Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

[JDFree]

Well, sir, I really don't much care what name it has been given by men, when in fact it is the view held in God's Word according to nearly all books of Scripture and is personally spoken and described by Jesus. It may not mesh well with a 'church doctrine' created by men, but is such manmade 'doctrine' intended by God to be our primary source of influence? Yes, one can choose not to believe the verses cited, and dozens upon dozens of others [I can provide cross references to other verses] but why? Could it be 'self' rearing it's ugly head again, or the self of several men compiled into a doctrine? I did not say I or you would want to hear it, only that such is as it is.

When I consider the potential for loss and the penalty for satisfying worldly lusts, preferring the desires of self and ego over the Gift of Salvation, I shudder deep in my soul. I will never take a church's doctrinal position as my own without first surely proving it myself, beyond any shadow of doubt whatsoever, by Scripture: the Word of Truth of my Almighty Holy God.

Just what is 'damnation'? Some think it's an endless party in a different world of hell forever with Satan reigning as host & king over the celebrations, reveling in every lewd debauchery, perversion & wickedness for all the rest of eternity. Others imagine that death will only bring that, and once over, ho-hum, that's it. Others believe in some mysterious purgatorial place of penance that after 'doing their time' and with the prayers of those still living on earth, they will then be released to heaven's rewards. That is they believe they can somehow purge [in 'Purgatory'] their own 'mortal & venial' sins and then heap to themselves the riches of heaven. Yet others believe in a translation of the spirit to a place of great joyful spiritual omnipotent oneness with some mystical universal life being existence; while others look forward to rebirth as a swift running gazelle or soaring eagle instead of a sewer rat or a microbe in a pile of camel excrement.

According to Scripture this Life is a Gift of the Entity of God, given from His own substance of Life in His Beings. If a man chooses to separate himself from God he has then decided to separate himself from the Entity of God in His Beings forever; to cast away eternal Life in God, and choosing instead eternal death without end. That is death without end: as a conscious ongoing death experience, not just a matter of ‘POOF’ going up in a vapor and gone.

In another day all Life will be drawn back in to God's Life in His Heaven of heavens, and we in it; having chosen to live for Him as the eternal bride of Christ, as one flesh with Him for eternity. The lower heavens will be rolled up as a scroll.

The 'others' as the damned in death will exist as cognizant, thinking beings but in a void of lifeless & motionless darkness forever. By the complex Physical Law created by God, as one of Entropy found in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, we find that at the end of motion, when all available energy for motion is consumned, the leftovers result only in heat; fervent heat as a flame of fire forever. God has caused that energy may neither be created nor destroyed, because its Source is His own Entity of God.

Therefore this eternal entropic heat may never be quenched. There will be insufficient energy given there by God to cause or allow motion; but still enough residuals of entropic energy after motion’s work remaining to cause fervent expended heat forever. That's because there will be nowhere for this energy to transfer to, as to a heat sink by conduction, or by convection or other cooling transferrence effect, or even any other place for it to travel to at all. It shall remain right where it is forever. It with all its resident beings will all be cast off from the presence of God as He draws all of His Truth of Life in Love Energy into himself, along with all those beings who have chosen that Life in Love as their own!

The rest inherit an empty void of shapeless nothingness immersed in fiery heat of spent energy as entropy for all of their days forever. By God’s design and Will just enough energy for intellect & spirit of those will continue in a black, smoldering, motionless void of horror, receiving only that chief desire of their heart: self, and only self alone in their own soul’s being to contemplate their decision for all of eternity into the trillions of years of forever.

It is to me incomprehensible to imagine an eternal existence of trillions times trillions of years of motionless, formless, powerless, totally silent, utter blackness of emptiness beyond description, burning in flames of fire without even the ability to cry out or turn away in any way! Not even one cool drop of water will exist to quench the mind’s insatiable thirst.

The only miniscule consolation, for some, is that their entropic existence is that which results from their own work of motion in the world before death. For some this is very bad news, due to their extreme activity in ungodly things. For others as various levels of couch potatoes in life the heat will be less according to their lesser energies spent in wickedness. Again, because energy can neither be created or destroyed, God simply [for Him] saves up all of man's energies from their activities in the desires of their hearts throughout life and then returns it to them for all of eternity of death, minus the motion energy spent.

Therefore the penalty of suffering in hell is directly proportional to a man's activites in life. Of course this includes the energies of thoughts and imagination, so no doubt there will be some very intense hot spots here & there throughout hell. No reason whatsoever to believe that there will be any social or other interaction at all with other beings there after death, because any energy required for that, even that needed for maintenance of a form & shape let alone motions, will be denied.

Elementary science: but the man inherits the exact eternal reward that he most desired in life: SELF! That is enjoyed as a spent empty shell consumned in fire with an eternal intellect which may hear [nothingness] see [nothingness] experience & feel nothing but intense heat forever while he cogitates over his life's decisions for a very, very, very long time.

Yes, that’s ‘Hell’ allright!
JDFree

 

[JDFree]

We may see too, within that above, that a man's desires in his heart of hearts for the self and the physical world inherits exactly that: self in the smoldering leftovers of the physical world! That's actually the problem of course, because this thing of entropic heat is only found here, not in God's Heaven of heavens!

The entropic function is a result of the fall of man in the garden of Eden, along with other changes in the physical laws of the world occurring at that time. After the 'heavens will be rolled up as a scroll' as in gathered to 'self' in layers, and all that of the universe's forms & shapes has been burnt to nothingness, there remains that place of hell.

In the meantime there's a large parking place called variously Gehenna or Hades, filled with the souls of the dead departed non-believers, that will one day be poured out into the depths of the actual place of hell.

So it is that man who wanted only self and the pleasures of the physical world inherits those exact desires of his heart for all of eternity, because God treats all men equally and blesses all in their desires.

"Why would a God of love send men to hell?!!!"

He doesn't! He doesn't have to and doesn't want to: men send themselves! Our eternal destiny is left entirely up to us. Therefore choose wisely, and ever labor towards the Light of His eternal Joy in Jesus Christ our Lord forever.

 

[JDFree]

A bit more:
I find some value in some of the view of Arminius but I am not an adherent of Arminianism. I disagree with the thought that there is absolutely nothing we can do to contribute to our own salvation. Though I believe all are saved only by the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God at Calvary, I read in Scripture that it is not a matter of simply raising a hand and proclaiming, then maybe getting dunked, sprinkled or otherwise moistened, and to go happily on our way in life.

For a fact we find a considerable amount of self effort, actually the effort of relinquishing self, applied to one's salvation as described in the pages of Scripture. My belief is that we receive it only by the Perfect Sacrifice on the cross of Jesus, but that it requires ongoing, conscious, determined and sometimes very extreme action to remain within that blessing. As mentioned, this is referred to in nearly every book of the Bible, authored by the Holy Spirit of God working through men, and that is an example. Were it not for these men actively engaged in that joyful work of penning the thoughts of their Christian hearts we'd have nought but some word of mouth explanations for the facts of God for the last 20 centuries.

Because of man's damnable self's perversions in wickedness the many heresies already seen would have been seen a hundredfold or thousands times more since Christ, that countless souls would have been lost into eternal perdition! Therefore it is somewhat by their work, in penning the Word of God laid out in their hearts, that this contribution leads to countless salvations in God's own perfect plan. We are told in the Bible innumerable times to exercise faith, hope, love, charity, beneficence, kindness, gentleness, a meek spirit, honesty & truth, faithfulness to God, diligence, patience, perserverance, and so much more as the visible actions of our heart in good works laid at the foot of the cross.

We are said in Scripture to be potential future recipients of crowns in heaven, at least 7 possible by my count. These crowns are direct rewards for acts in faithfulness and other actions within our Christian lives before the Throne of God. I for one will joyfully accept as many as God will give to me for my activites in the fallen world, that I may even more joyfully cast them down at the nail-scarred feet of that One Good man and God, Christ Jesus my LORD!
I read there too that my actual position in Christ will be according to the faithful acts of Love I gave back to Him. A curious statement is found, that we 'will rule and reign' with Him forever. Curious, because all there would be Christian. Who then is ruled or reigned over? Doesn't this imply a pecking order or similar, even though all there are in total submission to Christ and are 'Christians'?

Personally, I'm deeply offended by those who treat God's indescribable Gift of Salvation as if it was a gate ticket for future life's entry. It may be that, as a gate ticket, but it's worth is directly increased by how much we deposit in the Bank of God that backs its issue! According to Scripture, those who imagine that there is nothing to be done by the Christian while on earth may well receive that exact reward eternally, to spend as they may: nothing!

I don't plan to spend all of forever in the cheap seats watching the heavenly action from afar. It's my desire to be as close to Christ as possible, with my like-minded brothers & sisters, for all of heaven's gorgeously indescribable eternity! For that I have things I need to be active in if I should hope to enjoy such an existence. That's works. That is to say, according to James the brother of Jesus, "Faith without works is dead."

 

[MightyAngel1]

Nobody was anything other than either a Christian or a pagan in the early Church. There were no distinctions or drawn lines to separate belief systems and thought processes.

Howdy Rojoloco!

Nobody was anything other than either a Christian or a pagan? Not according to the Seed Covenant of Abraham spoken by God Himself in the First Book of The Bible we know as The Book of Genesis.

I will show you what this Powerful Covenant of God given to Abraham actually shows us about the Early Church.

The New Testament began with John the Baptist preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. See Matthew 3:1-3. John the Baptist was a member of the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth. See Genesis 28:14.

Since God called John the Baptist to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, and John the Baptist believed the God-Man he baptized in the River Jordan was Jesus The Christ who would take away the sin of the world, see John 1:29, John the Baptist became a member of the Seed of Isaac Multiplied as the stars of the heaven. See Genesis 26:4.

When Jesus Christ began His Earthly Ministry, He preached the Gospel of the Kingdom, see Matthew 4:17, also known as the Gospel of Circumcision, see Galatians 2:7, to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, see Matthew 10:5-6, which was the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth in the New Testament.

Now, Let us jump forward into time to Acts 7:38. In this verse of Scripture, We find Stephen talking about the Church of the Wilderness led by Moses who was given the lively oracles by God on Mount Sinai. See also Romans 3:1-2.

And, Moses and all of the Jewish people who make up the Church of the Wilderness in the Old Testament are of the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth.

Now, Let us go backward to Acts Chapter 2 from Acts 7:38. Jesus Christ has died, was buried, and rose from the Grave. 120 Jewish believers in Jesus Christ, see Acts 1:15, are in the upper room celebrating the Feast of Pentecost, see Acts 2:1.

