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Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

Howdy Tusk Barnes!
Jesus also makes mention of the Holy Spirit here...John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Comforter and the Spirit of Truth are names of the Holy Spirit.

Very insightful Angel, although incorrect. You see, even a name like "The Comforter" is open to interpretation. For example, many Muslims point to this verse as a prophetic promise from Jesus of the coming of Mohammad...Not some spiritual ghost. And as far as the Spirit of truth goes, this is no different from Rojoloco's defenses earlier about pillars. Spirit is just as likely to be taken as a literal spirit (etherial ghost) as it is an attitude of honesty (sort of along the lines of team spirit or when you tell someone with a positive outlook, "That's the spirit," or "Atta boy!"). Now you claim that "The Comforter" and the "Spirit of Truth" are names of the Holy Spirit. However, this is something you, and many, have simply read back into scripture. You don't know that this is what it means. When the Trinity and the Holy Spirit were concocted as doctrine around AD 381, they of course had to justify is using their interpretation of Scripture. This actually turned into a political power struggle in the Roman Empire shortly after Constantine "accepted" Christ. Reading things back into Scripture often leads to heresy, and you should tread lightly.



Really? Have you ever read Genesis 18:1-3? Let us take a look at these verses...

Genesis 18:1-3...

1. AND THE Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2. And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground.
3. And said, My Lord, if now I have found favor in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

The Bible says The Lord appeared unto him, that is Abraham, Genesis 17:5, And, Abraham lift up his eyes and saw 3 men standing by him.

The Lord God appeared to Abraham in the form of 3 men. That is, The Father, The Word, and The Holy Spirit appeared unto Abraham.

First of all, The Trinity is NOT 3 men, is it. Again, you are treading on heresy, by reading things back into Scripture. And let's go ahead and assume that this is true. So we have three men appearing who are not given names by the Scripture. Now you have named these three men "The Father, The Word, and The Holy Spirit." Ok, well, since you don't have anything to back up your names, I am just as justified in reading my own ideas back into Scripture and naming these guys Tusk, Frank, and Martin. I would be just as correct as you in saying that the Lord appeared to Abraham in the form of three men, and their names were Tusk, Frank, and Martin.

You can't just make up names for people who aren't named.
 
I'll certainly try. I don't have the answers to everything in Scripture but I certainly can appreciate a challenge. My fear is that this was probably a general list that you got from the internet somewhere and not the result of your own dedicated research. As a result, I fear you may not be interested in my answers and will instead find a quick way to brush them off. I guess we shall see.

NOTE: I do wish you had at least added references in them so I didn't have to take all the time to find these supposed "contradictions" before even being able to answer them.

Very impressive Rojoloco. Very impressive indeed. Please accept my apologies, next time I'll be sure to point out my references to make things a little less arduous.


This one isn't too difficult to explain. Luke and Mark both describe the angel as being a man while Matthew and John both describe it as the angel that it was. However, notice that it is Luke and John that speak of 2 "people" while it is Matthew and Mark that only speak of 1. There is all sorts of crisscrossing going on here. Of course, it isn't abnormal for the Bible to speak of angels as men. The point to look at here is not the amount of angels but rather, the angel being focused on. Luke and John both refer to there being 2 angels while Matthew and Mark choose to focus on the "lead" angel who does the talking. This is actually fairly normal in any person's recount of a story even today. One witness might describe the scene in general while another witness may choose to highlight certain facts.

I like how Norman Geisler puts it: "Matthew does not say there was only one angel. John says there were two, and wherever there are two there is always one; it never fails! The critic has to add the word
"only” to Matthew’s account in order to make it contradictory. But in this case, the problem is not with what the Bible actually says, but with what the critic adds to it."

I don't have to many problems with this apologia, but I do have a few. Geisler points out that a contradiction is not necessarily present because 1 is a subset of 2, and so we can safely assume that there were probably 2 present at the tomb, and depending on the author's stylistics either one or two were focused on. However, by this same reasoning we have no way of knowing exactly how many were present. For all we know it could have been as many as 50 men present at the tomb, and certainly still two men were there...it never fails. So by your own reasoning, how reliable is your own acceptance that "only" two were present?



This is not a contradiction at all. He did carry his own cross. John merely omits the point of how he was helped at a later point. Notice that the entire passage is less detailed than the other Gospel accounts. Again, this is more a matter of how detailed the author is being and not a matter of contradiction.

