the law

El Hombre viejo · Nov 18, 2010

allforihs said:
Instead of showing why you're wrong several times over, I'll just pick one reason and repeat it, then maybe you'll notice it:

You said we have two laws to follow. You do not keep both those laws. You are therefor under a curse.

Please explain how I don't keep these two laws? And No. If you break these two laws you do not come under the curse. Why not? We are not under the, as you put it, priestly law. We are not under the Mosaic law either. We are under Grace. Grace being the very empowering PRESENSE of God. That does not come with curse. again Why? Where there is no law there is no sin.
These two laws are the laws of Love. The law of Light The Word. In Him there is no shadow of sin at all

allforihs · Nov 18, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
Please explain how I don't keep these two laws?

Do you think you have never failed to love God or to love your neighbor?

Where there is no law there is no sin.

So, you believe if you go out murdering, raping, and pillaging that you are not sinning? What happened to the two laws you have to keep to avoid being cursed?

El Hombre viejo · Nov 18, 2010

allforihs said:
Do you think you have never failed to love God or to love your neighbor?

So, you believe if you go out murdering, raping, and pillaging that you are not sinning? What happened to the two laws you have to keep to avoid being cursed?

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w

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1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in (the anointed one and His anointing) Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in (the anointed one and His anointing) Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of (the anointed one and His anointing), he is none of his.
10And if (the anointed one and His anointing) be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up (the anointed one and His anointing) from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with (the anointed one and His anointing); if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is (the anointed one and His anointing) that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35Who shall separate us from the love of (the anointed one and His anointing)? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in (the anointed one and His anointing) Jesus our Lord.

Interesting. Vs 3-4 intimates that walking by law is walking in the flesh

When I read the Word I always substitute (the anointed one and His anointing) in place of the word Christ. Why? The word ‘Christ has no meaning in the English language, so I substitute the meaning of the word instead. I find that it opens up the Word in a whole new light. It eliminates a lot of confusion too. Try it.
Many times it will be both ‘the anointed one and his anointing’. Sometimes it will be ‘the anointed one’. Other times it will be ‘His anointing’ You will quickly learn to discern which one it is by context.

Iceman · Nov 18, 2010

allforihs said:
Paul's slightly earlier date does not trump four books that quote Jesus in revealing to us Jesus' teachings, from a biblical studies point of view. Not that Paul and Jesus taught different things.

Well that depends entirely on how much you emphasis you place on the intent of the authors. It's very easy to blanket statement 'Word of God' logic to the Bible. But that doesn't help when struggling to understand the scripture.

So, you say again, Christians who don't murder must not eat pork. To wit, you are saying that any Christian who has ever eaten a hotdog better go out and murder someone to make himself right with God.

Reductio ad absurdum just shows that you haven't understood what I am saying at all.

Christians are obligated to keep the law because breaking the law is sin and being in Christ is not a licence to sin, even if it is a "get out of jail free" card. Paul explains that to be saved apart from grace, one would have to keep all of the law. Paul points out that he follows the law.

Paul points out that the law is a soiled toilet rag. He points out that to follow the law is slavery. Paul points out that if you choose to follow the Law, you follow the whole Law. You do not get to pick and choose. Paul points out that Sin is a principality and power over this world, not mere transgressions or failings. Paul points out that power to not Sin comes from Grace and the Spirit, not from Law.

That is the entire point of the Galatians epistle.

Gal 5:2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

Perhaps you are unaware that circumcision is idiom for Law observance. Paul also in Galatians even points out that Jesus has failed to keep the Law "For cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree".

There are some things that need to be addressed.
1. Law is not Morality. So keeping the Law doesn't make you impervious to Sin. Paul points out as much in Romans. Do you think that the Jews never sinned, or had to repent? Even though they had the Law, they did not have Jesus. To attempt to claim the Law is morality is to deny the salvific nature of the Cross.
2. Law is convenental response to the original promises of God. It is not a way in which to show how good a person you are, it is a way of demonstrating fidelity to God. However, Paul points out that the Law is not a part of God's origional promise (i.e. Jesus) and that adding the Law to Jesus, is to make Jesus insufficient for the purpose of Grace. Therefore if you plan to follow the Law, you are bound to follow the whole thing. Not just two. But all 600+. For only following the Law in it's entirety is to demonstrate fidelity to God. Therefore Jesus' summary of what Law is, is to say what it means to be the people of God. Not how to be perfect. That is not possible.
3. The question of morality and thus your rediculous assertation that I am claiming people must go out and murder. Morality comes from God. To Pauline theology from the Spirit specifically. If you think the Law is capable of doing what the Spirit cannot then you have a deficient pneumatology. Is it morality that defines what it means to be Christian? Then there are either no Christians anywhere, for surely God's morality is unachieveable by humanity, or there are Christians everywhere, beause there are moral people all over the world even ones who do not confess Christ.

