Will there be a rapture?

ozell · Jun 14, 2011

=just-a-servant;179531]I've read your thread and the answers to your posts. While I'm not a pre-trib rapture believer, I believe the scriptures do tell of a rapture-like event occurring prior to the promised "Day of Wrath."

1 Thes 4:13-18
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Not only does this scripture speak of a "catching away," it tells us where we will be caught away to: ". . . in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." This may not seem significant but it does answer your question about "Where are we going?"

thanks for responding

yet the rapture is not mentioned.

Caught away can be and is the resurrection

and will we be sitting in the clouds/air with the Lord during this time?

Further, I would point out the scripture is again clear as to where we will go:

John 14:1-4
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Where "My father's house" is is of little concern to me. The fact He is preparing a room for me is the joy I have. I take great comfort in knowing He is doing that IN ADVANCE of my arrival. He knows me!

where will he be since it says that he is coming back?

its not about comfort it is about knowledge.

where will Jesus be when he returns as he stated above?

My third and final objective of this response is to ask the question, "What's your point?" You've raised an interesting question but it's significance to biblical teaching and edification to the body of Christ is pointless. It's a mere exercise in intellectual gymnastics; much like arguing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

IMHO,just-a-servant

yes this is your humble opinion

the point is as the topic says will there be a rapture?

you believe it is but you have not given me proof that there is

rapture means ectasy according to the webster dictionary.

Jesus speaks of a first resurrection, how can someone be caught away before the first resurrection?

again thanks for answering

romans116 · Jun 14, 2011

1 Thes 4:13-18
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

John 14:1-4
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

these scriptures clearly say we will be with Him. Your question asked if there is going to be a rapture. Clearly the word "rapture" is not in the bible. But lets take another approach at this brother. We use the word love in many different ways. I believe there is no love greater than a man that lays his life down for his friends. (John 15:13) Hello can be used in different ways, we can say whats up? supp? whats poppin? whats Happen? ect ect. Rapture is just a modern day use of a word. Another thing. Webster dictionary was created by man. A secular world. A man that probably didnt know Christ. even if there are other words in the dictionary relating to Christ, still there are are a lot of words not put in the dictionary. Im sure sup, poppin, happenen are not in the dictionary as other words for hello. for the rapture its the same thing..

And to be honest brother. It sounds like you are trying to disprove this with the Word of God. Do not be fooled, or deceived the Word of God is truth. and the scriptures above are clear. It would be wise for you to understand this and to quit nit picking. its like math 2+2+4 Its CRYSTAL CLEAR! We as Christians are to talk about this and not argue. if someone proves you wrong. accept it and move on. not one, but a few of us have showed you these scriptures and it is evident. Webster dictionary is NOT the word of God. The bible is. SO for you to go by it is irrelevant and your point is no longer valid.

Thank you brother.
Praying for your understanding

ALSO!! one more thing. PRAY TO THE ONE THAT WROTE IT!!! GOD!!!!ask Him to open your eyes, heart, mind, soul and you will have the answer. our GOd is faithful!
God Bless

~ginah

just-a-servant · Jun 15, 2011

ozell said:
thanks for responding

yet the rapture is not mentioned.

Caught away can be and is the resurrection

and will we be sitting in the clouds/air with the Lord during this time?

Strong's G726: harpazo
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away

The Greek word "harpazo" is used 17 times in 13 verses in the New Testament. In each case the word used matches one of the definitions listed above. Never is it used in the sense of "resurrection." In several cases it is used in the sense of being snatched away:

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Apparently you're not aware the Latin translation of the Greek word "harpazo" is "rapturo" The English translation of "rapturo" is "rapture" and has as one of it's definitions "ectasy" This is where the saying "Something is lost in the translation" is evident. Don't get hung up on the English definition of rapture, since it plainly doesn't grasp the true meaning of the Greek word.

