Were Adam & Eve meant to live in the Garden of Eden....

El Hombre viejo · Dec 2, 2010

stephen said:
Thay partook of what was forbidden because they were tempted.......they yeilded to the temptation brought by the master of the art of temptation. 'The Serpent,the Devil,and Satan'

God "placed" them there at the onset of human life.

The word 'Eden' seems to mean a delightful residence. I am sure it was. This si just like Jesus. He gives every opportunity for us to be blessed but somehow we make a mess, thinking we know better.

Stay blessed

Its all attitudes and choices isn't it?

JDFree · Dec 3, 2010

Doc said:
JD, I will begin by saying that I accept your apology, such as it is. I certainly understand taking a passionate position for what one believes. However, I also understand that what is one man’s “heresy” is another man’s “faith.” Many of Jesus’ day thought Him to be a heretic because His doctrine didn’t line up with the party line. The same can be said of Martin Luther. And many others. Little has changed today. Sometimes when men mature in the faith they begin to realize that what they once discounted as error they grow to understand is truth. When a man hasn’t learned the need to question what he has been taught, he actually has learned very little of anything. Wisdom prevailing, it is always better to refrain from playing the heresy card, and feeling empowered to attack another believer until you know you have ALL OF THE FACTS AND DATA TO COME TO A SPIRIT LED CONCLUSION. At the age of 64, and having studied “Christianity” all of my life from age 7 and up, I find few folks really have a clue about WHAT IS REALLY TRUE.

JD, I do understand your reluctance to answer some of my questions. The enigma for me is if we aren’t going to answer one another’s questions, what is the point in the dialogue to begin with? But I’ll persevere onward.

It appears I may have confused you regarding my questions on the SERPENT - another unanswered question - other than to admit that the term serpent shows up in a number of places in scripture. What you didn’t answer was this: WHEN JESUS SAID TO BE WISE AS A SERPENT… WAS HIS INSTRUCTION TO BE AS WISE AS SATAN? You didn’t answer that JD, and I certainly understand you don’t have to.

The other potential error in your apparent method of interpretation of scripture - I assume you use the Analogy of Faith principle? - is that for some reason you have decided that the serpent in Genesis 3:1 is a cross reference to the serpent in Revelation 12:9. And that’s because WHY? This a common error when people try to prove points pulling a number of verses together out of context and historical setting to teach a certain position. People do this kind of thing all the time with the two white horse riders in the Book of Revelation, as well as hundreds of other Biblical topics.

Now, I will be brief, but let’s look closely at the Hebrew word for serpent in Genesis 3:1. It is “Nachash” which means a number of things such as a hissing creature - a serpent - a snake - the constellation of the dragon as in Job 26:13 - but also has a positive understanding, as you mentioned, including healing from the bite of a venomous snake when looking at the bronze serpent - a likeness to Jesus Christ providing healing as in John 3:14 and John 12:32 - and the serpent on the pole has been used extensively throughout the medical profession as a symbol of healing. So, upon what basis do you find your conclusion that the serpent of Genesis 3 is the devil of Revelation 12? What someone taught you? The cross references in your study bible? Your study bible notes? Your personal opinion? The statement of faith for your denomination? You catechism? WHAT?

So to summarize, my two questions are: (1) What SERPENT was Jesus referring to when He told us to be WISE AS SERPENTS and (2) on what basis have you decided that the SERPENT of Genesis 3:1 is the SERPENT of Revelation 12:9?

Now, the matter of Genesis 3:22. I’m not sure if this part of my question you also wish to not answer, but I’ll ask just for clarification. WHY DID ADAM AND EVE NEED TO HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF EVIL TO BE LIKE GOD? Additionally, if it was God’s plan to keep Adam and Eve from evil, why did He allow the serpent (your devil) to present himself to them? I mean God placed Cherubim at the gates of the Garden to prevent man from re-entering, why didn’t He keep the serpent out of the Garden if he were the purveyor EVIL? Could GOD not stop him? Or, did God want him there?

Now for the sake of the economy of time, let’s just take a brief look at the differences between the two accounts of creation. REMEMBER, your laws of logic JD. One of the first laws of logic is TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME. The idea that one account is a more narrow view and the second is a broader view may be interesting for 3rd grade Sunday School class, but let’s see if it is really founded.

Genesis 1:26 - MAN was made in the likeness of God (Adam and Eve were not - they were not like God until later - Genesis 3:22) TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.

Genesis 1:26 - MAN was created to have dominion over all the earth and over every living creature - NOT SO in Genesis 2:15, where Adam is a gardener, a laborer if you will. TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.

Genesis 1:27 - God CREATED MAN - Hebrew “Bara” which means to bring into existence or initiate - NOT SO in Genesis 2:7, where God FORMED MAN - Hebrew “Yatsar” which means to squeeze into shape like a potter does a vessel of clay working with material already created. TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.

In Genesis 1:27 - God created MAN male & female - NOT SO in Genesis 2, as man was formed in verse 7 and woman was formed in verse 22. Actually the Hebrew word for MADE in verse 22 is “Banah” which means to build or re-build, not to bring out of nothing. TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.

In Genesis 2:16 the Lord commanded the MAN not to eat of the tree…BUT in Genesis 1:27 God said to THEM (man and woman) they were to have dominion and could eat EVERYTHING with no restrictions! TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.

In Genesis 2:18 MAN is alone, and in Genesis 1:27 man is with his wife and is receiving instruction and talking TOGETHER with God. TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.

This should suffice for the time being.

By the way, none of this troubles me, I find the BIBLE TO BE THE MOST FASCINATING BOOK ON EARTH!

Doc

Believe me, Doc, had I seen your thread on the Fatal Error and your claims & teachings there I NEVER would have apologized! Just like your babblings above, pretty much total error in comprehension & understanding of what the Word of God truly teaches. I'm even amazed at how little of the most basic of understandings you possess. I say that unkindly because you put yourself forward as a wise teacher, where in fact you cannot begin to grasp even the basics because of your gross perversions of what Scripture says.

One of the primary reasons I did not answer your questions is because they are designed to be a trap, like 'Have you stopped beating your wife?' Any answer is a foot in the door for more of your heresies to pour in. Like the idiotic question of whether Jesus is counselling us to be as wise as Satan. It should be seen that whatever answer you were hoping for, the real answer is that Satan's wisdom was enough to deceive you! By that it is seen that you missed the entire point and philosophical concept of the statement of Jesus, which is precisely what He was counseling against.

Your every suggestion and every question is specifically designed to make people, particularly Christians, QUESTION the fundamentals of Christianity, DOUBT the veracity of the Bible, and REFUTE the things that God has said there! You spout out questions while your theology, if it can be called that, is deplorable in Light of Scripture and basic fundamental understanding of the Word, Jesus, Salvation, God, eternal life and everything else you've mentioned.

You have been deceived and insist on passing on that inheritance of deceit. It's a pity really. I hereby publicly retract my apology.

As to questions unanswered, I'm STILL waiting for you to answer my FIRST questions in that heretical Fatal Error thread. Also waiting for you to tell those here just where your doctrine came from, like my question of whether it's all related to various Jehovah's Witness or offshoots, or Charles Taze Russel, or Rutherford etc.??? Got something to hide there?
JDFree

JDFree · Dec 3, 2010

Jaareshiah said:
Many feel that the word "day" (Hebrew yohm; Greek, he·me´ra ) applies only to a "day" of 24 hours and has an unused root meaning of "hot". However, the usage of the word "day" extends far beyond that and is used in a literal and in a figurative or even symbolic sense. That the word "day" means more than just the time during sunlight (a solar day) is easily apparent from Genesis 2:4, which the six "creative" days are seen as one "day": "This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day (Hebrew yohm ) that Jehovah God made earth and heaven."

In the very account of creation we have “day” used to refer to three different periods of time. “Day” is used to refer to the daylight hours, as when we read: “God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.” It is used to refer to both day and night, as when we read: “There came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.” And “day” is also used to refer to the entire time period involved in creation of the heavens and the earth: “This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.”(Gen. 1:5; 2:4)

Jesus used the word "day" to express a future time period, not just "during sunlight" or a solar day, for he said: "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ "(Matt 7:21, 22)

However, regarding the meaning of a "creative" day, the Genesis account helps one to see that it is far more than just a solar day of 24 hours. Genesis 2:2, 3 says that "by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making."

The expression "proceeded to rest "( Hebrew verb , wai·yish·both´), is in the imperfect state denoting incomplete or continuous action, or action in progress. Hence, the seventh day was incomplete at the time of Moses writing down the book of Genesis in 1513 B.C.E. The seventh day was still in progress. The apostle Paul brought to our attention that it was still in progress, incomplete, in his "day", when he wrote the book of Hebrews in about 61 C.E., for he wrote to the Hebrews Christians: "Therefore, since a promise is left of entering into his rest, let us fear that sometime someone of you may seem to have fallen short of it....For we who have exercised faith do enter into the rest....For in one place he has said of the seventh day as follows: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works (at Genesis 2:2),” and again in this place: “They shall not enter into my rest (at Ps 95:11).”(Heb 4:1, 3-5)

Thus, even down to the apostle Paul's time, some 4000 years after the creation of Adam, God's seventh "day" was still ongoing, incomplete, with "action in progress," with true Christians able to "enter into his (God's) rest". God's "rest day" will be concluded at the end of Christ's Millennium reign, that will begin in the near future, for the purpose of restoring the earth to its original paradisaic conditions as in the Garden of Eden. Hence, each "creative " day was approximately 7000 years long.

And concerning the name of Eden, the Bible does not specify just where the name came from, for when Moses wrote down the Genesis account in 1513 B.C.E., over 2500 years had passed since the creation of Adam in 4026 B.C.E. Though the word "king" is used by God (first seen at Gen 14:1), this title originated with humans. The issue is not where the name Eden originated, but the issue that arose therein, the challenge that Satan made regarding Jehovah's right to rule, or universal sovereignty, calling it into question.(Gen 3:1-6; Job 1:9-11, 2:4, 5)

Because of God cursing the ground following Adam's rebellion and subsequently both Adam and Eve being put out of the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:24), the ground did produce "thorns and thistles".(Gen 3:17) The Garden of Eden was a pattern that God provided for Adam and even and their offspring to make the rest of the earth as such. And the expression that Jehovah God "planted a garden, toward the east, " has to be seen through the eyes of Moses, as the writer of Genesis, for from where he wrote it in the "wilderness", possibly from the wilderness of Sinai (Ex 19:1), Eden was eastward.

The belief that "Father, Son, Spirit, One Entity of God in three beings" is not found in the Bible, but this belief in a trinity originated from ancient Babylon (with one such trinity of gods, made up of two gods and a goddess, Sin (the moon-god), Shamash (the sun-god), and Ishtar)

The apostle Paul would not have used the Greek word an·ti´ly·tron (meaning "corresponding ransom") had Jesus been equal to or God. Was it God that sinned ? To whom was Jesus a "corresponding (or equal) ransom" ? Who was Jesus to replace, in order to ransom mankind ? Not God ! Rather, it was Adam that failed in his loyalty to God.

Thus, that is why Paul wrote: "That is why, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned...So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, likewise also through one act of justification (through Jesus Christ as a "corresponding ransom") the result to men of all sorts is a declaring of them righteous for life."(Rom 5:12, 18) That is also why Paul wrote that "there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus."(1 Tim 2:5)

When you get a chance, go read my responses to Doc in his screwball Fatal Error thread. There I prove by Scripture beyond any REASONABLE doubt, that is, that is to a REASONABLE man, possessed of reason: that jesus IS GOD.

