt.19
17. "......but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
If you do not agree, it is not with me; it's with Jesus and the answer that your saviour gave you!
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</td></tr></tbody></table>
Jesus was speaking to those who were still under the old covenant wasn't He?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
But it keeps no one from using the verse when it's relevant to their argument. Should we assume that Jesus spent three years preaching things just to void it all out when He died on the cross?
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Has this day happened yet? And, there are still things from the law that are yet to be fulfilled.
Are we, or are we not supposed to keep this particular commandment: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself?
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Which law are we trying to fulfill here? And why?
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. If we steal something from someone, we are breaking the 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself ' commandment. Also when we commit adultery or bear false witness.
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
If Paul were preaching grace and not law, I wonder what his intentions were with these verses to the people of Ephesus:
Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
Ephesians 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
quoting one of the ten commandments to them as though it were still relevant?
I Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
I Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. The first part of this verse is from Deuteronomy, then what Jesus said in red, and now Paul, in this day of grace, is using it here in his letter to Timothy. If the law is no longer valid, why does Paul keep quoting from it?
james g, what do you think about king Saul having the Spirit taken from him?
I Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
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rizen1
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Oh what a glorious day it will be for those whose names are in the book and those who think they belong in the book.
So many ***** houses labelled churches in this country, I truly believe FEW will enter. Let's see if their tithes and offerings get them in.
So many ***** houses labelled churches in this country, I truly believe FEW will enter. Let's see if their tithes and offerings get them in.
And God's word tells us there will be MANY that think they should enter HIs kingdom but will be left outside of it;
Matt.7
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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the verses you posted have been addressed many times in the forums and they got nothing to do with born again losing his salvation. it always comes to people hearing about God but not accepting free gift of salvation.
You say that once saved always saved doesnt line up with scripture but if you argue anything else your contradicting the bible your self. First of Bible says we are Elected and predestinated. And it clearly says salvation is free gift.
Free as in truly free and no strings attached.
Nothing really lines better with bible that OSAS. Its just lack of knowledge of scriptures that makes people think otherwise. So soon is forgetten what has been read from bible and truth is replaced with false imagination from some other verse.
Its also called twisting the scripture to make it say what you want when you know your self that's not what it says.
again lack of knowledge and understanding supports doctrines that contradict the bible it self.
i wonder why it does not seem to be problem to you that bible says salvation is free gift? You can somehow forget this and other parts of the bible to support your beliefs?
i would fear God and not leave His words out.... but i guess its not a problem to you or so many other people.
You say that once saved always saved doesnt line up with scripture but if you argue anything else your contradicting the bible your self. First of Bible says we are Elected and predestinated. And it clearly says salvation is free gift.
Free as in truly free and no strings attached.
Nothing really lines better with bible that OSAS. Its just lack of knowledge of scriptures that makes people think otherwise. So soon is forgetten what has been read from bible and truth is replaced with false imagination from some other verse.
Its also called twisting the scripture to make it say what you want when you know your self that's not what it says.
again lack of knowledge and understanding supports doctrines that contradict the bible it self.
i wonder why it does not seem to be problem to you that bible says salvation is free gift? You can somehow forget this and other parts of the bible to support your beliefs?
i would fear God and not leave His words out.... but i guess its not a problem to you or so many other people.
Children of God
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
So we have become sons. That to me is good reason why our salvation is secure. God has sealed us with His holy spirit that never leaves us , but its until day of redemption.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
So we have become sons. That to me is good reason why our salvation is secure. God has sealed us with His holy spirit that never leaves us , but its until day of redemption.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
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Let's look at the facts of the bible;
Can a name be blotted out of God's books?
Exod.32
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
God's word tells us yes! Now is this me twisting the scriptures?
If a person dies and their name is NOT blotted out of the book of life what does God say will be their reward?
Rev.3
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Their reward will be Jesus confessing that name to God the Father with them being able to enter into God's kingdom.
Is this twisting the scriptures?
And what if a person dies and their name is NOT in God's books?
Rev.20
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
That person will NOT enter into God's kingdom, but will be cast into the lake of fire.
Now is this twisting God's word?
And what does it take, the ONLY thing God tells us that will cause Him to remove a name from His books?
Exod.32
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Now did I twist this scripture also?
Read to me from God's word that once a name is in His books it CANNOT be removed for anything!
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Let's read what Paul had to say about those that had the holy spirit;
Heb.6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[8] But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Now if Paul thought that it was IMPOSSIBLE for those with the Holy Ghost to fall away, why give this warning?
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wrong these verses have been discussed many times in these forums. it doent say they have the holy spirit. it says they have only tasted the heavenly gift. When you have holy spirit its more than a taste , you have the very spirit in you.
so i dont know is it your carelesness but ur twisting the scripture here. making it say what you want.
those people we never born again hence fall away. Bible teaches in John letters than born again do not fall away or go away. backslide and sin maybe but never be impossible to renew to repentance for they are born again and its for born again person more possible to repent than any other human being on earth because they have Holy spirit to help and guide them.
Edit: another point why its evident from the writing that they were not born again was that they never believed in Jesus sacrafice. They did believe they had to recruicify Jesus to them self thus putting him to open shame. The writer was telling in letter to hebrews that Jesus is once time sacrafice for all and not like jews have to do sacrafice again and again for sins.
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you have taken this verse out of context. Do you know what is this sin again God? They made a golden calf there and worshipped it. So they gave up on the living God. Obviously they didnt know God who he really was and so we cant say this is something a born again christian would ever do.
No infact Jesus says that His sheep will know His voice and follow Him.
so we must understand that those people who reject God sin againts Him. and by so never come to know Jesus as Lord and savior.
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Let's read the scripture again and use just a little common sense here;
Exod.32
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
So what would have happened had they NOT sinned against God?
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