the law

[kevinlb63]

matthew 5 verse 17 thru 19
17 Think not that I am{ come to destroy the law}, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, {Till heaven and earth pass},{ one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass! from the law}, {till all
be fulfilled.}
19 {Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven}: but whosoever shall do and teach them!!, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven!

 

[Iceman]

So you're trying to advocate a Law-Abiding Christianity?

I myself am more Pauline on the topic of Law-Observance. The Law-Free mission of Paul is one of the most important topic of Pauline Theology. The first misconception is that Paul says the Law is bad. He certainly does not. What Paul's position is, is that observing the Law is paramount to slavery (Gal 5:1-3).

Of course the Lutheran perspective took that fact too far. For a long time protestant theology treated first century Judaism much as Luther saw the medievel catholic church. However one of the greatest tools to come to our aid in that is 4QMMT (4th Cave of the Qumran scrolls, dealing with the works of the Law). We know that Paul didn't see the works of the Law as an attempt to earn salvation, but rather as a response to the promises of God.

The question this raises is why then does Paul do away with the Law?

The answer is simple. Segregation. You cannot be a Law-observant community, and a open and loving community. Paul's struggle with the Judaisers epitomses that.

The final issue is the modern idea that the Law is a sort of moral badge. A this is how good people behave issue. Well Paul does away with that again (Romans 2) and instead of saying Circumcision makes the man of God, it is now the spirit. In otherwords, morality comes from the Spirit of God, not from Law.

 

[kevinlb63]

so what you are saying is jesus is a lair!!!!!!!!!!
these are quotes from jesus!!!!!!!!!
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>17</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>18</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>For verily I say unto you,{ Till heaven and earth pass}, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law}, till all be fulfilled.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>19</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Whosoever therefore shall { break one of these least commandments}, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven}}: but whosoever shall do and {{ teach them }}, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[kevinlb63]

how can paul do away with the law !!!!!! he has no athority when it come to gods law!!!!

 

[Iceman]

so what you are saying is jesus is a lair!!!!!!!!!!

No I'm not saying that at all. But perhaps there is more depth to scripture than what you see. For is not ALL scripture inspired? Then is not Paul inspired?

how can paul do away with the law !!!!!! he has no athority when it come to god law!!!!

Sure that's one way of dealing with it.
Try to down play Paul.
Problem with that is Paul is the majority of the New Testament, so you end up doing away with the majority of the New Testament.

Of course if you take Paul's Gospel Revelation seriously, and I do, then God revealed to him that the purpose of the Law has come to fulfillment with Jesus, and is replaced by the Spirit.

My question is this though. Do you follow the Law? Do you worship at the temple in Jerusalem? Do you rigidly observe the sabbath and food laws? are you circumcised? Are you Jewish? Because Law-Observant Christianity is Christian-Judaism. If you do not count yourself a Jew, you are not a Law-abiding Christian. The Law is far more monumental than you may realise. It is an all encompasing and monolithic device.

According to Scripture, God revealed to Paul that the Law-free mision was to advance. So then what is it to be?

Law-Free, or Law-Abiding?

 

[The Robster]

so what you are saying is jesus is a lair!!!!!!!!!!
these are quotes from jesus!!!!!!!!!
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>17</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>18</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>For verily I say unto you,{ Till heaven and earth pass}, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law}, till all be fulfilled.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>19</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Whosoever therefore shall { break one of these least commandments}, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven}}: but whosoever shall do and {{ teach them }}, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Jesus isn't a liar. But you don't understand what those scriptures mean. Are we supposed to go back to the Old Covenant that is buried? If you think you need to be under the Law then you have certainly cheapened grace and what Jesus did at the Cross. You seem to forget that when Jesus walked, He was operating and living under the Old Covenant. You need to look at the context in which He made those statements. He was not operating under the New Covenant. Jesus did not make those statements after the New Covenant was established. It was BEFORE. Its all about context and dividing between both of the covenants.