Your statement "Caught away can be and is the resurrection" has not been well thought out within the context of the verses in 1 Thes 4:13-17. In verse 16, the scripture tells us the dead in Christ shall rise first. This "rise first" is a resurrection of the dead event. Common sense would tell you that in order to be resurrected, you must first be dead. Verse 17 then tells of the catching away. "Caught away" (harpazo) does not apply to those who were "dead in Christ" as theirs was a resurrection event. It does apply to those who are alive and remain since resurrection cannot apply to them (they weren't dead). Since the phrase "caught away" is not used in reference to the dead in Christ, it can only apply to those who are alive and therefore cannot be the resurrection as you state.

where will he be since it says that he is coming back?

its not about comfort it is about knowledge.

where will Jesus be when he returns as he stated above?

As far as where will we be? It says clearly in verse 17 we will be caught up (harpazo) to the clouds and meet Him in the air. I can't see Heaven, but I know it exists. I don't know where Heaven is, but I know the way there. I know Jesus is in Heaven and He's prepared a mansion for me. The place may be on Mars; it really doesn't matter, does it? Possessing the knowledge of where it's at or where you'll be located won't change the conditions of getting there, will it?

yes this is your humble opinion

the point is as the topic says will there be a rapture?

you believe it is but you have not given me proof that there is

rapture means ectasy according to the webster dictionary.

Jesus speaks of a first resurrection, how can someone be caught away before the first resurrection?

again thanks for answering

I've addressed the first three lines in my statements above. I'd like to focus on the fourth line here if I may.

I agree no one can be caught away before the first resurrection since the verses in 1 Thes 4:13-17 clearly state the resurrected rise first. Since this resurrection MUST occur first, a catching away (harpazo) prior to the tribulation period is unlikely. The first resurrection is seen in Rev 20:5 as having already occurred but the members of this group (of resurrected ones) include the souls of those who perished during the tribulation: those beheaded for their witness, those who didn't worship the beast, those who didn't receive the mark of the beast, etc. Since the group includes those who die during the tribulation period and the first resurrection MUST occur prior to the catching away, the only conclusion possible is that the catching away occurs near the end of the tribulation and prior to God's Day of Wrath.

To all: Before I get flamed for that last paragraph, if you disagree with it, that's okay. It's over simplified to be sure. There are many other scriptures pointing to this conclusion and they are simple - not contrived or bent to make a point or position statement. I don't think I'm alone in this realization. The scripture is my witness.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

Brother Mike · Jun 16, 2011

The Rapture!!!

Rapture:

This topic has been debated over and over, surprised to see it posted again.....

MelodyC

I can see you are a person who picks and chooses what scriptures they want to believe and what they want to disregard.

Every piece of Scripture we have is given to us by God through the Holy Spirit. Be very aware God will punish all those to fool around with His Word either adding to it or taking away from it.

You have shown your true colours that you ignore certain teachings and twist other to suit your own purposes.

Not everyone has light on everything, all at are different places, and statements like this are harsh. We are here to learn. I am guilty of some of the same things and have learned...

Rapture:

I covered this with tons of scriptures somewhere.

http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/37087-any-insight-revelation-chapter-2-3-a.html

http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/28595-end-times-doctrines.html

http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/33361-mark-beast.html

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Rapture again: common sense approach

It's easy to get caught up in words, Antichrist (Only John mentioned this once) Rapture (A Latin Word for Harpazo, same word we get Harpoon from) counting trumpets, counting going, coming, whatever.

Reading Revelation as if it were in order. (There are a few chapters dedicated to events that had taken place long ago which confuse people)

The end times (Seven year defined period as by the book of Danial, that everyone "almost" agrees on) Speaks of one thing...

God's Wrath "Day of the Lord"

This event is not about Satan, or the big bad Antichrist as Hollywood wants us to believe. It's about God dealing with his creation, and the consequence for rejecting him, or our Lord Jesus.

so..........