It is perplexing why anyone feels the need to twist the Law to try and make it fit into some arbitrary position that is ultimately redundant.

allforihs · Nov 18, 2010

Iceman said:
Therefore if you plan to follow the Law, you are bound to follow the whole thing. Not just two. But all 600+. For only following the Law in it's entirety is to demonstrate fidelity to God.

I don't know why you insist on missing the point of what I'm explaining and of what the Bible teaches. It would be one thing to disagree with me, but it's another thing when you miss the point.

We are all bound to follow the law, the law that gives us knowledge of sin. You insist on ignoring is that Jesus covers us for when we fail to follow the law. Jesus didn't come to end sin, but to pay for sin. But, you insist on ignoring this and presenting the false choice of salvation by keeping all the law or salvation by rejecting all the law (which still leaves me unclear as to why you don't go out murdering and raping, too much hassle maybe?).

Also, I vehemently disagree with your assertion that Jesus broke the law. Jesus wasn't made guilty of breaking the law by being hung.

Iceman · Nov 18, 2010

allforihs said:
I don't know why you insist on missing the point of what I'm explaining and of what the Bible teaches. It would be one thing to disagree with me, but it's another thing when you miss the point.

We are all bound to follow the law, the law that gives us knowledge of sin. You insist on ignoring is that Jesus covers us for when we fail to follow the law. Jesus didn't come to end sin, but to pay for sin. But, you insist on ignoring this and presenting the false choice of salvation by keeping all the law or salvation by rejecting all the law (which still leaves me unclear as to why you don't go out murdering and raping, too much hassle maybe?).

No I hear your point well enough. I simply think you're wrong. You repeatedly insist that the Law is some kind of moral compass for humanity, and then the nature of Jesus covers over the crap.

I simply do not see that as Biblical. I think that Jesus is not a get out of jail free card that protects us from all the bad things. That the Gospel requires far more than just staying out of trouble so that we can have a nice guilt free life. I have not once denied the salvation given to us by Jesus. I fervently confess that Jesus died on the cross for Sin, what I deny is that following that death, humanity is still enslaved to Law. The position I present is not false, simply because you have not got the background to see it. My position represents orthodox and scholarly Christianity.

I only present what Paul says, I have given little theological interpretation for that, if you wish to reject it, that is your business. Indeed while you cling to the idea the Law is your moral compass, you will never be able to come to grips with the more significant aspects of Pauline theology.

If you feel you must bind yourself to something in order to be Christian, that is your issue. To me, and Paul, Christianity is about freedom. If you feel that without the Torah, then there is no morality then again, that is your deficient theology. But you could at least take the time to understand what the Torah is, instead of telling it what it is.

Also, I vehemently disagree with your assertion that Jesus broke the law. Jesus wasn't made guilty of breaking the law by being hung.

Then you disagree with Paul, not me.

kevinlb63 · Nov 18, 2010

allforihs said:
I don't know why you insist on missing the point of what I'm explaining and of what the Bible teaches. It would be one thing to disagree with me, but it's another thing when you miss the point.

We are all bound to follow the law, the law that gives us knowledge of sin. You insist on ignoring is that Jesus covers us for when we fail to follow the law. Jesus didn't come to end sin, but to pay for sin. But, you insist on ignoring this and presenting the false choice of salvation by keeping all the law or salvation by rejecting all the law (which still leaves me unclear as to why you don't go out murdering and raping, too much hassle maybe?).

Also, I vehemently disagree with your assertion that Jesus broke the law. Jesus wasn't made guilty of breaking the law by being hung.

allforihs thankls for your post i am with you on this one salvation and law.. for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MightyAngel1 · Nov 18, 2010

Iceman said:
So you're trying to advocate a Law-Abiding Christianity?

I myself am more Pauline on the topic of Law-Observance. The Law-Free mission of Paul is one of the most important topic of Pauline Theology.

Howdy Iceman!

The Law free mission of Paul was teaching the Gentiles that they were no longer under the Letter of God's Law. That is the Old Covenant.

However, The Jews were still required to observe the Letter of the Law of God in the New Testament period.

Yet, Paul taught the Gentiles that they were free from the Letter of the Law of God. Paul also taught the Spirit of the Law of the New Blood Covenant. In Paul's writings, or Epistles, we find the following Spiritual Laws of the New Blood Covenant...

1) The Law of Faith--Romans 3:27
2) The Law of Belief--Romans 10:9-10
3) The Law of the Spirit of Life--Romans 8:2
4) The Law of Prayer--1 Thessalonians 5:17
5) The Law of Study--2 Timothy 2:15

In Romans 8:1, Paul says There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Reason Paul says this is because Paul knew that God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship him in Spirit and in Truth. John 4:24. Paul knew this because Paul was an Hebrew of the Hebrews, and as touching the Law, A Pharisee. Philippians 3:5.

Therefore, When a Christian walks in the Spirit they will fulfill the Spiritual Law of the New Blood Covenant because they will do the following when they walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh...

1) Deny themselves
2) Take up their cross
3) and follow Jesus Christ

See Mark 8:34.