 

[paganmystic]

The truth is kevinlb63 is absolutely right. So many people use the Letters of the Apostles as the only true answer. The truth is given to us in them because Jesus commanded the disciples to teach the world as he taught them. They did, sorry Iceman. Although it was awkwardly posted in the Gospel Matthew quotes Jesus in 5:19-20. What else did Jesus teach. Look at John 15:8-11.

The Gal 5:1-3 you are so familiar with does have its root in the Gospel, again more quotes from Jesus, as he commanded. In Matthew 15:1-20, a condemnation of the traditions man made for religion sake diverting the congregation from God. Jesus was just as brutal on his own Jewish faith. Matthew 16:5-12. The Law of circumcision was one such law that does not lead to the Lord. The Judaizers were twisting Jesus' teachings confusing the message to the Galatians, This letter was to set-straight the record. In Galatians 1:6-10. Paul makes sure it is understood that there is only one Gospel , that is the 1st 4 books of the New Testament which again brings us to John 15:10.

Everything that is taught via the letters all have their roots in the Gospel, Jesus' own teaching. Christians are NOT fragmented and disorganized, and most of all NOT lawless

 

[Iceman]

No I'm afraid I'm going to call that one out.

The truth is given to us in them because Jesus commanded the disciples to teach the world as he taught them.

the big problem with your Logic is that Paul never actually knew Jesus. He is the aborted apostle.

You are still running into the same problem. The fact that Paul and the Apostles at Jerusalem did not get on is no secret.

You've neglected one key aspect of Paul by claiming "some of this Law and some of that" and that is Paul writes "If you follow ONE Law you are cursed to follow ALL Law."

Now I agree that Galatians is written to set the record straight about Law observance. The thing is though the Galatian church was founded without ANY Law. It was a completely Gentile church. To now say that some Law must be added to that community is to say the grace of Christ was inadequate.

When Paul says only one Gospel he means Law-free or Law-abiding. There are no two ways about it. You cannot pick and choose to follow some Law, or all. Law is NOT an act of morality or a code of behaviour. It is a covenental response to God. So if you burden yourself with one Law, you must adopt the yoke of all of it. That's clear in not only Paul, but in the OT as well.

I certainly agree that the epistles are rooted in the Gospel. But Christian were fragmented...why do you think the argument over the Judaisers and circumcision? Why the problems in Jerusalem? Why didn't James help Paul to be released in Jerusalem when he had as much power as the high priest?

Christianity was fragmented. And Paul advocates that to adopt the Law is to adopt enslavement. That is where Paul's circumcision of the heart (Romans) begins to replace the Law. For Pauline communities it is never covenental nomism, but Spirit and Grace.

 

[kevinlb63]

The truth is kevinlb63 is absolutely right. So many people use the Letters of the Apostles as the only true answer. The truth is given to us in them because Jesus commanded the disciples to teach the world as he taught them. They did, sorry Iceman. Although it was awkwardly posted in the Gospel Matthew quotes Jesus in 5:19-20. What else did Jesus teach. Look at John 15:8-11.

The Gal 5:1-3 you are so familiar with does have its root in the Gospel, again more quotes from Jesus, as he commanded. In Matthew 15:1-20, a condemnation of the traditions man made for religion sake diverting the congregation from God. Jesus was just as brutal on his own Jewish faith. Matthew 16:5-12. The Law of circumcision was one such law that does not lead to the Lord. The Judaizers were twisting Jesus' teachings confusing the message to the Galatians, This letter was to set-straight the record. In Galatians 1:6-10. Paul makes sure it is understood that there is only one Gospel , that is the 1st 4 books of the New Testament which again brings us to John 15:10.

Everything that is taught via the letters all have their roots in the Gospel, Jesus' own teaching. Christians are NOT fragmented and disorganized, and most of all NOT lawless

thank god for someone like you PAGANMYSTIC you have been in the word of god!!! the first one i have seen on this hole site!!! jesus said leave the law in place!!! and! he said till the end!!!!