All the destruction and mess taking place is not because the devil is doing much of anything.... This is Satan's worse defeat and He is highly ineffective during this time. Keep in mind that those that do follow him are also have a very rough time, and the whole turn of events keep Satan from do much of anything during the time God is dealing with the Earth.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Though defeated, Satan does have a role to play. Through the famine brought by the 3rd seal, a numbering system is issued for those to buy or sell "Mark of the beast" The false prophet seizes this opportunity to get more to follow as people do need to eat. Keep in mind though, The earth is in distress because of what God is doing, not the small operation of what Satan is doing.

Justified by the Blood, Faith, and Grace.

There is no test or trial that we need to go through to prove anything. It has never been by works, or the punishment we have endured.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (Not some suffering by anything else.)
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The Church...........
Is not going through a trying by God, or a time of dealing with the devil and being tested by him... The time of the end is about God, dealing with those that rejected him, and even though people go though the horrible things, the scripture says they still did not get it, or repent. We the Church are smarter than that

The coming of Jesus, Two Events:

Read the scripture with common sense... it's not complicated if you ask the Holy Spirit for help and just read what is written...The Holy Spirit loves to help us understand things, and He is on our side...

Event 2: (In order Matthew gives)

Read Matt 24, the whole chapter.............

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This is our clue as the Church who has been trusted with the Gospel of Christ to when this event is near. The Clue to Israel is the temple being built. As the Church, we need to stay focused on the Spirit of God and things of Christ and the Church.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The Lord is speaking to a specific set of people here. He is dealing with Israel. Unless you or I plan to be in the Judaea area, then no need to be concerned with this.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Once again, He is speaking to those that follow strict adherence to the Sabbath day as a religious tradition. Not those who know and observe God in truth and Spirit.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here we get to start the Seven years of Tribulation.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Make sure your name is written in the lambs book of life!!!

Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

2nd Event Jesus comes:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The Release of the 6th Seal................

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

A couple of things here...... Jesus states that he comes IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation and release of the 6th Seal. When things go dark, the sun goes dark, and the moon goes into a deep blood red (Reflection from the sun) Jesus comes. Nobody will be surprised when this happens. The event of the sun and moon brings the coming of the Lord IMMEDIATELY. Almost everyone on the earth shall Mourn, it's not a happy time. Notice there are no Christians rejoicing at the Lord's return... it's absent for a reason...

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The seventh angelic trumpet sounds the end of the Tribulation period and brings the coming of Jesus. This is not the Trump of God, as God is not a angel. (Rev 10:7)

Event 1, Jesus first comes.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This is a different event from the first event. Noe served God, and Jesus said nobody knows what day or hour this event will take place. In the 2nd event of his coming (1st mentioned in Matthew) or instruction to Israel we know that takes place when the sun goes dark and IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation or seventh Angelic trumpet.

These are different events, giving instruction to two different groups of people's.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Compare with Rev 14:15- taking of people.

Nobody is "Left" at the harvest of the Angels, in this case one group is left, the other is taken.

Paul's instruction to the Church:
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

This group calls Jesus Lord, but are completely surprised by his coming. There will be no surprise at the time of Tribulation, everyone knows it's a perfect seven year period, and will be able to time the events to 3 1/2 years of the Antichrist declaring himself God all through the different trumpets, vials, and seals released. They know when that sun goes dark... it's show time.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Peter gives a description of what many will believe before Jesus comes for the Church, they won't be confused once tribulation starts and more evidence that Jesus comes for the Church before the tribulation.

Summary:

We have two very distinct events... One Immediately after Tribulation where everyone is taken. One event where those that call Jesus Lord are taken "Suddenly." those with there name written in the Book are delivered before destruction comes on the Earth. (Dan 12:1)

I will be happy to clear things up for anyone with more scriptures... or talk about the "HE" that must be taken away..

Jesus Is Lord.

Thiscrosshurts · Jun 16, 2011

Caught up in the clouds to meet him in the air.
The debate seems to hinge on this one verse.