Actually, if read in the original Greek, John makes it a point to state that Jesus was not helped at all. It is not an omission, it is a blatant correction of the other three gospels. As John was written later, and is undoubtedly the most evangelical of the Gospels, the author wanted to portray Jesus as more supernatural or divine than any of the other three, John was attempting to make Jesus look tough enough to do it all on his own. It's almost as if he was trying to quiet the other Gospels of the notion that Jesus ever needed help. This is still a contradiction.


Between Matthew, Mark, & Luke, at face value, there does appear to be a contradiction. However, when you look at the bigger picture, you can see the point is not in what they are bringing but in how they are trusting God. They were not to take anything but the clothes on their back and a staff which was customary in that day. They were not to take 2 tunics, 2 pairs of sandals, or acquire another staff. The context clearly shows it is more than 1 that they are not supposed to bring and even Matthew points out that they are to not acquire a staff. In fact, even the KJV uses the word in the plural sense. They were to take what they had and trust God on their journey.

You are dodging the question, and trying to paint a pretty picture about trust instead. The fact remains, one verse says "Take NO staff (not staffs)," While other verses suggest taking only a staff. If we are in disagreement here, it is at least because the translations are faulty.



There is no way to know for sure. However, none of this matters. Where there is "Mary and Mary Magdalene," there is surely Mary Magdalene. Where there is "Mary, Mary Magdalene, and Salome," there is surely Mary and Mary Magdalene. Again, this is not a contradiction but a matter of exposed detail. In much the same way, John describes Mary as weeping whereas the other accounts do not. Would any skilled debater count this a contradiction as well? Of course not!

This again is a numbers problem and a demonstration of how easily even ridiculous numbers can be read into Scripture without necessarily contradicting it. It could have just as likely been, Mary, Mary Magdalene, Salome, Jeff, Dave, Susan, Robert, Nancy, and Pat too, right? Not necessarily a contradiction, sure...but an inaccuracy? Yes.


There were 2. Again, where there are 2, there is undoubtedly one. Yet another matter of detail where the author chose to focus on the more dominant one doing the speaking.

We went over the numbers concept already. No need to rehash the past. If there are one or there are two or there are 26 the numbers cannot be relied upon.

He was riding one donkey but there were 2 in attendance. This is a fulfillment of the prophecy found in Zechariah 9:9. The mother donkey was there possibly to console her offspring who had never been ridden (Mark 11:2).

That sounds great on the face of it. Who doesn't love hearing about a mother taking care of her offspring...but you're reading things back into Scripture. The mother may be consoling her offspring, but that's both an anthropomorphism of a donkey, and it's also not what the Bible says.

Both. It appears as if the tree in which he hung himself was on the lot of the field he bought and was overlooking a cliff. More than likely, the rope or branch snapped causing him to fall to the rocks below. This isn't a contradiction but rather, one account complimenting the other.

Again, this is not what the Bible says. You are reading things into Scripture.


First, Matthew and John don't really give any real info on this. That leaves Mark and Luke. However, it is in Acts 1:3 where it says 40 days. Before going any further, we should also note that the text in Mark cannot really be used. The oldest and most reliable manuscripts do not contain Mark 16:9-20. Because of this (and many other reasons), we cannot form doctrine from those verses because they were probably added in at a later point. This leaves only Luke. Considering it was Luke who wrote both Luke & Acts, we don't really have to wonder if there is a contradiction between 2 authors. It was clearly just his style in which he wrote each of them.

So in one case Luke is saying Jesus was carried up to heaven on the day he resurrected. And in Acts, Luke says he stuck around until the Pentecost 40 days later. We know that Luke said both of these things. But which one is true?

From the looks of things, they were probably both reviling him and then one of them repented shortly thereafter.

From the looks of things? Again, this is not what the Bible says.

Matthew calls it wine and gall while Mark calls it wine and myrrh. Gall simply meant that it was something bitter. Myrrh was a numbness inducing agent that was often mixed in with wine and given to crucifixion victims so that they would not struggle as much. Even in Proverbs 31:6, it says to give strong drink to those who are perishing. Again, there is no contradiction here.

Curious how God encourages us to trust in Him through all suffering in some cases, and to trust in the numbing effects of alcohol in other situations.

There are many possibilities here. Notice that it never really says they told the disciples in Matthew. It says they ran to tell them but it never says they actually did tell him. This could mean they never really did at all or, perhaps, they told later on. However, there is the question of why would they run to tell if they were so afraid that they didn't want to tell anybody. Remember, there were multiple women there. It could have been that Matthew focused on the women who went to tell whereas Mark focused on the women who were afraid. There is no way for us to know for sure.

This question was a little more rhetorical. I think we can both safely assume that they ran and told. If they hadn't, how would we know today, right?


