You honestly think this is addressing the "if"? Come on Rojo give us some credit.
Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?
- Thread starter Seeker Of Jesus
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You honestly think this is addressing the "if"? Come on Rojo give us some credit.
The problem you are encountering is that the burden of proof rests with you. Scripture very explicitly states that one who is saved is secure in his salvation. Scripture also explicitly states that one who is saved will persevere in their faith and works. Scripture also explicitly states that it is God alone who is preserving His Elect.
Your area of contention (and primary argument) resides in "if's" and other subtle words. None of them are explicit. In fact, they are only implicit when vague verses are used in an attempt to support the stance. Nowhere does the Bible say that one can lose salvation. On the flip side, in many places, it states that one is secure in his salvation.
Your burden is finding something in Scripture that explicitly states that one can lose his salvation. If you cannot find this, we are compelled to go with the explicit statements that one is secure. This would then lead us to interpret the vague verses based on those explicit verses which have already been accepted.
I agree with neither theory, Calvinism nor Arminianism, OSAS nor NOSAS. I find error in both. How can you keep or lose something that you don't possess because it hasn't been given yet?
The writer of Hebrews said,
so also Christ died only once as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again but not to deal with our sins again. This time he will bring salvation to all those who are eagerly waiting for him. Hebrews 9:28
Paul said,
We can rejoice, too, when we run into problems and trials, for we know that they are good for us—they help us learn to endure. And endurance develops strength of character in us, and character strengthens our confident expectation of salvation. Romans 5:3&4
Peter said,
All honor to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for it is by his boundless mercy that God has given us the privilege of being born again. Now we live with a wonderful expectation because Jesus Christ rose again from the dead. For God has reserved a priceless inheritance for his children. It is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay. And God, in his mighty power, will protect you until you receive this salvation, because you are trusting him. It will be revealed on the last day for all to see. 1Pet. 1:3-5
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RJ
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To be out of the body, means to be in the Spirit with the Lord!
Salvation is described in many ways in Scripture. It is said to be past, present, and future. To cling to just one (in your case, you are clinging to future tense) is an erroneous view. In the same way, to say it is only past tense or only present tense in also wrong. The only way to reconcile the 3 tenses is to find out how they all work in perfect harmony.
Ephesians 2:8a said:
For instance, the above verse clearly states that we have already been saved. However, the perfect tense used tells us the author meant, while we are already saved, there are ongoing effects. Salvation is a completed act. There is nothing left to accomplish nor is there anything left to be given. It is finished. However, the effects of this salvation are ongoing in the life of the believer such as in the form of continual sanctification until the time of glorification. These are where the other 2 tenses come in and Ephesians 2:8, while speaking in the past tense, ties them all in perfectly.
We are already saved. It is something that already belongs to us. We have been saved already. During our Christian walk, we are continually being saved from this world and from the effects of sin in the form of the above mentioned sanctification. In the end, upon the coming of the perfect, we will be saved once again (in the form of glorification) from the trappings of this world as we enter into our rest with the Father.
Ephesians 2:5 said:
Again, salvation IS a completed act. There is no denying this. However, there is much more to this.
PernellRodocker
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My Thoughts on This
As I ponder the body of Christ and what separates families, I must at least follow the example of what Christ did with the disciples... He stayed with them until He thought they were ready to carry on His message... which is?
1. If you have seen me you have seen the Father...
2. Meet the needs of the poor, widows, naked, etc...
3. Go into all the world with His message of... etc...
My thoughts are as follows...
Jesus said for us to be like Him...
He said to help others and to:
Carry the message to the world...
I can't help but think that this means to follow His example until "death us do depart"... He lived and moved as He saw His Father and did as His Father told Him too... then He left the disciples...
After which we know He sent the Spirit as our teacher, helper, etc..
Thus, I must think that to walk as He walked and follow the example He set for us then there are many "doctrinal issues" that only seem to separate the body from the main objective...
Thus in part I must conclude that one would never lose salvation if one followed as Jesus taught...
But for those of you that think about the loss of salvation let me interject the thoughts of us walking away from God and as the scripture speaks of better to have never known then to have known and walked away from... (2 Peter 2:11-22)
PR
As I ponder the body of Christ and what separates families, I must at least follow the example of what Christ did with the disciples... He stayed with them until He thought they were ready to carry on His message... which is?
1. If you have seen me you have seen the Father...
2. Meet the needs of the poor, widows, naked, etc...
3. Go into all the world with His message of... etc...
My thoughts are as follows...
Jesus said for us to be like Him...
He said to help others and to:
Carry the message to the world...
I can't help but think that this means to follow His example until "death us do depart"... He lived and moved as He saw His Father and did as His Father told Him too... then He left the disciples...
After which we know He sent the Spirit as our teacher, helper, etc..
Thus, I must think that to walk as He walked and follow the example He set for us then there are many "doctrinal issues" that only seem to separate the body from the main objective...
Thus in part I must conclude that one would never lose salvation if one followed as Jesus taught...
But for those of you that think about the loss of salvation let me interject the thoughts of us walking away from God and as the scripture speaks of better to have never known then to have known and walked away from... (2 Peter 2:11-22)
PR
Regarding this statement, there are various levels of knowledge. However, not all types of knowledge equate to faith. The same can be said regarding believe. Even the demons believe (James 2:19) but this does not mean they have faith. Scripture tells us that all men are accountable if for no other reason than the fact that God has revealed himself creation (Romans 1:20). They do not have faith and may not even have belief but they do have a level of knowledge. If this person is held accountable, how much more so a person who HAS heard the gospel message, processed it in their mind, and still rejected it. In fact, if one is in this latter category, he would be considered an apostate; one who never had true faith but rejected the Truth despite having knowledge of what he was rejecting. And we all know how Scripture describes apostates.
Yo.
Hello Mr Rojocolo, hope your well.
I was reading some of your previous posts.
You said,
"They do not have faith and may not even have belief but they do have a level of knowledge."
I am not sure that the scripture states your view.
Read the following,
"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away,..." (NASB 6:4-6)
Please explain Mr Rojocolo where you obtained "level of knowledge"
this is definitely not what is written in Hebrews chapter 6.
Hello Mr Rojocolo, hope your well.
I was reading some of your previous posts.
You said,
"They do not have faith and may not even have belief but they do have a level of knowledge."
I am not sure that the scripture states your view.
Read the following,
"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away,..." (NASB 6:4-6)
Please explain Mr Rojocolo where you obtained "level of knowledge"
this is definitely not what is written in Hebrews chapter 6.
Has you ever thought that it is your opinions that are erroneous?
Take for instance your statement here which I have put in bold, you refer to "the perfect" as something that comes in the end, yet when the subject of spiritual gifts is addressed you say that "the perfect" has already come. I appreciate your zeal and understand that you are young in the Lord but you need to seek God and employ humility then maybe you will recognize that there is much to learn.:wink:
Never once have I declared the perfect has already come. The perfect will not come until it is all over. I think I know what you are thinking of regarding the gifts. However, if it is what I am thinking of, you are remembering it incorrectly. I simply said that by the coming of the perfect, tongues will have already ceased to exist whereas it is the perfect which will do away with knowledge and prophecy. I never said the perfect has already come nor could I ever, in good conscience, declare such a thing.
Either way, your reply is dancing around the issue at hand by deflecting it. You cannot possibly say salvation has not come when Scripture states that it has. Instead, you must look for the harmony between past, present, and future tense. Just remember the Greek has more tenses than English so you have to go a bit further than a standard English translation.
Nor can you claim to possess something that scriptures state has not been given yet. Go back to the speaking in tongues thread and review your posts and while your there go ahead and post your scriptural proof that the the gifts have ceased, I believe I have given you ample time to gather your scriptures to support your opinion. See you there Rojo.:wink:
Regarding the tongues thread, I looked. I was the last one to really post anything substantial. I have also posted many times in there the reasons why they have ceased. But that is not what this thread is about.
This appears to be our dilemma. You not only claim that Scripture states salvation is for the future. You are also claiming that salvation states it has not yet been given. I can agree with you on the former. The latter, not so much.
Again, Scripture very clearly states salvation has already been given in the past tense. It also clearly states that salvation is continually being given in the present tense. Lastly, it also clearly states salvation will be given in the future tense. This appears to present quite the quandary. How can salvation possibly be all three at the same time. This goes back to that particular tense in the Greek called the perfect tense. The perfect tense was a completed act that continues on. Ephesians 2:8 uses this tense. Salvation was indeed given already. Even you cannot deny this is what Ephesians 2:8 and Ephesians 2:5 are saying. Now you need to reconcile it with the other tenses. It can't originate in the past, originate in the present, and originate in the future. The oldest tense has to be the origin and everything thereafter is the effect.
We need to ask ? What is salvation? what is eternal life?
It a new Creature Than CANNOT SIN!
We Do not dump one scripture ,too accept another! All scriptures are Truth! We must search to see How they All are Truth and work together to form Truth!
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
These scriptures are 100% TRUTH!
As well as any that might appear to be different! The Only question is how do others agree with these?
that the problem for some?
they can not put them together to see the Truth!
No scripture you could find can make these a lie!
It is the understanding that counts! Not our miss understanding!
The Elect and called are Different ! All the Elect were Called first then became the Elect! all the called Do not become the Elect !
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
It a new Creature Than CANNOT SIN!
We Do not dump one scripture ,too accept another! All scriptures are Truth! We must search to see How they All are Truth and work together to form Truth!
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
These scriptures are 100% TRUTH!
As well as any that might appear to be different! The Only question is how do others agree with these?
that the problem for some?
they can not put them together to see the Truth!
No scripture you could find can make these a lie!
It is the understanding that counts! Not our miss understanding!
The Elect and called are Different ! All the Elect were Called first then became the Elect! all the called Do not become the Elect !
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
B-A-C
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- Dec 18, 2008
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Once saved - always saved. This is perhaps one of the greatest dividing factors in the Church today.
There are Churches such as the Unitarians that believe everyone is saved no matter what. You don’t have to believe in God or Jesus or anything. Jesus died for everyone, so everyone is saved no matter what. (Unity Church)
Heb 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"
Yes God will never leave us. But can we leave him? There’s an old saying that says “If you feel far from God, guess who moved!” Keep in mind, many divorces are also one sided, both the husband and the wife do not want it, but it only takes one of them to make the divorce happen.
Can we backslide?
The word “backsliding” appears in the King James 12 times, and only in the Old Testament, not at all in the New Testament.
Jer. 3:6, 8, 11, 12, 14, 22
Jer 8:5
Jer 31:22
Jer 49:4
Hos 4:16
Hos 11:7
Hos 14:4
Most believe that the tale of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) is a tale of backsliding because the son was not coming home for the first time: He was coming back home after leaving. To paraphrase, the son was with the father, left the father, and then came back to the father.
Luk 15:11 And He said, "A man had two sons.
Luk 15:12 "The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.' So he divided his wealth between them.
Luk 15:13 "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.
Luk 15:14 "Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished.
Luk 15:15 "So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
Luk 15:16 "And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.
Luk 15:17 "But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!
Luk 15:18 'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
Luk 15:19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'
Luk 15:20 "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
Luk 15:22 "But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;
Luk 15:23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
Luk 15:24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
Luk 15:25 "Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing.
Luk 15:26 "And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be.
Luk 15:27 "And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.'
Luk 15:28 "But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him.
Luk 15:29 "But he answered and said to his father, 'Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends;
Luk 15:30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.'
Luk 15:31 "And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours.
Luk 15:32 'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"
Jesus taught a lot in parables (stories). The only place that he actually explained what the parable meant was the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13:3-8 is the parable itself. It is also found in Mark 4:3-8 and in Luke 8:5-8.
Mat 13:3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;
Mat 13:4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
Mat 13:5 "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
Mat 13:6 "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 "Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
Mat 13:8 "And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
Mat 13:9 "He who has ears, let him hear."
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Mat 13:11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
The explanation
Mat 13:18 "Hear then the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
Mat 13:20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Mat 13:22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
Verse 19 is about the people who never believed in the first place because they did not understand.
Verses 20 and 21 are about people who believed for a little while and then quit believing.
Verse 22 is also about people who believed and then for various reasons quit believing.
Verse 23 is about people who never did backslide (not everyone backslides!) and who continue to believe.
In Romans 11, verse 20 we see that people can be “broken off” because of unbelief.
In verse 23 even though they were broken off, they believed again, thus God was able to “graft them in again.”
Rom 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
A person cannot be something “again” for the first time. They would have had to be that something once already in order to be it “again.”
Here the Bible says that someone can quit being what they were. In other words you can be a Christian (“salt”) and you can quit being a Christian (losing your “saltiness”)
Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
1Tim 1:19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
1Ti 5:15 for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
In the verses below, how would they know it’s a “different” gospel unless they had already heard the gospel in the first place?
Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Apparently just because your name was written in the book of life, it doesn’t mean it will always stay there forever, it can be removed.
Psal 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Could it be, there really is such a thing as going too far? Even for those who have already been used by God and have accomplished some of his work? A common argument is “well they were never saved in the first place”.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
2Jo 1:11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
Yes there is grace. Thank God for that.
Mat 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22 Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Phi 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Having said all of this, do I think it happens often? No. I think it is VERY difficult for this to happen, but I do think it is possible.
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
As I said at the beginning, he will never leave or forsake us, but can we leave and forsake him?
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Can we “fall way” from something we never had in the first place?
Luk 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Notice all 5 of the verses above say we are saved by what we believe in, or have faith in. Not by what we do. So how then, is it possible to get "unsaved" by what we do? We can't. We can't sin so much that we lose our salvation. (After all we weren't saved by works in the first place)
However we can sin so much that we lose our faith. (1Tim 4:11 and the parable of the sower) and once we lose our faith.. well... read those 5 verses again.
Look at Peter, he denied Christ 3 times in 1 day (after he was a believer) David committed an affair and had the womans' husband killed, Paul said he does the things he shouldn't do and doesn't do the things he know's he should do. (Romans 7)
So this woman goes back to prostitution, does she lose her salvation? Did Rahab the Harlot lose hers? How about Hosea's wife Gomer (the whole story is an allegory of Hosea as God and Gomer as Israel and how they were unfaithful to their husbands). I think the grace of God allows for mistakes after we become Christians (or believers). But you can sin so much that your faith starts to slip..
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
The word "exchanged" is key here. If you go to a store, and almost buy some pants, and never purchase them and never take them home,
well they were never yours, so you can't exchange them. However if you buy them, and leave the store with them, now you OWN them.
You can take them back later and exchange them. So this verse doesn't mean that they never accepted it, it means they accepted it as truth, even if it was for a very short while, and then "exchanged" it for something else.
Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
No.. no one is more powerful than God, not even Satan himself can snatch someone out of Jesus's hand.
But could it be, that we are free leave on our own accord?
There are Churches such as the Unitarians that believe everyone is saved no matter what. You don’t have to believe in God or Jesus or anything. Jesus died for everyone, so everyone is saved no matter what. (Unity Church)
Heb 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"
Yes God will never leave us. But can we leave him? There’s an old saying that says “If you feel far from God, guess who moved!” Keep in mind, many divorces are also one sided, both the husband and the wife do not want it, but it only takes one of them to make the divorce happen.
Can we backslide?
The word “backsliding” appears in the King James 12 times, and only in the Old Testament, not at all in the New Testament.
Jer. 3:6, 8, 11, 12, 14, 22
Jer 8:5
Jer 31:22
Jer 49:4
Hos 4:16
Hos 11:7
Hos 14:4
Most believe that the tale of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) is a tale of backsliding because the son was not coming home for the first time: He was coming back home after leaving. To paraphrase, the son was with the father, left the father, and then came back to the father.
Luk 15:11 And He said, "A man had two sons.
Luk 15:12 "The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.' So he divided his wealth between them.
Luk 15:13 "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.
Luk 15:14 "Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished.
Luk 15:15 "So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
Luk 15:16 "And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.
Luk 15:17 "But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!
Luk 15:18 'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
Luk 15:19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'
Luk 15:20 "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
Luk 15:22 "But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;
Luk 15:23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
Luk 15:24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
Luk 15:25 "Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing.
Luk 15:26 "And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be.
Luk 15:27 "And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.'
Luk 15:28 "But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him.
Luk 15:29 "But he answered and said to his father, 'Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends;
Luk 15:30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.'
Luk 15:31 "And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours.
Luk 15:32 'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"
Jesus taught a lot in parables (stories). The only place that he actually explained what the parable meant was the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13:3-8 is the parable itself. It is also found in Mark 4:3-8 and in Luke 8:5-8.
Mat 13:3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;
Mat 13:4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
Mat 13:5 "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
Mat 13:6 "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 "Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
Mat 13:8 "And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
Mat 13:9 "He who has ears, let him hear."
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Mat 13:11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
The explanation
Mat 13:18 "Hear then the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
Mat 13:20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Mat 13:22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
Verse 19 is about the people who never believed in the first place because they did not understand.
Verses 20 and 21 are about people who believed for a little while and then quit believing.
Verse 22 is also about people who believed and then for various reasons quit believing.
Verse 23 is about people who never did backslide (not everyone backslides!) and who continue to believe.
In Romans 11, verse 20 we see that people can be “broken off” because of unbelief.
In verse 23 even though they were broken off, they believed again, thus God was able to “graft them in again.”
Rom 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
A person cannot be something “again” for the first time. They would have had to be that something once already in order to be it “again.”
Here the Bible says that someone can quit being what they were. In other words you can be a Christian (“salt”) and you can quit being a Christian (losing your “saltiness”)
Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
1Tim 1:19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
1Ti 5:15 for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
In the verses below, how would they know it’s a “different” gospel unless they had already heard the gospel in the first place?
Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Apparently just because your name was written in the book of life, it doesn’t mean it will always stay there forever, it can be removed.
Psal 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Could it be, there really is such a thing as going too far? Even for those who have already been used by God and have accomplished some of his work? A common argument is “well they were never saved in the first place”.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
2Jo 1:11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
Yes there is grace. Thank God for that.
Mat 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22 Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Phi 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Having said all of this, do I think it happens often? No. I think it is VERY difficult for this to happen, but I do think it is possible.
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
As I said at the beginning, he will never leave or forsake us, but can we leave and forsake him?
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Can we “fall way” from something we never had in the first place?
Luk 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Notice all 5 of the verses above say we are saved by what we believe in, or have faith in. Not by what we do. So how then, is it possible to get "unsaved" by what we do? We can't. We can't sin so much that we lose our salvation. (After all we weren't saved by works in the first place)
However we can sin so much that we lose our faith. (1Tim 4:11 and the parable of the sower) and once we lose our faith.. well... read those 5 verses again.
Look at Peter, he denied Christ 3 times in 1 day (after he was a believer) David committed an affair and had the womans' husband killed, Paul said he does the things he shouldn't do and doesn't do the things he know's he should do. (Romans 7)
So this woman goes back to prostitution, does she lose her salvation? Did Rahab the Harlot lose hers? How about Hosea's wife Gomer (the whole story is an allegory of Hosea as God and Gomer as Israel and how they were unfaithful to their husbands). I think the grace of God allows for mistakes after we become Christians (or believers). But you can sin so much that your faith starts to slip..
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
The word "exchanged" is key here. If you go to a store, and almost buy some pants, and never purchase them and never take them home,
well they were never yours, so you can't exchange them. However if you buy them, and leave the store with them, now you OWN them.
You can take them back later and exchange them. So this verse doesn't mean that they never accepted it, it means they accepted it as truth, even if it was for a very short while, and then "exchanged" it for something else.
Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
No.. no one is more powerful than God, not even Satan himself can snatch someone out of Jesus's hand.
But could it be, that we are free leave on our own accord?
RJ
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Not at all.
I am simply saying that, as a Christian, when you die, to be out of the body is to be totally,completely and instantly in the Spirit with the Lord.
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Dear B-A-C.
Your earlier post regarding the discussion topic. Seemed to have the scent of someone who had dabbled with this topic before.
Your most recent post confirmed this. I must say I read your entire
post. I must commend you, a very solid argument.
You said,
"1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Can we “fall way” from something we never had in the first place?"
This is the very point, a person can fall away from Jesus.
This is what the scripture states. End of argument?
Calvinists cannot accept this, the ones that fall away were
not true christians they will say. They were not predestined. Calvinists interpret from a single assumption, God's will. They can and do distort the meaning of a verse in order to reflect the perfect will of God.
It specifically states "some will fall away". This should be the end
of the debate. But, we are not dealing with what the scripture really
says are we. No, Systematic Calvinist Theology will reply
they fell away because they never were christians in the first place.
What a complex problem Calvinism is. Its error is in the initial assumption of God's all prevailing will. Mankind is seriously fallen, unable to accept salvation. God's will is necessary to chose the elect.
This is in fact not what the Bible states.
Your earlier post regarding the discussion topic. Seemed to have the scent of someone who had dabbled with this topic before.
Your most recent post confirmed this. I must say I read your entire
post. I must commend you, a very solid argument.
You said,
"1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Can we “fall way” from something we never had in the first place?"
This is the very point, a person can fall away from Jesus.
This is what the scripture states. End of argument?
Calvinists cannot accept this, the ones that fall away were
not true christians they will say. They were not predestined. Calvinists interpret from a single assumption, God's will. They can and do distort the meaning of a verse in order to reflect the perfect will of God.
It specifically states "some will fall away". This should be the end
of the debate. But, we are not dealing with what the scripture really
says are we. No, Systematic Calvinist Theology will reply
they fell away because they never were christians in the first place.
What a complex problem Calvinism is. Its error is in the initial assumption of God's all prevailing will. Mankind is seriously fallen, unable to accept salvation. God's will is necessary to chose the elect.
This is in fact not what the Bible states.
All those BORN of God , were once called! All the called Do not become the Elect!
The called Hear The LORD just as the Elect do! except , the elect have His Spirit dwelling in there Spirit!
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
The called Hear The LORD just as the Elect do! except , the elect have His Spirit dwelling in there Spirit!
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
RJ
Active
- Joined
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- 4,080
Exactly!
This is what Paul is saying in Hebrews 6:4.
He is talking to the saved and about the unsaved.
The the people, he was referring to, though they acted and talked like believers, were not. This is the same today. Churches are full of individuals that are referred to as Christians but I am sure a lot are not saved.
Yes, Paul is saying here, that it is impossible to "Fall Away" from a place that you have never been.
Jesus told Nicodemus that ,to be save, you must have two births, one from your parents (physical) and one of the Spirit (Holy Spirit). The commonality of any birth, is that there is no such thing as "Un-Birth".
You can no more be un-born from the Spirit as you can be un-born your parents.
I think you guys are making it more complicated than it needs to be.
It's like someone said "God won't walk away from us, but we can walk away from God".
When we stop being open to God's leadings and teachings in the Word, then we are already moving away from him. God knows where he is going and he's on the move. We have to stay with him if we want to be close to him, instead of wandering off in our own selfish directions.
It's like someone said "God won't walk away from us, but we can walk away from God".
When we stop being open to God's leadings and teachings in the Word, then we are already moving away from him. God knows where he is going and he's on the move. We have to stay with him if we want to be close to him, instead of wandering off in our own selfish directions.