Regarding your obfuscations on the meaning of 'Day', any person who has read Scripture at least once, cover to cover, knows that there are different uses there of the word day. The multiple meanings & uses of words is so fundamental to language & communication that it doesn't even need to be addressed, EVERYBDY already knows that! The problem comes about when people try to second-guess or out-think God!

In effect what you and certain others are saying is that God was too stupid to come up with a readable & understandable Bible, but thank God He has you to interpret His sorry confusions. Further problems come when one tries to apply meanings & interpretations to words that simply aren't there in 'original' texts.

There's a way to understand Scripture and its deepest messages. That Way is Jesus, in His Holy Spirit. We fall on our face before Him and humbly pray that He will open up HIS WORD to our understanding by His Mercy & Grace. Instead too many decide to let me tell me what I THINK scripture says! The whole message of Scripture is to LOSE SELF to God: but a man instead starts out in the center of SELF, and the SELF blocks the True Light of the Word of Truth penetrating into a humbly willing mind and heart.

Nobody who has studied the Bible with divine guidance would get stumbled that the 6 days of creation were actually 42,000 years. May be news to you, but God is actually clever enough to have told us that outright, had it been true, which possibly never occurred to you. Because it isn't true, He didn't tell us that.

Of course I can't expect you to understand it, because you don't even believe Jesus is God, last time I checked? So much for your erudition and 'Deeper Knowledge' of Biblical things. Given enough time, as your understanding devolves, you'll likely decide finally that Jesus was really no better than you, if you even give Him that much credit.

Pray God, in humble submission, to guide you into His Truth and there's still hope, I think. He may not share that opinion, but it's worth a shot.

Jaareshiah · Dec 4, 2010

JDFree said:
When you get a chance, go read my responses to Doc in his screwball Fatal Error thread. There I prove by Scripture beyond any REASONABLE doubt, that is, that is to a REASONABLE man, possessed of reason: that jesus IS GOD.

Here are some questions to consider:

(1) If Jesus is God, then why was did he supplicate (supplicate - "appeal made to somebody in authority") God, having godly fear ?(Heb 5:7; Luke 12:5)
(2) Why did Jesus need saving "out of death" if he is God, since Habakkuk 1:12 says that God does not die ?(Ps 90:2)
(3) If Jesus is God, then how is it that he "learned obedience" ?(Heb 5:8; Phil 2:8)
(4) If Jesus is God, then why was he "made perfect", since God is the very epitome of perfection ?(Heb 5:9; Deut 32:4)
(5) If Jesus is God, then why is it that he was "called by God" to be "a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek" ?(Heb 5:10; Ps 110:4)
(6) If Jesus is God, then why did he say in prayer to his Father, that he was "the only true God" ?(John 17:3)
(7) If Jesus is God, then why did Paul say that "there is to us one God...and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ" ?(1 Cor 8:6)
(8) If Jesus is God, then why was he unaware of the "day and hour" when the great tribulation would begin, Jesus saying that only the Father had this knowledge ?(Matt 24:36)
(9) If Jesus is God, then why did he pray to his Father ?
(10) If Jesus is God, then why was he "taught by the Father" ?(John 8:28)
(11) If Jesus is God, then explain 1 Corinthians 2:16, whereby we can come to know the "mind of Christ" but not God's ?
(12) If Jesus is God, then why did Jesus differentiate himself from God, say: "If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality." ?(John 7:17)
(13) If Jesus is God, then why did he say that "the Father is greater than I am" ?(John 14:28)
(14) If Jesus is God, then why did he say to Mary that he was "ascending to my God and your God" ?(John 20:17)
(15) If Jesus is God, then why did Paul say that "the head of the Christ is God" ?(1 Cor 11:3)
(16) If Jesus is God, then why was "God's spirit descending upon him" at his baptism "?(Matt 3:16)
(17) If Jesus Is God, then why was there a voice from God after his baptism saying: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” ?(Matt 3:17)

JDFree · Dec 4, 2010

(1) If Jesus is God, then why was did he supplicate (supplicate - "appeal made to somebody in authority") God, having godly fear ?(Heb 5:7; Luke 12:5)
(2) Why did Jesus need saving "out of death" if he is God, since Habakkuk 1:12 says that God does not die ?(Ps 90:2)
(3) If Jesus is God, then how is it that he "learned obedience" ?(Heb 5:8; Phil 2:8)
(4) If Jesus is God, then why was he "made perfect", since God is the very epitome of perfection ?(Heb 5:9; Deut 32:4)
(5) If Jesus is God, then why is it that he was "called by God" to be "a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek" ?(Heb 5:10; Ps 110:4)
(6) If Jesus is God, then why did he say in prayer to his Father, that he was "the only true God" ?(John 17:3)
(7) If Jesus is God, then why did Paul say that "there is to us one God...and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ" ?(1 Cor 8:6)
(8) If Jesus is God, then why was he unaware of the "day and hour" when the great tribulation would begin, Jesus saying that only the Father had this knowledge ?(Matt 24:36)
(9) If Jesus is God, then why did he pray to his Father ?
(10) If Jesus is God, then why was he "taught by the Father" ?(John 8:28)
(11) If Jesus is God, then explain 1 Corinthians 2:16, whereby we can come to know the "mind of Christ" but not God's ?
(12) If Jesus is God, then why did Jesus differentiate himself from God, say: "If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality." ?(John 7:17)
(13) If Jesus is God, then why did he say that "the Father is greater than I am" ?(John 14:28)
(14) If Jesus is God, then why did he say to Mary that he was "ascending to my God and your God" ?(John 20:17)
(15) If Jesus is God, then why did Paul say that "the head of the Christ is God" ?(1 Cor 11:3)
(16) If Jesus is God, then why was "God's spirit descending upon him" at his baptism "?(Matt 3:16)
(17) If Jesus Is God, then why was there a voice from God after his baptism saying: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved." ?(Matt 3:17

I got pretty hot under the collar when you posted stuff about Jesus not being God, on a Christian forum, where people may come seeking knowledge of God to Salvation! I suppose I should have been a bit more calm about my reaction, but I do not accept anyone turning seeker's hearts away from the Truth, into their own errors. Pretty simply, if Jesus isn't God, as the Son of God, He wouldn't seem to have the power to save men's souls. Therefore such statements could make men think such a thing, and doubt that any of it was for real. That's not acceptable!

That said, you have posted some very interesting stuff elsewhere, so I'll answer these. [I have no idea if you're in this following category, and not even suggesting you are]

First, the first, primary mistake I see countless times, really countless: folks have NEVER sat down and read the Bible from cover to cover! That is, the same way they would read any other book! I mean it's plain insane: You pick up a murder mystery by dear old Agatha Christy. You read part of the 1st chapter, part of the 2nd, ignore the 3rd & 4th, study parts of the 5th some, ignore 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, read part of 11, none of 12, 13, 14, and 15, skim 16, ignore 17-23, study 24 in detail, then skim 1/3 of the last chapter.
Let me ask: Will you ever have any earthly idea of the actual story line, or actually find out who killed the butler??
95% or so of 'Christians' have NEVER read God's Word to them, cover to cover!

Then they busy themselves spouting off verses as if with great erudition. What's even worse, whole theologies are based on just this same dereliction, ignoring the very large part of God's extremely intricate message, which becomes quite simple: HAD THE BIBLE BEEN READ THROUGHLY AND IN DETAIL! Instead they focus on a few narrow areas, excluding the substance of what truly explains in context, and subvert men's minds for centuries!

Therefore, they've only heard part of the conversation. Like coming into a room and joining in a conversation that's already been going on for 2 hours, then running back & forth making coffee, coming back to chat, going to fix snacks, coming back to chat & listen, then out to get a dinner going, back & forth a few times during cooking, then finally sitting down to join in again for awhile as dinner simmers on the stove. Incredibly obvious: they aren't going to have a clue where the conversation went, or why people are saying the things they say! Then they should go out and tell others what the conversation was that night? NO!

They are entirely ignorant, having no knowledge of the substance of it at all, because their every perception and personal understanding is in error, not based on the whole of the conversation!

I'll try to answer some of those those 17 separate items directly, but again, it's the same tactic used by rojoloco and then by Doc in other places: dump out a huge pile of very complicated questions and demand answer. That's unreasonable, and actually deceitful, attempting to overwhelm or shut up those who disagree. That's because they haven't the substance to back up their own uninformed OPINIONS of what God's Word REALLY says! With those OPINIONS taught to them by others who didn't have a clue either.