Iceman--The first misconception is that Paul says the Law is bad. He certainly does not. What Paul's position is, is that observing the Law is paramount to slavery (Gal 5:1-3).

The Yoke of bondage that Paul speaks about in Galatians 5:1 is referring to the Letter of the Law of God of the Old Testament.

And, as you are well aware of I am sure, The Law of Circumcision is what the Jews continued to observe after God gave them this Commandment. See Genesis 17:10-14.

The Jews at this time just simply did not understand what God was doing with the Gentiles. According to the Letter of the Law, any stranger that participated with the Jews had to be purchased and then circumcised to even participate in the Feast of Passover. See Exodus 12:43-50.

Otherwise, A Stranger, or Gentile, was not allowed to participate in the Feast of Passover. In essence, They were strictly forbidden.

Iceman--Of course the Lutheran perspective took that fact too far. For a long time protestant theology treated first century Judaism much as Luther saw the medievel catholic church. However one of the greatest tools to come to our aid in that is 4QMMT (4th Cave of the Qumran scrolls, dealing with the works of the Law). We know that Paul didn't see the works of the Law as an attempt to earn salvation, but rather as a response to the promises of God.

The question this raises is why then does Paul do away with the Law?

The answer is simple. Segregation. You cannot be a Law-observant community, and a open and loving community. Paul's struggle with the Judaisers epitomses that.

Because the Judaisers did not understand what God was doing. Paul did because Jesus revealed God's Plan to him. See Galatians 1:11-12.

Iceman--The final issue is the modern idea that the Law is a sort of moral badge. A this is how good people behave issue. Well Paul does away with that again (Romans 2) and instead of saying Circumcision makes the man of God, it is now the spirit. In otherwords, morality comes from the Spirit of God, not from Law.

I agree on this point. You cannot legislate morality.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

El Hombre viejo · Nov 18, 2010

allforihs said:
I don't know why you insist on missing the point of what I'm explaining and of what the Bible teaches. It would be one thing to disagree with me, but it's another thing when you miss the point.

We are all bound to follow the law, the law that gives us knowledge of sin. You insist on ignoring is that Jesus covers us for when we fail to follow the law. Jesus didn't come to end sin, but to pay for sin. But, you insist on ignoring this and presenting the false choice of salvation by keeping all the law or salvation by rejecting all the law (which still leaves me unclear as to why you don't go out murdering and raping, too much hassle maybe?).

Also, I vehemently disagree with your assertion that Jesus broke the law. Jesus wasn't made guilty of breaking the law by being hung.

allforihs I do have one question for you.....Why do you need knowledge of sin? Aren't you already saved?
Romans 8:1-4 (Amplified Bible)

Romans 8

1THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.
3For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [a</a>]">[a]the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [b</a>]">[b]subdued, overcame, c</a>]">[c]deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice],
4So that the righteous and just requirement of the Law might be fully met in us who live and move not in the ways of the flesh but in the ways of the Spirit [our lives governed not by the standards and according to the dictates of the flesh, but controlled by the Holy Spirit].

Iceman · Nov 18, 2010

MightyAngel1 said:
Howdy Iceman!

Hello again Mike!!!

However, The Jews were still required to observe the Letter of the Law of God in the New Testament period.

Yes of course.

Yet, Paul taught the Gentiles that they were free from the Letter of the Law of God. Paul also taught the Spirit of the Law of the New Blood Covenant. In Paul's writings, or Epistles, we find the following Spiritual Laws of the New Blood Covenant...

There's an important distinction there isn't there?

1) The Law of Faith--Romans 3:27

Click to expand...

This is clear rhetoric. There is no destinction between the Letter of the Law and the Law. It is important to keep in mind what a Jewish perception of Law is when dealing with Judaisers.

2) The Law of Belief--Romans 10:9-10

Click to expand...

That is not Law in any sense of the word.

3) The Law of the Spirit of Life--Romans 8:2

Click to expand...

This one is actually the heart of the matter. As I have said before, Paul has a distinction between Spirit and Law. Here he terms is law of Spirit, and Law of Death. Only one is Torah.

4) The Law of Prayer--1 Thessalonians 5:17

Click to expand...

Again, not Law in any sense of the word,

5) The Law of Study--2 Timothy 2:15

Click to expand...

I think you have appropriated the term Law and changed what it means. You are using it to relate to things a Christian should do, what it means is Torah and Torah observance. ie. circumcision.

In Romans 8:1, Paul says There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Reason Paul says this is because Paul knew that God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship him in Spirit and in Truth. John 4:24. Paul knew this because Paul was an Hebrew of the Hebrews, and as touching the Law, A Pharisee. Philippians 3:5.

Therefore, When a Christian walks in the Spirit they will fulfill the Spiritual Law of the New Blood Covenant because they will do the following when they walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh...

I disagree with your reasoning. The Spirit is the Spirit, but perhaps you are not Trinitarian? I certainly believe Paul reinterperets the Law. He says that the Law is summarised as love. But again I say, that the Law was how to be the people of God, so this summary doesn't mean "Follow Law" it means, this is instead how to be the people of God.