 

[kevinlb63]

No I'm afraid I'm going to call that one out.

the big problem with your Logic is that Paul never actually knew Jesus. He is the aborted apostle.

You are still running into the same problem. The fact that Paul and the Apostles at Jerusalem did not get on is no secret.

You've neglected one key aspect of Paul by claiming "some of this Law and some of that" and that is Paul writes "If you follow ONE Law you are cursed to follow ALL Law."

Now I agree that Galatians is written to set the record straight about Law observance. The thing is though the Galatian church was founded without ANY Law. It was a completely Gentile church. To now say that some Law must be added to that community is to say the grace of Christ was inadequate.

When Paul says only one Gospel he means Law-free or Law-abiding. There are no two ways about it. You cannot pick and choose to follow some Law, or all. Law is NOT an act of morality or a code of behaviour. It is a covenental response to God. So if you burden yourself with one Law, you must adopt the yoke of all of it. That's clear in not only Paul, but in the OT as well.

I certainly agree that the epistles are rooted in the Gospel. But Christian were fragmented...why do you think the argument over the Judaisers and circumcision? Why the problems in Jerusalem? Why didn't James help Paul to be released in Jerusalem when he had as much power as the high priest?

Christianity was fragmented. And Paul advocates that to adopt the Law is to adopt enslavement. That is where Paul's circumcision of the heart (Romans) begins to replace the Law. For Pauline communities it is never covenental nomism, but Spirit and Grace.

AND SENCE YOU BROUGHT IT UP YES WE ARE TO GO TO CHURCH ON SATURDAY! JUST LIKE THE JEWS BUT WE GO ON THE POPES SABBATH WITCH HE CHANGED. AND I AM NOT A 7TH DAY ADVANTIST! IT IS A HISTORICAL FACT! in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."
The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd ed.
SO GO AHEAD A WORSHIP THE POPES SABBATH.

 

[kevinlb63]

Jesus isn't a liar. But you don't understand what those scriptures mean. Are we supposed to go back to the Old Covenant that is buried? If you think you need to be under the Law then you have certainly cheapened grace and what Jesus did at the Cross. You seem to forget that when Jesus walked, He was operating and living under the Old Covenant. You need to look at the context in which He made those statements. He was not operating under the New Covenant. Jesus did not make those statements after the New Covenant was established. It was BEFORE. Its all about context and dividing between both of the covenants.

AND I KNOW WHAT THE scripture MEANS IT MEANS WHAT IS SAYS AND SAYS WHAT IT MEANS...........................................

 

[jiggyfly]

AND I KNOW WHAT THE scripture MEANS IT MEANS WHAT IS SAYS AND SAYS WHAT IT MEANS...........................................

Read the forum rules before you post again Kevin, especially the part about caps.

 

[jiggyfly]

"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these requirements: You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or eating the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell." Acts 15:28&29

 

[The Robster]

AND I KNOW WHAT THE scripture MEANS IT MEANS WHAT IS SAYS AND SAYS WHAT IT MEANS...........................................

If you really did brother, then you wouldn't be telling Christians to trade the New Covenant for the old one. Jesus came to bring a New and Better Covenant. Grace and Law are two different things. You may want to spend some time in the area of dividing between both covenants. It will be hazardous to your health to go back under law and expose yourself to all the curses of the Law.

 

[RJ]

so what you are saying is jesus is a lair!!!!!!!!!!
these are quotes from jesus!!!!!!!!!
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>17</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>18</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>For verily I say unto you,{ Till heaven and earth pass}, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law}, till all be fulfilled.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>19</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Whosoever therefore shall { break one of these least commandments}, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven}}: but whosoever shall do and {{ teach them }}, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill the Law.

No, Jesus is not a liar; to say such a thing is terrible but I guess it is allowed as long as don't blasphemy the Holy Spirit.

Hi Kevin!
Yes, one of the things that Jesus came to do was to fulfill the law, not only that he was the embodiment of the law. What needs to be understood is that the Law is more than say, just the Ten Commandments; there was many more of God's commandments than just those ten, it was in fact much more. Since it was entirely under the Law, the entire Old Testament was the law.