The Feast of Pentecost which is a Feast of the Lord of Leviticus Chapter 23 was given and Commanded by God for all Jews to keep as a statute forever throughout their generations in all their dwellings.

These 120 Jewish believers in Jesus Christ as Messiah who were once of the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth are now of the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the Heaven. See Genesis 21:12, Romans 9:7, and Hebrews 11:18.

And, Peter preached the Gospel of Circumcision to the Jewish People in Jerusalem in tongues and all who heard understood in their own language.

According to the Seed Covenant of Abraham, The Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth in the Old Testament and before the Cross practiced Judaism.

The Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven in the New Testament after the cross practiced New Testament Judaism by Commandment of God as a statute forever throughout their generations in all their dwellings.

The difference or distinction between the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth and the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven is both seed keep the Commandments of God.

However, The Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven have the faith of Jesus added after the Cross. See Revelation 14:12 and Acts 2.

As you can plainly see, my friend, the Seed of Abraham multiplied as the stars of the heaven, see Acts 15:14, also known as Christians, see Acts 11:26, are not even mentioned in Acts 2.

Why? Saul had not had his encounter with Jesus on the Road to Damascus yet as shown in Acts 9.

So, The only groups of people who are in Acts 2 are the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth, the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven, some strangers of Rome, and Proselytes. See Acts 2:10.

The Strangers of Rome were gentile believers who converted to Judaism. The Proselytes were gentiles who had converted to Judaism and were working with Jewish Priests.

Hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving!

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

 

[rojoloco]

To me it can’t get much more serious than possibly losing your way to eternal joy forever!

The problem with your doctrinal stance is that it makes light of Eternal Life. Your belief takes something very real and already attained and shifts it to something attainable. Scripture tells us 2 very distinct things about Eternal Life.

1) It is eternal
2) It is already obtained

If eternal life is already in our possession, there is no way to make it temporary. Eternal life is not just something we hold onto and stick in our pocket. It is a regeneration from the inside out that encompasses our very being. It is a rebirthing in Christ. How can one die to self, then die to Christ, only to resurrect their old self again? No man can resurrect himself. Christ was the only one. If your old self is dead and Christ has no intentions of raising it up again, what exactly do you believe one is reborn into should they "fall away?" There is no answer to this because it is a loaded question. The true answer is that those who have been regenerated and given eternal life can never fall away. If they do fall away, it was because they were only deceived and never truly had it. Regeneration had never taken place. The only possible way for a man to be rebirthed into sin is if he never died to it to begin with.

Every man is blessed with a Free Will to choose and decide in every moment of life what course they take.

Show me where it speaks of free will in Scripture. I can guarantee you it doesn't. The closest you will be able to come is showing me verses where it says to make a choice. If this is your plan of action, you will probably say how God would never tell us to make a choice if it were impossible for us to make it. However, I will surely come back with verses commanding you to follow EVERY single one of the 10 commandments. We both know it is impossible to accomplish this (hence, the need for a Savior) but it does not change the fact that we are commanded by God to do it. This alone will negate the initial argument. Now you will be left with nothing to stand on but your own preconceived ideas of free will which, in essence, do not ever exist.

Please don't think I am saying we are all robots. This is not the case! I recommend studying up on the doctrines of monergism and compatibilism. I would post some great study links but links are not allowed on here.

As God has revealed himself, and then all the more calls out to sinners for repentance to turn to His Love, He is asking man to turn his focus to GOD, instead of SELF.

The bigger question is, "Is it possible for man to choose to repent if he is totally depraved?"

Because every man has Free Will to choose, God NEVER FORCES ANYONE TO REPENTANCE, because it wouldn’t be true repentance.

It is true that God never forced anyone to choose Him. However, He also never forced anyone to not choose Him. It is all left to the desires of our heart. However, the desires of our heart are all bound by our nature. We never choose that which we do not desire and we never desire that which is against our nature. For the unregenerate man, God is 180 degrees out of sync with human nature. Scripture declares us to be at war with God, hating the Light, hiding from the Light, etc. If this is our nature, we will never choose God because our nature binds us to reject Him. Only the Holy Spirit can change this and it is through regeneration. Only upon regeneration does one finally scream for Christ because his new nature yearns for Him. There is a total choice but the choice is bound to the desires which are bound to the nature. There is no arm twisting or forcing but it is still entirely God from start to finish. He does not force man but He does not rely on man either. Again, this is where I recommend you study the doctrine of compatibilism.

God, as God, has total and complete power over all things for all time. He has chosen to relinquish part of that power as a Gift to man, in allowing all men by free will to control their own intellect. God never takes back this blessed gift of the power to choose our own course for our lives, even our eternal destination.

I'm not saying whether you are right or wrong (although there are sketchy parts to your quote) but I am asking you to present the Scripture verse that states this doctrine. There is nowhere in Scripture that speaks of God relinquishing control except for the Son coming in the form of man. There are places that speak of God choosing to not destroy things but never a place that says God relinquishes control.

Because it is a Spiritual Gift it cannot be effected by events in the physical world. Even a man imprisoned in chains in a dark, stinking dungeon chooses at every ticking instant whether he LETS God increase, or LETS himself increase, in his spiritual being’s free will.

Again, this is only partially true. I would urge caution against ever saying you "let" God do anything. That being said, it is true that we choose things at all times. However, that choice has nothing to do with controlling God in anything. His Will Be Done! That is not dependent upon man's interaction or cooperation.

Once a man makes a decision to turn his WILL and life over to God he may partake in the salvation of Jesus Christ into eternal life.

I'm glad you chose to use the word "will" above as it fits what I have already written. Again, the Will is bound by the desires of our nature. We never choose that which we do not desire. Therefore, how will a man "choose" to hand over his Will to God when his nature and desires compel him to do the exact opposite?

The men of old, before the sacrifice of Jesus the Son of God on the cross, could also inherit eternal life. If they, without Christ’s sacrifice, turned themselves entirely to the Will of God confessing Him as Lord then were they saved. Enoch in the book of Genesis is a good example, taken up in rapture from the earth to be with God in His presence, millenia before the events of the cross. Elijah is another, taken up dramatically in a fiery chariot appearing out of a whirlwind!

They were saved through their faith but they were not sanctified in the heavenly sense. They could not enter Heaven without the Son. Upon death, OT saints would go to Paradise a.k.a. Abraham's Bosom. It was after the death of Christ that he went and declared his truth to the spirits in prison (demons and dead unbelievers) and then relocated Paradise to heaven upon his resurrection.

All men receive the desires of their heart of hearts, beyond the things of this world. In this world after Christ’s Gift we are given that same choice to choose our eternal destiny at the foot of the cross: we can walk on by or fall on our face, the choice is ours! We may choose in our heart of hearts to turn to God and give our life and TOTAL SELF to Him for eternal life; or cling fast to SELF and inherit eternal suffering.

This is exactly the case! We do have the choice. That being said, the unregenerate man will not make the correct choice exactly because of his heart of hearts. He will always fall flat on his face when left to his own desires, choices, and nature. It is only after the Father calls, the Son makes possible, and the Spirit makes actual can a man ever choose God. And you know what? He always will choose God once this has occurred! God goes from being the enemy to being irresistible. He takes blind men and makes them see again. He takes dead men and brings them to eternal life. Soli Deo Gloria!

Some maintain that once we have chosen God we are forever in His mighty hand; that nothing in creation can pry us out. This is true, but with one very important exception. The act of turning to God from self is not an act of total surrender: He never takes back our Free Will to choose! Following our Justification in Christ, Justified as washed clean in the Blood of the Lamb of sacrifice, our life in Him is a continual process of ongoing Sanctification, leading to the perfection of His Righteousness as we are Glorified in God the Father with Christ. We are immediately Sanctified but it’s also an ongoing moment by moment process of further Sacntification into His Image of Perfection. The Justification of His sacrifice removes our sin, but not our mind and heart of hearts in their free will. Throughout our life thereafter we maintain Free Will to choose in our every thought, decision and deed.

And this further tells me you do not properly understand the doctrines of justification, sanctification, glorification, propitiation, or adoption.

Belief in Eternal Security is correct doctrine, because God alone is God and has chosen us in His Will as His children since before the foundations of the earth were laid out! That still blows what’s left of my mind! But the concept of Eternal Security may be taken far too far, thanks to our Free Will. A man may even be carried away to the position of Antinomianism, where a man calculates oh, so cleverly that he can choose God and His salvation then do whatever, whenever and however he wants morally, and God can't do anything about it! "I'm saved and have Eternal Security and ‘I will’ have a ball down here until you take me home to be in your heaven of heavens forever!" Anti-nomian means anti-Name, as anti-Name of Jesus; rejecting Him in His Righteousness.

This is the unfortunate belief of Hyper-Calvinism. Calvinism (and any other believing in Eternal Security) will tell you that one cannot live a life characterized by sin yet still be saved. We all sin but Christians are not defined by it. We are defined by Christ. We are secure in Christ. You say you believe in Eternal Security but also believe that we can lose it. These 2 beliefs contradict each other. Based on what I have heard, you not only reject (and rightly so) Hyper-Calvinism but you also (wrongly so) reject Eternal Security in lieu of the Arminian stance.

Thoughts of Eternal Security lead in 2 directions. One is that we have continual encouragement in our heart in the worst of times that regardless of the attacks coming we cannot be stolen away from His Eternal Life; that we may fully trust in Him forever as our God. This is true and good, feeding energy into our Hope. It’s spelled out in Scripture by our blessed friend Paul, "For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39

This is correct.

Worthy of note within that quote: Paul never implies that WE cannot separate OURSELVES from God’s love!

Then you are compelled to admit he never says we can either. Adding things to Scripture can go both ways. I condemn eisegesis but fully suppoert exegesis. With eisegesis, one can add anything at any time. "See, it never actually says "x", so ______ must be true." Most times, the blank line is a preconceived unbiblical idea that is only supported by a lack of Scripture and not Scripture itself.

So, the other potential in thoughts of Eternal Security is to harden our hearts; that regardless of our actions we are still guaranteed Eternal Life. This is not true, or good and Paul himself and several other apostles say so!

Again, this would be the erroneous Hyper-Calvinist view and not the actual Calvinist view.

Some would say that those who might lose their salvation after claiming Christ as Lord were never saved in the first place. Problem: it’s impossible to state that as fact, because only God could know! Having said that: is it then possible that even this person who fell didn’t know if they were truly saved? Seems pretty obvious that when one claims that a former Christian in word, thought and deed who announced Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior then turns away into darkness of perdition never even knew themselves that they weren’t saved is a bit hard to swallow.