The Yoke of bondage that Paul speaks about in Galatians 5:1 is referring to the Letter of the Law of God of the Old Testament.

Again I dislike the taste of this distinction between Letter and Spirit of Law. I think it is far more accurate to use terms as Spirit of God and Torah.

And, as you are well aware of I am sure, The Law of Circumcision is what the Jews continued to observe after God gave them this Commandment. See Genesis 17:10-14.

The Jews at this time just simply did not understand what God was doing with the Gentiles. According to the Letter of the Law, any stranger that participated with the Jews had to be purchased and then circumcised to even participate in the Feast of Passover. See Exodus 12:43-50.

Otherwise, A Stranger, or Gentile, was not allowed to participate in the Feast of Passover. In essence, They were strictly forbidden.

Yes indeed. The important distinction here is Judaisers are JEWS. Which is why I have said, if you advocate a Law-abiding Christianity, you are advocating Judaism. Christianity isn't recognised as Christianity until Paul. The Church of Jerusalem undoubtedly expected it's member to be Jewish. This is the distinction betwen Law-free and Law-abiding. Essentially Jewish and Gentile.

Because the Judaisers did not understand what God was doing. Paul did because Jesus revealed God's Plan to him. See Galatians 1:11-12.

I would agree with that. In fact I think that's one of my main points.

Mike I love your style. But I'm not sure you've actually summarised your position. I take it that your distinction of Letter and Spirit of Law allows you to say we follow Law, albiet in spirit form, but I'm not sure.

Again I would simply say, Torah is about how to be God's people, and Paul changes that entire idea. This allows us to not have to be Jews to be Christians. It is again, not an issue of morality.

paganmystic · Nov 19, 2010

Sorry about the week absence, my daughter was ill and had to travel half the province for treatment. I have a lot of catching up to do. But I'm starting here.

Iceman said:
the big problem with your Logic is that Paul never actually knew Jesus. He is the aborted apostle.

First of all, what the heck is an aborted apostle.

I hope you are not saying that Jesus is irrelative to our faith and belief. Ignoring the first 4 books of the New Testiment, if you are I will be walking away from this conversation. The New Testament is all about Jesus and what he taught us and how to continue His work in regathering His flock.

Let's see, Paul did meet Jesus. Jesus shed the Light of God on him on the road to Damascus. He was not an abortion of any kind. During Jesus' 3 or so year Ministry Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus, was completing his studies at Hilliel House, probibly the most prestigious training centre for the Pharisees. His first job as one of the Pharisees was to apprehend, by force if necessary, Jews following Jesus' teachings and get them to the Great Temple for judgement. Every letter he wrote to the followers of Jesus he told the story too. (in otherwords all the Letters he wrote). Acts 9:1-19. He recieved the Spirit by a laying on of hands by Ananias in Damascus.

The only Paulines I ever knew wore skirts and ponytails. I will never raise up a man ahead of Jesus. As all the disciples he taught what Jesus gave him to teach, nothing more... nothing less. The reason he was feared by the other disciples originally was because they knew who Saul of Tarsis was and figured his acceptance of Christ was a rouse to apprehend them.

Iceman said:
Of course if you take Paul's Gospel Revelation seriously, and I do, then God revealed to him that the purpose of the Law has come to fulfillment with Jesus, and is replaced by the Spirit.

There is another serious error here as well. Revelations is not a Gospel, it is a prophetic dream of the future and addressed to the churches of Asia Minor. The dream was given to the Apostle John while in exile.

MightyAngel1 · Nov 20, 2010

<tt><tt>Howdy Once again, Iceman!

MightyAngel1--However, The Jews were still required to observe the Letter of the Law of God in the New Testament period.

Iceman--Yes of course.

I am glad you agree on this point.

MightyAngel1--Yet, Paul taught the Gentiles that they were free from the Letter of the Law of God. Paul also taught the Spirit of the Law of the New Blood Covenant. In Paul's writings, or Epistles, we find the following Spiritual Laws of the New Blood Covenant...

Iceman--There's an important distinction there isn't there?

Absolutely, There is a Distinction. Yes sir!!

MightyAngel1--1) The Law of Faith--Romans 3:27

Iceman--This is clear rhetoric.

Kindly stated, I do not believe that the Apostle Paul wrote rhetoric. Because, Jesus Christ did not reveal to Paul rhetoric.

Iceman--There is no destinction between the Letter of the Law and the Law.

Yes Sir, There is.

Iceman--It is important to keep in mind what a Jewish perception of Law is when dealing with Judaisers.

I agree with you on this point. The Only concept that they knew and understood is the Law of Moses. I am certain that you will agree with that.

MightyAngel1--2) The Law of Belief--Romans 10:9-10

Iceman--That is not Law in any sense of the word.

Well, maybe, John 3:18 will help you here. There is an (implied) Law of belief and there is an (implied) Law of unbelief. And, Both have a reward.