In fact, what a lot of people do know was that the Old Testament requirements and laws was carried into the New Testament. The beginning parts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all under the Laws of the Old Testament. In fact, Jesus was a staunch supporter of the Law and did it perfectly. When Jesus was with the Disciples and up to his death, again, he was the embodiment of the Law; not only did he know the Law he was the greatest advocate of it and no one performed it better. Not until the millisecond that Jesus died was the Veil of the temple torn and the Old Covenant Law was instantaneously made null and void and the New Covenant of Grace ushered in.

When Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, he meant to accomplish all of the prophecies the Old Testament Law, including bringing in the New Covenant of Grace.

For verily I say unto you,{ Till heaven and earth pass}, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law}, till all be fulfilled.
Yes, yes , yes, so true. When Jesus said that not one little part of the Law would pass until his return and the old heaven and old earth will pass.
What is so critical to understand here is that the New Covenant of Love and Grace is still part of the Law, it was born through prophecy in the Old Law and it is the fulfillment of the Law in the New. Not the Law of Sacrifices and other requirements to have your sin covered over until the next years Atonement but, God's new requirement, the requirement of faith in Grace and not of your works.

Whosoever therefore shall { break one of these least commandments}, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven}}: but whosoever shall do and {{ teach them }}, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven
Again, This was before Jesus died and ushered in the New Covenant of Grace and therefore he would not or could not
say anything against the Law because they were all under the Law and He was a staunch supporter of his Father's law. We are no longer under the Law he was describing then!!

 

[JDFree]

So, Jesus was clear that not even a jot or tittle of the law etc. But the Jewish law is 10 Commandments, plus something like 647 Ordinances given directly by God! I'd guess there are few people alive if any that even have it all memorized, let alone that keep them.

There's another problem with the legalist Christian viewpoint. Jesus and his apostles regularly BROKE THE LAW! That's one of the main arguments used by the Pharisees for wanting to kill them all, especially Jesus: LAWBREAKERS!

That's pretty hard to explain then, within the context of all Christians being required to keep the Law. Jesus did not. I prefer to follow Jesus to following the Law.

 

[The Robster]

So, Jesus was clear that not even a jot or tittle of the law etc. But the Jewish law is 10 Commandments, plus something like 647 Ordinances given directly by God! I'd guess there are few people alive if any that even have it all memorized, let alone that keep them.

There's another problem with the legalist Christian viewpoint. Jesus and his apostles regularly BROKE THE LAW! That's one of the main arguments used by the Pharisees for wanting to kill them all, especially Jesus: LAWBREAKERS!

That's pretty hard to explain then, within the context of all Christians being required to keep the Law. Jesus did not. I prefer to follow Jesus to following the Law.

I'll tell you if said Christians want to go back under Law, then they better be consistent. And I'm talking about they better make sure they bring the bulls, rams, goats, lambs, etc. to sacrifice at their local church. And start carrying a duffle bag full of stones to launch at Christians you catch sinning. :laugh:

 

[jiggyfly]

I'll tell you if said Christians want to go back under Law, then they better be consistent. And I'm talking about they better make sure they bring the bulls, rams, goats, lambs, etc. to sacrifice at their local church. And start carrying a duffle bag full of stones to launch at Christians you catch sinning. :laugh:

Very true Robster but don't leave out tithing.:shock:

 

[RJ]

So, Jesus was clear that not even a jot or tittle of the law etc. But the Jewish law is 10 Commandments, plus something like 647 Ordinances given directly by God! I'd guess there are few people alive if any that even have it all memorized, let alone that keep them.

There's another problem with the legalist Christian viewpoint. Jesus and his apostles regularly BROKE THE LAW! That's one of the main arguments used by the Pharisees for wanting to kill them all, especially Jesus: LAWBREAKERS!

That's pretty hard to explain then, within the context of all Christians being required to keep the Law. Jesus did not. I prefer to follow Jesus to following the Law.

The Apostles yes but Jesus was the embodiment of the Law and did all the Commandments and ordinances of his Father perfectly! The New Covenant had not been established yet and Jesus could do no less!

The very millisecond that Jesus died, the 60 ft. tall Veil in the Temple that separated all(except the High Levitical Priest) from the "Holy of Holies", signifying that God no longer was present there.
At this very moment Jesus Christ ushered in his Fathers's new command, the prophecies of old, that of salvation through Faith in Grace, and Jesus was no longer under the Old Testament Law! And, the "Holy of Holies" is inside us and that is were God now resides!

Jesus, with his death, burial and resurrection fulfilled the Law through these prophecies that were born from the Law and because he did this, he and we are no longer under the Law.

 

[JDFree]

If one understands the depths of Levitical Law and the later iterations poured in by the Pharisees, Saducees and Sanhedrin, as their official 'interpretation' of the Law, Jesus was a criminal. He regularly broke their Law and even in a manner we'd call 'in your face'!

At John 5:1-18 on a sabbath Feast day Jesus healed the man by the pool, and then commanded him to take up his bed on the sabbath, fully against the Law, John 5:10. For these acts of lawbreaking the Jews conspired to kill him. Jesus often did many healings on the sabbath, which was forbidden by the intrepretation of Law. He obviously could have done them any time, but intentionally chose sabbath, teaching Mercy over Law. See John 7:21.

Luke 12:10-16 has Jesus healing the woman of an issue of blood, and he's challenged for healing on sabbath by the ruler of the synagogue. In another time he healed a man of the dropsy, on sabbath, and in the house of the Chief Pharisee! Luke 14:1-6

The healing of the blind man by mixing clay with spit was a violation of Laws of Sabbath. It was illegal to spit on the dust of the ground on sabbath because that spit would make a furrow in the dust. The Pharisees decided that was the same as a man that hitched up his oxen and plowed his fields making furrows on sabbath, forbidden under the Law. Jesus knew this well. The Pharisees insisted that a man could only spit on a rock on sabbath, not the dust of earth!

Matthew 12:1-2 Jesus with His disciples went about amidst the corn and took some to eat on sabbath, breaking the law. Following that He went to the temple and healed a man, same sabbath Matthew 12:9-14. Pharisees then took council how they could kill Him for breaking the law! The matter of Jesus going about with his apostles, taking up handfuls of wheat to eat on sabbath was illegal. The Pharisees were horrified! Not only that, He dared to blow off the chaff! Why, it was obvious: this fellow Jesus was not only harvesting, but winnowing on sabbath! CRIMINAL! KILL HIM!

Jesus entirely & completely ignored the ceremonial washings as described in Leviticus, obviously and intentionally right in front of the Pharisees, Luke 11:37-. He did not do the ceremonial washing before meals, against Levitical Law. Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead broke the Law. Anybody who touched a headstone, entered a gravesite or touched a body was unclean, in need of purification and must be ejected from society for a time. But Jesus commanded that the headstone be removed, and the garments of Lazarus be removed, mainly because he was no longer dead! That was against the Law and made all 'unclean'. John 11:39-.

This scourge Jesus DARED to TOUCH a leper! Anyone who touched a leper was declared unclean, and MUST completely depart from society for a day and also perform the proscribed ceremonial washings and wash all their garments, all given in Levitical Law; Jesus did not! In Matthew 15 & Mark 7 Jesus broke the dietary laws, saying no food would make a man unclean.

There's a huge difference between the 10 Commandments & the Levitical Law, and the later interpretations of that. We are not to break ANY of God's Commandments, no dispute there at all. However Jesus tells us He will write the law for us in our hearts and in our minds, indicating that we are to keep the spirit of the law through the continual guidance given by the Holy Spirit and our conscience. So the question becomes, WHICH LAW must one keep?

The Levitical Laws were for Jews, not Gentile Christians. I imagine we're all pretty much in agreement here. I personally count every day as sabbath because Christ is in His rest, and so am I!