Scripture says with 2 or 3 witnesses let everything be established.
Speaking of witnesses there will be a CLOUD of them.
Perhaps that is the catching up.The dead(born again?)in Christ shall rise first.Could that be the church waking up to who she really is.

There are many references to this cloud of witnesses.
When he returns he will be coming in the clouds.
With all his saints.
In the AIR could refer to Satan's kingdom.He is the prince of the power of the air.
If you study cloud,clouds,witness,witnesses and air this pattern shows continuity.
The verse does not even mention heaven so how can anyone say AIR is referencing heaven.To me that is more than a leap of faith.

Psalms 36:5. Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.(is this saying there is a limit to his faithfulness?Or are they more than just clouds)

Psalms 57:10. For thy mercy is great unto the heavens, and thy truth unto the clouds.(he sure must like water vapor,although I can't fathom why water vapor might need mercy.)

Psalms 68:34. Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.(strength in clouds?)

Psalms 108:4. For thy mercy is great above the heavens: and thy truth reacheth unto the clouds. (ok,I'm getting jealous of these clouds,they are getting the stuff I thought was for the saints)

I have not even made it out of Psalms yet.So I will skip many

Nahum 1:3. The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.(wasn't man made out of dust?)

Matthew 26:64. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.( doesn't scripture say we ARE seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus.)

Does scripture say you have died and are now raised in him?
Does a "born again one" qualify as a new creature IN Christ?
Died with him,raised with him?

WE are the clouds in heaven,his heavenly witnesses.
I have more references if anyone cares to hear them

Hebrews 12:1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

I think Ozell's research is spot on.
It does have to be connected by spiritual discernment but the tools are available if we can truly let the old man die and become a witness to the lamb.

MelodyC · Jun 17, 2011

there is more than one verse!

Paul warns us to not be disturbed by people like Ozell who come around to tell you differently that there has been already a rapture or there will not be a rapture.

2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

This is obviously not the END ot the Tribulation but near the Beginning for the man of lawlessness is the Anti-christ. We are not talking about the Saints coming down with Jesus at the end of the Tribulation here BUT an event that precedes the Anti-Christs revelation.

1TH 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

1TH 5:1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Thiscrosshurts verses 16 and 17 do not in any way suggest those who go up in the air end up in Satan's kingdom or grasp. Read verse 16. It is clear Jesus himself comes down to meet his Saints and in verse 17 says we will then be with Him (refering back to the Lord or Jesus) forever. So I don't know how you ended up with your interpretation only that you don't want to believe in a Rapture.

What is being said here is plain and simple.

In the end you only need to be a Saved Believer to be Raptured.

I am certain of the Rapture and when it comes if you are not right with God you will see it and weep. Because you have relied on other means to come to Christ other than true sincere repentance and the Blood of Christ.

You don't need to believe in the Rapture to be Saved but you do need to have repented and received God's gift of salvation through the Blood of His Son.

EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So if you have understood about your sinfulness and that you deserve death but have come to repentance then you are able to receive Eternal Life through Christ.

Wether you want to believe in a Rapture or NOT doesn't matter! First of all you need to be Saved before you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

For all of us who have come to God not on our own righteous but through Christ's we will be gathered to God as His church holy and acceptable.

So please don't miss the boat. At least make sure you have come to salvation through repentance and Christ's blood.

sojourn4Christ · Jun 17, 2011

one resurrection for the just & one for the unjust

Will there be a rapture?

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left...."

This is one of the places in the Bible people use to support the teaching of a Rapture.

The reckoning is an event spoken of in the New Testament when the LORD returns and "reckoneth" with His servants (also Matthew 18:24). The word is associated with an accounting, or a numbering, and the event is described in Matthew 25 with the parable of the 10 virgins (Matthew 25:19).

...Also, the religious teachers have perpetuated this myth for just as long. Why do I refer to the Rapture as being a myth?