John 3:18 He that believeth is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The Reward for belief is living with Jesus for Eternity. The Reward for unbelief is Eternity in the Lake of Fire.

MightyAngel1--3) The Law of the Spirit of Life--Romans 8:2

Iceman--This one is actually the heart of the matter. As I have said before, Paul has a distinction between Spirit and Law. Here he terms is law of Spirit, and Law of
Death. Only one is Torah.

Yes, The Law of the Spirit of Life is the heart of the matter of the New Blood Covenant. Also, The Law of Faith is a second matter of the New Blood Covenant.

Matter of fact, Jesus refers to judgment, mercy, and faith as weightier matters of the Law. Matthew 23:23.

MightyAngel1--4) The Law of Prayer--1 Thessalonians 5:17

Iceman--Again, not Law in any sense of the word,

Pray without ceasing is not a suggestion. Nor, Is prayer something a Christian should do twice a year when they think about it. Pray without ceasing is a Commandment.

Therefore, A Commandment is Law. In this case, A Spiritual Law or Spirit of the Law.

MightyAngel1--5) The Law of Study--2 Timothy 2:15

Iceman--I think you have appropriated the term Law and changed what it means. You are using it to relate to things a Christian should do, what it means is Torah and
Torah observance. ie. circumcision.

No Sir. I have not changed what the word Law means. It is vitally important for Christians to understand in the New Testament that not only is God Love, but, God is also Law.

No Human being can get away from Law because God is Law. Yet, God is also Mercy. See 1 John 1:9.

MightyAngel1--In *Romans 8:1, Paul says There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit*.

The Reason Paul says this is because Paul knew that God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship him in Spirit and in Truth. *John 4:24*.

Paul knew this because Paul was an Hebrew of the Hebrews, and as touching the Law, A Pharisee. *Philippians 3:5*.

Therefore, When a Christian walks in the Spirit they will fulfill the Spiritual Law of the New Blood Covenant because they will do the following when they walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh...

Iceman--I disagree with your reasoning.

Okay. That is fine.

Iceman--The Spirit is the Spirit, but perhaps you are not Trinitarian?

Yes, The Spirit is the Spirit. And, Yes, I am very much Trinitarian. I believe in The God of Abraham, The God of Isaac, and The God of Jacob. Exodus 3:15.

Iceman--I certainly believe Paul reinterperets the Law.

Well, I have a question for you. Do you believe that the Father changes? According to Malachi 3:6 in part, God (The Father) changes not.

According to Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ (The Son) does not change.

Therefore, When Jesus Christ revealed to Paul God's Plan concerning the Gentiles, see Romans 16:25, Paul wrote what Jesus Christ gave him word for word. Paul did not reinterpret anything Jesus gave him.

I would respectfully disagree with you on this point. Because if what you say is true, Then, The argument could be made that Paul taught another Gospel contrary to what Jesus gave him. I do not believe this to be so.

Iceman--He says that the Law is summarised as love.

Yes, He did. The question is...Which part? Do you see? God's Law has two components.

The Letter or Torah, or the written Law, and the Spirit of the Law, or Spiritual Law. Because God is a Spirit according to John 4:24.

The Letter of the Law, or The Torah, is Judgment. The Spirit of the Law is Love, Mercy, forgiveness, Faith, and Power.

Iceman--But again I say, that the Law was how to be the people of God, so this summary doesn't mean "Follow Law" it means, this is instead how to be the people of God.

Exactly, The Law was how to be the people of God regarding the Letter of the Law. And You say quote...so the summary doesn't mean "Follow Law" it means, this is instead how to be the people of God.EOQ

So, How does a group of believers in Jesus Christ be the people of God when they are not required to FOLLOW LAW, that is the Letter of the Law?

Here is the answer. They live the Spirit of the Law through Worship, Prayer, Bible Study, walking in Faith, and witnessing by the Ministry of Reconciliation. See John 4:24 and 2 Corinthians 5:18.

Suffice it to say, They Live by FAITH which is the Spirit of the Law. When they do, They fulfill the Law of Faith. Romans 3:27 and Hebrews 11:6. When they live by Faith and Worship God in Spirit and Truth, They are Law Free.

Because, Where the Spirit of the Lord is, There is Liberty.

MightyAngel1--The Yoke of bondage that Paul speaks about in *Galatians 5:1* is referring to the Letter of the Law of God of the Old Testament.

Iceman--Again I dislike the taste of this distinction between Letter and Spirit of Law. I think it is far more accurate to use terms as Spirit of God and Torah.

You dislike the taste of this distinction? Very good.

MightyAngel1--And, as you are well aware of I am sure, The Law of Circumcision is what the Jews continued to observe after God gave them this Commandment. See *Genesis
17:10-14*.

The Jews at this time just simply did not understand what God was doing with the Gentiles. According to the Letter of the Law, any stranger that participated with the Jews had to be purchased and then circumcised to even participate in
the Feast of Passover. See *Exodus 12:43-50*.