Look at the parable of the seed and the sower. The 3rd seed thought he was a believer until he was smothered by the world. People deceive themselves all the time. Belief is not the same as faith. Even the demons believe and shudder. The person in question either never had faith to begin with or, if he did have faith, will come back into the fold at some point after Christ sets out to bring him back. My personal testimony is of the latter.

 

[rojoloco]

That's a very arminian view regarding salvation.

I couldn't have said it better.

 

[JDFree]

The problem with your doctrinal stance is that it makes light of Eternal Life. Your belief takes something very real and already attained and shifts it to something attainable. Scripture tells us 2 very distinct things about Eternal Life.

1) It is eternal
2) It is already obtained

If eternal life is already in our possession, there is no way to make it temporary. Eternal life is not just something we hold onto and stick in our pocket. It is a regeneration from the inside out that encompasses our very being. It is a rebirthing in Christ. How can one die to self, then die to Christ, only to resurrect their old self again? No man can resurrect himself. Christ was the only one. If your old self is dead and Christ has no intentions of raising it up again, what exactly do you believe one is reborn into should they "fall away?" There is no answer to this because it is a loaded question. The true answer is that those who have been regenerated and given eternal life can never fall away. If they do fall away, it was because they were only deceived and never truly had it. Regeneration had never taken place. The only possible way for a man to be rebirthed into sin is if he never died to it to begin with.



Show me where it speaks of free will in Scripture. I can guarantee you it doesn't. The closest you will be able to come is showing me verses where it says to make a choice. If this is your plan of action, you will probably say how God would never tell us to make a choice if it were impossible for us to make it. However, I will surely come back with verses commanding you to follow EVERY single one of the 10 commandments. We both know it is impossible to accomplish this (hence, the need for a Savior) but it does not change the fact that we are commanded by God to do it. This alone will negate the initial argument. Now you will be left with nothing to stand on but your own preconceived ideas of free will which, in essence, do not ever exist.

Please don't think I am saying we are all robots. This is not the case! I recommend studying up on the doctrines of monergism and compatibilism. I would post some great study links but links are not allowed on here.



The bigger question is, "Is it possible for man to choose to repent if he is totally depraved?"



It is true that God never forced anyone to choose Him. However, He also never forced anyone to not choose Him. It is all left to the desires of our heart. However, the desires of our heart are all bound by our nature. We never choose that which we do not desire and we never desire that which is against our nature. For the unregenerate man, God is 180 degrees out of sync with human nature. Scripture declares us to be at war with God, hating the Light, hiding from the Light, etc. If this is our nature, we will never choose God because our nature binds us to reject Him. Only the Holy Spirit can change this and it is through regeneration. Only upon regeneration does one finally scream for Christ because his new nature yearns for Him. There is a total choice but the choice is bound to the desires which are bound to the nature. There is no arm twisting or forcing but it is still entirely God from start to finish. He does not force man but He does not rely on man either. Again, this is where I recommend you study the doctrine of compatibilism.




I'm not saying whether you are right or wrong (although there are sketchy parts to your quote) but I am asking you to present the Scripture verse that states this doctrine. There is nowhere in Scripture that speaks of God relinquishing control except for the Son coming in the form of man. There are places that speak of God choosing to not destroy things but never a place that says God relinquishes control.



Again, this is only partially true. I would urge caution against ever saying you "let" God do anything. That being said, it is true that we choose things at all times. However, that choice has nothing to do with controlling God in anything. His Will Be Done! That is not dependent upon man's interaction or cooperation.



I'm glad you chose to use the word "will" above as it fits what I have already written. Again, the Will is bound by the desires of our nature. We never choose that which we do not desire. Therefore, how will a man "choose" to hand over his Will to God when his nature and desires compel him to do the exact opposite?



They were saved through their faith but they were not sanctified in the heavenly sense. They could not enter Heaven without the Son. Upon death, OT saints would go to Paradise a.k.a. Abraham's Bosom. It was after the death of Christ that he went and declared his truth to the spirits in prison (demons and dead unbelievers) and then relocated Paradise to heaven upon his resurrection.



This is exactly the case! We do have the choice. That being said, the unregenerate man will not make the correct choice exactly because of his heart of hearts. He will always fall flat on his face when left to his own desires, choices, and nature. It is only after the Father calls, the Son makes possible, and the Spirit makes actual can a man ever choose God. And you know what? He always will choose God once this has occurred! God goes from being the enemy to being irresistible. He takes blind men and makes them see again. He takes dead men and brings them to eternal life. Soli Deo Gloria!



And this further tells me you do not properly understand the doctrines of justification, sanctification, glorification, propitiation, or adoption.



This is the unfortunate belief of Hyper-Calvinism. Calvinism (and any other believing in Eternal Security) will tell you that one cannot live a life characterized by sin yet still be saved. We all sin but Christians are not defined by it. We are defined by Christ. We are secure in Christ. You say you believe in Eternal Security but also believe that we can lose it. These 2 beliefs contradict each other. Based on what I have heard, you not only reject (and rightly so) Hyper-Calvinism but you also (wrongly so) reject Eternal Security in lieu of the Arminian stance.



This is correct.



Then you are compelled to admit he never says we can either. Adding things to Scripture can go both ways. I condemn eisegesis but fully suppoert exegesis. With eisegesis, one can add anything at any time. "See, it never actually says "x", so ______ must be true." Most times, the blank line is a preconceived unbiblical idea that is only supported by a lack of Scripture and not Scripture itself.



Again, this would be the erroneous Hyper-Calvinist view and not the actual Calvinist view.



Look at the parable of the seed and the sower. The 3rd seed thought he was a believer until he was smothered by the world. People deceive themselves all the time. Belief is not the same as faith. Even the demons believe and shudder. The person in question either never had faith to begin with or, if he did have faith, will come back into the fold at some point after Christ sets out to bring him back. My personal testimony is of the latter.

As you should know by now your method of reply, quoting and then giving your replies in sub-sections within the quoted text, makes it extremely difficult for another person to then reply to your statements. That makes it necessary to either click 'Quote' and then try to add still more sub-sections, or else find a way to key the answers to your statements as itemized or numbered in order for other viewers to then see what the latest reply is about.

Due to that difficulty it will take some time to compose a reply that's easy for others to read.

 

[rojoloco]

As you should know by now your method of reply, quoting and then giving your replies in sub-sections within the quoted text, makes it extremely difficult for another person to then reply to your statements. That makes it necessary to either click 'Quote' and then try to add still more sub-sections, or else find a way to key the answers to your statements as itemized or numbered in order for other viewers to then see what the latest reply is about.

Due to that difficulty it will take some time to compose a reply that's easy for others to read.

It's basic UBB code. Just use the "quote" command to break up the sections. It takes literally 5 seconds to do. As you go through your reply, manually type it in to quote whatever paragraph you are trying to break up. Just don't forget to close out the quote with /quote in brackets. Or you can just do like RJ and copy/paste with different colors. Either way, I'll be waiting.

 

[JDFree]

I have spent the last several hours composing a reply to your far too many items detailed in your post. I had to cut & paste to M/S Word, then go down the list item by item. I then pasted to a reply window, and spen another 45 minutes editing to perfection. Then because of the screwball software in this website when cliscked Submit and attempted to post it, the software wiped out the entire post and stated my reply was too short, please write at least 10 characters in your reply. The words in my heart at this moment far exceed a Christian forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JDFree]

The ****************** [interpret that any way you want, I'm SMOKED! ] forum software just deleted a second posting of my reply, after spending yet another 30 minutes replying!

I will make one more attempt but to say I am incredibly unhappy with this does not describe!

 

[JDFree]

10th attempt to post, since around 9am, now almost 4pm.

>"The problem with your doctrinal stance is that it makes light of Eternal Life. Your belief takes something very real and already attained and shifts it to something attainable. Scripture tells us 2 very distinct things about Eternal Life.
1) It is eternal
2) It is already obtained
If eternal life is already in our possession, there is no way to make it temporary. Eternal life is not just something we hold onto and stick in our pocket. It is a regeneration from the inside out that encompasses our very being. It is a rebirthing in Christ. How can one die to self, then die to Christ, only to resurrect their old self again? No man can resurrect himself. Christ was the only one. If your old self is dead and Christ has no intentions of raising it up again, what exactly do you believe one is reborn into should they "fall away?" There is no answer to this because it is a loaded question. The true answer is that those who have been regenerated and given eternal life can never fall away. If they do fall away, it was because they were only deceived and never truly had it. Regeneration had never taken place. The only possible way for a man to be rebirthed into sin is if he never died to it to begin with.

*** Your opinion is noted.
How do you explain the fact that every single book of the New Testament except one very strongly warns against /about LOSING your eternal salvation, often said as "... which you have received..."??

How do you explain the fact that Jesus Christ himself in His own New Testament personally warns us numerous times of exactly the same thing of being in peril of losing eternal life which has been received?
How do you explain the fact that some are described there as having lost their eternal life?

Suggesting that all who fall away, every single one, were never saved in the first place and never believed in the first place is imagination, assumption and fabrication because there is no verifiable fact to prove it and it’s physically & spiritually impossible to prove. I see far, far more in Scripture continuously and strongly warning one of losing their salavation as compared to any Scripture verses that say to not worry about it at all.
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>"Show me where it speaks of free will in Scripture. I can guarantee you it doesn't. The closest you will be able to come is showing me verses where it says to make a choice. If this is your plan of action, you will probably say how God would never tell us to make a choice if it were impossible for us to make it. However, I will surely come back with verses commanding you to follow EVERY single one of the 10 commandments. We both know it is impossible to accomplish this (hence, the need for a Savior) but it does not change the fact that we are commanded by God to do it. This alone will negate the initial argument. Now you will be left with nothing to stand on but your own preconceived ideas of free will which, in essence, do not ever exist.
Please don't think I am saying we are all robots. This is not the case! I recommend studying up on the doctrines of monergism and compatibilism. I would post some great study links but links are not allowed on here."

*** Every rational mind already knows by every single one of their own and other’s known life experience that man, all of man with a complete intellect, is vested with free will from birth. Our entire lives are a summary of daily decisions in free will. That is why N/T Scripture in all but one book continuously warns about making the right decision or choice regarding salvation and following it faithfully. That is why Jesus, the apostles and the disciples PREACHED the Kingdom: that others might CHOOSE!