I know this is long, but there is a point I had to all of this. You're obviously well versed, but here's where I have a problem. This collection of books is supposed to be perfect, without deficiency. If the Bible were truly perfect, there would be no room for interpretation. There would be no questions, no doubt. There would be no excuse for getting it wrong. There would be one denomination, not 38,000. The fact that you have to exercise your impressive and vast knowledge of apologetics demonstrates that the Scripture itself is lacking and incapable of standing alone. I think you and I could have done a better job together at crafting a flawless and perfect work.
 
Tusk

Well Tusk. I've been following this thread, and all I can say is that twenty five thousand years from today you will be regretting that you blew off the Word. I suggest you come back to Jesus before its too late.

The person who thinks he has all the answers ultimately finds he knows nothing at all.
 
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Well Tusk. I've been following this thread, and all I can say is that twenty five thousand years from today you will be regretting that you blew off the Word. I suggest you come back to Jesus before its too late.

The person who thinks he has all the answers ultimately finds he knows nothing at all.


Hahahaha. Oh my! Are you sure you want to take the thread in this direction? I mean, are fear tactics and threats from on high really an idea we want to address here?
 
Here is one to start you off boy. Unbelievers are mentioned here.

Revelation 21:8

Yeesh. Sounds both scary and painful...And you're telling me this lasts for 25,000 years? All because I find something or someOne's existence unbelievable? That's...well, unbelievable!

But, I gotta tell you, if I had some reason to believe that something this awful was actually going to happen to me, I would probably do just about anything to avoid that sort of agony. So I guess I'd like to know how you know that such a terrifying place exists. What convinced you that this spooky lake of fire and brimstone is real?
 
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Yeesh. Sounds both scary and painful...And you're telling me this lasts for 25,000 years? All because I find something or someOne's existence unbelievable? That's...well, unbelievable!

But, I gotta tell you, if I had some reason to believe that something this awful was actually going to happen to me, I would probably do just about anything to avoid that sort of agony. So I guess I'd like to know how you know that such a terrifying place exists. What convinced you that this spooky lake of fire and brimstone is real?


No It lasts for eternity. I just said 25000 years as a way of saying you will never stop regretting blowing off Jesus.

How do I know it exists?! My Father told me. Did you read it in the bible? Then my Father told you too.
 
I have some personal information about hell & hades but I will not post it on an internet forum. Only in a PM or email.

Regarding a Christian losing their salvation, a couple of points here, mentioned in another post. There's a mighty big difference between sinning here & there in our ongoing walk with the Lord, or setting out to intentionally commit sin as a matter of course in our entire lifestyle. Example: God forgives murder in the sacrifice of Jesus, thank God! So, let's say a person killed somebody, or several somebodies, and then became Christian and repented & changed their ways: FORGIVEN! Or possibly a true Christian believer becomes overcome with anger and in a rage kills somebody, accidentally: FORGIVEN! Let's say a person did the same things of taking a human life then supposedly became Christian, but then spent the rest of their life as a professional hit man: NOT FORGIVEN!

As a Christian it's now a relationship based on the heart & spirit, that we are joined to Jesus by a right heart, right mind and right spirit, and so is His Spirit dwelling within us. Should an unrepentant person expect a heavenly reward of blessed eternal life in the presence of the Holy God? No. Will Holy Spirit dwell within them? No. The sin issue and the relationship with Jesus all hinge on one thing: REPENTANCE! We will not be forgiven for knowingly & intentionally committing sin with no repentance, the Bible is clear on that.

I believe that if we should turn away from the Lord, intentionally commit sin, but then turn back to the Lord: Forgiven! Again, my belief, that if we should turn away from the Lord, deny Him as our God, but repent and turn back, we will be forgiven. Afterall: all of the apostles knowingly denied Jesus as Lord, but then turned back to Him as their Lord & God. Jesus warmly welcomed them back! He even searched them out! Matter of fact, every single time we knowingly commit sin as a Christian we are denying the Lord as our God....
 
Something else, I think directly related to this thread. I've had, as in no longer have, several friends who died very suddenly. In some cases it was instantaneous, and in others very swiftly. Some certainly had no opportunity for a 'Last minute repentance', like real quick hitting up Jesus for a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card.

No, for some it was here one instant, gone the next, like snapping your fingers. Some were very young, even pre-teen! One 11 year old friend died instantaneously.

None of them expected that day & hour and split-second to be their last...
 
Something else, I think directly related to this thread. I've had, as in no longer have, several friends who died very suddenly. In some cases it was instantaneous, and in others very swiftly. Some certainly had no opportunity for a 'Last minute repentance', like real quick hitting up Jesus for a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card.

No, for some it was here one instant, gone the next, like snapping your fingers. Some were very young, even pre-teen! One 11 year old friend died instantaneously.

None of them expected that day & hour and split-second to be their last...



Get out of jail free cards....fire insurance. Many 'Christians' are Christians just for that. They can fall away very easily, but do they lose their salvation? Probably not. The gifts of God are without repentance. Means God will not take them back.
Anyone who 'throws away' their salvation in my understanding was NEVER a Christian to start with. Accepting salvation from Jesus is more than just saying some words. It takes surrender, a contrite heart. It takes repentance. So one who is truly saved does not lose their salvation.

Oh. Now here's a thought.... I have put my life into Jesus' hands. I am saved and...
2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

in order to lose my salvation JESUS would have to lose it.
 
I'm sure that where I have the biggest problem with this is in answering a question that is impossible for me to answer: Was the person ever saved in the first place? Only God knows.

I had a friend once that said he was saved, and said he was a committed Christian, then he decided it wasn't for him at all and became non-Christian willingly. Of course I have no idea if he was really saved, but he insisted he was. Real strange to me.
 
I'm sure that where I have the biggest problem with this is in answering a question that is impossible for me to answer: Was the person ever saved in the first place? Only God knows.

I had a friend once that said he was saved, and said he was a committed Christian, then he decided it wasn't for him at all and became non-Christian willingly. Of course I have no idea if he was really saved, but he insisted he was. Real strange to me.


Hmmm Maybe that's why we are told not to judge. Because we cannot know the heart of our 'victims' I cannot know what my own Lady is feeling unless she tells me. I can surmise based on events etc but how often am I right? If the Lady of my life is a mystery to me, how can I possibly know the heart of the stranger I meet on the street? Or a brother at church?
 
No It lasts for eternity. I just said 25000 years as a way of saying you will never stop regretting blowing off Jesus.

How do I know it exists?! My Father told me. Did you read it in the bible? Then my Father told you too.

Ok, so it lasts for an eternity, and it's awful and it's real, and you know this because your Daddy told you so?

Listen, the case you've just presented, so far at least, is based on nothing more than hearsay. Painfully unconvincing. Is there any chance your Father gave YOU a reason to take Him seriously on this matter? I understand you think He told you in the Bible, but that only shifts the question back another step. What convinced you to believe what He says in the Bible? Is there anything that convinced you this Hell is real? Or is it just because somebody said so?
 
Ok, so it lasts for an eternity, and it's awful and it's real, and you know this because your Daddy told you so?

Listen, the case you've just presented, so far at least, is based on nothing more than hearsay. Painfully unconvincing. Is there any chance your Father gave YOU a reason to take Him seriously on this matter? I understand you think He told you in the Bible, but that only shifts the question back another step. What convinced you to believe what He says in the Bible? Is there anything that convinced you this Hell is real? Or is it just because somebody said so?

Tusk You get to know somebody and you know if they can be trusted or not. I know God can be trusted.

I'm done talking about this.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Am I saying you're a fool? If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....
 
Tusk You get to know somebody and you know if they can be trusted or not. I know God can be trusted.

I'm done talking about this.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Am I saying you're a fool? If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....

Whoa, whoa, whoa. How can you call me a fool, when you haven't even preached the cross to me?! You're the one not doing your job. It's not my fault that I don't believe what you believe, when you won't even tell me why you believe what you do. Check yourself, Hombre. You sound like a Christian.
 
Whoa, whoa, whoa. How can you call me a fool, when you haven't even preached the cross to me?! You're the one not doing your job. It's not my fault that I don't believe what you believe, when you won't even tell me why you believe what you do. Check yourself, Hombre. You sound like a Christian.

Tusk All the other posting on this thread have been sharing the cross with you and all you have done is mocked them and what they shared. What difference would it make for me to tell you that you MUST totally surrender your life to Jesus? You've already said Jesus is a lie.
 
Tusk All the other posting on this thread have been sharing the cross with you and all you have done is mocked them and what they shared. What difference would it make for me to tell you that you MUST totally surrender your life to Jesus? You've already said Jesus is a lie.

The fact of the matter is, Tusk, that you don't have the cojones to accept Jesus on faith. You think we're all a bunch of dupes and less than realistic. But the truth is You're afraid and dishonest with yourself. It takes courage to put your life into somebody's hands

I'm not doing my job? I'm doing exactly as I'm supposed to
 
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