The "rapture" is the doctrine that Christ will return to remove the "church" before the tribulation. First articulated in an occultic writing known as The Apocalypse Of Adam in the Gnostic documents recovered at Nag Hammadi (pre-Christian era), the Saviour figure in this work was Seth. While it is theoretically possible the pre-tribulational heresy was planted in Thessalonica in the first century, and was the error the Apostle Paul sought to correct with his second letter, it was unheard of in scripture and the Christian church until it was first anticipated in an early work in the 17th century by an American pastor named Robert Baxter.

Shortly after Baxter, Spanish Jesuit Immanuel Lacunza hinted at the separation of the return of Christ into two stages as well, but the 15 year old Scottish girl named Margaret MacDonald enunciated a partial rapturism in 1830. It then caught on with a strange British sect run by Edward Irving called the Irvingites. Irish pastor John Darby got it from Irving, and after refining it into what is now called dispensationalism (articulating the unscriptural concepts of separate "dispensations" of God's grace to two separate entities, the church and Israel), he brought it to America in the late 1800's where it spread like wildfire.

Overwhelming documentary evidence exists of a cover-up of the source of the doctrine by early proponents that were embarrassed by the association with MacDonald's "rapture cult" which was, among other things, practicing levitation and other spiritually unsavory practices. Indeed, MacDonald first uttered the concept while in a trance. These revisionists sought to tie the origin to the more respectable John Darby, and have actually been caught changing the dates of Darby's personal correspondence to show he taught the "rapture" before his exposure to MacDonald's work. Those efforts have now been exposed.

Once entrenched in American theological institutions, a new generation of pre-trib oriented American religious leaders carefully suppressed criticism of pre-trib's origins, ousted the post-tribulationists that were previously dominant, and seized control of key prophetic associations including periodicals and prophecy conferences. The British exportation of pre-trib was complete with the Oxford Press publication of the Scofield Reference Bible in 1917 -- a work that thoroughly indoctrinated the next generation of Bible readers into the new system.

The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is thoroughly heretical, and its present manifestation provides the theological justification for the American militaristic posture around the world in general, and in the Middle East in particular. After conquering the church, the rapture cult has become the mainstream foundational premise that is now being refined into the Jewish supremacism destined to empower the Antichrist. In short, this doctrine can send you to the lake of fire.

Two of the better books (now out of print) that can be found in used bookstores are The Church And The Tribulation and First The Antichrist by Dr. Robert Gundry (books that tell the truth of this doctrine don't sell very well, thus they commonly go out of print).

Thiscrosshurts · Jun 17, 2011

Thiscrosshurts verses 16 and 17 do not in any way suggest those who go up in the air end up in Satan's kingdom or grasp. Read verse 16. It is clear Jesus himself comes down to meet his Saints and in verse 17 says we will then be with Him (refering back to the Lord or Jesus) forever. So I don't know how you ended up with your interpretation only that you don't want to believe in a Rapture.

End up in Satan's kingdom???
No,we live in the air now.
Who is the god of this world.
Who is the prince of the power of the air.
We already live in Satan's Kingdom,how else would he have temped Christ with it.
Meeting HIM in the air could well be a cryptic portrayal of
the ultimate Domination of the air realm by Jesus and his cloud of witnesses.
Most of these verses are figurative,cryptic and/or metaphoric.
To try to take it ALL literally is not "rightly dividing the word".

I will admit I'm not that bright because it's difficult to tell what is figurative and what should be taken literally.I don't think it's crystal clear at all.

I would rather argue for evolution than the "left behind" theory.
By the way I think evolution is total bunk.

Does anyone have any answers about my cloud questions?
Why does God like clouds so much that he treats them like saints?
What say ye of this cloud of witnesses?

MelodyC · Jun 17, 2011

Thiscrosshurts said:
End up in Satan's kingdom???
No,we live in the air now.
Who is the god of this world.
Who is the prince of the power of the air.
We already live in Satan's Kingdom,how else would he have temped Christ with it.
Meeting HIM in the air could well be a cryptic portrayal of
the ultimate Domination of the air realm by Jesus and his cloud of witnesses.
Most of these verses are figurative,cryptic and/or metaphoric.
To try to take it ALL literally is not "rightly dividing the word".