The entirety of N/T where it exhorts to come to believe is a living example of where Scripture speaks directly to and of free will. If it is not that, then why would our God bother or be humbled to be born of woman, endure a disgusting human physical life, suffer countless heartaches of rejections and miseries plus incomprehensible tortures and the insanity of cruelties of the cross and death if it is all a ‘done deal already’ and none can lose it , with no free will involved at all? Illogical, non-Scriptural, darned near blasphemous!

A notion of absolute unswerving Predestination to salvation and Eternal Security means Jesus Christ suffered incredibly for no reason at all for something He could simply have short-cutted by CAUSING all to believe! It, Predestination and Eternal Security with no shadow of turning, even says that He actually did suffer it all for no good reason AND ALREADY CAUSED all who believe to in fact believe without choice anyway: because they were already saved: so an illogical thought all together.

I don't dismiss predestination and believe it is true, but also believe that the actual nuts & bolts substance of it in God’s perspective from His mind, heart & intellect exceeds my ability to understand. I also believe that we who are saved are such from before the foundations of the world: but that this also speaks of spiritual things beyond our intellect, such as already being a part of the eternal Substance of God himself for eternity in His Entity and which cannot be undone.

I don't fully understand why He allowed free will in that, except by seeing that He has made individual beings with individual minds, hearts & intellects to be His children, bride & companions throughout eternity in Love, thanksgiving and joyful worship of Him: and that forcing a person to Love does not engender individual heartfelt True Love, thanksgiving or worship or the desired relationship between God & man.

I believe whole heartedly in eternal security, if we are wise enough in our choices to continue to hold fast to that which we believe, and to hold on to the mighty hand of God extended to our hand for salvation. I believe that we are made in His likeness, because His Perfect Word tells me so: and that this likeness means alike: such that we have Free Will just as our Creator God Jesus does!

Certainly we are commanded to follow every single one of the 10 commandments without exception: with special emphasis in Acts 15 regarding certain ones and their correct interpretation for understanding. Jesus also tells us the He will write those commands in our hearts & in our minds so that we know literally at the instant whether a thing is good & right & righteous within our God and His commands.

Nothing within that says I am in any way forced by God to follow that which He has written in my heart & mind, and that I cannot CHOOSE what to follow and obey. Otherwise it would be impossible for a person to ever commit sin once they believed, yet we know from Scripture this isn’t so.

>"The bigger question is, "Is it possible for man to choose to repent if he is totally depraved?"

*** I’m sure the ‘totally depraved’ line is an earmark of a particular doctrine or religious belief system, and also that it may not be my CHOSEN belief. I think it refers to a person being wickedly sinful by nature, as it is written in Jeremiah 19:7, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it?" and that surely true!

It is only possible to be saved if a God of Love beyond human comprehension deigned to allow himslf to be born in the flesh of a woman, to then live with and before men, show them and tell them of a better way to live which includes with it eternal life, and thence to suffer the more in many detestable things to prove His Love, and then to rise from the dead to show himself as God, and by what Authority He has said and guaranteed the Truth of these things; all of which He has done before us. It convinced me of His Truth and continues to every moment, praise Jesus!

>"It is true that God never forced anyone to choose Him. However, He also never forced anyone to not choose Him. It is all left to the desires of our heart. However, the desires of our heart are all bound by our nature. We never choose that which we do not desire and we never desire that which is against our nature. For the unregenerate man, God is 180 degrees out of sync with human nature. Scripture declares us to be at war with God, hating the Light, hiding from the Light, etc. If this is our nature, we will never choose God because our nature binds us to reject Him. Only the Holy Spirit can change this and it is through regeneration. Only upon regeneration does one finally scream for Christ because his new nature yearns for Him. There is a total choice but the choice is bound to the desires which are bound to the nature. There is no arm twisting or forcing but it is still entirely God from start to finish. He does not force man but He does not rely on man either. Again, this is where I recommend you study the doctrine of compatibilism.

*** I strongly disagree that we never desire that which is against our nature, otherwise we make God a liar in His Word! See Jeremiah 17:9 & related verses, describing the desperately wicked nature of all human hearts. I disagree that the Holy Spirit changes only through something called ‘regeneration’. I believe that we are shown, witnessed to and spoken to directly by God by a stil small voice and that in this He persuades our hearts from our nature to His.

If it’s only by this ‘regeneration’ then we’re right back at the square where the sacrifice on the cross was pointless because Holy Spirit has eliminated choice and does it by His Will. It cannot be both. If ‘regeneration’ is a result of belief resulting from the work of the Holy Spirit, then yes, we are ‘regenerated’ as 'born again' into a new creation, by our salvation which we have CHOSEN in Christ.

Even in the secular world independent of Christian spiritual beliefs we continually see people change dramatically from a life of wickedness by nature to a remarkable life of good deeds and thoughts. Also the same is sometimes called, 'Civilization'. Some simply sow their ‘wild oats’ as a youngster and then change their ways to become good, responsible & decent persons, against their apparently wicked nature.This may be seen regularly in many recovered from various addictions, suddenly swearing off for life. We are NOT ‘bound’ by our nature, but rather influenced, with choice always possible.

Regarding these several doctrines you mention I’m not much oriented to doctrines as such, other than what the Scripture says & proves to me. In my opinion many doctrines of men have so confused the issues that the resulting strife and disagreements have soiled the garments of the bride of Christ. Man in his haughty nature of selfishness & pride insists on taking over for God, speaking for Him, rather than just explaining what it is He as God has already spoken. If I must follow 'Approved Church Doctrine' then I am unable to freely grow in Christ, as ever increasing my knowledge & view over time by that more which is revealed in His Word as He speaks to me quietly in person day by day.

>"I'm not saying whether you are right or wrong (although there are sketchy parts to your quote) but I am asking you to present the Scripture verse that states this doctrine. There is nowhere in Scripture that speaks of God relinquishing control except for the Son coming in the form of man. There are places that speak of God choosing to not destroy things but never a place that says God relinquishes control."

***I believe you may be so overwhelmed by a church doctrine that it may be impossible for you to even see beyond it as you study Scripture. That may sound like a slap in the face, but it isn't, brother in Christ! Not saying it isn't a poorly veiled admonition hah! Surely the entire New Testament is fundmentally based on man’s ability to choose for Jesus, or choose for self, absolutely no doubt about that. You already said it yourself, that you do not believe we are robots. Well?

If you don’t believe we’re robots then you seemingly believe that God has relinquished control to us over the destiny of our own lives that we may make independent decisions. If you don’t believe that we may make independent decisions then you do believe we are indeed robots: both cannot be true.

What may be true, though incomprehensible to the mind of man, and also that which I think is in fact true: We are Predestined AND have Free Will AND even have Eternal Security in Him and yet we can lose it, or join with Him forever, by choice!

The semantics of it chosen by me, of saying ‘control’, were not intended as a narrow singular view describing God not being in total Almighty Power over all that is. God is God, and nothing else is. There is God, and then there is everything else: all within His design, power and keeping by His Will and we surely agree!

The entire Bible is an ongoing story of men improperly 'controlling' their lives, or properly 'controlling' them, because God has gifted to us independent control: as relinquishing His absolute second-by-second CONTROL over our every thought, word & deed.

>"Again, this is only partially true. I would urge caution against ever saying you "let" God do anything. That being said, it is true that we choose things at all times. However, that choice has nothing to do with controlling God in anything. His Will Be Done! That is not dependent upon man's interaction or cooperation.

***You can take anything too far, and then proceed from the ridiculous to the absurd. It is not as if I’m a complete dolt concerning the things of God so please spare the condescending & simplistic suggestions as if I do not have ‘superior knowledge’ & do not know even the rudiments of Faith.

‘Let’ is to allow and I thought everybody knew that here. Scripture amply & continuously refers to that majority of men who refuse to LET God be God of their lives. If you haven’t grasped that from Scripture then I’d question ho or if you actually read it? God LETS us either LET Him be master of our lives, or NOT LET Him be master of our lives, instead CHOOSING in self to reign as master over our own lives. Because you insist on falling to the rudimentary in your replies, the mention of ‘master of our lives’ refers to man’s part as CHOICE within his own heart & intellect, rather than suggesting that man controls the universe from the helm of his power over God.

>"I'm glad you chose to use the word "will" above as it fits what I have already written. Again, the Will is bound by the desires of our nature. We never choose that which we do not desire. Therefore, how will a man "choose" to hand over his Will to God when his nature and desires compel him to do the exact opposite?

***It took you this much to see that I have been talking all along about FREE WILL?? Seems you’re playing semantics or word games or whatever in your post here, a jugglig act of sorts. Yes, I read S. I. Hayakawa. A man will CHOOSE to hand his will over to God when the full impact & understanding of the personal meaning of His loving sacrifice in Jesus on the cross appears to the man. That is why God in Christ chose to suffer the cross: that men may come to see & know & believe & be saved.

I cannot see any way to rearrange or reword or complicate or obfuscate Scripture as it is clearly written and revealed where it demonstrates these things to all the world. If the Scripiture is not intended to change the heart of man, to change the mind of man, to change the will of man, to thereby DRAW him to Christ, as opposed to FORCE him to Christ: then what in the heck do you think its purpose is in being written by God???

Do you think that Scripture is just a penning of some facts & details regarding God’s method of imposing His Predestinations of all men upon their beings: some forced to salvation, some forced to eternal damnation, for the sake of historical record or something?

>"They were saved through their faith but they were not sanctified in the heavenly sense. They could not enter Heaven without the Son. Upon death, OT saints would go to Paradise a.k.a. Abraham's Bosom. It was after the death of Christ that he went and declared his truth to the spirits in prison (demons and dead unbelievers) and then relocated Paradise to heaven upon his resurrection.

***Did I say anywhere there that they were sanctified? Did I even suggest it? Did I even mention it? You speak to me in a tone as if in correction, when for a fact I left out all of the precise details of O/T salvation for sake of the topic I was addressing in my post. Did I ever address Christ leading captivity captive? But thanks for clarifying as it’s oft misunderstood.

I believe that there is no greater Authority and never has been or ever will be in all of creation on the Word of God than God himself speaking to me in His Word and by His Word: He being all sufficient in all things to open my eyes, heart, mind and understanding of that Good Word he would impart to me. Within that I was and am continually in prayer that God, and God alone as He chooses to act, would reveal all that He has hidden in plain sight for me to discover in His Perfect Word.
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>"This is exactly the case! We do have the choice. That being said, the unregenerate man will not make the correct choice exactly because of his heart of hearts. He will always fall flat on his face when left to his own desires, choices, and nature. It is only after the Father calls, the Son makes possible, and the Spirit makes actual can a man ever choose God. And you know what? He always will choose God once this has occurred! God goes from being the enemy to being irresistible. He takes blind men and makes them see again. He takes dead men and brings them to eternal life. Soli Deo Gloria!