JDFree · Dec 4, 2010

(1) If Jesus is God, then why was did he supplicate (supplicate - "appeal made to somebody in authority") God, having godly fear ?(Heb 5:7; Luke 12:5)
*Man, that's incredibly basic, a non-question to anyone who had ever read Scripture cover to cover! First clue: Son of God/Son of man. Basic, basic, basic: Jesus came in the form of a man, being fully a flesh & blood man, to die as a man, for the sins of men. At the same time, He was still the Son of God, and God: which gave Value to His Sacrifice, before His Father, as the Son of God dies for the sakes of the men, He created! Father God would never have been called Father, except the salvation event was part of the plan from the beginning, even within the actual Entity of God! Son of God dies, but His 'Life' is in the keeping of the Eternal Godhead, that his Life was then returned to Him by Holy Spirit of God. Son of God/Son of man, experiences all of the emotions, pain, suffering, fears, confusions at that point of the event, that it would indeed be a sacrifice 100% equal to had the sinner died himself. That equality of Sacrifice is overshadowed in that it is also the Son of God who calls to Father, that His suffering has tremendously more Value forever, before Almighty God in His Godhead of Entity. "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased..."
(2) Why did Jesus need saving "out of death" if he is God, since Habakkuk 1:12 says that God does not die ?(Ps 90:2)
*See above: basic! God didn't die [cease to exist]! The Son of God/Son of man, come in the flesh as a human, died, as a man; yet the Son of God, with His Spirit of Life in the keeping of Holy Spirit! He never 'needed' saving out of death, because no alternative to death of the Son of man was in the common Will of God, which is Father's Will.
(3) If Jesus is God, then how is it that he "learned obedience" ?(Heb 5:8; Phil 2:8)
*See above: basic! First, read the whole chapter, and PRAY FOR UNDERSTANDING in SUBMISSION before God! Remember: 'A verse taken out of context is not but a pretext!' The 20/20 Rule ALWAYS APPLIES in genuine study of Scripture: ALWAYS read the 20 verses before, and the 20 verses after, THEN ponder your question, if you'd still have one. In addition, that assumes that one has at least been interested enough in actual WHOLE Truth of God's Word to read the whole of it, even a couple of times, before posing questions. That is, read an APPROVED translation too! See end!
Son of man, in submission before His God, His Father, cries out, and in the whole of the event, as a man, learns obedience to God. He already had obedience to Father as the Son of God, else He would never have come in the form of a man! Why obedience? Incredibly simple really: 3 Beings, 3 personages in the 1 Entity of God, a matter of basic Scriptural understanding. So, imagine if the 3 Beings within Godhead all had a SEPARATE WILL in all events?? This would become the God of Chaos, Holy Fist Fight in heaven, and He would instantly Self-destruct in His Entity of Godhead! One Will must rule the things of God, obviously now, and God has chosen within His Will that the Rule of Will within the Godhead himself shall be Father's Will be done, Jesus/Son and blessed Holy Spirit in total Submission to the One Common Will of One God! "I do always the things that please my Father..." Wherever the Will of Jesus or the Will of Holy Spirit is mentioned it is in that exact context of 100% total agreement of Will within the Godhead [no easy thing to comprehend!].
(4) If Jesus is God, then why was he "made perfect", since God is the very epitome of perfection ?(Heb 5:9; Deut 32:4)
*Again, again, same as above, Son of God/Son of man: 100% God-100% man [hard to grasp of course]. Again, read 20/20, ESPECIALLY in Hebrews! Paul's IQ was somewhere up there in the stratosphere far beyond common men like myself! He was by far the best educated of the apostles, even exceeding Dr. Luke, and his teacher [the #1 teacher in all Israel] had complained that it was near impossible to keep him in books for his voracious appetite! Hebrews has been called by very erudite and educated men, extremely wide-read in all things: 'The greatest book ever written!', so that's Paul, and that's who you read, in addition to the whole Wisdom & Knowledge of God himself through Holy Spirit pouring out into his soul and mind as he writes! Yipes! Son of God, in Epitome of Perfection, comes to be born as Son of man, and man cannot be perfect because of sin nature: but Jesus never sinned, ever, in anything, of thought, word or deed: the PERFECT SACRIFICE!
(5) If Jesus is God, then why is it that he was "called by God" to be "a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek" ?(Heb 5:10; Ps 110:4)
*Again, precisely as above, all mentions apply. Within God's Will, which is Father's Will, the Son of God is called by the Will of God, to be a High Priest forever, even after the Order of Melchisedec. "Nevertheless, thy Will, not my Will be done..." Had he ever sinned, He could not be the High Priest forever.
(6) If Jesus is God, then why did he say in prayer to his Father, that he was "the only true God" ?(John 17:3)
*Once again: CONTEXT of Who is speaking, in what form, regarding what, under what circumstances: 20/20 Rule! That's seems like a tough one to comprehend allright, but alas, humans we are, and not God. Because God in His magnificent heavens is one Entity of 3 Beings in the Godhead, all God and all of God. He cannot be the True God if He is not also Perfection, and in that is Perfection of Will, which is what? FATHER'S Will! He is the One True God, by merit of 100% agreement in the Godhead in Father's Will. There is no other 'God', and cannot be: impossible! There must be that which is Supreme as genuinely God, above all else, and there is: The One True God, whom we call out to, "Abba, Father..." yet it was Jesus who created all that is: God, in 3 Beings, Alive in Father's Will forever, unchanging. Additionally, Isaiah 14:12 addresses the usurper, Satan, shouting, "I will be as the Most High!' Yeah, Satan? Better check with God on that one, as His opinion does in some ways disagree somewhat: can you say 'Hell forever'?? Jehovah/God is the ONE TRUE God.
(7) If Jesus is God, then why did Paul say that "there is to us one God...and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ" ?(1 Cor 8:6)
*Sorry to insult, but actually, it's your fault for not bothering to read all of Scripture cover to cover, wih an open mind in sumission to God, praying Him for right understanding. I can see that because of the overall elementary nature of your questions. As well, various Denominations are at fault, because they invariably emphasize 'CHURCH DOCTRINE!!!!' such that followers, saved or not, are domineered and overlorded to concentrate HERE! and not anywhere 'there', where the WHOLE TRUTH might have been found. By far, worst of all: one who re-writes Scripture into an intentionally false 'Translation' in order to dupe men into thinking his 'Doctrine' is that of God & God's Word. An example is found in the 'New World Translation' of the Jehovah's Witnesses: See end here. Simple answer: One God is God, no other. One Lord is Lord, no other. The One God and the One Lord are God, in the One Godhead of Entity of 3 Beings, who are God. You're apparently reading something into it that isn't there, or getting it from an intentionally erroneous script. Where does Paul says that One God and One Lord are not One in the Same? Where does Paul say "these two"? I published piles of Scripture to explain this already on this website so not going to give it again: Jehovah of the old Testament IS Lord/Jesus of the New Testament. Now look: we're lame-brained humans, not God, possessed of the Knowledge of God. Many error right there: demanding that they must have superior knowledge of all things, therefore they interpret Scripture their own magnificent and exalted self way, lost in self and ego. Regardless of that, it is not given to us to have full comprehension of all of the mysteries of God. It's even written in Scripture that we still won't, even after eons upon eons of existence on the other side, in God's Perfect Heaven, and in His Presence!
(8) If Jesus is God, then why was he unaware of the "day and hour" when the great tribulation would begin, Jesus saying that only the Father had this knowledge ?(Matt 24:36)
*'Back to the basics' again, answering questions that result from your NOT READING THE BIBLE! The WHOLE Bible! READ IT! [not even trying to be polite here, because you are challenging me based on your own refusal to bother to read what God says, then tossing out '20 Questions'.] How many Wills in God can be in effect at one time? Already given above. How many Beings in God, the Godhead? Already given above. In 3 Beings with independent Will of Being, in 1 Entity of God, can one Will intimately know the other's Will, if it not be spoken? If it is not yet spoken, it cannot be known: except by the One who would speak, Father God, in another time: "Time's UP!" which may come as I type, or as you read! "Be therefore ever watchful, for ye know not...." If in the beginning, at the outset, and throughout: you refuse to believe that it might be possible that the concept and actuality of 1 God, 3 Beings: 1 Entity of God, all as God within, and 1 Being as Jesus Christ/God: then by that hardness of heart, pre-determined conclusion, you WILL NEVER KNOW what is True, that it might have been revealed to you!
(9) If Jesus is God, then why did he pray to his Father? *Good Lord, man, read the Bible! Son of God/Son of man! 3 Beings/1God, Jesus 100% God/100% man: Jesus, SON of God/SON of man, prays to Whom?? Within What?? Making any sense yet? Read the Bible cover to cover yet?

(10) If Jesus is God, then why was he "taught by the Father" ?(John 8:28)
*Same answer.....
(11) If Jesus is God, then explain 1 Corinthians 2:16, whereby we can come to know the "mind of Christ" but not God's ?
*Only Christ, our Jesus, came as a man. We can know the 'mind [Will] of God' through Christ Jesus, that is: all of it that we can handle. I would imagine that if for a tick in time we were given, as men, one quadrilionth of the Mind of God: we would explode grey matter to the farthest reaches of the universe! God has deigned, in His inimitable Mercy and Grace, always in the order: that we might know some little bit of His Mind & Will through Jesus. Astounding at that, and at the limits of human comprehension if one wants to really delve into the deepest depths of the Word of Scripture. I've a friend who's grossly mentally retarded, a fine youg man, thoroughly enjoyable to be around, great guy! He's probably 40+ by now, but possessed of the mind of a 3-5 year old. You NEVER saw in your life a man more completely sold out to Jesus, and I guarantee you: he knows EXACTLY whom he believes in! Probably much better than me! Yet other friends with IQ of 190 or more, stumbled by concepts written in the deepst parts of the Word. GOD, to be sure, GOD!
(12) If Jesus is God, then why did Jesus differentiate himself from God, say: "If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality." ?(John 7:17)
*Very BAD 'translation' there, because it isn't a translation at all, but a thing invented by a man. See end of this! "If and man will do His Will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or I speak of myself." Guess where we end up again? READ THE BIBLE! 20/20 Rule! WHO is Jesus talking to, under WHAT circumstances? He spoke to JEWS, many of whom did not believe, and most of whom wondered who He really was. The verse before it explains the simple answer: "And the Jews marveled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me. If any man will do His Will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or I speak of myself." They did not think at all that Jesus was God in any way, shape or form. He knew that. They were therefore puzzled as to how this simple carpenter's son, who had never had the 'benefit' of higher learning in the university under famous Jewish Rabbis, could entirely eclipse their teachings or explain them in incredible depth and detail, well beyond what even the Rabbis knew. So He spoke to them on their home turf: that there is a God, Jehovah to them in their understanding, who has a Will for His children, including that Nation of Israel. If they were in that Will of God, they would have understood where the Doctrine of Jesus comes from. In other words, but not His of course, If you guys cared a whit for God and actually got off your dead buts and worshipped Him in spirit and in truth, and labored to keep His [actually 'my'] Commandments that you're under, you would have realized, by the deeper knowledge of those Commandments, from your study of them and your works to keep them and your experience in them, that this which I speak would be very familiar ground, easily understood, even by you: that it is directly agreeable, even coming from the Will of God!" Their willful ignorance stumbled them, also like a person who remains willfully ignorant by willfully refusing to even bother reading ALL of God's Word!
(13) If Jesus is God, then why did he say that "the Father is greater than I am" ?(John 14:28)
*A-g-a-i-n, Son of God/Son of man, Son of MAN speaks! Again, FATHER'S WILL be done! In God's desired Hierarchy of God, within His Entity, in order to be God as the Godhead of 3 Beings/1Entity Eternally, Father MUST be 'greater' in Will! And, Father had never set aside His own Glory to stoop to the humiliation of being born as a man, as Jesus was, so that He was fully Greater in every way. Most cannot comprehend the tremendous Sacrifice of God to even be born on a woman: disgusting, sinful, evil minded, steeped in wickedness human woman, and she Mary nowhere near as evil as others, but rather a very good woman and servant of God.
(14) If Jesus is God, then why did he say to Mary that he was "ascending to my God and your God" ?(John 20:17)
*Already addressed in all of the above: Son of God/Son of man, speaking as a man to the woman who bore the MAN Christ.
(15) If Jesus is God, then why did Paul say that "the head of the Christ is God" ?(1 Cor 11:3)
* Already addressed: God's Will is Father's Will, who is God. 'The Christ' came as man, in Father's Will, in submission, with Father's Will Supreme over His actions here.
(16) If Jesus is God, then why was "God's spirit descending upon him" at his baptism "?(Matt 3:16)
*So that this MAN, Son of MAN, Jesus Christ might be Filled with the Holy Spirit for His Ministry before men, as the Son of MAN, who is the Son of God, who is GOD.

(17) If Jesus Is God, then why was there a voice from God after his baptism saying: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved." ?(Matt 3:17
*BAD translation, not accurate to the received texts, and translated by a man who had zero understanding of Hebrew Language, zero understanding of Greek Language, who admitted in court under oath that he couldn't even recognize, read or correctly identify the letters of the Greek alphabet, and who had at his highest achievement a 7th grade education: Charles Taze Russel, founder of Jehovah's Witnesses, and a 'tranzlatur' of the 'New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures', along with the 'New World Bible Translation Commitee', whoever that was that 'translated' into deceit, this coming from the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society of Pennsylvania! Russel & Rutherford, a dynamic duo of deceit! Note carefully on the flyleaf, it says: 'Rendered from the original translations'. Do you know what a 'Rendering Plant' is? It is a place for BUTCHERING animals! Rendered, yes: translated? NO! Butchered from the original translations!
WHICH original translations? Did any on these have access to the Textus Receptus? Any VERIFIED Original manuscripts? Or did they instead just refer to King James Vesion as their 'Original Translations', and then RE-WRITE IT TO SUIT THEIR DOCTRINE?!!
A CORRECT translation, by the finest Greeks scholars ever joned together at one time in one place, England, from King James Version: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Basic, elementary, foundational, simple, clear, easily understood, WITH AN OPEN MIND! Son of God/Son of MAN, God come in the flesh, in humble submission to the Will of Father God: that in all things, He pleased the Father.
You let them steal your brain. You can get it back: they don't own it, yet... Quit listening to your pals here, who have all slipped in together to gang up and hopefully unhinge TRUE Christian Doctrine and pervert the understanding of TRUE SEEKERS after Jesus Christ! Put yourself into submission to GOD, rather than to lies and travesties of men, and you too will be a son who pleases Father!