I will admit I'm not that bright because it's difficult to tell what is figurative and what should be taken literally.I don't think it's crystal clear at all.

I would rather argue for evolution than the "left behind" theory.
By the way I think evolution is total bunk.

Does anyone have any answers about my cloud questions?
Why does God like clouds so much that he treats them like saints?
What say ye of this cloud of witnesses?

First of all Clouds are inanimate(no on par with mankind/Saints) objects but part of God's creation. God loves all of His creation. When God made everything in Genesis we see God sees all of His creation as GOOD!

Second. You have to understand how to interpret the Bible. Notice verse 1 starts with a THEREFORE. That means what preceeded this verse (chapter 11) is what is being commented on in the rest of the verse.

So in Chapter 12 verse 1 it is talking about what we just read in Chapter 11. Cloud of witnesses refers to all the people(all Old Testament Saints) mentioned in Chapter 11. Not literally clouds but a group of people. Probably referred to as cloud of witnesses because they are with the Lord now. Heaven being at times referred to as Clouds.

HEB 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Lastly God Himself used a cloud when he appeared before Moses and Aaron and the people of Israel. He also appeared as a burning bush.

Not sure why God likes clouds as the Bible doesn't give us that information.

I'm not being arrogant I am simply using basic Bible interpretation taught to us at Church. NOT everything in the Bible is a parable some things are literal or they use some kind of descriptive phrases that you can work out. If I said to you "he has a few screws loose" you understand by that phrase that the person I am referring to is "nuts or crazy". So "cloud of witnesses" is probably a descriptive phrase. We can work this out because of the "therefore" at the start of chapter 12 verse 1 and what was written to us in chapter 11.

I hope this helps you out. And I'm glad to hear you are not some one who believes in Evolution.

David777 · Jun 18, 2011

Go MelodyC.

Your doing very well as usual. I agree with your interpretation.

Thiscrosshurts · Jun 18, 2011

So in Chapter 12 verse 1 it is talking about what we just read in Chapter 11. Cloud of witnesses refers to all the people(all Old Testament Saints) mentioned in Chapter 11. Not literally clouds but a group of people. Probably referred to as cloud of witnesses because they are with the Lord now. Heaven being at times referred to as Clouds.

So we agree there are times where scripture is not literal but more metaphoric.We certainly agree Clouds in this verse could not possibly be literal.I agree with your interpretation of this verse.

What about this one?
Psalms 36:5. Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.
Is this saying there is a limit to his faithfulness? Should I take this one literally?

Psalms 108:4. For thy mercy is great above the heavens: and thy truth reacheth unto the clouds.
We know there is no limit to his truth,so to take this as talking about an inanimate object would certainly clash with sound doctrine.

Job 26:8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
This I can certainly take literally.
However if his word is water and I absorb it I may feel as though I'm going to burst if I don't water the seed that the good sower has sown in the earth.

Job 38:37 Who is wise enough to count the clouds or pour out the water jars of heaven.
There are also water jars in heaven.
We have this "treasure" in earthen vessels
What treasure do we the saints have?I think we have "the word" or figuratively "water" in them.

About the Saints:

These ARE clear and I take them literally:
Eph. 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this
world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions
Col 2:12 Having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus
2 Thes 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-- for our testimony to you was believed.

This says I was basically born dead walking the earth in that death body of sin.Under domination of the Spirit of the AIR.
Then I was buried with him through baptism.(past tense been buried)
I was raised(past tense) with him through faith in the power of God.
Christ is seated at the right hand of God.We are seated with him and in him.
This happened 2000 years ago.The trigger to make it happen for me wasn't around until my time though.
Even though I am with him now,I know he is coming again to be glorified "in his saints".

Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.
Remember Enoch,he was "translated" not "harpazoed/caught up".
Paul was "caught up" and remained on the earth to minister with what he learned and saw in that rapture.

Ive already been harpooned.
In a sense I am two men,one is in his house(concerned with his house)(the flesh).While the other is on a rooftop(looking to the clouds awaiting the arrival of the bridegroom).

I am right now a heavenly citizen.
I am also a wanderer in the land who seeks a heavenly city.

I know this is not a "well crafted" or fine sounding argument like the "left behind" theory but it is what the"living word" speaks to me.
I am not trying to sell anything.
I am just wondering what to do with all these connections.
I got saved in a baptist church so I was also taught the "left behind "
theory.Due diligence just brought to many doubts.
I do await the second coming eagerly but I don't pretend to know how it will manifest.Rather than form a doctrine from doubt I would rather leave it a mystery.

MelodyC · Jun 18, 2011

Thiscrosshurts

I'm no raving lunatic to say that parables are literal.

However I do not spiritualise everything either.

I have a very tight way of interpreting the scriptures. I use established sound practices to interpret the scriptures. Not my own but those used within the Protestant Churches for many years.

I hope having shared some of that with you may have helped you.

I am mainstream Protestant in my Beliefs. Not charismatic, not pentecostal and certainly not New Age Christian which is very liberal. I came from Eastern Orthodoxy. So I have had to take the time and effort to cleraly think through what my Protestant friends were sharing with me and what I have heard preached from the pulpits of various Protestant denominations.

I have now been a Saved Believer for 31 years and I have taken the time and trouble to read the Bible for myself and not just taken in what has been taught through the churches I have attended. So I do not fully agree with the Denomination my husband & I are currently attending.

AC 17:10 As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

The central message of the gospel was even taught in my parents Eastern Orthodox Church. That is salvation through Christ. This is central to the salvation and faith of all Believers.

There is no wiggle room when it comes to this Bible Truth.

However the rest of the Bible is good to agree upon if we can but they are not central to salvation and becoming the children of God so if we do not agree on these other teachings or topics it doesn't mean we are not Saved Believers.

I will agree to disagree without hard feelings any time. Don't treat me with disrespect is all I ask.

Thiscrosshurts · Jun 18, 2011

The central message of the gospel was even taught in my parents Eastern Orthodox Church. That is salvation through Christ. This is central to the salvation and faith of all Believers.

There is no wiggle room when it comes to this Bible Truth.

However the rest of the Bible is good to agree upon if we can but they are not central to salvation and becoming the children of God so if we do not agree on these other teachings or topics it doesn't mean we are not Saved Believers.

I will agree to disagree without hard feelings any time. Don't treat me with disrespect is all I ask.

On this we defiantly agree.I would venture to say we would agree on most of the weightier matters involving salvation,love,faith,hope,righteousness and how we should treat others.

ozell · Jul 9, 2011

just-a-servant said:
I've read your thread and the answers to your posts. While I'm not a pre-trib rapture believer, I believe the scriptures do tell of a rapture-like event occurring prior to the promised "Day of Wrath."

1 Thes 4:13-18
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Not only does this scripture speak of a "catching away," it tells us where we will be caught away to: ". . . in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." This may not seem significant but it does answer your question about "Where are we going?"

Further, I would point out the scripture is again clear as to where we will go:

John 14:1-4
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Where "My father's house" is is of little concern to me. The fact He is preparing a room for me is the joy I have. I take great comfort in knowing He is doing that IN ADVANCE of my arrival. He knows me!

My third and final objective of this response is to ask the question, "What's your point?" You've raised an interesting question but it's significance to biblical teaching and edification to the body of Christ is pointless. It's a mere exercise in intellectual gymnastics; much like arguing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

my point is that the rapture is not biblical nor does it means catching away or caught up.

the proper word used in the bible is 1st resurrection.

if the bible call for a 1st resurrection there can be nothing before 1st so how can you have a rapture of the people before the 1st resurrection?

ozell · Jul 9, 2011

forum

sorry for the delay my computer was down for awhile and I lost the site.

please forgive me for not responding to your posts and thank you for doing so.

ozell · Jul 9, 2011

MelodyC said:
Good post Just-a Servant!