***Okay, I guess we’re getting somewhere. Not convinced though. Assuming 'unregenerate' to refer to one who is not saved, not born again & who still holds fast to all of self over any of God > Apparently you believe that we have Free Will to choose, contrary to what you have implied in your other paragraphs?

Yes, again, I do understand the rudiments of Christian faith. I can even spell Holy Spirit. I disagree strongly that a man will always choose God after his initial salvation experience, both from personal experience, and from the pages of Scripture. What do you suppose was the intent of Paul’s letters of correction to churches, like Corinth: unless it was to get them back on a path they had strayed away from? Or are you going to fall back to ‘old reliable’, "Well, they just weren’t saved in the first place!" Remember, that letter was addressed to the WHOLE CHURCH at Corinth! So would you say that none there were saved in the first place, being they had strayed from the path?

I am more than confused by what I see of your doctrine, whether you believe that men have free will to choose, or you believe they do not once they are saved [and added to that last, they do not anyway because of predestination from before the foundations of the earth!]??? I cannot accept ‘irresistable grace’ theory because so much of N/T Scripture speaks of those fallen away, warns of falling away, exhorts to living rightly and corrects those who have fallen. Therefore I find it an unscriptural belief.
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>"And this further tells me you do not properly understand the doctrines of justification, sanctification, glorification, propitiation, or adoption.

***Fine, but according to you or your church doctrines. I do in fact understand Justification, Sanctification, Glorification, Propitiation and Adoption, exactly as Jesus explains in His Word, but thanks, not by studying the fabricated doctrines of men and denominations of men.

You seem to be entirely unaware that every single writer in N/T Scripture, and Jesus, and every N/T book but one directly address the issue of the potential for falling from Grace, given in words of warning to Christians. This is incredibly obvious that it is written to Christians: simply because non-Christians cannot possibly lose that which they have never had, right??

Why waste very precious ink & parchment? I would respectfully suggest that you seek out & study those references and ALLOW and pray the Lord to speak to your heart in these matters. I have posted which verses in which books and those are only the beginning in that.
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>"This is the unfortunate belief of Hyper-Calvinism. Calvinism (and any other believing in Eternal Security) will tell you that one cannot live a life characterized by sin yet still be saved. We all sin but Christians are not defined by it. We are defined by Christ. We are secure in Christ. You say you believe in Eternal Security but also believe that we can lose it. These 2 beliefs contradict each other. Based on what I have heard, you not only reject (and rightly so) Hyper-Calvinism but you also (wrongly so) reject Eternal Security in lieu of the Arminian stance.

***You’re close. I believe in eternal security as I described elsewhere that nothing in all of God’s creation can take us out of His hand, with one exception: that being that we can jump out of His hand of our own free will and volition. That because God never takes away our free will to choose, ‘Saved’ or not! And that is why we are warned as we are in Scripture, where the same Scripture informs us we are also secure in God forever and no OTHER thing may change that. So, what I choose to believe is every word of the Word of Truth as spoken and presented by God; and for me, no other ‘authority’ of men or angels comes above that.
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>"This is correct.
***Glad you accept it from God!

>"Then you are compelled to admit he never says we can either. Adding things to Scripture can go both ways. I condemn eisegesis but fully suppoert exegesis. With eisegesis, one can add anything at any time. "See, it never actually says "x", so ______ must be true." Most times, the blank line is a preconceived unbiblical idea that is only supported by a lack of Scripture and not Scripture itself.

***As written. For a fact: Paul never implies that we cannot destroy our own salvation; and apparent by His own words Jesus agrees. I have always had difficulties accepting contrived doctrines of men, often with a huge structure of belief built on one or two sentences or phrases in Scripture, taken out of context of course. It then becomes the ‘Official View’ and yet God is not their accepted Official at all, but instead it’s domineered over by self-appointed petty officials as men! Shameful.

>"Again, this would be the erroneous Hyper-Calvinist view and not the actual Calvinist view.

***Not clear what ‘this’ you mean in 'erroneous hyper-Calvinist' as me, or Paul, or the 'regardless of actions' view or what? Am I required here to be a Calvinist?

>"Look at the parable of the seed and the sower. The 3rd seed thought he was a believer until he was smothered by the world. People deceive themselves all the time. Belief is not the same as faith. Even the demons believe and shudder. The person in question either never had faith to begin with or, if he did have faith, will come back into the fold at some point after Christ sets out to bring him back. My personal testimony is of the latter.

***Your opinion, not mine. W-a-a-a-a-a-y too much Scripture warns us as Christians against falling away. It’s not written to non-Christians for the simple fact that no man may fall from a height he has not attained!

Can you fall from a horse if you never climb in the saddle? Can you fall from an airplance if you never climb in and refuse to fly in the first place? Why warn you about the danger of falling if it it’s impossible for you to ever attain that place of peril in the first place?? It’s clear by that: God warns the Christian not to fall! He does not warn those who can never enter in at the first place.

 

[KingdomSeeker]

The problem with your doctrinal stance is that it makes light of Eternal Life. Your belief takes something very real and already attained and shifts it to something attainable. Scripture tells us 2 very distinct things about Eternal Life.

1) It is eternal
2) It is already obtained

If eternal life is already in our possession, there is no way to make it temporary. Eternal life is not just something we hold onto and stick in our pocket. It is a regeneration from the inside out that encompasses our very being. It is a rebirthing in Christ. How can one die to self, then die to Christ, only to resurrect their old self again? No man can resurrect himself. Christ was the only one. If your old self is dead and Christ has no intentions of raising it up again, what exactly do you believe one is reborn into should they "fall away?" There is no answer to this because it is a loaded question. The true answer is that those who have been regenerated and given eternal life can never fall away. If they do fall away, it was because they were only deceived and never truly had it. Regeneration had never taken place. The only possible way for a man to be rebirthed into sin is if he never died to it to begin with.



Show me where it speaks of free will in Scripture. I can guarantee you it doesn't. The closest you will be able to come is showing me verses where it says to make a choice. If this is your plan of action, you will probably say how God would never tell us to make a choice if it were impossible for us to make it. However, I will surely come back with verses commanding you to follow EVERY single one of the 10 commandments. We both know it is impossible to accomplish this (hence, the need for a Savior) but it does not change the fact that we are commanded by God to do it. This alone will negate the initial argument. Now you will be left with nothing to stand on but your own preconceived ideas of free will which, in essence, do not ever exist.

Please don't think I am saying we are all robots. This is not the case! I recommend studying up on the doctrines of monergism and compatibilism. I would post some great study links but links are not allowed on here.



The bigger question is, "Is it possible for man to choose to repent if he is totally depraved?"



It is true that God never forced anyone to choose Him. However, He also never forced anyone to not choose Him. It is all left to the desires of our heart. However, the desires of our heart are all bound by our nature. We never choose that which we do not desire and we never desire that which is against our nature. For the unregenerate man, God is 180 degrees out of sync with human nature. Scripture declares us to be at war with God, hating the Light, hiding from the Light, etc. If this is our nature, we will never choose God because our nature binds us to reject Him. Only the Holy Spirit can change this and it is through regeneration. Only upon regeneration does one finally scream for Christ because his new nature yearns for Him. There is a total choice but the choice is bound to the desires which are bound to the nature. There is no arm twisting or forcing but it is still entirely God from start to finish. He does not force man but He does not rely on man either. Again, this is where I recommend you study the doctrine of compatibilism.




I'm not saying whether you are right or wrong (although there are sketchy parts to your quote) but I am asking you to present the Scripture verse that states this doctrine. There is nowhere in Scripture that speaks of God relinquishing control except for the Son coming in the form of man. There are places that speak of God choosing to not destroy things but never a place that says God relinquishes control.



Again, this is only partially true. I would urge caution against ever saying you "let" God do anything. That being said, it is true that we choose things at all times. However, that choice has nothing to do with controlling God in anything. His Will Be Done! That is not dependent upon man's interaction or cooperation.



I'm glad you chose to use the word "will" above as it fits what I have already written. Again, the Will is bound by the desires of our nature. We never choose that which we do not desire. Therefore, how will a man "choose" to hand over his Will to God when his nature and desires compel him to do the exact opposite?



They were saved through their faith but they were not sanctified in the heavenly sense. They could not enter Heaven without the Son. Upon death, OT saints would go to Paradise a.k.a. Abraham's Bosom. It was after the death of Christ that he went and declared his truth to the spirits in prison (demons and dead unbelievers) and then relocated Paradise to heaven upon his resurrection.



This is exactly the case! We do have the choice. That being said, the unregenerate man will not make the correct choice exactly because of his heart of hearts. He will always fall flat on his face when left to his own desires, choices, and nature. It is only after the Father calls, the Son makes possible, and the Spirit makes actual can a man ever choose God. And you know what? He always will choose God once this has occurred! God goes from being the enemy to being irresistible. He takes blind men and makes them see again. He takes dead men and brings them to eternal life. Soli Deo Gloria!



And this further tells me you do not properly understand the doctrines of justification, sanctification, glorification, propitiation, or adoption.



This is the unfortunate belief of Hyper-Calvinism. Calvinism (and any other believing in Eternal Security) will tell you that one cannot live a life characterized by sin yet still be saved. We all sin but Christians are not defined by it. We are defined by Christ. We are secure in Christ. You say you believe in Eternal Security but also believe that we can lose it. These 2 beliefs contradict each other. Based on what I have heard, you not only reject (and rightly so) Hyper-Calvinism but you also (wrongly so) reject Eternal Security in lieu of the Arminian stance.



This is correct.



Then you are compelled to admit he never says we can either. Adding things to Scripture can go both ways. I condemn eisegesis but fully suppoert exegesis. With eisegesis, one can add anything at any time. "See, it never actually says "x", so ______ must be true." Most times, the blank line is a preconceived unbiblical idea that is only supported by a lack of Scripture and not Scripture itself.



Again, this would be the erroneous Hyper-Calvinist view and not the actual Calvinist view.



Look at the parable of the seed and the sower. The 3rd seed thought he was a believer until he was smothered by the world. People deceive themselves all the time. Belief is not the same as faith. Even the demons believe and shudder. The person in question either never had faith to begin with or, if he did have faith, will come back into the fold at some point after Christ sets out to bring him back. My personal testimony is of the latter.

Hi,

Just wanted to ask.....