Otherwise, A Stranger, or Gentile, was not allowed to participate in the Feast of Passover. In essence, They were strictly forbidden.

Iceman--Yes indeed. The important distinction here is Judaisers are JEWS. Which is why I have said, if you advocate a Law-abiding Christianity, you are advocating
Judaism. Christianity isn't recognised as Christianity until Paul.

I agree with you on Paul and the Judaisers. You say quote...If you advocate a Law-abiding Christianity, you are advocating Judaism.EOQ

Only when you advocate Law abiding regarding the Torah. I do not advocate Law abiding regarding the Torah. We have been set free from this Law by what Christ did on the Cross.

Therefore, We live Free from the Letter of the Law, i.e. Torah, and Live Free by the Spirit of the Law of the New Blood Covenant.

Do you see? The Faith of Jesus is the Law of Faith. And, The Seed of Abraham multiplied as the stars of the heaven are the only seed in the Seed Covenant of Abraham to have the Faith of Jesus.

Iceman--The Church of Jerusalem undoubtedly expected it's member to be Jewish.

Yes, They did. See Acts 11:19.

Iceman--This is the distinction betwen Law-free and
Law-abiding. Essentially Jewish and Gentile.

I agree. Law abiding for the Jews in the New Testament. i.e. The Saints that keep the Commandments of God and have the Faith of Jesus. See Revelation 14:12 and Acts 2:1.

And, Law Free by the Spirit of the Law for the Gentile. That is living free by the Law of Faith, The Law of Belief, The Law of Salvation, The Law of Study, and the Law of Prayer.

MightyAngel1--Because the Judaisers did not understand what God was doing. Paul did because Jesus revealed God's Plan to him. See *Galatians 1:11-12*.

Iceman--I would agree with that. In fact I think that's one of my main points.

Very good.

Iceman--Mike I love your style.

Well, Thanks.

Iceman--But I'm not sure you've actually summarised your position. I take it that your distinction of Letter and Spirit of Law allows you to say we follow Law, albiet in spirit form, but I'm not sure.

My position is quite simple. We live free from the Letter of the Law by the Spirit of the Law of the New Blood Covenant when we walk in the Spirit. Romans 8:1 and Galatians 5:22-23.

Galatians 5:22-23 are the fruit of the Spirit that is displayed in the life of a Believer who lives free by the Spirit of the Law of the New Blood Covenant.

Iceman--Again I would simply say, Torah is about how to be God's people, and Paul changes that entire idea. This allows us to not have to be Jews to be Christians. It is again, not an issue of morality.

Yours in Christ,

I would agree with you on your point about Paul changing that entire idea. And, Yes, He did. Paul changes that idea by teaching the Spirit of the Law, not the Letter of the Law. Paul teaches the weightier matters of the Law.

Walking in Love, Walking in Faith, Walking in Power, and Walking in the Spirit. Because, The Just shall live by Faith. That is the Law of Faith, i.e. The Faith of Jesus. And, This is Christianity--Law Free. Not Law abiding.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike
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JDFree · Nov 20, 2010

Please forgive me if I plow the same field again.

One of the major distinctions between the substance of the '2 Laws' of Jewish old covenant Law and new covenant Spiritual Law is that the former was a continuous outward display, and all but one is physical acts that could be accomplished and checked off a physical list. 1] No other Gods, check. 2] No graven image, check. 3] No cursing, check. 4] Keep Sabbath, check. 5] Honor father/mother, check. 6] No murder today, check. 7] No adultery, check. 8] No theft, check. 9] No false witnessing, check. 10] No covetousness, check. Plus 647 Levitical Ordinances, check. From that they made wide the borders of their phylactories [sp] or robes, PROUD of their personal holiness among their fellows.

Through Paul they were taught the inward Spiritual Law, and shown that personal pride was not the measure of the law, but was the measure of their sin: self was the enemy! As Paul explained, he and they broke the 10th Commandment, the only one that was not physical, by covetting holiness and a good public face in the old outward law!

In the new covenant and its Spiritual Law the man was all alone with his Holy God, with only HIS PERFECT HOLINESS to compare their shabby personal holiness to! By this the fringe on their robes was shown to be tattered, ragged and dirty from the dirt of the wayward feet of their minds and hearts pridefully walking through the world.

As for Paul's apostolic credentials, Luke the author of Acts was most certainly close to Jesus. In addition, after Paul's 3 1/2 years in the desert he presented himself before the entire Jerusalem church and all the elders, including the head of the church James, the half brother of Jesus. He was fully & completely accepted as the genuine article, based on his personal encounter with the Person of Jesus Christ, face to face, and being personally chosen, just as they had known Him.

The fact that he is not only mentioned by Luke in the book of Acts but is also given well over half of the print in that book to tell of his ministry rather implies that he was, is, and ever will be at the very least equal to any other apostle.