KingdomSeeker · Dec 4, 2010

Aye yei yei!!!

Whats with you people!!?

Making a thread about Adam and Eve, turning it into a Godhead disscussion!?

Start your own thread. Or Website...

Considering this is all out of whack anyway, heres something to think about for EVERYONE...

Exodus 23:20-23
"Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.."

"Obey HIS voice, and do all I speak" ...Through Him.

My name is in him - The Jehovah dwells in him; in him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and because of this he could either pardon or punish. All power is given unto me in heaven and earth, Matthew 28:18

This Angel is the PRE Jesus, Jesus. What I mean by that is, He is what God used to have his authority obeyed.
However JESUS is Greater then the Angel, because God never called the Angel SON. Do you See. This ANGEL IS and WAS God. He was Completely the word of God, the power oF God, the Authority of God. And The GLORY of GOD. Jesus is All that...AND MORE Jesus is The power, authority, glory, WORD, AND SON of God. In so much as GOD put his everything into this messenger, GOd ALSO put his EVERYTHING into His Son, Jesus, while still being GOD the Father. Its not something a human mind can properly absorb and fully understand. But FAITH allows us to understand and beleive that.

Jesus IS God, and he was Human. The Old testement is picture, after picture, of What God WILL do, but what God WILL do will be the final move. The Angelof the LORD in the OT, was temporary. Just as the LAW was. Now Jesus IS the Law. He IS The Final Message. No more messages. Its JUST Jesus and HIS Spirit.

Now can we please bring this Thread back to the origional topic...of Adam and Eve. And the Garden. Go argue and confuse in another forum.

jiggyfly · Dec 4, 2010

KingdomSeeker said:
Aye yei yei!!!

Whats with you people!!?

Making a thread about Adam and Eve, turning it into a Godhead disscussion!?

Start your own thread. Or Website...

Considering this is all out of whack anyway, heres something to think about for EVERYONE...

Exodus 23:20-23
"Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.."

"Obey HIS voice, and do all I speak" ...Through Him.

My name is in him - The Jehovah dwells in him; in him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and because of this he could either pardon or punish. All power is given unto me in heaven and earth, Matthew 28:18

This Angel is the PRE Jesus, Jesus. What I mean by that is, He is what God used to have his authority obeyed.
However JESUS is Greater then the Angel, because God never called the Angel SON. Do you See. This ANGEL IS and WAS God. He was Completely the word of God, the power oF God, the Authority of God. And The GLORY of GOD. Jesus is All that...AND MORE Jesus is The power, authority, glory, WORD, AND SON of God. In so much as GOD put his everything into this messenger, GOd ALSO put his EVERYTHING into His Son, Jesus, while still being GOD the Father. Its not something a human mind can properly absorb and fully understand. But FAITH allows us to understand and beleive that.

Jesus IS God, and he was Human. The Old testement is picture, after picture, of What God WILL do, but what God WILL do will be the final move. The Angelof the LORD in the OT, was temporary. Just as the LAW was. Now Jesus IS the Law. He IS The Final Message. No more messages. Its JUST Jesus and HIS Spirit.

Now can we please bring this Thread back to the origional topic...of Adam and Eve. And the Garden. Go argue and confuse in another forum.

Dido guys, get back on topic.

JDFree · Dec 4, 2010

Interesting, and I understand your comments, but actually, it is still on topic! It's all about God's Will, the fall of man, man's desires for self over the desire for the things of God, and even getting a close up picture of one fallen into deceits of lies, who repeats them in total ignorance of God's Truth. By this we might see how selfishness and perverted personal opinions, outside of and contrary to those of God, caused man to fall into damnation forever; but for Jesus, thank you, LORD GOD!

Jaareshiah · Dec 7, 2010

JDFree said:
(1) If Jesus is God, then why was did he supplicate (supplicate - "appeal made to somebody in authority") God, having godly fear ?(Heb 5:7; Luke 12:5)
*Man, that's incredibly basic, a non-question to anyone who had ever read Scripture cover to cover! First clue: Son of God/Son of man. Basic, basic, basic: Jesus came in the form of a man, being fully a flesh & blood man, to die as a man, for the sins of men. At the same time, He was still the Son of God, and God: which gave Value to His Sacrifice, before His Father, as the Son of God dies for the sakes of the men, He created! Father God would never have been called Father, except the salvation event was part of the plan from the beginning, even within the actual Entity of God! Son of God dies, but His 'Life' is in the keeping of the Eternal Godhead, that his Life was then returned to Him by Holy Spirit of God. Son of God/Son of man, experiences all of the emotions, pain, suffering, fears, confusions at that point of the event, that it would indeed be a sacrifice 100% equal to had the sinner died himself. That equality of Sacrifice is overshadowed in that it is also the Son of God who calls to Father, that His suffering has tremendously more Value forever, before Almighty God in His Godhead of Entity. "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased..."
(2) Why did Jesus need saving "out of death" if he is God, since Habakkuk 1:12 says that God does not die ?(Ps 90:2)
*See above: basic! God didn't die [cease to exist]! The Son of God/Son of man, come in the flesh as a human, died, as a man; yet the Son of God, with His Spirit of Life in the keeping of Holy Spirit! He never 'needed' saving out of death, because no alternative to death of the Son of man was in the common Will of God, which is Father's Will.
(3) If Jesus is God, then how is it that he "learned obedience" ?(Heb 5:8; Phil 2:8)
*See above: basic! First, read the whole chapter, and PRAY FOR UNDERSTANDING in SUBMISSION before God! Remember: 'A verse taken out of context is not but a pretext!' The 20/20 Rule ALWAYS APPLIES in genuine study of Scripture: ALWAYS read the 20 verses before, and the 20 verses after, THEN ponder your question, if you'd still have one. In addition, that assumes that one has at least been interested enough in actual WHOLE Truth of God's Word to read the whole of it, even a couple of times, before posing questions. That is, read an APPROVED translation too! See end!
Son of man, in submission before His God, His Father, cries out, and in the whole of the event, as a man, learns obedience to God. He already had obedience to Father as the Son of God, else He would never have come in the form of a man! Why obedience? Incredibly simple really: 3 Beings, 3 personages in the 1 Entity of God, a matter of basic Scriptural understanding. So, imagine if the 3 Beings within Godhead all had a SEPARATE WILL in all events?? This would become the God of Chaos, Holy Fist Fight in heaven, and He would instantly Self-destruct in His Entity of Godhead! One Will must rule the things of God, obviously now, and God has chosen within His Will that the Rule of Will within the Godhead himself shall be Father's Will be done, Jesus/Son and blessed Holy Spirit in total Submission to the One Common Will of One God! "I do always the things that please my Father..." Wherever the Will of Jesus or the Will of Holy Spirit is mentioned it is in that exact context of 100% total agreement of Will within the Godhead [no easy thing to comprehend!].
(4) If Jesus is God, then why was he "made perfect", since God is the very epitome of perfection ?(Heb 5:9; Deut 32:4)
*Again, again, same as above, Son of God/Son of man: 100% God-100% man [hard to grasp of course]. Again, read 20/20, ESPECIALLY in Hebrews! Paul's IQ was somewhere up there in the stratosphere far beyond common men like myself! He was by far the best educated of the apostles, even exceeding Dr. Luke, and his teacher [the #1 teacher in all Israel] had complained that it was near impossible to keep him in books for his voracious appetite! Hebrews has been called by very erudite and educated men, extremely wide-read in all things: 'The greatest book ever written!', so that's Paul, and that's who you read, in addition to the whole Wisdom & Knowledge of God himself through Holy Spirit pouring out into his soul and mind as he writes! Yipes! Son of God, in Epitome of Perfection, comes to be born as Son of man, and man cannot be perfect because of sin nature: but Jesus never sinned, ever, in anything, of thought, word or deed: the PERFECT SACRIFICE!
(5) If Jesus is God, then why is it that he was "called by God" to be "a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek" ?(Heb 5:10; Ps 110:4)
*Again, precisely as above, all mentions apply. Within God's Will, which is Father's Will, the Son of God is called by the Will of God, to be a High Priest forever, even after the Order of Melchisedec. "Nevertheless, thy Will, not my Will be done..." Had he ever sinned, He could not be the High Priest forever.
(6) If Jesus is God, then why did he say in prayer to his Father, that he was "the only true God" ?(John 17:3)
*Once again: CONTEXT of Who is speaking, in what form, regarding what, under what circumstances: 20/20 Rule! That's seems like a tough one to comprehend allright, but alas, humans we are, and not God. Because God in His magnificent heavens is one Entity of 3 Beings in the Godhead, all God and all of God. He cannot be the True God if He is not also Perfection, and in that is Perfection of Will, which is what? FATHER'S Will! He is the One True God, by merit of 100% agreement in the Godhead in Father's Will. There is no other 'God', and cannot be: impossible! There must be that which is Supreme as genuinely God, above all else, and there is: The One True God, whom we call out to, "Abba, Father..." yet it was Jesus who created all that is: God, in 3 Beings, Alive in Father's Will forever, unchanging. Additionally, Isaiah 14:12 addresses the usurper, Satan, shouting, "I will be as the Most High!' Yeah, Satan? Better check with God on that one, as His opinion does in some ways disagree somewhat: can you say 'Hell forever'?? Jehovah/God is the ONE TRUE God.
(7) If Jesus is God, then why did Paul say that "there is to us one God...and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ" ?(1 Cor 8:6)
*Sorry to insult, but actually, it's your fault for not bothering to read all of Scripture cover to cover, wih an open mind in sumission to God, praying Him for right understanding. I can see that because of the overall elementary nature of your questions. As well, various Denominations are at fault, because they invariably emphasize 'CHURCH DOCTRINE!!!!' such that followers, saved or not, are domineered and overlorded to concentrate HERE! and not anywhere 'there', where the WHOLE TRUTH might have been found. By far, worst of all: one who re-writes Scripture into an intentionally false 'Translation' in order to dupe men into thinking his 'Doctrine' is that of God & God's Word. An example is found in the 'New World Translation' of the Jehovah's Witnesses: See end here. Simple answer: One God is God, no other. One Lord is Lord, no other. The One God and the One Lord are God, in the One Godhead of Entity of 3 Beings, who are God. You're apparently reading something into it that isn't there, or getting it from an intentionally erroneous script. Where does Paul says that One God and One Lord are not One in the Same? Where does Paul say "these two"? I published piles of Scripture to explain this already on this website so not going to give it again: Jehovah of the old Testament IS Lord/Jesus of the New Testament. Now look: we're lame-brained humans, not God, possessed of the Knowledge of God. Many error right there: demanding that they must have superior knowledge of all things, therefore they interpret Scripture their own magnificent and exalted self way, lost in self and ego. Regardless of that, it is not given to us to have full comprehension of all of the mysteries of God. It's even written in Scripture that we still won't, even after eons upon eons of existence on the other side, in God's Perfect Heaven, and in His Presence!
(8) If Jesus is God, then why was he unaware of the "day and hour" when the great tribulation would begin, Jesus saying that only the Father had this knowledge ?(Matt 24:36)
*'Back to the basics' again, answering questions that result from your NOT READING THE BIBLE! The WHOLE Bible! READ IT! [not even trying to be polite here, because you are challenging me based on your own refusal to bother to read what God says, then tossing out '20 Questions'.] How many Wills in God can be in effect at one time? Already given above. How many Beings in God, the Godhead? Already given above. In 3 Beings with independent Will of Being, in 1 Entity of God, can one Will intimately know the other's Will, if it not be spoken? If it is not yet spoken, it cannot be known: except by the One who would speak, Father God, in another time: "Time's UP!" which may come as I type, or as you read! "Be therefore ever watchful, for ye know not...." If in the beginning, at the outset, and throughout: you refuse to believe that it might be possible that the concept and actuality of 1 God, 3 Beings: 1 Entity of God, all as God within, and 1 Being as Jesus Christ/God: then by that hardness of heart, pre-determined conclusion, you WILL NEVER KNOW what is True, that it might have been revealed to you!
(9) If Jesus is God, then why did he pray to his Father? *Good Lord, man, read the Bible! Son of God/Son of man! 3 Beings/1God, Jesus 100% God/100% man: Jesus, SON of God/SON of man, prays to Whom?? Within What?? Making any sense yet? Read the Bible cover to cover yet?