Why does Jesus tell us to "Pick up our cross,and deny ourselves DAILY," in order to follow him? He Says DAILY. Why would he make that distinction if it was a one time thing. As to say, you could NOT deny yourself one day....which would HARM the walk...

You are sealed by the holy spirit...but you CAN do things to Quench, stifle, resist, grieve, quiet, the Holy spirit..

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Day of Redemption...Day of Salvation)

So Deny DAILY, and dont grievethe holyspirit. Why? if your saved the minute you beleive about Jesus, why those distinctions?

 

[rojoloco]

Apparently, my reply is too long so I have to break it up into 2 posts.

*** Your opinion is noted.
How do you explain the fact that every single book of the New Testament except one very strongly warns against /about LOSING your eternal salvation, often said as "... which you have received..."??

How do you explain the fact that Jesus Christ himself in His own New Testament personally warns us numerous times of exactly the same thing of being in peril of losing eternal life which has been received?
How do you explain the fact that some are described there as having lost their eternal life?

Suggesting that all who fall away, every single one, were never saved in the first place and never believed in the first place is imagination, assumption and fabrication because there is no verifiable fact to prove it and it’s physically & spiritually impossible to prove. I see far, far more in Scripture continuously and strongly warning one of losing their salavation as compared to any Scripture verses that say to not worry about it at all.

It is far more than opinion. It is the ONLY logical interpretation. Your view says we die to self, rise in Christ as a new creature, and then can die to Christ and resurrect dead self. This is not even feasible. Your view says eternal life can only be temporary. Your view says we are trying to achieve eternal life whereas Scripture says it is already ours. You may not like the idea of those who fall away (for good never to return) not really being of Christ but that is what Scripture says.

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crogerst%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:536871559 0 0 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} </style>John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Matthew 18:12-14
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crogerst%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:536871559 0 0 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->What do you think? If any<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crogerst%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:536871559 0 0 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

*** Every rational mind already knows by every single one of their own and other’s known life experience that man, all of man with a complete intellect, is vested with free will from birth. Our entire lives are a summary of daily decisions in free will. That is why N/T Scripture in all but one book continuously warns about making the right decision or choice regarding salvation and following it faithfully. That is why Jesus, the apostles and the disciples PREACHED the Kingdom: that others might CHOOSE!

Would you kill a baby? I'm sure you wouldn't. Are you physically capable of killing a baby in cold-blooded murder? Of course you are. You are much stronger. It would be easy. However, everything in your heart tells you this is sick and disgusting. Never in a million years (I hope) would you choose to do such a despicable act!

The same can be said regarding salvation and the will of man. No man will ever choose God. Is he capable of choosing God? Sure. It is just a choice after all. Would he ever choose God? Certainly not! While the choice is right there, everything in his fallen and unregenerate nature screams that God is despicable! God is the enemy and to choose Him is to go against every fiber of your body! It is nothing less than this for the unregenerate man.

The unregenerate man is dead in his trespasses (Ephesians 2:1), has an evil heart (Genesis 8:21) that lies to him (Jeremiah 17:9), cannot understand the Spiritual aspect of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:14), HATES God (John 3:20), chooses to do the things of Satan (John 8:44), and refuses to seek after God (Romans 3:11). Pray tell how this man would ever choose God of his own will and desires!

The entirety of N/T where it exhorts to come to believe is a living example of where Scripture speaks directly to and of free will. If it is not that, then why would our God bother or be humbled to be born of woman, endure a disgusting human physical life, suffer countless heartaches of rejections and miseries plus incomprehensible tortures and the insanity of cruelties of the cross and death if it is all a ‘done deal already’ and none can lose it , with no free will involved at all? Illogical, non-Scriptural, darned near blasphemous!

I knew it was only a matter of time before you used this argument. I thought you might have skipped it since I already squashed it in my previous post. Again, why did God bother to tell us to follow all of the commandments perfectly if we are incapable of doing so? The command does not indicate a possibility. It simply declares God's unattainable standard when left to our own devices. Just as one cannot obey the commandments without God, one cannot choose God without God first choosing him and drawing him (John 6:44). As for your question of why did Christ go through that, it was for His Elect.

A notion of absolute unswerving Predestination to salvation and Eternal Security means Jesus Christ suffered incredibly for no reason at all for something He could simply have short-cutted by CAUSING all to believe! It, Predestination and Eternal Security with no shadow of turning, even says that He actually did suffer it all for no good reason AND ALREADY CAUSED all who believe to in fact believe without choice anyway: because they were already saved: so an illogical thought all together.

Now you are trying to play God and tell how you would do things if you were Him. Tusk Barnes did something similar earlier when he said a perfect God should have set up a system of _______. Just because you disagree with God's system does not mean it is wrong. While on the same thought process, one could question why God even created anybody at all if He clearly knew people would go to Hell. If He knew each individual person who would choose Him and who would reject Him, why not just create the former and spare the latter eternal misery? See where this rabbit hole goes? Your statement bears no relevance on the discussion at hand and actually borders on a heretical questioning of God's authority and plan in lieu of what you think would be a better idea. Why did God even choose to send His Son to die at all? Why not come up with a different system? I have no idea and I am not to question the Maker's motives.

I don't fully understand why He allowed free will in that, except by seeing that He has made individual beings with individual minds, hearts & intellects to be His children, bride & companions throughout eternity in Love, thanksgiving and joyful worship of Him: and that forcing a person to Love does not engender individual heartfelt True Love, thanksgiving or worship or the desired relationship between God & man.

I agree that we most certainly have the ability to choose the things of God but this does not start with salvation. It starts immediately AFTER salvation. One cannot choose God. It simply cannot happen and Scripture tells us so. God must choose us and regenerate us before we can ever choose Him. However, upon regeneration, He is irresistible.

Again, this has to do with our desires being bound by our nature. While we can never choose salvation, once saved, we most certainly can choose to increase in sanctification by choosing the things of God. Only upon salvation can one choose these things. Beforehand, one can only reject them. It does please God when we choose to follow Him but only His children can possibly do such a thing.

I believe whole heartedly in eternal security, if we are wise enough in our choices to continue to hold fast to that which we believe, and to hold on to the mighty hand of God extended to our hand for salvation. I believe that we are made in His likeness, because His Perfect Word tells me so: and that this likeness means alike: such that we have Free Will just as our Creator God Jesus does!

This is not eternal security. This is eternal possibility.

Certainly we are commanded to follow every single one of the 10 commandments without exception: with special emphasis in Acts 15 regarding certain ones and their correct interpretation for understanding. Jesus also tells us the He will write those commands in our hearts & in our minds so that we know literally at the instant whether a thing is good & right & righteous within our God and His commands.

Nothing within that says I am in any way forced by God to follow that which He has written in my heart & mind, and that I cannot CHOOSE what to follow and obey. Otherwise it would be impossible for a person to ever commit sin once they believed, yet we know from Scripture this isn’t so.

Now you are contradicting yourself. Earlier you made the argument that God would not command us to do something if it weren't possible. Now you say He does command us to do something that isn't possible...unless you think it is possible to live a sinless life. If this is the case, I direct you to Romans 3:23.

*** I’m sure the ‘totally depraved’ line is an earmark of a particular doctrine or religious belief system, and also that it may not be my CHOSEN belief. I think it refers to a person being wickedly sinful by nature, as it is written in Jeremiah 19:7, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it?" and that surely true!

It is only possible to be saved if a God of Love beyond human comprehension deigned to allow himslf to be born in the flesh of a woman, to then live with and before men, show them and tell them of a better way to live which includes with it eternal life, and thence to suffer the more in many detestable things to prove His Love, and then to rise from the dead to show himself as God, and by what Authority He has said and guaranteed the Truth of these things; all of which He has done before us. It convinced me of His Truth and continues to every moment, praise Jesus!

You carefully dodged the question so I will come back to it. While Calvin did espouse the doctrine, it did not come from him. It was actually affirmed as far back as St. Augustine (354-430 A.D.). I showed many Scriptures above that show total depravity. It is not merely a man made doctrine. It is Biblical truth! So I ask again, if one is totally depraved and bound by his fallen will, how will he ever desire to choose Christ when everything within him screams against Christ?

*** I strongly disagree that we never desire that which is against our nature, otherwise we make God a liar in His Word! See Jeremiah 17:9 & related verses, describing the desperately wicked nature of all human hearts. I disagree that the Holy Spirit changes only through something called ‘regeneration’. I believe that we are shown, witnessed to and spoken to directly by God by a stil small voice and that in this He persuades our hearts from our nature to His.

Let's break it down shall we?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

The natural man is incapable of understanding the things of the Spirit. He can learn the things with head knowledge but that faith and heart knowledge is beyond his comprehension and outside of his reach. So who can understand? If it is not the unregenerate (natural) man, it can only be the regenerate man. So what is regeneration?

Regeneration is simply a rebirth. We die to self and rise in Christ as a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17). We are rebirthed in Christ (1 Peter 1:23). We have been saved by grace through faith but it was not of ourselves. It was a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). This birth was "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13). As for those who have been born of God (regenerated), they have a promise of overcoming the world (1 John 5:4). Notice it does not say he with faith overcomes but that he who is born of God overcomes. The result of being born again (regenerated) is faith and victory. Victory is not the result of faith but is rather, a companion to it. It all starts with regeneration.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

It is by a death to self and a resurrection in Christ that one is indwelt by the the Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:9) and given the ability to understand things which are Spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).

If it’s only by this ‘regeneration’ then we’re right back at the square where the sacrifice on the cross was pointless because Holy Spirit has eliminated choice and does it by His Will. It cannot be both. If ‘regeneration’ is a result of belief resulting from the work of the Holy Spirit, then yes, we are ‘regenerated’ as 'born again' into a new creation, by our salvation which we have CHOSEN in Christ.

The cross was not pointless solely because that was the method of atonement God chose to use. He could have used anything but He chose blood. He chose a sacrificial system. We will never know why but that is okay because it is not our place to question it. Regeneration is not the result of belief. Belief is the result of regeneration. You say it cannot be both our will and God's Will. I agree. It is ONLY God's Will and the cross compliments His Will perfectly.

Even in the secular world independent of Christian spiritual beliefs we continually see people change dramatically from a life of wickedness by nature to a remarkable life of good deeds and thoughts. Also the same is sometimes called, 'Civilization'. Some simply sow their ‘wild oats’ as a youngster and then change their ways to become good, responsible & decent persons, against their apparently wicked nature.This may be seen regularly in many recovered from various addictions, suddenly swearing off for life. We are NOT ‘bound’ by our nature, but rather influenced, with choice always possible.