For that matter, how many of the other 12 apostles are even mentioned in the Acts of the apostles or Scripture in general; other than listing their names elsewhere that we'd even know of them? James the son of Alpheus? Judas the brother of James and half brother of Jesus? That's apparently Lebbaeus/Thaddeus/Judas/Jude [all said to be the same person, some say the same person as 'Judas the brother of James' and half brother of Jesus, also called Jude and said to be author of book of Jude - see Jude 1:1]? How about Matthias? Can Luke's recounting of the Acts of the apostles be considered sound doctrine to live by? Remember, Luke was NOT an apostle! How about the veracity of the Gospel of Mark? Trustworthy for sound doctrine? He also was not one of the 12 apostles! Paul was.

Fact is, it appears that Jesus personally chose Paul as the replacement 12th apostle, to stand where fallen Judas had failed. The other apostles chose a man, Matthias, for that position, and it was valid as given by lots with God; but certainly the choice of Paul was far more dynamic and was a personal action of Jesus Christ himself. However they did in that act of casting lots say, "This one, or this one, Lord?" which allowed their determinations or pre-conceived notions to weight and limit the results. Matthias is never heard of again. Paul was. I'm also convinced that it was Paul who wrote the book of Hebrews, from the linguistics, command of language, use of particular phrases, mention of being held in bonds of captivity, and the perspective of the letter itself.

God of the Old Covenant said in Jeremiah 31:31-34, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Judah and with the house of Israel: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the Lord. But this shall be the covenant I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least to the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

And said in New Covenant, Hebrews 8:7-10, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault them, He saith, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regaded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts,: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that He saith a new [covenant], He hath made the first old. Now that which is decayed and waxed old is ready to vanish away." [Perdition: from 'apoleia': ruin, loss; used as - damnable, destruction, die, perdition, perish, pernicious ways, waste.]

This is followed in Hebrews 10:36-11:2, "For ye have need of patience, that after ye have done the will of God ye might receive the promises. For yet a little while and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back into perdition: but of them that believe: to the saving of the soul. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders received a good report."

It's important to see, for the sake of conversations, that regardless of the intimate details of personal belief and disagreements over the current substance of the law, all are covered in the Blood of the Lamb as all are forgiven their iniquities, if they should believe. However to draw back into the old way of the law causes displeasure in the Lord's soul, partially because of its potential for abuse of others and also unwarranted pride in self.

paganmystic · Nov 20, 2010

Thanks JDFree. Like I stated first in my last post I was away for a week, and have to catch up.

I like what you posted but so many people still simply don't understand what Jesus taught, instead focus only on what the disciples taught to other cultures about issues specific to that culture and try to reason in their own reasoning and thereby wrongly raising the writer to being more essential for Christianity than Jesus himself.

The laws which are argrued here which I agree with is Judaism, Ba'al worship and non-believers which is of neither. These are all man-made religions (Not of God) that is what I referred to in my orginal post when this started. Something I have always maintained.

First Judaism, true it is based on the Old Testament and reflects Jewish Law as given by the prophets BUT, as it was administered by men and men can be corrupted that law to has become corrupted, something that has lead to may disciplinary measures by God against, "his people", in the O.T. The first post I made I referred to Matt 15:1-20 & 16:5-12. but where the Pharisees and Sadducees are concerned Jesus was very brutal on them because of Matt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware the leaven of the bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees & Sadducees. This was mentioned in Matt 15:1-20 man putting his own self-anoited traditions ahead of God. The same applies to idolizing simple men for doing as Jesus commanded.

Ba'al worship was used by all the other cultures which has it origin between 4500-5000 b.c. re:Gen 10:8-12. It was spread around the world after the collapse of the original Babylonian Empire. It flourished generations later in Egypt, Greece & Rome, in Europe via the Druids & then Wicca. The worship of the sun god, Bel, Bal or Sol.

Even using the distinction of Spiritual Law still has the ability to confuse what Jesus taught by leading people to believe they have both a Spiritual life and physical one which is also untrue and unChristian. We see that too in the Gospel Matt 12:33-37, Your Life Shows What You Are, this is re-enforced in Luke 6:43-45 and taught to a group of Roman believers by Paul in Romans 5:1-10, so Paul as all the disciples simply taught what Jesus did as we also must do.

spirit1st · Nov 20, 2010

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2Co 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Those are the Only LAWS God puts in His holy children!

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jesus was Born in the old testament , under the Law of moses! HE# DIED to become the NEW TESTAMENT!

The christian lives in and of The New Testament . Which is Jesus Christ

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

JDFree · Nov 20, 2010

"The christian lives in and of The New Testament . Which is Jesus Christ"

Not quite correct there, at least in the original Christian church. There was no New Testament at all for at least 30-50 years, and then only consisting of a couple of letters written to people or churches.

In the beginning as Christians searched the Scripture it was the Old Testament with its prophecies and proofs of God. Even the Bereans scoured the OLD Word of God, the Torah, to prove the truth of teachings coming after Jesus. Other than that, it was all verbal, spoken and shared in meetings in people's homes, which formed the basis for the Christianity we know today.

spirit1st · Nov 20, 2010

Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Only one true church! His Body!
It unseen and its Eternal!
It only our Spirit that is Gods Holy Child!

Iceman · Nov 21, 2010

paganmystic said:
First of all, what the heck is an aborted apostle.

That is Paul. 1 Cor 15:8 Paul describes himself as such. Don't be mistaken by the prudence of english translations glossing over how harsh the language is in the Greek. There is a back story to why he calls himself such, but that is not the point here.

paganmystic said:
There is another serious error here as well. Revelations is not a Gospel, it is a prophetic dream of the future and addressed to the churches of Asia Minor. The dream was given to the Apostle John while in exile.

I'm afraid the error is yours. The term for revelation is apokalypsis and yes it does appear in the Galatians epistle. More importantly though is that your definition is wrong. Revelation is to have something revealed to you in a way that you could never have achieved on your own. It is not some kind of future prediction, and is more than just the Book of Revelation. Perhaps you now see where that book gets its name.

Hi Mike.

MightyAngel1 said:
Kindly stated, I do not believe that the Apostle Paul wrote rhetoric. Because, Jesus Christ did not reveal to Paul rhetoric.

I don't see the need (or really the space

) to discuss all the other aspects before this one. There is no evidence, even if you presume God/Jesus dictated Paul's epistles word for word, to say that there is no rhetoric involved. There is no Biblical evidence or otherwise that can claim that. It is a presumption. Instead the internal Biblical evidence we do have, is that Paul has clear example of Greek rhetoric. His rhetorical devices are self evident to anyone familiar with the Greek language. For example his clear use of prosopopoeia. Even if you do presume that Jesus dictates Paul's words, that is no reason to presume Jesus did not dictate in rhetoric. There is only evidence for one side. ie. Paul uses rhetoric. In addition to that is the added collection of the larger scale of the Bible. The Bible is not a single work. It is a collection. It has narrative, poetry, history, apocalypticism ect ect. The Bible is a work of art, and I have no doubts that understanding this art as it is presented is key in understanding not only Bible scholarship, but also faith. For when read as what they were written as, the words of the Bible can tug the soul, reduce men to tears, and make demands of any believer.

MightyAngel1 said:
Walking in Love, Walking in Faith, Walking in Power, and Walking in the Spirit. Because, The Just shall live by Faith. That is the Law of Faith, i.e. The Faith of Jesus. And, This is Christianity--Law Free. Not Law abiding.

I agree entirely. I simply think the Law of Faith is Distinguished from Law.

JDFree said:
s for Paul's apostolic credentials, Luke the author of Acts was most certainly close to Jesus. In addition,

I'm not sure how this has bearing. Luke doesn't get Paul right. He doesn't get him wrong exactly, but he certainly doesn't get him right. The prime example is Pauline chronology. Luke's timeframe and missionary journey's do not match what Paul himself says. The difference between the two is measured in years, and number of trips. I'm just curious how you resolve that.

JDFree said:
It's important to see, for the sake of conversations, that regardless of the intimate details of personal belief and disagreements over the current substance of the law, all are covered in the Blood of the Lamb as all are forgiven their iniquities, if they should believe. However to draw back into the old way of the law causes displeasure in the Lord's soul, partially because of its potential for abuse of others and also unwarranted pride in self.

You make a good point. I think the divergence of modern understanding stems from not understanding what the Law truly represents.

For a long time any interpretation of Paul has required us to mirror-read him. We only have one side of the argument. We only have Paul's. We don't really know what the Judaisers are saying, and so we look at what Paul says, and infer basically the opposite. This obviously presents a huge human falibility element to translation. However we have many aids that help us place it in its context.

4QMMT allows us a glimpe at the Judaisers argument. This letter follows very closely the letter of Galatians. It is indeed remarkable just how well they match up, and how much insight we glean.

Talmudic and first century commentators give us insights into thought and position.

And of course, there is the Bible itself.

The Law is what makes someone Jewish. It is not how to be good, but how to be God's people. There were good people who were not Jews, and thus are not God's people. These people are Gentiles

Paul's letter to the Galatians is written with very specific intent. Galatia is a gentile community. Paul founded a church there, that did not follow the Law. Most likely did not even know about it. Then the Judaisers arrived. They told the Galatians that they must, in order to be counted as God's people, follow at least some of these Laws. Paul writes to defend his origional Gospel against the Gospel of the Judaisers. In his defence he makes these points:
1. They were saved by faith in Jesus. This is what made them God's people. They do not need to adopt circumcision.
2. If they chose to try and have themselves justified in the flesh, justified by Law, they became enslaved to the Law. For only complete Law observance is enough to demonstrate that you are God's people.
3. The Law was never meant to be kept. It is an addition to God's origional promise, and could never accomplish the same as Jesus. It is to demonstrate human weakness.
4. It is God's Spirit, and Christ that marks someone as a Christian. The time of Law has passed, nailed to the cross with Jesus.

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