(10) If Jesus is God, then why was he "taught by the Father" ?(John 8:28)
*Same answer.....
(11) If Jesus is God, then explain 1 Corinthians 2:16, whereby we can come to know the "mind of Christ" but not God's ?
*Only Christ, our Jesus, came as a man. We can know the 'mind [Will] of God' through Christ Jesus, that is: all of it that we can handle. I would imagine that if for a tick in time we were given, as men, one quadrilionth of the Mind of God: we would explode grey matter to the farthest reaches of the universe! God has deigned, in His inimitable Mercy and Grace, always in the order: that we might know some little bit of His Mind & Will through Jesus. Astounding at that, and at the limits of human comprehension if one wants to really delve into the deepest depths of the Word of Scripture. I've a friend who's grossly mentally retarded, a fine youg man, thoroughly enjoyable to be around, great guy! He's probably 40+ by now, but possessed of the mind of a 3-5 year old. You NEVER saw in your life a man more completely sold out to Jesus, and I guarantee you: he knows EXACTLY whom he believes in! Probably much better than me! Yet other friends with IQ of 190 or more, stumbled by concepts written in the deepst parts of the Word. GOD, to be sure, GOD!
(12) If Jesus is God, then why did Jesus differentiate himself from God, say: "If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality." ?(John 7:17)
*Very BAD 'translation' there, because it isn't a translation at all, but a thing invented by a man. See end of this! "If and man will do His Will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or I speak of myself." Guess where we end up again? READ THE BIBLE! 20/20 Rule! WHO is Jesus talking to, under WHAT circumstances? He spoke to JEWS, many of whom did not believe, and most of whom wondered who He really was. The verse before it explains the simple answer: "And the Jews marveled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me. If any man will do His Will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or I speak of myself." They did not think at all that Jesus was God in any way, shape or form. He knew that. They were therefore puzzled as to how this simple carpenter's son, who had never had the 'benefit' of higher learning in the university under famous Jewish Rabbis, could entirely eclipse their teachings or explain them in incredible depth and detail, well beyond what even the Rabbis knew. So He spoke to them on their home turf: that there is a God, Jehovah to them in their understanding, who has a Will for His children, including that Nation of Israel. If they were in that Will of God, they would have understood where the Doctrine of Jesus comes from. In other words, but not His of course, If you guys cared a whit for God and actually got off your dead buts and worshipped Him in spirit and in truth, and labored to keep His [actually 'my'] Commandments that you're under, you would have realized, by the deeper knowledge of those Commandments, from your study of them and your works to keep them and your experience in them, that this which I speak would be very familiar ground, easily understood, even by you: that it is directly agreeable, even coming from the Will of God!" Their willful ignorance stumbled them, also like a person who remains willfully ignorant by willfully refusing to even bother reading ALL of God's Word!
(13) If Jesus is God, then why did he say that "the Father is greater than I am" ?(John 14:28)
*A-g-a-i-n, Son of God/Son of man, Son of MAN speaks! Again, FATHER'S WILL be done! In God's desired Hierarchy of God, within His Entity, in order to be God as the Godhead of 3 Beings/1Entity Eternally, Father MUST be 'greater' in Will! And, Father had never set aside His own Glory to stoop to the humiliation of being born as a man, as Jesus was, so that He was fully Greater in every way. Most cannot comprehend the tremendous Sacrifice of God to even be born on a woman: disgusting, sinful, evil minded, steeped in wickedness human woman, and she Mary nowhere near as evil as others, but rather a very good woman and servant of God.
(14) If Jesus is God, then why did he say to Mary that he was "ascending to my God and your God" ?(John 20:17)
*Already addressed in all of the above: Son of God/Son of man, speaking as a man to the woman who bore the MAN Christ.
(15) If Jesus is God, then why did Paul say that "the head of the Christ is God" ?(1 Cor 11:3)
* Already addressed: God's Will is Father's Will, who is God. 'The Christ' came as man, in Father's Will, in submission, with Father's Will Supreme over His actions here.
(16) If Jesus is God, then why was "God's spirit descending upon him" at his baptism "?(Matt 3:16)
*So that this MAN, Son of MAN, Jesus Christ might be Filled with the Holy Spirit for His Ministry before men, as the Son of MAN, who is the Son of God, who is GOD.

(17) If Jesus Is God, then why was there a voice from God after his baptism saying: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved." ?(Matt 3:17
*BAD translation, not accurate to the received texts, and translated by a man who had zero understanding of Hebrew Language, zero understanding of Greek Language, who admitted in court under oath that he couldn't even recognize, read or correctly identify the letters of the Greek alphabet, and who had at his highest achievement a 7th grade education: Charles Taze Russel, founder of Jehovah's Witnesses, and a 'tranzlatur' of the 'New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures', along with the 'New World Bible Translation Commitee', whoever that was that 'translated' into deceit, this coming from the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society of Pennsylvania! Russel & Rutherford, a dynamic duo of deceit! Note carefully on the flyleaf, it says: 'Rendered from the original translations'. Do you know what a 'Rendering Plant' is? It is a place for BUTCHERING animals! Rendered, yes: translated? NO! Butchered from the original translations!
WHICH original translations? Did any on these have access to the Textus Receptus? Any VERIFIED Original manuscripts? Or did they instead just refer to King James Vesion as their 'Original Translations', and then RE-WRITE IT TO SUIT THEIR DOCTRINE?!!
A CORRECT translation, by the finest Greeks scholars ever joned together at one time in one place, England, from King James Version: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Basic, elementary, foundational, simple, clear, easily understood, WITH AN OPEN MIND! Son of God/Son of MAN, God come in the flesh, in humble submission to the Will of Father God: that in all things, He pleased the Father.
You let them steal your brain. You can get it back: they don't own it, yet... Quit listening to your pals here, who have all slipped in together to gang up and hopefully unhinge TRUE Christian Doctrine and pervert the understanding of TRUE SEEKERS after Jesus Christ! Put yourself into submission to GOD, rather than to lies and travesties of men, and you too will be a son who pleases Father!

Why should you have gotten "hot under the collar" ? What you wrote was illogical. Your "explanation" of Hebrews 5:7 already shows a lack of evidence, but rather a strongly biased personal opinion, for you state, as if it true that, "First clue:He was still the Son of God and God." You present it as fact, when in fact, this is a teaching of the churches that began to be accepted as a "truth" almost 300 years after Jesus death, starting with the Council Of Nicea in 325 C.E. If the trinity is true, then why did it take some 350 years to become part of Christian "doctrine", starting with the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. that began to formulate the trinity doctrine ?

Jesus taught concerning "God's kingdom"(Luke 8:1), and following his death in 33 C.E., was being preached throughout Israel (Acts 8:12), and later in Asia Minor by the apostle Paul.(Acts 28:31) Why was the "kingdom of God" taught so clearly right after Jesus death, but it took some 350 years for the trinity doctrine to make headway ? Only in 392 C.E., Emperor Theodosius I made orthodox Catholicism with its Trinity doctrine the State religion of the Roman Empire.

If that is true, that Jesus is God, then why does Jesus worship the Father at John 4:22 and then say that "God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth" ?(John 4:24) Some 65 years later, when Jesus had already returned to heaven, Jesus says: "The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine."(Rev 3:12) How can Jesus be God and yet say this, especially after having returned to heaven ?

Following his baptism in 29 C.E., Jesus told Satan (quoting from Deut 5:9): "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matt 4:10) As an example of the trinity's development, Plato’s ideas about God and nature influenced Christendom’s Trinity doctrine. Explains the “Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel”: “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”(Volume 2, page 1467)

The Encyclopedia Americana comments: "Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian (believing in one God). The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."(1956 Vol. XXVII, p. 294)

You also try to discount accurate wording, such as at Matthew 3:17, whereby it says: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”(New World Translation, "well pleased", King James Bible) The Greek word at the end is eudokeo, and means "to think well of, i.e. approve (an act)"[Strong's Concordance # G2106] Hence, God ' approved ' of Jesus baptism, and thus identified Jesus as, not God, but as his Son.

You are the type that no amount of evidence will alter your thinking, but rather become angry and rationalize (and twisting) every scripture in order to fit a trinitarian belief. After this, I will keep "on topic" with any more information, as I have no desire to derail this thread.

JDFree · Dec 7, 2010

Jaareshiah said:
Why should you have gotten "hot under the collar" ? What you wrote was illogical. Your "explanation" of Hebrews 5:7 already shows a lack of evidence, but rather a strongly biased personal opinion, for you state, as if it true that, "First clue:He was still the Son of God and God." You present it as fact, when in fact, this is a teaching of the churches that began to be accepted as a "truth" almost 300 years after Jesus death, starting with the Council Of Nicea in 325 C.E. If the trinity is true, then why did it take some 350 years to become part of Christian "doctrine", starting with the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. that began to formulate the trinity doctrine ?

Jesus taught concerning "God's kingdom"(Luke 8:1), and following his death in 33 C.E., was being preached throughout Israel (Acts 8:12), and later in Asia Minor by the apostle Paul.(Acts 28:31) Why was the "kingdom of God" taught so clearly right after Jesus death, but it took some 350 years for the trinity doctrine to make headway ? Only in 392 C.E., Emperor Theodosius I made orthodox Catholicism with its Trinity doctrine the State religion of the Roman Empire.

If that is true, that Jesus is God, then why does Jesus worship the Father at John 4:22 and then say that "God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth" ?(John 4:24) Some 65 years later, when Jesus had already returned to heaven, Jesus says: "The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine."(Rev 3:12) How can Jesus be God and yet say this, especially after having returned to heaven ?

Following his baptism in 29 C.E., Jesus told Satan (quoting from Deut 5:9): "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matt 4:10) As an example of the trinity's development, Plato’s ideas about God and nature influenced Christendom’s Trinity doctrine. Explains the “Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel”: “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”(Volume 2, page 1467)

The Encyclopedia Americana comments: "Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian (believing in one God). The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."(1956 Vol. XXVII, p. 294)

You also try to discount accurate wording, such as at Matthew 3:17, whereby it says: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”(New World Translation, "well pleased", King James Bible) The Greek word at the end is eudokeo, and means "to think well of, i.e. approve (an act)"[Strong's Concordance # G2106] Hence, God ' approved ' of Jesus baptism, and thus identified Jesus as, not God, but as his Son.

You are the type that no amount of evidence will alter your thinking, but rather become angry and rationalize (and twisting) every scripture in order to fit a trinitarian belief. After this, I will keep "on topic" with any more information, as I have no desire to derail this thread.

This will maybe take 2 replies, not sure yet. First, until you actually know what Holy Scripture truly says, without it being perverted by the corruptions of men, you will never have a right understanding of what the actual True Message of Truth is from our Holy God’s Word of Truth. Please review the new thread I just posted in ‘Bible Study’ forum, ‘Accurately informed perspective of Belief’.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

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In this and other threads you’ve read I made it undeniably clear that the apostles and disciples fully & deeply believed, and clearly stated, in very plain language, that Jesus was, is and ever will be GOD, and that God is a Trinity! Further, I demonstrated where that Trinity of Godhead is FIRST given in FIRST BOOK as Genesis, in the FIRST CHAPTER of Genesis, in the FIRST 2 VERSES of Genesis as the very opening words of Scripture penned by MOSES whom God spoke to directly! That clarity was proven by Scripture itself directly from earliest and most authentic Manuscripts, with those M/S further proven by previously unknown Dead Sea Scrolls. You just cannot accept it because you use a Bible that’s been entirely corrupted by men, and those men are pounding on your brains with it!

The Dead Sea Scrolls entirely & completely blow away this theory that the R/C church got in and made wicked changes to everything in the Bible to deceitfully push their agendas & doctrines of men. Those Scrolls were hidden for centuries in the desert until I think 1949, far, far away from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

ffice:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on">Rome</st1:City> or <st1:country-region w:st="on">Italy</st1:country-region> or any <st1

lace w:st="on">Vatican</st1

lace> influence! Explain that?

Further, check exact dates, year by year and point by point, of when the R/C’s supposedly changed this & that in Scripture, with accurate verification of dates. The RC DID NOT WRITE TEXTUS RECEPTUS, get better information! Yes, they have their own Bible, rewritten of course, but it isn’t Textus Receptus. How do we know this? Because Textus Receptus seriously, repeatedly and continuously disagrees directly in the face of countless RC doctrines, proving them to be imagined, and second intentionally false & fraudulent! Further, in the beginning of the R/C the doctrines were quite compatible with current Christian overall doctrine, but the church was ordered as the ‘<st1

laceName w:st="on">Official</st1

laceName> <st1

laceType w:st="on">Church</st1

laceType> of the <st1

lace w:st="on">Roman Empire</st1

lace>’. [that’s pretty fascinating to research] Their changes were later in time, step by step as darkness crept in, with various popes [some of whom bought their position for cash, and one of whom was female, and one was a child!] plus Vatican Councils like <st1:City w:st="on"><st1

lace w:st="on">Trent</st1

lace></st1:City> making official changes. Check the dates of those Vatican Councils, please? By the way, one, the last, was never officially closed or adjourned, and still stands open, rather ominous itself! Don’t scare me hah!

Hey, brother, we stand together in opinion on the wicked corruptions over the centuries by the R/C church! I was RAISED RC and ‘schooled’ as in brainwashed by them and worked directly for the Bishop of Church Diocese! One of my bosses was a switch-hitter Jesuit of high degree.

But ask yourself: Why has my church CHANGED what the oldest & authenticated manuscripts say? Why have they changed the actual words of the apostles and disciples? Why, if their JW Translation was holy, true, inspired of God, and gotten from the only right interpretation: why did they then CHANGE EVEN WHAT THEY HAD SAID PREVIOUSLY in their subsequent issues of that Bible!??? Do you know how many times your JW translation has been ‘Revised’, yet again?

I’ve had very dear friends [gone now] who were JW’s and they showed me and I saw how that church set them up to dominate every single aspect of their lives, especially their FINANCE$, in every way, such that they weren’t even allowed to live or think freely!

A TRUE <st1

lace w:st="on"><st1

laceType w:st="on">church</st1

laceType> of <st1

laceName w:st="on">Jesus Christ</st1

laceName></st1

lace> welcomes [polite!] questions regarding their doctrine of belief: because it’s a marvelous opportunity to further explain the wonder of God’s Truth! They’re just as interested & concerned that their beliefs are true as you are! A true <st1

lace w:st="on"><st1

laceType w:st="on">church</st1

laceType> of <st1

laceName w:st="on">Jesus Christ</st1

laceName></st1

lace> must base the doctrinal belief on what? The Word of God! Will your church warmly welcome your questioning of what source their ‘revelations’ for changes come from? Of what source they actually used for their ‘translation’ of Scripture?

Translation, genuine translation, is taking original words in one language and faithfully, accurately, precisely rendering them in another language; that as much as possible the original message comes through undefiled. Anybody with common sense knows that, and you have common sense and a keen mind! Why then if that is genuine translation, did your church refuse to do that?

Ask them EXACTLY WHERE they got THEIR ‘better’ information from? What source, traced back to Holy God’s apostles & disciples, did their ‘New revelations’ come from? And hey, though I know you aren’t allowed to question there: Ask for precise verification of the Credentials of those who first added & subtracted from original manuscripts to give you a hugely changed Bible?

Ask them where their AUTHORITY to CHANGE the words of Scripture came from?? Ask them why the main focus of that series of changes is to destroy the concept of the Deity of Jesus Christ? How come that in particular, above anything else?

While you're at it, within Apostolic Succession, ask them where their Ordination of priests originated, as who in the church was first ordained by direct succession from God’s appointed anointed apostles & disciples??

Did it by any chance start with a guy who loudly & famously disputed in the newspapers and with handout tracts almost everything God says in Scripture, and who then ‘Ordained’ himself? Were his noisy OPINIONS on what the ‘truth’ of God’s Word says coming from a strong knowledge of Scripture and Hebrew language, Greek language, Hebrew & Greek grammar and lexical mastery? Or was he instead uneducated and Scripturally illiterate with a 7<SUP>th</SUP> grade education who couldn’t read either language, or even identify and describe the letters of the Greek alphabet when challenged in court under oath, while being sued for fraud??

After they throw you out for daring question their sources & authority you can stay at my place for a while, I’ll feed you too!

JDFree · Dec 7, 2010

Why should you have gotten "hot under the collar" ? What you wrote was illogical. Your "explanation" of Hebrews 5:7 already shows a lack of evidence, but rather a strongly biased personal opinion, for you state, as if it true that, "First clue:He was still the Son of God and God." You present it as fact, when in fact, this is a teaching of the churches that began to be accepted as a "truth" almost 300 years after Jesus death, starting with the Council Of Nicea in 325 C.E. If the trinity is true, then why did it take some 350 years to become part of Christian "doctrine", starting with the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. that began to formulate the trinity <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
doctrine ?

* Wrong! That teaching originated in the first book, in the first chapter, in the first 2 sentences of Genesis as penned by Moses, to whom God spoke directly numerous times! Note very closely: ANY reference to the Trinity hidden in Old Testament is beyond corruption, because God and His chosen people protected it with their lives, and they still have their own copies as Torah, with Moses’ Pentateuch! In addition, the Jews emphatically proclaim the verse from Deuteronomy 6:4 to silence the Christian beliefs, “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is ONE God…” because they adamantly refuse to believe in a Trinity themselves, so they sure wouldn’t have hidden it in their own Scripture!

Jesus taught concerning "God's kingdom"(Luke 8:1), and following his death in 33 C.E., was being preached throughout Israel (Acts 8:12), and later in Asia Minor by the apostle Paul.(Acts 28:31) Why was the "kingdom of God" taught so clearly right after Jesus death, but it took some 350 years for the trinity doctrine to make headway ? Only in 392 C.E., Emperor Theodosius I made orthodox Catholicism with its Trinity doctrine the State religion of the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on">Roman Empire</st1lace>.

* All of your understanding there is based on your Jehovah’s Witness ‘translation’ of Scripture, in which they’ve systematically removed every single reference to Trinity or Deity of Jesus! But, in your own JW Bible, they missed a few in Old Testament due to their lack of understanding of same! As I’ve proven several times in these forums, the Trinity is not a ‘New’ doctrine at all. Why? Because the disciples & apostles of Jesus Christ clearly proclaim in the New Testament, describing while He was alive and after, from the Textus Receptus, which same Manuscripts directly disagree with countless erroneous Roman Catholic doctrines! Further, as mentioned, Textus Receptus is fully verified by Dead Sea Scrolls, hidden from outside influence for countless centuries!

“ in 392 C.E., Emperor Theodosius I made orthodox Catholicism with its Trinity doctrine the State religion of the <st1lace w:st="on">Roman Empire</st1lace>.”

* Entirely wrong! Emperor Constantine in 312 AD declared by Official Roman Edict that the Christian Faith would be the <st1

laceName w:st="on">Official</st1

laceName> <st1

laceType w:st="on">Church</st1

laceType> of the Roman Empire following his conversion after the battle at the <st1

lace w:st="on"><st1

laceName w:st="on">Milivian</st1

laceName> <st1

laceType w:st="on">Bridge</st1

laceType></st1

lace>. He did not specifically make the Trinity Doctrine the official belief, just the practice of Christianity, as it existed in that time. However, at that time, and since the beginning of the church in Christ’s time, and all the way back to Genesis 1:2 in the Pentateuch of Moses, before Adam and Eve and Eden, Trinity was not ‘doctrine’ but the basic substance of the Faith!

If that is true, that Jesus is God, then why does Jesus worship the Father at John 4:22 and then say that "God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth" ?(John 4:24) Some 65 years later, when Jesus had already returned to heaven, Jesus says: "The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine."(Rev 3:12) How can Jesus be God and yet say this, especially after having returned to heaven ?

* Jesus worships the Father because, in case you didn’t pick up on it, He was born as a MAN, as in HUMAN, and the Son of man worships His Father God. We must worship in ‘Spirit’ and in ‘Truth’ because we are engaged in spiritual conversation within worship, and because, to those who have knowledge of Him, it also describes Holy Spirit as our Spirit of worship, and Jesus Christ as our doorway of Truth by which we know Him whom we worship as Father, WHICH AGAIN DESCRIBES THE TRINITY!

“He that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and I will write on him my new name.”

God is God, we agree on that hah! Well, as Jesus speaks there even within His position within the Trinity, and maybe to say even moreso within His position in the Trinity: What would happen if He decided the Entity of God was NOT HIS GOD?!!!! Talking cataclysmic explosion of the universe and the God who holds it together! Jesus MUST believe in ‘His God’ because it’s a Living part of His Being! His Father as a part of God, just like His Spirit, must form the basic substance of His Belief as God, else He as God would cease to exist!

Very gross example, but say I was co-owner & co-administrator of a corporation, with 2 others owner/administrators as well. “As President I command that you must honor my Other President and my other Other President in every way!” Still jointly One Corporation, and I’m still President over all, but there’s more to the picture than meets the eye.

Following his baptism in 29 C.E., Jesus told Satan (quoting from Deut 5:9): "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matt 4:10) As an example of the trinity's development, Plato’s ideas about God and nature influenced Christendom’s Trinity doctrine. Explains the “Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel”: “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”(Volume 2, page 1467)

* What Scriptural proof that Jesus was baptised in 29 AD? Did you get that from a secular dictionary too??

“Then Jesus saith unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.” Matthew 4:10

New Testament in Textus Receptus, majority texts, all non-Jehovah’s Witness Scripture does not say ‘Jehovah’. That's a Hebrew name inserted incorrectly, just like all other mentions of 'Jehovah' in JW Bible. The name Jehovah is only found 4 times in the entire Bible, even in the Old Testament, in Exodus 6:3, Psalms 83:18, Isaiah 12:2 and 26:24 and nowhere else in Scripture. That is, except in the incorrect JW Bible mis-translation, as a word added, that wasn’t there in the MS texts! The correct Greek word found is Kurios, as being Supreme in authority, or Controller, or God, or Lord, or Master. Jesus didn’t speak Hebrew language to the devil, but Aramaic Greek.

Jesus is there testifying, as Son of God AND Son of man, to the authority of Scripture & God. Jesus in the wilderness was tested by Satan, as Satan testing the Son of man, Jesus Christ, come in the FLESH! But. Contrary to JW thought denying the Deity of Jesus, He responds in a way clearly demonstrating that what Satan is doing is wrong: why? Because he is NOT WORSHIPPING OR SERVING JESUS AS GOD by what he is doing. Your Scripture verse therefore backfires in eternal flames of fire on JW doctrines in several ways.

The Encyclopedia Americana comments: "Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian (believing in one God). The road which led from <st1:City w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Jerusalem</st1lace></st1:City> to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."(1956 Vol. XXVII, p. 294)

* Sir, I do not base the doctrine of my Belief on the Encyclopedia Americana [though it sounds interesting and I love encyclopedias!] or any other secular sources for their concepts of what Christianity consists of. My Sole authority for my eternal soul is Scripture, nothing but, and in as accurate a version of same as is available, without added words [not described there as added] deceitfully inserted [to push a non-trinitarian agenda] or incorrectly translated by a committee of men. I don’t care a hoot for what secular sources describe Christian belief as, because they lack deplorably and will hardly be the Almighty Judge of all.

>You also try to discount accurate wording, such as at Matthew 3:17, whereby it says: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”(New World Translation, "well pleased", King James Bible) The Greek word at the end is eudokeo, and means "to think well of, i.e. approve (an act)"[Strong's Concordance # G2106] Hence, God ' approved ' of Jesus baptism, and thus identified Jesus as, not God, but as his Son.

* Right, but the whole thing hinges on the fact that Jesus is continually described as Son of God, and also with a separate distinction for His same person, as Son of man, directing us in our understanding of full meaning of particular verses. Additionally, the Trinity Doctrine gives God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit as One God, not as being disconnected Beings, so the Son of God is 100% agreeable to Holy Trinity Doctrine. God speaks from heaven and says that Jesus is His Son, in whom He is well pleased: no added interpretation needed!

You are the type that no amount of evidence will alter your thinking, but rather become angry and rationalize (and twisting) every scripture in order to fit a trinitarian belief. After this, I will keep "on topic" with any more information, as I have no desire to derail this thread.

I’m the type that no amount of invented, manufactured suppositions or fabricated incorrect wording put forward by any man will outweight that which is plainly stated numerous times in unadulterated Holy Scripture! I twist? No, I read what was delivered to the disciples of Jesus Christ, and in seeing, I believe. The word Jehovah is contained NOWHERE in ANY New Testament Manuscripts, none at all: but how many times do you find it in your distorted JW 'New Testament' texts??? Who is twisting TRUTH there, with an outright lie as to what Scripture TRULY says, by adding words NOT THERE to intentionally distort meaning??

Jaareshiah · Dec 10, 2010

I felt compelled to respond, for the sake of those who read this forum. The trinity doctrine had not "originated in the first book, in the first chapter, in the first two verse of Genesis." At Deuteronomy 6:4, just before the nation of Israel entered the land of Canaan in 1473 B.C.E., Moses said: "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:"(American Standard Version, Literally, “Jehovah our God [is] Jehovah one.” Hebrew, Yehwah´ ’Elo·heh´nu Yehwah´ ’e·chadh´ ) At Deuteronomy 32:39, God told the nation of Israel, that "there is no god with me."(Deut 32:39, King James Bible) This could not be true if God was composed of a triad or trinity.

At Isaiah 42:8, God said: "I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images." Thus, the Jews clearly recognized that Jehovah God was "one Jehovah" and not a triad of gods, as in the land of Egypt from which they had left some 40 years earlier, in which there were many triads of gods, such as the trinity or triad of Osiris, Isis (his wife), and Horus (his son). They also realized that "to no one else ", except to Jehovah God, was worship to be given.

In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity (1881), it stated: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief." (pg 16)

The New Catholic Encyclopedia makes a similar statement regarding the origin of the Trinity: "There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma ‘one God in three Persons’ became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought. . . .The formula itself does not reflect the immediate consciousness of the period of origins; it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development."(1967, Volume XVI, pg 295)

Up till Constantine, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea in 325 C.E. About 300, a fraction of the total of about 1800, actually attended. Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church (1967): “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.”

Constantine (incriminated in the murder of no less than seven close friends and relatives, including his wife Faustus and his firstborn son Crispus) figured in events that led to the development of a state religion disguised as “Christianity.” The book History of the Middle Ages concludes: “The execution—not to say murder—of his own son and his wife indicates that he was untouched by any spiritual influence in Christianity.”

The Catholic Encyclopedia (pg 299) observes: “Constantine showed equal favour to both religions (of his empire, both pagan sun-worship, and so called "Christian"). As pontifex maximus he watched over the heathen worship and protected its rights.” “Constantine never became a Christian,” the encyclopedia Hidria states, adding: “Eusebius of Caesarea, who wrote his biography, says that he became a Christian in the last moments of his life. This doesn’t hold water, as the day before, [Constantine] had made a sacrifice to Zeus because he also had the title Pontifex Maximus.”

Though Constantine made so-called "Christianity" a "friend", there was still divisions within his empire. This is one reason why he called the "bishops" to the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. to settle the dispute between Arianism and the Athanasians, causing a rift in his empire.(Both Athanasius, an archdeacon of the church in Alexandria, and Arius, was a deacon in the same church). The Latin West, with its headquarters in Rome, was almost wholly Athanasian, whereas the Hellenized or Grecianized Eastern part of the Roman Empire was largely Arian, with its headquarters eventually at Constantinople.

After Constantine, Emperor Julian (361-363 C.E.) made an attempt to oppose Christianity and restore paganism. But he failed, and some 20 years later, Emperor Theodosius I banned paganism and imposed Trinitarian “Christianity” as the State religion of the Roman Empire. With adroit precision, French historian Henri Marrou (1904-77) wrote: “By the end of the reign of Theodosius (in 395 C.E.), Christianity, or to be more precise, orthodox Catholicism, became the official religion of the entire Roman world.” (Christian Centuries: First Six Hundred Years )

Thus, pagan doctrines, such as the trinity, was now becoming acceptable, being back by the Roman Empire. At the Council of Nicaea, the doctrine of the trinity was not established, for it only stipulated that Jesus and God the Father were one. The council meant that the Son and the Father were one numerically, still not a Trinity. It would only be a two-in-one God, not three-in-one as required by the Trinity doctrine. Only later, in 381 C.E., at the Council of Constantinople was the holy spirit now factored into the "equation" of a triad "Godhead". Thus, for the trinity to come into full focus, "it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development," with Roman Emperor Theodosius I making Catholicism the State religion, with it's trinity doctrine.

El Hombre viejo · Dec 10, 2010

Jaareshiah said:
I felt compelled to respond, for the sake of those who read this forum. The trinity doctrine had not "originated in the first book, in the first chapter, in the first two verse of Genesis." At Deuteronomy 6:4, just before the nation of Israel entered the land of Canaan in 1473 B.C.E., Moses said: "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:"(American Standard Version, Literally, “Jehovah our God [is] Jehovah one.” Hebrew, Yehwah´ ’Elo·heh´nu Yehwah´ ’e·chadh´ ) At Deuteronomy 32:39, God told the nation of Israel, that "there is no god with me."(Deut 32:39, King James Bible) This could not be true if God was composed of a triad or trinity.

At Isaiah 42:8, God said: "I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images." Thus, the Jews clearly recognized that Jehovah God was "one Jehovah" and not a triad of gods, as in the land of Egypt from which they had left some 40 years earlier, in which there were many triads of gods, such as the trinity or triad of Osiris, Isis (his wife), and Horus (his son). They also realized that "to no one else ", except to Jehovah God, was worship to be given.

In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity (1881), it stated: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief." (pg 16)

The New Catholic Encyclopedia makes a similar statement regarding the origin of the Trinity: "There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma ‘one God in three Persons’ became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought. . . .The formula itself does not reflect the immediate consciousness of the period of origins; it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development."(1967, Volume XVI, pg 295)

Up till Constantine, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea in 325 C.E. About 300, a fraction of the total of about 1800, actually attended. Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church (1967): “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.”

Constantine (incriminated in the murder of no less than seven close friends and relatives, including his wife Faustus and his firstborn son Crispus) figured in events that led to the development of a state religion disguised as “Christianity.” The book History of the Middle Ages concludes: “The execution—not to say murder—of his own son and his wife indicates that he was untouched by any spiritual influence in Christianity.”

The Catholic Encyclopedia (pg 299) observes: “Constantine showed equal favour to both religions (of his empire, both pagan sun-worship, and so called "Christian"). As pontifex maximus he watched over the heathen worship and protected its rights.” “Constantine never became a Christian,” the encyclopedia Hidria states, adding: “Eusebius of Caesarea, who wrote his biography, says that he became a Christian in the last moments of his life. This doesn’t hold water, as the day before, [Constantine] had made a sacrifice to Zeus because he also had the title Pontifex Maximus.”

Though Constantine made so-called "Christianity" a "friend", there was still divisions within his empire. This is one reason why he called the "bishops" to the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. to settle the dispute between Arianism and the Athanasians, causing a rift in his empire.(Both Athanasius, an archdeacon of the church in Alexandria, and Arius, was a deacon in the same church). The Latin West, with its headquarters in Rome, was almost wholly Athanasian, whereas the Hellenized or Grecianized Eastern part of the Roman Empire was largely Arian, with its headquarters eventually at Constantinople.

After Constantine, Emperor Julian (361-363 C.E.) made an attempt to oppose Christianity and restore paganism. But he failed, and some 20 years later, Emperor Theodosius I banned paganism and imposed Trinitarian “Christianity” as the State religion of the Roman Empire. With adroit precision, French historian Henri Marrou (1904-77) wrote: “By the end of the reign of Theodosius (in 395 C.E.), Christianity, or to be more precise, orthodox Catholicism, became the official religion of the entire Roman world.” (Christian Centuries: First Six Hundred Years )

Thus, pagan doctrines, such as the trinity, was now becoming acceptable, being back by the Roman Empire. At the Council of Nicaea, the doctrine of the trinity was not established, for it only stipulated that Jesus and God the Father were one. The council meant that the Son and the Father were one numerically, still not a Trinity. It would only be a two-in-one God, not three-in-one as required by the Trinity doctrine. Only later, in 381 C.E., at the Council of Constantinople was the holy spirit now factored into the "equation" of a triad "Godhead". Thus, for the trinity to come into full focus, "it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development," with Roman Emperor Theodosius I making Catholicism the State religion, with it's trinity doctrine.

Actually the trinity doctrine, along with many church doctrines, is no more than a rabbit trail. Its not an important issue.. What is important is that we live in obedience to what God says rather than fight over things we have no way of understanding. Focus people! Focus on the things you can understand like walking in knowledge of Him. God you can know. Trinity you cannot conceive of.

JDFree · Dec 11, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
Actually the trinity doctrine, along with many church doctrines, is no more than a rabbit trail. Its not an important issue.. What is important is that we live in obedience to what God says rather than fight over things we have no way of understanding. Focus people! Focus on the things you can understand like walking in knowledge of Him. God you can know. Trinity you cannot conceive of.

Hey, now wait a minute there, EHV! I happen to have full understanding & complete mastery of the deepest concepts of the Trinity, HAAAAAH! NOT!

However I do believe it's important to know OF, to see a glimpse of the Garment, of how very, very far above us the Magnificent Trinity of God is, but agree 100%, not something given for our actual understanding. But the other matter within it, is to be aware [not understanding of] of it, because it's pretty hard to explain Jesus coming as Son of God yet Son of man, being both simultaneously, and being raised from death in resurrection, without seeing the Trinity as an integral part of it. Also to explain Father speaking from heaven declaring the Diety of Jesus.

But again, far, far beyond me to fully grasp!

Thanks!

JDFree · Dec 11, 2010

Jaareshiah:
>>>I felt compelled to respond, for the sake of those who read this forum. The trinity doctrine had not "originated in the first book, in the first chapter, in the first two verse of Genesis." At Deuteronomy 6:4, just before the nation of Israel entered the land of Canaan in 1473 B.C.E., Moses said: "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:"(American Standard Version, Literally, "Jehovah our God [is] Jehovah one." Hebrew, Yehwah´ ’Elo·heh´nu Yehwah´ ’e·chadh´ ) At Deuteronomy 32:39, God told the nation of Israel, that "there is no god with me."(Deut 32:39, King James Bible) This could not be true if God was composed of a triad or trinity.

JDFree:
Basic, very basic: There the Lord is making it clear, at least to them if not you, there is no OTHER Elohiym, meaning Supreme God, with Him! He is stating that He, the I AM Elohiym, is the single, only, Almighty Lord God of all, with the ONLY power over life & death! He is saying clearly, that any other 'god' is a usurper, a pretender to the genuine heavenly Throne and Him who sits upon it! In addition, He says there is no Elohiym with Him, as other than, or besides Him, right? So by that He is stating He is the only Elohiym, right? Correct??

So, did you research enough to discover that Elohiym used there is the PLURAL form for God, literally saying God plural? The One talking IS Elohiym, PLURAL Elohiym, as the Plural more than one Trinity of God speaking! See if you can pick a better one, that doesn't disprove your own argument. While you're at it, research to see how many times & in what instances Elohiym PLURAL is used by God to refer to himself! Strongs has it listed as #430 in Hebrew/Chaldee dictionary, and I found over 200 entries in Genesis alone, Elohiym, and it is the primary word by which God describes himself as PLURAL in the Old Testament!

Jaareshiah:
>>> At Isaiah 42:8, God said: "I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images." Thus, the Jews clearly recognized that Jehovah God was "one Jehovah" and not a triad of gods, as in the land of Egypt from which they had left some 40 years earlier, in which there were many triads of gods, such as the trinity or triad of Osiris, Isis (his wife), and Horus (his son). They also realized that "to no one else ", except to Jehovah God, was worship to be given.

JDFree:
Hey, I never said the Jews BELIEVED in the Trinity! My brothers & siters there would still stone me to death if they could get away with it for referring to their sacred God in such a 'profane' way! No, I do say that it was written in plain sight in their own sacred Scripture of Torah but they were too blind to see! That's who is spoken to in Isaiah 42:18, "Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see."

Isaiah 42 is the first of 4 'Servant Songs' given by Isaiah, another in 49, and in 52, and in 53, all referring to the self-same Servant, but they don't sound like songs to us of course. The word form for 'Lord' used in Isaiah 42:8 is Jehovah, but that's not an explanation - let's all go home now. You left out the entire context of the verses in chapter 42, which throughout describes Jesus Christ, from 42:1, "Behold my servant whom I uphold, mine elect, in whom my Soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon Him: He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." It's written throughout New Testament that only Jesus will be the final Judge, and before His judgment seat ALL will stand: you, me & everybody else, and that God has put His Spirit upon Him, seen when Jesus was baptized by John and the appearance of a Dove descended on Him. This Servant is said to be an individual, a person, in Isaiah 52:13-53:12. The language in ch 42 is in the objective, such that Isaiah is nowhere referring to himself, and whomever is spoken of is Divine God as the Final Judge of mankind.

"He shall not cry, or lift up His voice..." 42:2 [as Jesus when He was crucified], "...He shall bring forth Judgment unto Truth..." Is 42:3, "He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for His Law. Is 42:4, Thus saith God the Lord, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out, He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people in it, and spirit to them that walk therein:" Is 42:5

Because of the clear references to Him bringing forth Judgment: God speaks of Jesus as God! Saying, "...His Law..." defines that it must be God that God is here speaking of!

"I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and will give thee for a Covenant of the people, for a Light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the Lord, that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Is 42:6-9

Described as Righteous, yet no man is righteous, only God. He is given for a 'Covenant', and that's what the New Testament is called, the 'New Covenant' because of Jesus, who was given as Jesus the Covenant in His blood on the cross.

So, in the rest of Isaiah 42, studied in order to bring your subject verse into proper context, we find God the Lord, that created the heavens & earth and all that in them is, referring to Someone else, who is His Servant, who will bring Judgment, and His Laws onto earth. That would be incomprehensible if it was speaking of a singular God, as one Being, because we know from other Scripture that the Creator is also the Law Giver! But we see clearly, it isn't saying one singular Being God! No, it is clearly God Creator, speaking about God the Judge & Law Giver of HIS own Laws, that is, they are the Servant's Laws, the Covenant's Laws, yet the Laws were given by whom? Yes, God! This Servant will be the Final Judge, who must be God, clearly written, and New Testament tells time & again, Jesus is the Final Judge. But, in addition, God here speaks of himself as Creator, but throughout New Testament, Jesus is described as Creator, all the way through the final book of Revelation to John: so God here MUST BE speaking about God, and they 'both' are the SAME God, plus He has mentioned 'His Spirit', the Holy Spirit who is God, so it is a fine description of the Trinity, thanks!!

Jaareshiah:
>>>In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity (1881), it stated: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief." (pg 16)

JDFree:
Gibbons speaks from a secular view, because throughout the New Testament, and from the mouths of the writers of it, and from the disciples in the 1st & 2nd century, the Trinity was described continuously as their firm belief and a basic tenet of faith in Jesus Christ. Why? Because the Sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is just another dead guy in Rome, if Jesus is not God, the Son of God!

Jaareshiah:
>>>The New Catholic Encyclopedia makes a similar statement regarding the origin of the Trinity: "There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma ‘one God in three Persons’ became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought. . . .The formula itself does not reflect the immediate consciousness of the period of origins; it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development."(1967, Volume XVI, pg 295)

JDFree:
Roman Catholic Encyclopedia?? No comment. But yes, a BIG rabbit hole here alright, and below! Just bluff & fluff to sell your FALSE DOCTRINE that claims Jesus is not God! Beats me as to what value there is in studying the results of secular Imperial Roman governance over the original catholic church of Jesus, or their views on anything. For Truth, go to the Word of Truth, spoken by God, Jesus Christ: the Bible itself! And for a change, use a Bible firmly based on earliest verified Manuscripts, instead of an invented Jehovah's Witness barbarized re-written corruption of same. Jesus is God, and there's absolutely NOTHING you can do about it!

Jaareshiah:
>>>Up till Constantine, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea in 325 C.E. About 300, a fraction of the total of about 1800, actually attended. Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church (1967): "Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians."
Constantine (incriminated in the murder of no less than seven close friends and relatives, including his wife Faustus and his firstborn son Crispus) figured in events that led to the development of a state religion disguised as "Christianity." The book History of the Middle Ages concludes: "The execution—not to say murder—of his own son and his wife indicates that he was untouched by any spiritual influence in Christianity."
The Catholic Encyclopedia (pg 299) observes: "Constantine showed equal favour to both religions (of his empire, both pagan sun-worship, and so called "Christian"). As pontifex maximus he watched over the heathen worship and protected its rights." "Constantine never became a Christian," the encyclopedia Hidria states, adding: "Eusebius of Caesarea, who wrote his biography, says that he became a Christian in the last moments of his life. This doesn’t hold water, as the day before, [Constantine] had made a sacrifice to Zeus because he also had the title Pontifex Maximus."
Though Constantine made so-called "Christianity" a "friend", there was still divisions within his empire. This is one reason why he called the "bishops" to the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. to settle the dispute between Arianism and the Athanasians, causing a rift in his empire.(Both Athanasius, an archdeacon of the church in Alexandria, and Arius, was a deacon in the same church). The Latin West, with its headquarters in Rome, was almost wholly Athanasian, whereas the Hellenized or Grecianized Eastern part of the Roman Empire was largely Arian, with its headquarters eventually at Constantinople.
After Constantine, Emperor Julian (361-363 C.E.) made an attempt to oppose Christianity and restore paganism. But he failed, and some 20 years later, Emperor Theodosius I banned paganism and imposed Trinitarian "Christianity" as the State religion of the Roman Empire. With adroit precision, French historian Henri Marrou (1904-77) wrote: "By the end of the reign of Theodosius (in 395 C.E.), Christianity, or to be more precise, orthodox Catholicism, became the official religion of the entire Roman world." (Christian Centuries: First Six Hundred Years )
Thus, pagan doctrines, such as the trinity, was now becoming acceptable, being back by the Roman Empire. At the Council of Nicaea, the doctrine of the trinity was not established, for it only stipulated that Jesus and God the Father were one. The council meant that the Son and the Father were one numerically, still not a Trinity. It would only be a two-in-one God, not three-in-one as required by the Trinity doctrine. Only later, in 381 C.E., at the Council of Constantinople was the holy spirit now factored into the "equation" of a triad "Godhead". Thus, for the trinity to come into full focus, "it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development," with Roman Emperor Theodosius I making Catholicism the State religion, with it's trinity doctrine

jiggyfly · Dec 11, 2010

Back on topic, I asked nicely and it was ignored, so now any posts made that are not directly relating to the OP are going to be deleted.

RJ · Dec 11, 2010

The Garden of Eden was a state of perfection. If Adam an Eve had not sinned, there is a good chance that we all would be in Eden still but, I am sure than one of us would have messed up anyway and changed the coarse of man anyway.

El Hombre viejo · Dec 11, 2010

JDFree said:
Hey, now wait a minute there, EHV! I happen to have full understanding & complete mastery of the deepest concepts of the Trinity, HAAAAAH! NOT!

However I do believe it's important to know OF, to see a glimpse of the Garment, of how very, very far above us the Magnificent Trinity of God is, but agree 100%, not something given for our actual understanding. But the other matter within it, is to be aware [not understanding of] of it, because it's pretty hard to explain Jesus coming as Son of God yet Son of man, being both simultaneously, and being raised from death in resurrection, without seeing the Trinity as an integral part of it. Also to explain Father speaking from heaven declaring the Diety of Jesus.

But again, far, far beyond me to fully grasp!

Thanks!

Now now! JD You can't have mastery over the knowledge of the trinity. I have that. You can have second place ok? LOL
All we need to know of the trinity is; Father Son and Holy Spirit make up God. How they are one and how they are three separate is so far beyond our ken we'll never understand till we see first hand. Kinda cool hey? Surprises to come! Ya We do know of but not how. I like mysteries too.

Um...In case I wasn't clear? I agreed with you. (I just woke up)

El Hombre viejo · Dec 11, 2010

jiggyfly said:
Back on topic, I asked nicely and it was ignored, so now any posts made that are not directly relating to the OP are going to be deleted.

:shock: Jigger! Are you all right?

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