Scripture disagrees when it uses terms such as "dead." In fact, Job 14:4 tells us nobody can make something clean out of something unclean. Jeremiah 13:23 tells us we cannot do ANY good because we are accustomed to doing evil. You are defining good from a human finite perspective instead of from an infinite God perspective. They are vastly different.

Regarding these several doctrines you mention I’m not much oriented to doctrines as such, other than what the Scripture says & proves to me. In my opinion many doctrines of men have so confused the issues that the resulting strife and disagreements have soiled the garments of the bride of Christ. Man in his haughty nature of selfishness & pride insists on taking over for God, speaking for Him, rather than just explaining what it is He as God has already spoken. If I must follow 'Approved Church Doctrine' then I am unable to freely grow in Christ, as ever increasing my knowledge & view over time by that more which is revealed in His Word as He speaks to me quietly in person day by day.

And this is where you are taking it to an extreme. While I condemn the Catholic Church for elevating Tradition to the same level as Scripture, lowering it to an "off the map" level is equally as dangerous. Scripture is very clear that there is to be a balance that is held in check by Scripture alone. Tradition is not authoritative but it is meant to be a guideline for Biblical Truth. If one goes without it completely, he is left to self interpretation alone and open to all sorts of misguided direction. I count many old teachings of men as Godly wisdom that has gone before me. God uses people in incredible ways. We should not discount every doctrine simply because a man or group of men formulated it out of Scripture because, in the end, it is still Scripture that is authoritative. By the way, the doctrines you are declaring were actually formed by men years after the doctrines I am declaring. Furthermore, the doctrines you are espousing were condemned as heresy at the Synod of Dordt in the early 1600's. Just an interesting little tidbit of history for you to ponder.

***I believe you may be so overwhelmed by a church doctrine that it may be impossible for you to even see beyond it as you study Scripture. That may sound like a slap in the face, but it isn't, brother in Christ! Not saying it isn't a poorly veiled admonition hah! Surely the entire New Testament is fundmentally based on man’s ability to choose for Jesus, or choose for self, absolutely no doubt about that. You already said it yourself, that you do not believe we are robots. Well?

Actually, believe it or not, I used to believe as you did. I believed very much so in free will. I was an Arminian and didn't even know what that was. I was much like you. Although I had no idea what certain doctrines said, they still applied to me. However, once I started doing more and more study on my own and reading the classics and writings of the Puritans, I started to see contradictions between my belief and Scripture. This was about 7 years ago. It was about this time that I started rejecting the ideas of Arminianism and started embracing the ideas of Calvinism. Again, I had no idea what either of these 2 meant. Fast forward another year and I began learning about church doctrines. It's been a roller coaster ride ever since. I proudly declare myself to be a 5 point Calvinist, not because I hold Calvin in high regard (although, I do say he was a man of God), but because the teachings he carried on (from the days of Augustine) align with Scripture as a whole and do not begin with human understanding. They begin with Scripture and they end with Scripture. They begin with God and they end with God.

 

[rojoloco]

If you don’t believe we’re robots then you seemingly believe that God has relinquished control to us over the destiny of our own lives that we may make independent decisions. If you don’t believe that we may make independent decisions then you do believe we are indeed robots: both cannot be true.

Both can very much be true. Again, research monergism and compatibilism. While not being "robots," free will both exists and does not exist.

The entire Bible is an ongoing story of men improperly 'controlling' their lives, or properly 'controlling' them, because God has gifted to us independent control: as relinquishing His absolute second-by-second CONTROL over our every thought, word & deed.

I also recommend reading The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink. It is an amazing book that will help you to understand the Biblical stance of the sovereignty of God.

***You can take anything too far, and then proceed from the ridiculous to the absurd. It is not as if I’m a complete dolt concerning the things of God so please spare the condescending & simplistic suggestions as if I do not have ‘superior knowledge’ & do not know even the rudiments of Faith.

I was not trying to be rude but it WAS you who said we let God do things. It is also you who is implying God is dependent upon us to complete His Will because you claim He has relinquished control. These are all dangerous teachings that do very much go against the rudiments of faith.

‘Let’ is to allow and I thought everybody knew that here. Scripture amply & continuously refers to that majority of men who refuse to LET God be God of their lives. If you haven’t grasped that from Scripture then I’d question ho or if you actually read it? God LETS us either LET Him be master of our lives, or NOT LET Him be master of our lives, instead CHOOSING in self to reign as master over our own lives. Because you insist on falling to the rudimentary in your replies, the mention of ‘master of our lives’ refers to man’s part as CHOICE within his own heart & intellect, rather than suggesting that man controls the universe from the helm of his power over God.

Again, study compatibilism. I can't say that enough.

***It took you this much to see that I have been talking all along about FREE WILL?? Seems you’re playing semantics or word games or whatever in your post here, a jugglig act of sorts. Yes, I read S. I. Hayakawa. A man will CHOOSE to hand his will over to God when the full impact & understanding of the personal meaning of His loving sacrifice in Jesus on the cross appears to the man. That is why God in Christ chose to suffer the cross: that men may come to see & know & believe & be saved.

But 1 Corinthians 2:14 says it is impossible for a man to ever come to that understanding prior to regeneration yet you claim regeneration comes after this understanding. Your flow is never accomplished because it can never be accomplished. You put the cart before the horse and it goes nowhere. Also, I have no clue who S.I. Hayakawa is. However, for a proper understanding on the human will, I recommend reading both The Freedom of the Will by Jonathan Edwards as well as The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther.

I cannot see any way to rearrange or reword or complicate or obfuscate Scripture as it is clearly written and revealed where it demonstrates these things to all the world. If the Scripiture is not intended to change the heart of man, to change the mind of man, to change the will of man, to thereby DRAW him to Christ, as opposed to FORCE him to Christ: then what in the heck do you think its purpose is in being written by God???

This is where you are attributing all the power to Scripture when Scripture attributes that power to God. You say that Scripture changes the hearts of men whereas Scripture attributes this to the Spirit (John 3:5). You say Scripture draws men. Scripture attributes this to the Father (John 6:44). The purpose of Scripture is defined in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 as being "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

Do you think that Scripture is just a penning of some facts & details regarding God’s method of imposing His Predestinations of all men upon their beings: some forced to salvation, some forced to eternal damnation, for the sake of historical record or something?

Nope. In fact, I don't even believe Scripture is meant for unbelievers. Notice that all the letters were written to churches. They were written to believers. While I do believe unbelievers can be helped by the words in Scripture, they will never understand the Spiritual truths of Scripture and, indeed, cannot (2 Corinthians 2:14). Scripture is primarily meant for the edification of believers "so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

I believe that there is no greater Authority and never has been or ever will be in all of creation on the Word of God than God himself speaking to me in His Word and by His Word: He being all sufficient in all things to open my eyes, heart, mind and understanding of that Good Word he would impart to me. Within that I was and am continually in prayer that God, and God alone as He chooses to act, would reveal all that He has hidden in plain sight for me to discover in His Perfect Word.

And this is wonderful. However, do not totally discount the teachings that come from men appointed and gifted by God with the Spiritual gifting of teaching. It is these men (along with the Spirit within us) who will help keep people from private interpretation.

***Okay, I guess we’re getting somewhere. Not convinced though. Assuming 'unregenerate' to refer to one who is not saved, not born again & who still holds fast to all of self over any of God > Apparently you believe that we have Free Will to choose, contrary to what you have implied in your other paragraphs?

It is not contrary at all. Once again, research monergism and compatibilism and you will fully understand my point. (Man, I wish we could post links on here!!! lol)

Yes, again, I do understand the rudiments of Christian faith. I can even spell Holy Spirit. I disagree strongly that a man will always choose God after his initial salvation experience, both from personal experience, and from the pages of Scripture. What do you suppose was the intent of Paul’s letters of correction to churches, like Corinth: unless it was to get them back on a path they had strayed away from? Or are you going to fall back to ‘old reliable’, "Well, they just weren’t saved in the first place!" Remember, that letter was addressed to the WHOLE CHURCH at Corinth! So would you say that none there were saved in the first place, being they had strayed from the path?

I wouldn't say they strayed from the path. They certainly were confused but they still believed Christ to be who he said he was and they believed the gospel at the core. They had just mixed in a lot of pagan practice and had become selfish. There were probably some who were not saved. There were also probably many who had veered off course but were brought back on by the Spirit. Lastly, there were many who were still onboard but had some kinks to work out in their understanding of certain doctrines (much like many true believers today).

I am more than confused by what I see of your doctrine, whether you believe that men have free will to choose, or you believe they do not once they are saved [and added to that last, they do not anyway because of predestination from before the foundations of the earth!]??? I cannot accept ‘irresistable grace’ theory because so much of N/T Scripture speaks of those fallen away, warns of falling away, exhorts to living rightly and corrects those who have fallen. Therefore I find it an unscriptural belief.

I have a series of sermons I can send your way if you want. They are sermons I wrote and delivered last year. They only take about 10 minutes to read each one and I think they will help clarify where I am coming from. Whether you agree with them in the end or not, that is a separate matter. I just think you will finally understand where I am coming from. What I am saying is the same thing the Reformers taught in the 1500's during the Reformation.

***Fine, but according to you or your church doctrines. I do in fact understand Justification, Sanctification, Glorification, Propitiation and Adoption, exactly as Jesus explains in His Word, but thanks, not by studying the fabricated doctrines of men and denominations of men.

Actually, your view is most definitely a "fabricated doctrines of men" that was created in the 1500's and really pushed in the 1600's by the Remonstrants who were condemned by the Church of Holland at the Synod of Dordt. Again, knowing church history surrounding these doctrines is important because it tells you your roots. While claiming to be free of doctrines of men, you are actually bound by doctrines of men that came about 1,300 years AFTER the doctrines I follow.

You seem to be entirely unaware that every single writer in N/T Scripture, and Jesus, and every N/T book but one directly address the issue of the potential for falling from Grace, given in words of warning to Christians. This is incredibly obvious that it is written to Christians: simply because non-Christians cannot possibly lose that which they have never had, right??

I see it for what it is. It is written with infinite truth for the finite mind. Encouragement from God is what spurs His children on to love and good deeds but these are ultimately only accomplished by the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Why waste very precious ink & parchment? I would respectfully suggest that you seek out & study those references and ALLOW and pray the Lord to speak to your heart in these matters. I have posted which verses in which books and those are only the beginning in that.

Again, it was focusing only on these kinds of verses that had me confused most of my life. It wasn't until after I started studying Scripture as a whole and letting Scripture interpret Scripture that I saw it for what it was.