I agree. I can't understand what the point of this useless argument when it is plain in the scriptures there will be a Rapture or "a catching up of the Saints in the clouds with Jesus". I can say though that it doesn't Edify the Body of Christ but only causes debate and argument and division.

Paul outlines the proper way one should teach and encourage and that which is not godly.

It is easy for someone to just discredit me (I'm not that good an apologist) but when they debate and argue against God's Word that is a different kettle of fish.

I might be an easy opponent to discard through fine sounding debate but at least I know the Word of God and I'm not easily fooled.

let me ask you this

what events raises the dead first , the 1st resurrection or the rapture?

ozell · Jul 9, 2011

romans116 said:
1 Thes 4:13-18
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

John 14:1-4
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

these scriptures clearly say we will be with Him. Your question asked if there is going to be a rapture. Clearly the word "rapture" is not in the bible. But lets take another approach at this brother. We use the word love in many different ways. I believe there is no love greater than a man that lays his life down for his friends. (John 15:13) Hello can be used in different ways, we can say whats up? supp? whats poppin? whats Happen? ect ect. Rapture is just a modern day use of a word. Another thing. Webster dictionary was created by man. A secular world. A man that probably didnt know Christ. even if there are other words in the dictionary relating to Christ, still there are are a lot of words not put in the dictionary. Im sure sup, poppin, happenen are not in the dictionary as other words for hello. for the rapture its the same thing..

And to be honest brother. It sounds like you are trying to disprove this with the Word of God. Do not be fooled, or deceived the Word of God is truth. and the scriptures above are clear. It would be wise for you to understand this and to quit nit picking. its like math 2+2+4 Its CRYSTAL CLEAR! We as Christians are to talk about this and not argue. if someone proves you wrong. accept it and move on. not one, but a few of us have showed you these scriptures and it is evident. Webster dictionary is NOT the word of God. The bible is. SO for you to go by it is irrelevant and your point is no longer valid.

Thank you brother.
Praying for your understanding

ALSO!! one more thing. PRAY TO THE ONE THAT WROTE IT!!! GOD!!!!ask Him to open your eyes, heart, mind, soul and you will have the answer. our GOd is faithful!
God Bless

~ginah

thank you for responding

rapture is not in the bible so why use it? God never used it.

God does use the word resurrection

have you ever heard a preacher predicting the resurrection?

always the rapture and guess what they are right because the word means emotions and ecstasy.

as for the word love this is a totally different word but God has his meaning of the word which we can discuss another day.

may I ask you this

is the dead raised first in the resurrection or the rapture?

ozell · Jul 9, 2011

God gave us the word RESURRECTION

again look at the webster dictionary meaning of the word rapture

Definition of RAPTURE

1: an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion

2a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion

b : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things

Now lets look at the webster definiton of the word resurrection

Definition of RESURRECTION

1 a : the rising of Christ from the dead

b : the rising again to life of all the human dead before the final judgment

c : the state of one risen from the dead

ozell · Jul 9, 2011

lets see if Webster lines up with the word of God

webster says

Definition of RESURRECTION

1 a : the rising of Christ from the dead

b : the rising again to life of all the human dead before the final judgment

c : the state of one risen from the dead

Jesus says

he will raise us up at the last day

john 6v39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11v24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

it seems as though that last day and resurrection goes together

ozell · Jul 9, 2011

lets pretend that rapture means caught up are we caught up on the last day?

Is the rapture the last day?
is caught up and raised the same thing
is rapture and raised the same thing.

lets look at webster meaning of rapture and see it its fits Jesus raising us up at the last day

Jesus said

john 6v39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11
24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day

webster said

the meaning of rapture
1: an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion

2a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion

b : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things

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