***Your opinion, not mine. W-a-a-a-a-a-y too much Scripture warns us as Christians against falling away. It’s not written to non-Christians for the simple fact that no man may fall from a height he has not attained!

And he cannot lose that which he has already attained. It is described as imperishable, eternal, reserved, inherited, and rebirthed into for a reason. It is not a future act but a complete past tense act for the believer.

Can you fall from a horse if you never climb in the saddle? Can you fall from an airplance if you never climb in and refuse to fly in the first place? Why warn you about the danger of falling if it it’s impossible for you to ever attain that place of peril in the first place?? It’s clear by that: God warns the Christian not to fall! He does not warn those who can never enter in at the first place.

But Scripture never tells us you CAN fall either. It warns of it to spur us on, not to educate us of those fallen from true saving faith. This is because Scripture is very clear that the latter will not happen. It is not because we cannot fall away as men but because God preserves our faith in Him. Again, it begins and ends with God.

 

[rojoloco]

Hi,

Just wanted to ask.....

Why does Jesus tell us to "Pick up our cross,and deny ourselves DAILY," in order to follow him? He Says DAILY. Why would he make that distinction if it was a one time thing. As to say, you could NOT deny yourself one day....which would HARM the walk...

You are sealed by the holy spirit...but you CAN do things to Quench, stifle, resist, grieve, quiet, the Holy spirit..

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Day of Redemption...Day of Salvation)

So Deny DAILY, and dont grievethe holyspirit. Why? if your saved the minute you beleive about Jesus, why those distinctions?

Do not be confused. We are not sealed up until the day of salvation and then set free on our own. We are sealed by the Spirit from the day we believe to the day we die. It is the seal of the Spirit which marks our authenticity. Ephesians 1:14 tells us we are sealed as a pledge of our inheritance. This inheritance is described in 1 Peter 1:4. He calls it imperishable and undefiled. He says it will not fade away and is reserved in Heaven for us. He then goes on to describe the man who is sealed with the Spirit as being "protected by the power of God through faith."

We are to deny ourselves daily and take up our cross daily. However, this does not mean we are to regain our salvation daily. Paul says (in Galatians 2:20) that he is crucified with Christ nevertheless he lives. Paul is not relating salvation to taking up our cross. He is relating that to sanctification. Also, Paul was only a man. He did not know the hearts of men as Christ did. As a loving pastor, it was his desire to see all his congregation persevere. However, it was quite evident that there were certain apostates who had infiltrated the Church. He was combating falsehoods with Spiritual truths and then encouraging his congregations.

 

[jiggyfly]

We are to deny ourselves daily and take up our cross daily. However, this does not mean we are to regain our salvation daily.

Could you elaborate and explain what salvation is to you?

 

[JDFree]

Hi,

Just wanted to ask.....

Why does Jesus tell us to "Pick up our cross,and deny ourselves DAILY," in order to follow him? He Says DAILY. Why would he make that distinction if it was a one time thing. As to say, you could NOT deny yourself one day....which would HARM the walk...

You are sealed by the holy spirit...but you CAN do things to Quench, stifle, resist, grieve, quiet, the Holy spirit..

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Day of Redemption...Day of Salvation)

So Deny DAILY, and dont grievethe holyspirit. Why? if your saved the minute you beleive about Jesus, why those distinctions?

An analogy to marriage fits here, being we're the bride of Christ. A bride has a perfect husband who treats her like a queen & she treats him like a king. One day she decides to get real selfish as cold, insulting, antagonistic, self-centered & selfish. What happens to that idylic relationship? Husband's spirit is wounded, hurt in his heart, causing him pain he didn't deserve at all and destroying the beautiful communication in love. He becomes distant.

In the Holy Spirit we should have continual ongoing conversation in love, as He works in our lives to help us and also to allow or cause good things to occur. We should turn to Him in total surrender of our lives and selfish desires in love. We're joined to Him in love by our mutual love for Jesus. When you sin in selfishness, upsetting that unselfish communiation in love, it breaks down communication and it takes some doing to restore it. In sin we cop a selfish attitude and close our heart, in our minds hiding from God in self. Easy to see that may grieve the Spirit and cause negative result on our end. Possibly God by His Spirit may decide to leave us to our selfish selves and our own devices if that's what we want so bad. That's less than good.

Some seem to think that once saved then always God as Father, Son & Holy Spirit is bound and hog-tied with no choices whatsoever over what His side of the relationship will include. Looking deeper in that, it's the same old sin of selfishness showing up: as that person has decided that because they are saved in Christ, God must stick to the rules and bless them continually, regardless of their selfish thoughts & actions. Scripture doesn't tell us that at all. They also may think that because salvation covered all our sins past, present & future then their ongoing sins are of no consequence and they're still guaranteed peace & comforts, again a selfish attitude. They're dismissing God's heart of love that may be grieved.

Holy Spirit residing within us is wounded & grieved every single time we turn inward in selfishness by removing God from our focus of attention. Smug & selfish attitudes don't set well with God regardless of their possible manifestation in a particular sin. Even more, one who is convinced of this eternal security to the extreme may start out with a bad attitude as selfishness from the beginning, never discovering what the relationship could have been had they decided to monitor their every thought & action & give self to God, that it would not grieve the Spirit. That is, had they decided to turn from a smug selfish attitude and actively pour out all their love into God by His Spirit.

 

[JDFree]

Rojoloco, I must say, your replies are quite selfish, no other more appropriate word applies.

I already stated clearly that these enormous posts, broken up in the way that you do, are virtually impossible to reply to. My last reply to your long, convoluted, rambling on & on & on post took all day. One may see by the times shown in my posts that it was fact.

In response to that you, instead of considering another's request for kindness & consideration, post in exactly the same manner, twice! In your first I stopped counting at 75 points of discussuion, each requiring a separate reply. In your second I stopped at 50 points seeking a response, or requiring one.

1] It seems you have been extensively schooled in a church's approved doctrine: correct? Yes? No?

2] Along with that you were taught their interpretation of what Scripture REALLY says, beyond what it plainly says in simple language: correct? Yes? No?

3] Overall the very large majority of your own Scriptural Study & research came AFTER you were in-doctrinated by a religious denomination's doctrinal views and interpretations of all things Christian: correct? Yes? No?

I mentioned it a couple of times but you apparently missed it: I am busy enough studying what the Word of God says to me personally, by that Word speaking to my heart directly. Though I have studied several doctrines of men, constructed into church's systems of belief, it is not a thing of deep interest to me, even precious little. Yes, I have several of Pink's books, as well as an extensive library of Christian commentary.

What I choose is what my Lord & Savior God directs me to choose in His Holy Scripture, and that spoken by Holy Spirit to be penned by the hand of men: to study Scripture daily, to show myself approved of God, and RIGHTLY dividing the Word of Truth. According to Father God, and Jesus Christ His Son, and His Holy Spirit, and His blessed apostles & disciples, that is more than enough: but hey, what do they know, compared to the doctrines of men, right?

 

[MightyAngel1]

<table dir="ltr" width="780" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="center">
</td></tr></tbody></table>>"Show me where it speaks of free will in Scripture. I can guarantee you it doesn't. The closest you will be able to come is showing me verses where it says to make a choice. If this is your plan of action, you will probably say how God would never tell us to make a choice if it were impossible for us to make it. However, I will surely come back with verses commanding you to follow EVERY single one of the 10 commandments. We both know it is impossible to accomplish this (hence, the need for a Savior) but it does not change the fact that we are commanded by God to do it. This alone will negate the initial argument. Now you will be left with nothing to stand on but your own preconceived ideas of free will which, in essence, do not ever exist.
Please don't think I am saying we are all robots.

Howdy JDFREE!

I am not sure who said this above, but, I would like to show in Scripture where God says the Jewish People of the Old Testament, that is the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth, do have free will. God says that they do 2x in the Old Testament under Mosaic Law.

Leviticus 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a a burnt offering.

Numbers 15:3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the heard, or of the flock.

According to the evidence presented in Scripture under the Law of Moses, God declares that the Children of Israel in the Wilderness who are the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth, DO HAVE FREEWILL.

Well, If the Children of Israel under the Law of Moses have FREEWILL, Then, The Seed of Abraham multiplied as the stars of the heaven and the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven, also have FREEWILL in the New Testament under Grace.

Because, God is not a respecter of persons and God does not change.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

 

[MightyAngel1]

Originally Posted by JDFree
***I believe you may be so overwhelmed by a church doctrine that it may be impossible for you to even see beyond it as you study Scripture. That may sound like a slap in the face, but it isn't, brother in Christ! Not saying it isn't a poorly veiled admonition hah! Surely the entire New Testament is fundmentally based on man’s ability to choose for Jesus, or choose for self, absolutely no doubt about that. You already said it yourself, that you do not believe we are robots. Well?


ROJOLOCO--Actually, believe it or not, I used to believe as you did. I believed very much so in free will. I was an Arminian and didn't even know what that was. I was much like you. Although I had no idea what certain doctrines said, they still applied to me. However, once I started doing more and more study on my own and reading the classics and writings of the Puritans, I started to see contradictions between my belief and Scripture. This was about 7 years ago. It was about this time that I started rejecting the ideas of Arminianism and started embracing the ideas of Calvinism. Again, I had no idea what either of these 2 meant. Fast forward another year and I began learning about church doctrines. It's been a roller coaster ride ever since. I proudly declare myself to be a 5 point Calvinist, not because I hold Calvin in high regard (although, I do say he was a man of God), but because the teachings he carried on (from the days of Augustine) align with Scripture as a whole and do not begin with human understanding. They begin with Scripture and they end with Scripture. They begin with God and they end with God.

Howdy Rojoloco!

You used to believe that you have freewill? You proudly declare yourself to be a 5 point Calvinist? John Calvin's teachings began with Scripture and end with Scripture, and, they began with God and they end with God?

Well, God says that you do have freewill. God said in the Old Testament that the Children of Israel under the Law of Moses had freewill. And, God is no respecter of persons and God does not change.

Now, If John Calvin teaches you that you do not have freewill, I can assure you by the evidence of Scripture and by God's own declaration that John Calvin did not get this teaching from God.

John Calvin got this teaching from something else. His own mind that was short of understanding God's Holy Word and short of understanding God's own declaration in Scripture.

I firmly believe that John Calvin saw God's own declaration of the Children of Israel having freewill under the Law of Moses, but, He just could not bring himself to believe it.

So, John Calvin decided to develop his own teaching. And, He did and millions of Christians today believe that they do not have freewill. And, These Christians who hold to Calvinism frown upon those Christians who know that they do have freewill.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike